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Tige
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Posted - 2003.06.10 16:13:00 -
[1]
Frigates are now for all practical purposes obsolete. I'm fortunate to be a great corp that can keep, if not exceed, the current pace of new ship availiblity. To the smaller corps and freelancers out there it is just a matter of time, a very short period of time, before they either join large corp or quit from being pwned everytime they log on. I'd say 4-6 more weeks max.
The performance gap between Frigates and Cruisers is just too wide. I can understand making BBs the ruler of the stars but there needs to be at least a chance for a well equipped, well trained PC Frigate to tangle with a PC Cruiser. Right now you can give a nOob a cruiser and he will own all Frigates now matter who they are and how they are kitted out.
Using Calderi ships as an example: Should a Merlin take a Osprey or a MOA? No, but against the entry level cruisers they just at least stand a fighting chance.
At this rate of growth the overwhelming amount of players will have 4 Battleships in their hangars by the end of the year if not sooner!!!! What then???
-Tige
Edited by: Tige on 10/06/2003 16:15:29 |
Livak
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Posted - 2003.06.10 16:56:00 -
[2]
Frigates are not obsolete yet. Higher tech level frigates are going to be quite different from what we have now.
Even now the higher level frigates play a role in a cohesive battle strategy.
I wouldn't worry too much about everyone battleships, they are WAY too expensive for a freelancer to pickup without a massive expenditure of energy and time. Just building a battleship would take a corporation several days to get the minerals.
Crusiers are pretty much the last solo ship you can really use effectivly. Battleships require a support group for rearming and coverage. The massive guns they have don't work well at close range, and their cargo holds are too small to even carry a single reload.
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.10 16:58:00 -
[3]
You underestimate the capability of frigates.
One word: ECM.
And no frigate should be able to take on a cruiser one on one given equally skilled players. Once you have two frigates, it isn't that hard. (One ECM frig, one kitted out for damage.)
That said, there is too much of a performance/cost gap. You go from a top-end frigate costing 150k in minerals to produce to an entry-level cruiser at 1.5mill worth of minerals or so. There need to be ships in the gap in between.
Edited by: BSOD on 10/06/2003 16:58:55
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Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Wotok
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Posted - 2003.06.10 17:00:00 -
[4]
You forgot something.
At some point (I would think starting in 2 or 4 months) there will be a constant supply of new blueprints. This includes new ships (perhaps even new ship classes some time) and new equipment.
What does this mean? Your ships will outdate!!!
If you don't buy a whole NEW cruiser in some months and also new equipment, your old cruiser will have worse stats than my all-new frigate.
This means also, that not everyone will bee able to afford an ³ber-battleship. If you have to work several months for it, you just can't stay at the top-of-the-art level. (Don't forget: it's not only the ship, but also the appropriate equipment)
On the other hand it's a possibility for some solo player / small corps to buy some outdated old battleships...
I find some more exciting new aspects of this game every time I think about it. :))))
Edited by: Wotok on 10/06/2003 17:04:26
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Wotok has no brain! |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.10 17:14:00 -
[5]
Ever tried hitting small ships with big guns?
Its almost impossible for very large cruiser weapons. Try battleship weapons. It will be easier to shot the hair of a flea on 500m with a pistol.
Edited by: Shintai on 10/06/2003 17:14:01
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.10 17:32:00 -
[6]
Shintai - yes, its a piece of cake.
Killing frigates with cruiser guns is easy, very very very very easy until the frigate is effectively "under your guns" at about <2km.
Whereupon it becomes just easy.
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Alexis Machine
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Posted - 2003.06.10 17:36:00 -
[7]
A frigate can go toe to toe with a cheap cruiser.
It'll take some damage, sure.. serious damage. But it's been done.
----------------sig----------------------------
Dtai'kai'-dte sa-de nau'gkon dtain'aun bpi-de.
if you don't wake up, i'll have to stop kissing you. all that flailing has made you sleepy. you rest while i untie you. stay here until they find you. My hand made mannequin. i won't let them get you. they'll know you're mine by the fingerprints on your throat. isn't she lovely? isn't she wonderful? like the *****s that we are, swatting flies from the wounds we design. |
Costa
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Posted - 2003.06.10 17:54:00 -
[8]
Tige has some very very valid points.
Most everything in this game, revolves around "Getting a bigger and better ship", as such, Frigates become rather useless after a couple days in the game.
Design flaw, if you ask me. Possibly caused by too dramatic of a disparity amoung the ship types, forcing everyone down the same path.
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MindBender
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Posted - 2003.06.10 18:03:00 -
[9]
I sat and watched 1 of our corp members kill 3 NPC cruisers in his kestral before the 4th and 5th cruiser finished him off. Poor guy ran out of defender missles. However this goes to show that a properly loaded frigate CAN take out a Cruiser. I know PC cruisers are harder to kill than NPC but it CAN be done even by a solo frigate.
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Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.10 18:55:00 -
[10]
Also remember that currently the top frigate cost 1/50 of a top cruiser. Battleships will most likely be 20x more expensive that cruiser.
You have 2-3 targettime in a frig, 5-6sec in a cruiser and 8+ sec in a battleship.
Now clone are in, its not that dangerous to get killed before you need really expensive clones.
So instead of potentionally waste your 12mio topcruisers+guns. You and your corp can now risk 20-30 frigates+guns. You just have to destroy one cruiser to win the economic battle. And if you win that. Then you won the main battle too.
4 cruisers can kill a battleship without loss 50mio vs 200mio. 30 frigates can do the same.
10mio beats 200mio. I know you need manpower for this. And there will be no podkill. Since it takes too long to retarget a pod in a big ship and you more or less instantwarps away in a pod.
It takes 3 days to build a battleship. How long does it take to build the 30 frigates? ;)
If I go with 3 250mm prototype rails. I can destroy a heavy frigate in 6-7sec on 10-40km range. I need maybe 10-12 on 5-10km. And 20-30sec on 0-2km.
So yes, I think frigates will keep their life. It¦s too expensive for both parties to waste 100-400mio in a medium corp war. Or 50-100mio in a small corp war.
Frigates will do when the wallet hurts ;)
Frigates can hit permant for 80 per gun
Edited by: Shintai on 10/06/2003 19:01:08
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Alexander Drake
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Posted - 2003.06.10 20:26:00 -
[11]
A better point to make would be; What is the proper amount of time to leave between technology transfers in-game so that the existing ceiling of ship-technology is not reached by a majority of players and, additionally, that the field of combat does not stagnate too much in the off-period between new designs?
The above question merely speculates that, given an irregular influx of new players and corporations, a majority of pre-existing corps (lets assume those that formed at the beginning of Live until the present) have achieved, or are in the process of achieving, the highest level ship-technology available at the point in time the next level is made public.
I would hope that instead they leave a padding af approximately 1-2 levels of technology in-game ABOVE what players should reasonably be able to aquire at any given time, that way when some begin to reach it, it can be used as a marker by which they can know when it is proper to inject new tech.
I don't like the system now whereby a corporation can actually 'hit' the technological ceiling (case-in-point; M0o smashed by concord BBs when the public tech-level resides at cruiser-strength). We know there will always be technological advances, but knowing exactly whats allowed at any given time (or even reaching that point, as we have) just FEELS limiting, no matter how you slice it.
Edited by: Alexander Drake on 10/06/2003 21:12:53
-=-------------------------------------------=-
"Violence is not the answer, it is the question. YES is the answer."
::CEO/Founder:: -=Draconis Heavy Industries=- |
Demangel
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Posted - 2003.06.10 20:30:00 -
[12]
Mind bender Last time I checked NPC Anythings are only very BASICALLY outfitted.
I remember how I could take out 6+ Serpentis Pirates who where in Atrons with my one atron, and that was with one pulse laser...
A player Cruiser will more than likely have a weapon in every turret slot, some cool hardware in the medium slots, and god knows what else in the low slots...
Trust me, 4-5 frigate size 125mm Hybrids (or god forbid 4-5 250MM light artillary projectiles) will tear you apart pretty fast if your in a frigate. Since you can currently stack damage mods for example a 250MM arty gun for the frigate can do around 50HP of damage or more every 3 seconds if mounted on the right ships! That kind of damage is sick enough on a rifter with it's low HP and shields, but imagine if it was on a cruiser...
The door DOES swing both ways though.
However I DO think CCP needs to implement frigates that bridge the gap between frigates and cruisers.
Just like BSOD said in his post above, there is a rediculous price and value gap between the top most frigates (even at NPC prices) and even the lowest end cruisers.
To SOME extent I am POSITIVE that when we start seeing MKI-MKV versions of frigates that gap will become smaller.
However I am also hoping for a few new ship classes, and types.
A few more frigate styles would be nice for example.
And maybe a class between frigate and cruiser would be a good option?
In the end however so LONG as frigates remain useful on the battlefield (they can be very useful infact depending on a few things), I won't complain.
For example EW is an almost Ideal role for many Frigates.
In the end remember how ships are designed to work. Frigates are meant to support the larger vessles and keep them alive longer, they are cheaper and thus more expendable, but you'll need more people to fly them all.
Anyway I think it's more or less a matter of tweaking, not total restructuring.
I would like to see Frigates be a little bit more potent Versus cruisers, but not so much so that buying a low end cruiser is pointless...
Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you
Demangel > Dude... I would call..
Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet.
Galaxion > Just a bit.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.06.10 21:02:00 -
[13]
CCP nerfed all Caldari cruisers. I thought the Caldari race were s'posed to be the most powerful when it comes to military weaponry?
So why did they ruin the Moa by taking away slots and reducing powergrid?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.10 21:09:00 -
[14]
Joshua Calvert, what are you talking about?
The MOA is the best cruiser...maybe Maller can get close. MOA got good of everything. And 4 med slots ;)
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.06.10 21:33:00 -
[15]
Frigates aren¦t obsolete in any way. You aren¦t supposed to stand a real chance fighting a cruiser in a frig.
Take 4 to 5 Frigs and the situation looks a whole lot different. Add skilled pilots with ECM and other methods of defence and that cruiser has a real problem. Add a missile-frigate and the cruiser will be ripped apart as if he was going against a battleship.
It¦s all a matter of organization. If you expect ONE frigate to stand a chance against a cruiser then you haven¦t really understood the concept of fighting in EvE IMO. No offence of course :)
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 10/06/2003 21:33:49
Mai's Idealog |
Alexander Drake
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Posted - 2003.06.10 21:36:00 -
[16]
I think the point is that; While a frigate shouldn't be able to take a cruiser in a one on one fight, a cruiser SHOULD have difficulty FORCING a frigate into such a fight in the first place. In this game, speed, size, and maneuverability seem to mean jack-diddly, and with the rampant use of EW, it makes frigates (and particulalry lone frigates) sitting ducks for cruisers, rather than a cruiser-pilot's worst nightmare.
-=-------------------------------------------=-
"Violence is not the answer, it is the question. YES is the answer."
::CEO/Founder:: -=Draconis Heavy Industries=- |
Ehxo
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Posted - 2003.06.10 22:12:00 -
[17]
This is the most funny thing I've heard.
Frigates are for sure not a match against a cruiser if put in a 1 vs 1 situation. BUT... in a formation with other cruisers, they can be VERY usefull. Frigates a VERY fast, they are agile, and they can still carry quite a punch if properly fitted. I myself can do an average of 50-76 points of damage per shot, every second using 3 turrets... so basically, I can do up to 150-228 dmg every 3 seconds in a RIFTER, while going at 495m/sec without an afterburner on, or 600m/sec with it on... I also use rockets which go so fast that they are almost unblockable and refire very fast. Put 3-4 of ships like me together against cruisers, while being escorted by 4 cruisers of my own, and trust me... we can deal a LOT of damage.
The simple reason is that if the enemy targets only the frigates... our cruisers will get them without being shot. If they target only the cruisers, we tickle the enemy until thei die without taking a shot...
either way, in a formation with mixed cruisers and other frigates, we are very much needed.
Oh... ever played Missile Commander with your frigate? (meaning 1-2 frigate ONLY targets torpedoes with its guns and shoot them, saving precious defender missiles?) this is quite usefull in 0.0 belts to help protect the miners.
Frigates are also very good fast courrier ships... With 2 afterburners (the basic ones) I can personally go up to 800m/sec in my Rifter. Try to catch me at a gate! It's not as fast as a MWD, but still fast enough to get some precious distance before getting hit too much and get our of jamming range!
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Guilbert
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Posted - 2003.06.10 23:11:00 -
[18]
Well i confirm that the original topic
the gap between cruisers is really unbareable
ofcourse i dont want one frigate to topple a cruiser
but atleast a coulpe of them
4 or five should be able to..
right now a frigate wont stand a chance a cruiser can wipem with one blow cause of those masses of dmg multipliers *****ble in them..
a lil more balancing into this direction would be fine
i would love to see ppl going out in mixed ship groups where every class has its advantages and dissadvantages..
the uber speed for frigates right now wont help them in no way..
Edited by: Guilbert on 10/06/2003 23:12:34
Mess with the best..
..and die like the rest |
Callas
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Posted - 2003.06.10 23:14:00 -
[19]
> Frigates are now for all practical purposes
> obsolete.
They're useful for combatting other frigates and for recon. Cruisers turn and warp like industrial ships, and frigates are expendable.
They're useful for long distance travel, when you're searching for rare kit. I average about a minute a hop in a Rifter compared to a little over two minutes a hop in a Hoarder. (Both with afterburners for rapid gate approach.)
> The performance gap between Frigates and
> Cruisers is just too wide.
> [snip]
> but there needs to be at least a chance for a
> well equipped, well trained PC Frigate to
> tangle with a PC Cruiser.
It seems to me this cannot be so. A frigate is about 2,000 tons mass. It's light and fast. a cruiser is about 12,000 tons mass. It's fecking *big*.
I find it entirely appropriate that a cruiser decimates frigates, and I would find it entirely inappropriate for a frigate to have a realistic chance of winning such a fight, if the fight were a straight head to head, guns vs armour.
--
Callas
Edited by: Callas on 10/06/2003 23:15:32 |
Wyke DeRainger
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Posted - 2003.06.10 23:28:00 -
[20]
I'm sorry But you have it so wrong there. Frigates are stronger then peopel realise. They just have to be used right and have a well skilled pilot.
Read your real life history and you will see. Many of the principles will apply to Eve too. You have to use them in force, they have to be organized into into groups that work together.
I'm sure that the Captain of the Graff Spei <sp> Or was it the Scharnhost Battleship ( I can never remember which one it was) May well have thought the same when he came face to face with three British cruisers. But that battle was fought to a draw with a very battered battleship haveing to dash into neutral Argentinian waters.
as for grand fleets of battleships, I think not. The Corp I am a member of has had to work bloody hard to get the cruisers we have, and we are far from a small group. I dread to think what the cost in time and resources will be for a battleship.
So ignor Frigates and cruisers at your peril
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Faisal Khan
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Posted - 2003.06.11 00:44:00 -
[21]
Frigates are very effective. They are also cost effective. Using them one on one with a cruiser is admittedly a brave thing to do, but even then it is quite possible for the frigate pilot to be the victor in some situations.
The biggest mistake most players make is thinking that because they are now in a cruiser they are somehow invulnerable to frigates. I read on here about solo miners who spend weeks mining to get their cruiser, so they can go looking for a fight.
They then ***** about the fact that a bunch of frigates has sent them to the scrapheap in short time. They would do better to have actually practiced some PvP in frigates before making such heart- breaking assumptions.
Combat is always a gamble. Fight with what you can afford to lose.
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2003.06.11 04:20:00 -
[22]
A well-equipped frigate can take out a basic cruiser.
Try it. Slap some heavy missiles on your Merlin or Tristan, put some decent weapons on it, and you're ready to do some ehavy damage to a cruiser that isn't ready for you. That's solo.
Now try the same thing with about 4 frigates. Even a -decently- equipped cruiser is going to have a tough time against that many heavy missiles.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Myros Glimmbrand
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Posted - 2003.06.11 04:35:00 -
[23]
Well, heres my take on it.
I have to admit at first I was pretty dissapointed at the seemingly huge jumps between the ship classes but after reading a recent dev interview on eve-i I see there will be various upgrades available for each ship class .. both in terms of design ie blueprints that manufacture improved versions and indivual customization options for already built ships.
Its to bad these things werent in for retail release but such is life for us mmo game lovers.
Another point - as with most games at initial release almost everybody is out trying to be the biggest and badest and be the quickest to be that. But given 6 months there is no reason we wont be seeing light attack skirmishes ... scouting attacks on stations etc, the big ships ARE a huge investment in time, they will not be thrown away lightly ... frigate and cruiser battles I imagine will be far more the norm, with the big guns used for important battles and to protect stations etc
I would like to see clone costs reduced for this reason, I would like to ENCOURAGE people to get out and get into skirmishes ... but nobody likes losing weeks/months of invested time, which I think is one of the major things holding people back atm from actualy getting out and having some fun. Its hard enough work to get the ships and they get blown up entirely to quickly, thats enough imo.
Im looking forward to improved ship designs, Im really looking forward to skirmishes and wars and Im REALLY looking forward to the point when people stop worrying about the precious ships and get out and start raising some hell ;) How quickly we get to that point may be the critical point of success or failure for EVE ..to date it has failed to get people to that point of comfort quickly enough, it has forced to much drudgery on them to get started and so they cant see the fun thats there waiting ... and they dont even HAVE to wait months, with some friends and some well equiped frigates theres nothing stopping us from having a few wars now ;)
My request to CCP - lower clone costs, they dont have to be free but they should be low enough so that the player base will be more eager to get out and enjoy the things that will make EVE great ... and mining ore isnt one of them ;)
Myros
CEO Ganja Co
CEO Ganja Co |
Elithiomel
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Posted - 2003.06.11 06:56:00 -
[24]
All you need to do is look at the required skills for the existing frigates in the game.
The highest skill needed is Frigate lvl3. This leaves plenty more room for heavy frigates to be introduced as time goes by. Also i'm sure i remember somebody (dev or pann maybe) mentioning that frigates that need frigate lvl4 and 5 would be introduced to the game. I think it was in one of the dev chats.
---------------------------------------------
Engineers motto; If it doesn't fit, force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway. |
Xylitol
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Posted - 2003.06.11 06:56:00 -
[25]
I just started playing this game (but played in beta 6). I always considered cruisers to be frigate killers. Battleship to be cruiser killers. And frigates to be nuicanse to battleships which cannot effectively lock on them (I dont know how this is now in game, I never go battleship in Beta).
If game is geared this way, frigates never get "obsolete" as they always is effective some degree against battleships (as they have hard time to get lock on them).
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.06.11 08:55:00 -
[26]
> All you need to do is look at the required
> skills for the existing frigates in the game.
> The highest skill needed is Frigate lvl3. This
> leaves plenty more room for heavy frigates to
> be introduced as time goes by.
A frigate is light and so is fast and maneuverable (like a motorbike - not much ship so the engine is relatively large) but because it is light, it is weakly armoured and weakly shielded.
If a frigate ever got big enough to have a real chance against a cruiser, it would BE a cruiser.
It would have to be sufficiently large to mount the armour and shields needed to win that it would have become slow and unmaneuverable.
Most of the people in this thread, IMO, seem to want to have their cake and eat it.
You cannot have fast, maneuverable AND strong.
Just imagine if you did - what do you have? an uber-ship. All the speed of a frigate, all the firepower and armour of a cruiser.
--
Callas
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Perera
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Posted - 2003.06.11 09:41:00 -
[27]
Well, as in the game, as in real life...
Anyone ever heard of the Battle of the River Plate? As a historial note, during WWII, a German Battleship was hunted, hounded and eventually led to it's self destruction by 3 (yes, just 3) British... Frigates.
The point being, yes, Frigates used in teamwork would be still a strong force. Let's not be surprised that 1v1, there's such a performance gap.
Perera - Corp shrink!
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snotty
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Posted - 2003.06.11 09:48:00 -
[28]
Just look at the stats of the cruiser gunns and the stats of the frigate gunns and see how they can be "exploited".
frigate: better tracking
cruiser: better range.
Oh, an i don't get that hoarder/frigate thing about exploring.
put in a MWD and you go 1200+ in a cruiser, way faster then any frigate
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D'ou
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Posted - 2003.06.11 09:57:00 -
[29]
>"You cannot have fast, maneuverable AND strong.
>
>Just imagine if you did - what do you have? an >uber-ship. All the speed of a frigate, all the >firepower and armour of a cruiser."
And that is what MWD's are for. Just try this. Get your cruiser up to full speed in one direction, turn that camera around to look behind you, double-click, and hit that MWD. You'll be amazed at the agility it provides when used right, not to mention speed and acceleration. IMO this is a sort of balance problem, especially with cruisers like the MOA with 4 mid slots, plenty to outfit a MWD and whatever else you might want. Everyone smart is training up to use the MWD on cruisers, thereby eleminating the speed and agility advantage frigates are supposed to have. With MWDs, frigates will never have a chance of outrunning cruisers, not to mention keeping up with them. Ever heard of kite tactics? And what happens when we get battleships running around with 2 MWDs equipped going 5km/s and not having to worry about their capacitor. I did it in beta. So much for slow moving battleships. |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.11 10:24:00 -
[30]
MWD drives are a problem for the whole game atm.
Afterburners are close by aswell.
They add a too high amount and can be stacked.
Even in a Thorax I can fly 11.6km/sec with 2 MWDs. Or easy 492m/s with 2 AFs.
If I had a MOA I would could do alot more.
Drones are 400-650m/s and missiles/torps 400-1000m/s.
So unless it gets balanced and maybe use 1 max of same. Then drones and missiles will be PvE only. Or used against the firsttimer person or one that haven¦t got MWD skill yet.
So unless some balance are made. Then the standard outfit will be MWD+something. Maybe MWD+MWD+somthing. And worst situation you can end in, is a standoff with abit of shieldloss.
Even normal people with MWD have no problem running through the mOo blockades. Tho mOo does more damage than any others and know how to kill better than any.
That should clearly state the problem ;)
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
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