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Frigates obsolete in first month. Two months for Cruisres?

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Tige	Posted - 2003.06.10 16:13:00 - [1] Frigates are now for all practical purposes obsolete. I'm fortunate to be a great corp that can keep, if not exceed, the current pace of new ship availiblity. To the smaller corps and freelancers out there it is just a matter of time, a very short period of time, before they either join large corp or quit from being pwned everytime they log on. I'd say 4-6 more weeks max. The performance gap between Frigates and Cruisers is just too wide. I can understand making BBs the ruler of the stars but there needs to be at least a chance for a well equipped, well trained PC Frigate to tangle with a PC Cruiser. Right now you can give a nOob a cruiser and he will own all Frigates now matter who they are and how they are kitted out. Using Calderi ships as an example: Should a Merlin take a Osprey or a MOA? No, but against the entry level cruisers they just at least stand a fighting chance. *At this rate of growth the overwhelming amount of players will have 4 Battleships in their hangars by the end of the year if not sooner!!!! What then???* -Tige Edited by: Tige on 10/06/2003 16:15:29
Livak	Posted - 2003.06.10 16:56:00 - [2] Frigates are not obsolete yet. Higher tech level frigates are going to be quite different from what we have now. Even now the higher level frigates play a role in a cohesive battle strategy. I wouldn't worry too much about everyone battleships, they are WAY too expensive for a freelancer to pickup without a massive expenditure of energy and time. Just building a battleship would take a corporation several days to get the minerals. Crusiers are pretty much the last solo ship you can really use effectivly. Battleships require a support group for rearming and coverage. The massive guns they have don't work well at close range, and their cargo holds are too small to even carry a single reload.
BSOD	Posted - 2003.06.10 16:58:00 - [3] You underestimate the capability of frigates. One word: ECM. And no frigate should be able to take on a cruiser one on one given equally skilled players. Once you have two frigates, it isn't that hard. (One ECM frig, one kitted out for damage.) That said, there is too much of a performance/cost gap. You go from a top-end frigate costing 150k in minerals to produce to an entry-level cruiser at 1.5mill worth of minerals or so. There need to be ships in the gap in between. Edited by: BSOD on 10/06/2003 16:58:55 ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises
Wotok	Posted - 2003.06.10 17:00:00 - [4] You forgot something. At some point (I would think starting in 2 or 4 months) there will be a constant supply of new blueprints. This includes new ships (perhaps even new ship classes some time) and new equipment. What does this mean? Your ships will outdate!!! If you don't buy a whole NEW cruiser in some months and also new equipment, your old cruiser will have worse stats than my all-new frigate. This means also, that not everyone will bee able to afford an ³ber-battleship. If you have to work several months for it, you just can't stay at the top-of-the-art level. (Don't forget: it's not only the ship, but also the appropriate equipment) On the other hand it's a possibility for some solo player / small corps to buy some outdated old battleships... I find some more exciting new aspects of this game every time I think about it. :)))) Edited by: Wotok on 10/06/2003 17:04:26 -- Wotok has no brain!
Shintai	Posted - 2003.06.10 17:14:00 - [5] Ever tried hitting small ships with big guns? Its almost impossible for very large cruiser weapons. Try battleship weapons. It will be easier to shot the hair of a flea on 500m with a pistol. Edited by: Shintai on 10/06/2003 17:14:01 Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.06.10 17:32:00 - [6] Shintai - yes, its a piece of cake. Killing frigates with cruiser guns is easy, very very very very easy until the frigate is effectively "under your guns" at about <2km. Whereupon it becomes just easy.
Alexis Machine	Posted - 2003.06.10 17:36:00 - [7] A frigate can go toe to toe with a cheap cruiser. It'll take some damage, sure.. serious damage. But it's been done. ----------------sig---------------------------- Dtai'kai'-dte sa-de nau'gkon dtain'aun bpi-de. if you don't wake up, i'll have to stop kissing you. all that flailing has made you sleepy. you rest while i untie you. stay here until they find you. My hand made mannequin. i won't let them get you. they'll know you're mine by the fingerprints on your throat. isn't she lovely? isn't she wonderful? like the *****s that we are, swatting flies from the wounds we design.
Costa	Posted - 2003.06.10 17:54:00 - [8] Tige has some very very valid points. Most everything in this game, revolves around "Getting a bigger and better ship", as such, Frigates become rather useless after a couple days in the game. Design flaw, if you ask me. Possibly caused by too dramatic of a disparity amoung the ship types, forcing everyone down the same path.
MindBender	Posted - 2003.06.10 18:03:00 - [9] I sat and watched 1 of our corp members kill 3 NPC cruisers in his kestral before the 4th and 5th cruiser finished him off. Poor guy ran out of defender missles. However this goes to show that a properly loaded frigate CAN take out a Cruiser. I know PC cruisers are harder to kill than NPC but it CAN be done even by a solo frigate.
Shintai	Posted - 2003.06.10 18:55:00 - [10] Also remember that currently the top frigate cost 1/50 of a top cruiser. Battleships will most likely be 20x more expensive that cruiser. You have 2-3 targettime in a frig, 5-6sec in a cruiser and 8+ sec in a battleship. Now clone are in, its not that dangerous to get killed before you need really expensive clones. So instead of potentionally waste your 12mio topcruisers+guns. You and your corp can now risk 20-30 frigates+guns. You just have to destroy one cruiser to win the economic battle. And if you win that. Then you won the main battle too. 4 cruisers can kill a battleship without loss 50mio vs 200mio. 30 frigates can do the same. 10mio beats 200mio. I know you need manpower for this. And there will be no podkill. Since it takes too long to retarget a pod in a big ship and you more or less instantwarps away in a pod. It takes 3 days to build a battleship. How long does it take to build the 30 frigates? ;) If I go with 3 250mm prototype rails. I can destroy a heavy frigate in 6-7sec on 10-40km range. I need maybe 10-12 on 5-10km. And 20-30sec on 0-2km. So yes, I think frigates will keep their life. It¦s too expensive for both parties to waste 100-400mio in a medium corp war. Or 50-100mio in a small corp war. Frigates will do when the wallet hurts ;) Frigates can hit permant for 80 per gun Edited by: Shintai on 10/06/2003 19:01:08 Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Alexander Drake	Posted - 2003.06.10 20:26:00 - [11] A better point to make would be; What is the proper amount of time to leave between technology transfers in-game so that the existing ceiling of ship-technology is not reached by a majority of players and, additionally, that the field of combat does not stagnate too much in the off-period between new designs? The above question merely speculates that, given an irregular influx of new players and corporations, a majority of pre-existing corps (lets assume those that formed at the beginning of Live until the present) have achieved, or are in the process of achieving, the highest level ship-technology available at the point in time the next level is made public. I would hope that instead they leave a padding af approximately 1-2 levels of technology in-game ABOVE what players should reasonably be able to aquire at any given time, that way when some begin to reach it, it can be used as a marker by which they can know when it is proper to inject new tech. I don't like the system now whereby a corporation can actually 'hit' the technological ceiling (case-in-point; M0o smashed by concord BBs when the public tech-level resides at cruiser-strength). We know there will always be technological advances, but knowing exactly whats allowed at any given time (or even reaching that point, as we have) just FEELS limiting, no matter how you slice it. Edited by: Alexander Drake on 10/06/2003 21:12:53 -=-------------------------------------------=- "Violence is not the answer, it is the question. YES is the answer." ::CEO/Founder:: -=Draconis Heavy Industries=-
Demangel	Posted - 2003.06.10 20:30:00 - [12] Mind bender Last time I checked NPC Anythings are only very BASICALLY outfitted. I remember how I could take out 6+ Serpentis Pirates who where in Atrons with my one atron, and that was with one pulse laser... A player Cruiser will more than likely have a weapon in every turret slot, some cool hardware in the medium slots, and god knows what else in the low slots... Trust me, 4-5 frigate size 125mm Hybrids (or god forbid 4-5 250MM light artillary projectiles) will tear you apart pretty fast if your in a frigate. Since you can currently stack damage mods for example a 250MM arty gun for the frigate can do around 50HP of damage or more every 3 seconds if mounted on the right ships! That kind of damage is sick enough on a rifter with it's low HP and shields, but imagine if it was on a cruiser... The door DOES swing both ways though. However I DO think CCP needs to implement frigates that bridge the gap between frigates and cruisers. Just like BSOD said in his post above, there is a rediculous price and value gap between the top most frigates (even at NPC prices) and even the lowest end cruisers. To SOME extent I am POSITIVE that when we start seeing MKI-MKV versions of frigates that gap will become smaller. However I am also hoping for a few new ship classes, and types. A few more frigate styles would be nice for example. And maybe a class between frigate and cruiser would be a good option? In the end however so LONG as frigates remain useful on the battlefield (they can be very useful infact depending on a few things), I won't complain. For example EW is an almost Ideal role for many Frigates. In the end remember how ships are designed to work. Frigates are meant to support the larger vessles and keep them alive longer, they are cheaper and thus more expendable, but you'll need more people to fly them all. Anyway I think it's more or less a matter of tweaking, not total restructuring. I would like to see Frigates be a little bit more potent Versus cruisers, but not so much so that buying a low end cruiser is pointless... Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.06.10 21:02:00 - [13] CCP nerfed all Caldari cruisers. I thought the Caldari race were s'posed to be the most powerful when it comes to military weaponry? So why did they ruin the Moa by taking away slots and reducing powergrid? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Shintai	Posted - 2003.06.10 21:09:00 - [14] Joshua Calvert, what are you talking about? The MOA is the best cruiser...maybe Maller can get close. MOA got good of everything. And 4 med slots ;) Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.06.10 21:33:00 - [15] Frigates aren¦t obsolete in any way. You aren¦t supposed to stand a real chance fighting a cruiser in a frig. Take 4 to 5 Frigs and the situation looks a whole lot different. Add skilled pilots with ECM and other methods of defence and that cruiser has a real problem. Add a missile-frigate and the cruiser will be ripped apart as if he was going against a battleship. It¦s all a matter of organization. If you expect ONE frigate to stand a chance against a cruiser then you haven¦t really understood the concept of fighting in EvE IMO. No offence of course :) Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 10/06/2003 21:33:49 Mai's Idealog
Alexander Drake	Posted - 2003.06.10 21:36:00 - [16] I think the point is that; While a frigate shouldn't be able to take a cruiser in a one on one fight, a cruiser SHOULD have difficulty FORCING a frigate into such a fight in the first place. In this game, speed, size, and maneuverability seem to mean jack-diddly, and with the rampant use of EW, it makes frigates (and particulalry lone frigates) sitting ducks for cruisers, rather than a cruiser-pilot's worst nightmare. -=-------------------------------------------=- "Violence is not the answer, it is the question. YES is the answer." ::CEO/Founder:: -=Draconis Heavy Industries=-
Ehxo	Posted - 2003.06.10 22:12:00 - [17] This is the most funny thing I've heard. Frigates are for sure not a match against a cruiser if put in a 1 vs 1 situation. BUT... in a formation with other cruisers, they can be VERY usefull. Frigates a VERY fast, they are agile, and they can still carry quite a punch if properly fitted. I myself can do an average of 50-76 points of damage per shot, every second using 3 turrets... so basically, I can do up to 150-228 dmg every 3 seconds in a RIFTER, while going at 495m/sec without an afterburner on, or 600m/sec with it on... I also use rockets which go so fast that they are almost unblockable and refire very fast. Put 3-4 of ships like me together against cruisers, while being escorted by 4 cruisers of my own, and trust me... we can deal a LOT of damage. The simple reason is that if the enemy targets only the frigates... our cruisers will get them without being shot. If they target only the cruisers, we tickle the enemy until thei die without taking a shot... either way, in a formation with mixed cruisers and other frigates, we are very much needed. Oh... ever played Missile Commander with your frigate? (meaning 1-2 frigate ONLY targets torpedoes with its guns and shoot them, saving precious defender missiles?) this is quite usefull in 0.0 belts to help protect the miners. Frigates are also very good fast courrier ships... With 2 afterburners (the basic ones) I can personally go up to 800m/sec in my Rifter. Try to catch me at a gate! It's not as fast as a MWD, but still fast enough to get some precious distance before getting hit too much and get our of jamming range!
Guilbert	Posted - 2003.06.10 23:11:00 - [18] Well i confirm that the original topic the gap between cruisers is really unbareable ofcourse i dont want one frigate to topple a cruiser but atleast a coulpe of them 4 or five should be able to.. right now a frigate wont stand a chance a cruiser can wipem with one blow cause of those masses of dmg multipliers ****ble in them.. a lil more balancing into this direction would be fine i would love to see ppl going out in mixed ship groups where every class has its advantages and dissadvantages.. the uber speed for frigates right now wont help them in no way.. Edited by: Guilbert on 10/06/2003 23:12:34* Mess with the best.. ..and die like the rest
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.10 23:14:00 - [19] > Frigates are now for all practical purposes > obsolete. They're useful for combatting other frigates and for recon. Cruisers turn and warp like industrial ships, and frigates are expendable. They're useful for long distance travel, when you're searching for rare kit. I average about a minute a hop in a Rifter compared to a little over two minutes a hop in a Hoarder. (Both with afterburners for rapid gate approach.) > The performance gap between Frigates and > Cruisers is just too wide. > [snip] > but there needs to be at least a chance for a > well equipped, well trained PC Frigate to > tangle with a PC Cruiser. It seems to me this cannot be so. A frigate is about 2,000 tons mass. It's light and fast. a cruiser is about 12,000 tons mass. It's fecking big. I find it entirely appropriate that a cruiser decimates frigates, and I would find it entirely inappropriate for a frigate to have a realistic chance of winning such a fight, if the fight were a straight head to head, guns vs armour. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 10/06/2003 23:15:32
Wyke DeRainger	Posted - 2003.06.10 23:28:00 - [20] I'm sorry But you have it so wrong there. Frigates are stronger then peopel realise. They just have to be used right and have a well skilled pilot. Read your real life history and you will see. Many of the principles will apply to Eve too. You have to use them in force, they have to be organized into into groups that work together. I'm sure that the Captain of the Graff Spei <sp> Or was it the Scharnhost Battleship ( I can never remember which one it was) May well have thought the same when he came face to face with three British cruisers. But that battle was fought to a draw with a very battered battleship haveing to dash into neutral Argentinian waters. as for grand fleets of battleships, I think not. The Corp I am a member of has had to work bloody hard to get the cruisers we have, and we are far from a small group. I dread to think what the cost in time and resources will be for a battleship. So ignor Frigates and cruisers at your peril
Faisal Khan	Posted - 2003.06.11 00:44:00 - [21] Frigates are very effective. They are also cost effective. Using them one on one with a cruiser is admittedly a brave thing to do, but even then it is quite possible for the frigate pilot to be the victor in some situations. The biggest mistake most players make is thinking that because they are now in a cruiser they are somehow invulnerable to frigates. I read on here about solo miners who spend weeks mining to get their cruiser, so they can go looking for a fight. They then ***** about the fact that a bunch of frigates has sent them to the scrapheap in short time. They would do better to have actually practiced some PvP in frigates before making such heart- breaking assumptions. Combat is always a gamble. Fight with what you can afford to lose.
Ronyo Dae'Loki	Posted - 2003.06.11 04:20:00 - [22] A well-equipped frigate can take out a basic cruiser. Try it. Slap some heavy missiles on your Merlin or Tristan, put some decent weapons on it, and you're ready to do some ehavy damage to a cruiser that isn't ready for you. That's solo. Now try the same thing with about 4 frigates. Even a -decently- equipped cruiser is going to have a tough time against that many heavy missiles. ------------- My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants. I <3 ( . Y . )
Myros Glimmbrand	Posted - 2003.06.11 04:35:00 - [23] Well, heres my take on it. I have to admit at first I was pretty dissapointed at the seemingly huge jumps between the ship classes but after reading a recent dev interview on eve-i I see there will be various upgrades available for each ship class .. both in terms of design ie blueprints that manufacture improved versions and indivual customization options for already built ships. Its to bad these things werent in for retail release but such is life for us mmo game lovers. Another point - as with most games at initial release almost everybody is out trying to be the biggest and badest and be the quickest to be that. But given 6 months there is no reason we wont be seeing light attack skirmishes ... scouting attacks on stations etc, the big ships ARE a huge investment in time, they will not be thrown away lightly ... frigate and cruiser battles I imagine will be far more the norm, with the big guns used for important battles and to protect stations etc I would like to see clone costs reduced for this reason, I would like to ENCOURAGE people to get out and get into skirmishes ... but nobody likes losing weeks/months of invested time, which I think is one of the major things holding people back atm from actualy getting out and having some fun. Its hard enough work to get the ships and they get blown up entirely to quickly, thats enough imo. Im looking forward to improved ship designs, Im really looking forward to skirmishes and wars and Im REALLY looking forward to the point when people stop worrying about the precious ships and get out and start raising some hell ;) How quickly we get to that point may be the critical point of success or failure for EVE ..to date it has failed to get people to that point of comfort quickly enough, it has forced to much drudgery on them to get started and so they cant see the fun thats there waiting ... and they dont even HAVE to wait months, with some friends and some well equiped frigates theres nothing stopping us from having a few wars now ;) My request to CCP - lower clone costs, they dont have to be free but they should be low enough so that the player base will be more eager to get out and enjoy the things that will make EVE great ... and mining ore isnt one of them ;) Myros CEO Ganja Co CEO Ganja Co
Elithiomel	Posted - 2003.06.11 06:56:00 - [24] All you need to do is look at the required skills for the existing frigates in the game. The highest skill needed is Frigate lvl3. This leaves plenty more room for heavy frigates to be introduced as time goes by. Also i'm sure i remember somebody (dev or pann maybe) mentioning that frigates that need frigate lvl4 and 5 would be introduced to the game. I think it was in one of the dev chats. --------------------------------------------- Engineers motto; If it doesn't fit, force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway.
Xylitol	Posted - 2003.06.11 06:56:00 - [25] I just started playing this game (but played in beta 6). I always considered cruisers to be frigate killers. Battleship to be cruiser killers. And frigates to be nuicanse to battleships which cannot effectively lock on them (I dont know how this is now in game, I never go battleship in Beta). If game is geared this way, frigates never get "obsolete" as they always is effective some degree against battleships (as they have hard time to get lock on them).
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.11 08:55:00 - [26] > All you need to do is look at the required > skills for the existing frigates in the game. > The highest skill needed is Frigate lvl3. This > leaves plenty more room for heavy frigates to > be introduced as time goes by. A frigate is light and so is fast and maneuverable (like a motorbike - not much ship so the engine is relatively large) but because it is light, it is weakly armoured and weakly shielded. If a frigate ever got big enough to have a real chance against a cruiser, it would BE a cruiser. It would have to be sufficiently large to mount the armour and shields needed to win that it would have become slow and unmaneuverable. Most of the people in this thread, IMO, seem to want to have their cake and eat it. You cannot have fast, maneuverable AND strong. Just imagine if you did - what do you have? an uber-ship. All the speed of a frigate, all the firepower and armour of a cruiser. -- Callas
Perera	Posted - 2003.06.11 09:41:00 - [27] Well, as in the game, as in real life... Anyone ever heard of the Battle of the River Plate? As a historial note, during WWII, a German Battleship was hunted, hounded and eventually led to it's self destruction by 3 (yes, just 3) British... Frigates. The point being, yes, Frigates used in teamwork would be still a strong force. Let's not be surprised that 1v1, there's such a performance gap. Perera - Corp shrink!
snotty	Posted - 2003.06.11 09:48:00 - [28] Just look at the stats of the cruiser gunns and the stats of the frigate gunns and see how they can be "exploited". frigate: better tracking cruiser: better range. Oh, an i don't get that hoarder/frigate thing about exploring. put in a MWD and you go 1200+ in a cruiser, way faster then any frigate
D'ou	Posted - 2003.06.11 09:57:00 - [29] >"You cannot have fast, maneuverable AND strong. > >Just imagine if you did - what do you have? an >uber-ship. All the speed of a frigate, all the >firepower and armour of a cruiser." And that is what MWD's are for. Just try this. Get your cruiser up to full speed in one direction, turn that camera around to look behind you, double-click, and hit that MWD. You'll be amazed at the agility it provides when used right, not to mention speed and acceleration. IMO this is a sort of balance problem, especially with cruisers like the MOA with 4 mid slots, plenty to outfit a MWD and whatever else you might want. Everyone smart is training up to use the MWD on cruisers, thereby eleminating the speed and agility advantage frigates are supposed to have. With MWDs, frigates will never have a chance of outrunning cruisers, not to mention keeping up with them. Ever heard of kite tactics? And what happens when we get battleships running around with 2 MWDs equipped going 5km/s and not having to worry about their capacitor. I did it in beta. So much for slow moving battleships.
Shintai	Posted - 2003.06.11 10:24:00 - [30] MWD drives are a problem for the whole game atm. Afterburners are close by aswell. They add a too high amount and can be stacked. Even in a Thorax I can fly 11.6km/sec with 2 MWDs. Or easy 492m/s with 2 AFs. If I had a MOA I would could do alot more. Drones are 400-650m/s and missiles/torps 400-1000m/s. So unless it gets balanced and maybe use 1 max of same. Then drones and missiles will be PvE only. Or used against the firsttimer person or one that haven¦t got MWD skill yet. So unless some balance are made. Then the standard outfit will be MWD+something. Maybe MWD+MWD+somthing. And worst situation you can end in, is a standoff with abit of shieldloss. Even normal people with MWD have no problem running through the mOo blockades. Tho mOo does more damage than any others and know how to kill better than any. That should clearly state the problem ;) Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Entheos	Posted - 2003.06.11 10:30:00 - [31] First off, I'd like to say to everyone that has engaged in this thread that both your arguments have merit. A lone frigate vs. a cruiser is not supposed to survive the encounter. HOWEVER, a Wolfpack of frigates, with superior base speed and properly kitted out, is a cruiser's worst nightmare. Ever wonder why bees swarm a much larger foe? Not because the bees like all flying in pretty formations, but because they attack "en-masse", coordinating their attacks from all directions to attack and confuse their attacker. YES, some of the bees die in the attack, but it's for the greater good of the hive if they give their lives in it's defense. Several people mentioned modern Naval combat, specifically the Battle of the River Platte, where the German Battleship, Graf Spee, was chased and hounded by 3 British destroyers up and down the South American coast for several days, until the Graf Spee was forced to take refuge in Montevideo harbor to escape. The ship was soon after scuttled in the South Atlantic, after sustaining mortal damage from the Destroyers small guns. This is but one example of the role of Destroyers (Frigates) in naval combat. Most of the major skirmishes in WW II in the Pacific took place between Japanese and American destroyers, due to the shallow nature of the waters in and around most of the major island chains, where maneuverability and speed was of prime importance. In EVE, Frigates, IMHO, will never become obsolete in the hands of a skilled pilot who thinks of all his options prior to entering combat. I have been hunting NPC pirates now since the game opened a month or so ago, and in that time I've learned many valuable lessons. 1. NEVER let Pirate frigates close with you, ESPECIALLY when you are in a cruiser. I have seen more people wade into the middle of 5 Tristans, guns a-blazin' and hell-bent for leather, only to barely stagger away and warp out a flaming mess as all five frigates opened up on them from point blank range with Anode Ion Cannons and AM S ammo...or be sent home in their pod. 2. SPEED IS LIFE. IMHO, Anyone who does not have the skill High Speed Maneuvering trained and has a MWD installed on their cruiser has NO BUSINESS BEING IN A CRUISER! Might as well start a conversation with a member of your local PC-run Pirate Corp and say "Here's 12 Million ISKs. I was going to purchase a cruiser with this money, but I don't have a Microwarp drive installed on my ship. You'd be better off holding it for me anyway." Want to make Corps like M0O madder than hell? Run a few of their blockades. I mean take a vector straight through a pack of them and just as they get a lock on you, jump out. then send them a letter telling them how nifty all the cans around the jumpgate looked. Even send them a screenshot of the event if you have time. And start your MWD a few seconds prior to coming out of warp, so that you come out of warp at full speed, and not at your base speed and then have to accellerate from there. In the time that it would take you to accellerate to blockade-running speed, they'll have locked on, propulsion jammed your ship, and opened fire with those Heavy Modulated lasers with Multi crystals and multiple stamped heat sinks they throw on their Mallers and reduce you to scrap.... 3. GANGS ARE GOOD: Try never to travel anywhere alone. This is a good Axiom to follow no matter what you're flying. there are safety in numbers...even if it's for the selfish region that you may not be the first one targeted, and have a chance to survive. But the more obvious one is that Pirates are, by nature, schoolyard bullies that will prey on the weak and those who travel alone. Travel in a pack, and they will think twice about attacking you..... Take what you want from this...I've probably digressed from the crux of this topic, but hell, it's 6 AM, and I've been up all night. See you in-game. www.hadean.org Captain Mikhail "Entheos" Rostakovich CO, Special Operations
Game	Posted - 2003.06.11 11:01:00 - [32] Good post there. Lists what i would have said almost to the letter. Frigates will evolve with the game. As people realise what Frigates are good for, so will (hopefully) the frigates evolve to match those qualities, and improve the frigates capability. One scenario i would suggest looking at is as follows: 2 Frigs and a Cruiser attack another well equipped cruiser. Who will the lone cruiser hit first? Surely the other cruiser, (s)he'd be idiotic not to. Meanwhile, the two small frigates are working their nasty way into the battle. One maybe using Electronic Warfare on the Cruiser to prevent movement and warping. Making him a sitting duck for the Kestrel (frig) to hit him with 4 Missiles (of varying types) at once. The alternative is that the Cruiser pilot realises this strategy and thinks, i'll take out the Frigates first so i can run when my shield is low. Bad mistake, you're already dead. Too busy targetting those nifty frigates, you didn't see the cruise missiles/torpedoes coming in at your bow. If you had been watching the cruiser you could have taken out those missiles, but now you're dead. OK, this scenario is very 1 or the other, and i agree that there are varying tactics. But please don't assume that because of the difference in size frigates aren't useful in a dogfight. Afterall, Lancasters & B-17's always had a fighter escort as far as they could during WWII.
ABNTanker	Posted - 2003.06.11 11:34:00 - [33] The Graf Spee was a pocket battleship comparable to a heavy cruiser in size and armament. There were 3 allied cruisers guarding the harbour when it was scuttled and here is the link. http://www.ocean98.org/spee.htm
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.11 13:20:00 - [34] > Anyone ever heard of the Battle of the River > Plate? Indeed I have; I have read the military history of WW2 for over twenty years. > As a historial note, during WWII, a German > Battleship was hunted, hounded and eventually > led to it's self destruction by 3 (yes, just > 3) British... Frigates. This statement is materially misleading. The Graf Spee was a superb design; big guns and fast. It managed this by cutting back on armour. The design goal was commerce raiding. The Spee was intended to be able to run from anything that could outshoot it, and kill anything it couldn't run from. It wasn't a battleship by any means. The Spee had been at sea for a month or so, raiding all over the place. The British had set up a number of squadrons, each of which was sufficiently strong to catch and kill the Spee should they find her. The four ships in the British squadron that found the Spee were two 8 inch cruisers and two 6 inch cruisers. Unfortunately, at the time of interception, only one of the 8 inch cruisers was on hand. For comparason, the Spee had 11 inch guns and more or less the same speed as the cruisers, but only about the same armour as the 8 inch cruiser. After quite a long battle, the Exeter (the 8 inch cruiser on the scene) was hammered and pulled out, while the two 6 inch cruisers were more or less in one piece. The Spee was in pretty good shape - some hits, nothing vital. However, her commander was not; he was rattled and put in to Montevideo (neutral port) for repairs. The rules of war said he could only stay in port for I think it was 48 hours. During that time, the extra 8 inch cruiser (the Cumblerand) arrives. The British however put about rumours that there are major units waiting off shore - including the Ark Royal. The captain of the Spee, Langsdorff, set sail after 48 hours (having secretly placed most of his crew on a German merchantman in the harbour) and scuttled the ship. It is very likely he could have fought his way out to safety. However, psychologically, Langsdorff didn't measure up to the strains of combat. The actual sequence of events does not back up the assertation made in the post that three frigates were able to take a cruiser. -- Callas
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.11 13:26:00 - [35] > Several people mentioned modern Naval combat, > specifically the Battle of the River Platte, > where the German Battleship, Graf Spee, Not battleship, commerce raider... > was chased and hounded by 3 British destroyers Two big cruisers and two normal cruisers... > up and down the South American coast for > several days, Incorrect. Once the British squadron found the Spee, they engaged. They actually were very lucky; the steamed to the Platte and almost immediately bumped into the Spee. > The ship was soon after scuttled in the South > Atlantic, after sustaining mortal damage from > the Destroyers small guns. This is absolutely and totally incorrect. The Spee was sea worthy and combat worthy when she left harbour. The British ships hadn't done very much damage. -- Callas
Alyssa	Posted - 2003.06.11 13:47:00 - [36] Hmm. I'd love to see some new classes of ships. A destroyer perhaps, between the frigate an cruiser. And a battlecruiser between cruiser an battleship.
Entheos	Posted - 2003.06.11 14:08:00 - [37] OK...so I'm not a history major...I'm a Biology Major/Finance Minor/network engineer. Still, there's lessons to be learned from history, lest it be repeated. From now on, I promise to stick to the birds and the bees, and leave the naval history to you Grognards out there. Please forgive my most egregious oversights in my previous post. Those responsible for supplying me with the information about naval history have been sacked.... Mind you...Moose bites can be pretty nasty... ;) www.hadean.org Captain Mikhail "Entheos" Rostakovich CO, Special Operations
Karmic	Posted - 2003.06.11 14:08:00 - [38] I would say that all those people comparing a frigate in a head to head fight with a cruiser are missing one vital point - Basic cruiser - 5 mill give or take no eq Totr Frigate - .4 mill give or take no eq so thats about 12 frigates to one cruiser and for one of the top of the range cruisers even more........ 12 frigates v 1 cruiser..... bye bye mr cruiser The only problem would be getting enough pilots willing to take on cruisers in frigates. heheh I know of a merlin who totalled a Vexor all by himself :) heheheh 2 launchers with heavies & torps at close close range :) it was a bit of a suprise. - - - - - - - - -
RAPID	Posted - 2003.06.11 17:02:00 - [39] a top level frigate costs 150k minerals, a basic cruiser 1.7m (and 500k for skills and 1-2 days learning em) - so yes its a huge jump but in terms of cost effectiveness the winner's the frigate by a clear margin - it's cost effectiveness is unparalled - look at the damage a rifter or kestrel can put out - imagine 10 of them vs a cruiser... ok so the cruiser gets MWD - but he'd need it!
Slithereen	Posted - 2003.06.12 06:40:00 - [40] The Battle of River Plate wasn't really a good example. That was actually a German pocket battleship vs a British Heavy Cruiser and two light cruisers. The total tonnage of the British side outweighted the Germans. A much better example is the Battle of Okinawa, where the might Yamato was sunk by a swarm of bombers. The analogy is appropriate---to take out the cruisers, the little guys are going to have to equip with missiles and torpedoes. Yes we need a class between frigates and cruisers. In the navies of the world, we usually call these ships destroyers. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Slithereen	Posted - 2003.06.12 06:49:00 - [41] By the way, the Yamato was the biggest battleship of World War II. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Axelay	Posted - 2003.06.12 07:16:00 - [42] That's not a very good example. The only reason the Yamato was able to be destroyed by a bomber is because the ship was not finished. They ran out of metal and had to make part of the deck out of wood. The shells of the allied ships were literally BOUNCING off of the Yamato. _____ m0o
Molly	Posted - 2003.06.12 07:22:00 - [43] Hi, he is comparing ships with airplanes. That's why it is not a good comparison/example. Bad know-it-all you are :P. Bye... Edited by: Molly on 12/06/2003 07:24:24 --- "Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so? Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor? Molly > lol Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships"
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.12 08:12:00 - [44] Quote: A much better example is the Battle of Okinawa, where the might Yamato was sunk by a swarm of bombers. The analogy is appropriate---to take out the cruisers, the little guys are going to have to equip with missiles and torpedoes. The advent of carrier born air power rendered conventional navel combat units (e.g. gun bearing platforms) almost obsolete; they were good for two things - protecting carriers with anti-aircraft fire and shelling shore installations. An aircraft is fantastially cheap compared to a ship - far more so than a frigate is to a cruiser in Eve. Morevoer, the bomb or torpedo an aircraft carries has one hell of a punch; much more so than say a torpedo in Eve. (Anyways, in Eve, frigates lack the grid to mount the H-50 launcher necessary for a torpedo - the best they can manage is a heavy missile, which is only 150 damage.) Aircraft in WW2 were quite hard to shoot down - very fast, very small and maneuvering of course in three dimensions. Major ships OTOH were extremely slow, turned slowly and were very large. Aircraft in WW2 are like frigates in Eve except times ten; ten times cheaper, ten times harder to hit, ten times much punch. Battleships in WW2 are like cruisers in Eve except ten times slower and ten times less able to hit frigates. The difference between the two are so much much greater than the difference between a frigate and a cruiser in Eve that I find it to be a low-yield comparison. In comparing an Eve cruiser to a frigate, I think more in terms of comparing one navel unit to another navel unit, because the cruiser and frigate are identical in type (they move and fight in the same way), they differ only in magnitude (one is faster, one has more punch, etc). Comparing to an aircraft seems inappropriate because aircraft are fundamentally different - tiny, airborne, cheap - as opposed to big, seaborne and expensive. I'd draw the comparsion between a WW2 cruiser and a WW2 destroyer. If you consider such a fight, barring the uncertainly of torpedo fire from the destroyer (Eve has no equivelent; WW2 torpedos were very deadly, but hard to use in navel combat between ships), the cruiser will clearly win. One other issue to note in real-life is that armour is very different to how it is implimented in Eve. One of the reasons a cruiser in WW2 is so superior to a destroyer is that the armour on the cruiser is thick enough to defeat the small shells the destroyer fires; so the cruiser is largely immune to incoming fire, whereas the destroyer is not. That makes combat very one-sided. In Eve, all weapons seem to affect armour equally. -- Callas
Muidired	Posted - 2003.06.12 08:17:00 - [45] In under two months someone will prolly be producing a Titan and CCP will understand that they now will have a problem keeping players around.
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.12 08:18:00 - [46] > The only reason the Yamato was able to be > destroyed by a bomber is because the ship was > not finished. > They ran out of metal and had to make part of > the deck out of wood. > The shells of the allied ships were literally > BOUNCING off of the Yamato. Erm...no allied ship came within two hundred miles of the Yamato. She was sunk by air attack alone. The state of the deck or ship being made from wood or otherwise is irrelevent. Before she went down, she absorbed at least 12 torpedo hits and 10 bomb hits. I think it's fair to say that even completed according to spec, she still would have been sunk. I should note this is the first time I've read the Yamato was improperly built due to shortages. What's your source for this? The Yamato was launched one week after the entry of Japan into the war; they were not suffering from materials shortages at that time. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 12/06/2003 10:24:28
Homo Erectus	Posted - 2003.06.12 08:34:00 - [47] Don't act like the answer is to either make frigates stronger or make cruisers weaker. It is not. The answer is to give each class of ship something that the other classes do not have. To narrow the gap and make the classes closer to being the same does not all of the sudden make frigates non obsolete. They would still be at the bottom of the pile. Give them something else.
Sun Wu	Posted - 2003.06.12 09:35:00 - [48] I would also concur that naval combat is what is closest to EVE combat, the mayor factors right now after the initial setup itself are based around range, rate of fire and damagetypes of different guns. This resembles are ship to ship combat in WW2 more than it does an air to air or air to ship battle. Both shields and armor can be modified or strengthened aswell and there are different types of both guns and ammo for them which make up a part of the choice in a battle. Right now we are still seeing relatively little people using different ammo sorts depending on target and range though, but I expect that to change. Furthermore to the comment from above stating : Quote: In under two months someone will prolly be producing a Titan and CCP will understand that they now will have a problem keeping players around. This is to me total nonsense. Once people start to build battleships and titans we will finally see the game in the state it's meant to be in. Right now is when players are most likely to leave or feel discouraged by the game, afterall neither the economy nor the tech tree is very far yet, and EVE in the long run is not about everyone climbing and waiting till there are titans and battleships but about what will happen once those are in place. That is when battles on a real scale start to take place, that is when things start to actually happen on a political level, that is when EVE becomes what it should be like. And no, frigates will even then not be obsolete, nor will cruisers. A small ship which costs next to nothing is still a good investment for a solo player, and even for corp members. We have many members who have bankaccounts the size of small nations yet they still fly around in their new frigates at times, I think people need to realise that just because you can buy a cruiser or battleship or whatever it doesn't mean you should get one, nor does it mean there is automatically any gain in said ship for you. Afterall a cruiser is slower, more expensive to maintain and also a larger target in battle. If you see 4 frigates and 1 cruiser come along 90% of the people out there will focusfire on the cruiser to take it out first.... ________________________________
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.12 10:05:00 - [49] > Don't act like the answer is to either make > frigates stronger or make cruisers weaker. It > is not. > The answer is to give each class of ship > something that the other classes do not have. Ship design is straightforward. The more shields, armour and hull you pack into a ship, the heavier and less maneuverable it becomes. If you want a quick ship, you don't get much shields, armour and hull. If you want to pack more shields, armour and hull into the ship, it gets slower. You cannot avoid this. All this stuff about giving each ship something the others don't have - it's woolly thinking. Ships are simple. They are a trade off between speed/maneuverability and firepower/endurance. You pay your money and you make your choice. There is no such concept as "each class has a unique ability to ensure each class isn't obsoleted by the next heavier class". -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 12/06/2003 10:23:16
Captain Bluebear	Posted - 2003.06.12 10:41:00 - [50] Callas, i bow to your wisdom. bows Anyway, if i may drop my twopenneth into the pot. Yes there will be Battleships. Big Battleships. Probably even BIG Battleships. But why are you expecting people to leave in droves. Are you expecting these Battleships to waste the time and effort invested in building them by wandering around space knocking out frigates and cruisers? Surely not. These ships are being built by Corps, for Corps. I think they may be looking for a slightly higher profit margin than the pickings from a frigate, or even a cruiser. In any battle, frigates will have their uses (cannon fodder), so will cruisers (artillery). And if you're soloing, stay the hell away from battles. ________________________________________________ Captain Bluebear Interstellar Vagrant
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.12 11:01:00 - [51] Quote: Callas, i bow to your wisdom. bows Anyway, if i may drop my twopenneth into the pot. Yes there will be Battleships. Big Battleships. Probably even BIG Battleships. But why are you expecting people to leave in droves. I'm not. Someone else made this thread. -- Callas
Captain Bluebear	Posted - 2003.06.12 11:56:00 - [52] Oops, I did know that, i just didn't make it clear... ________________________________________________ Captain Bluebear Interstellar Vagrant
Shock	Posted - 2003.06.12 12:49:00 - [53] Quote: nifty frigates, you didn't see the cruise missiles/torpedoes coming in at your bow. If you had been watching the cruiser you could have taken out those missiles, but now you're dead. You can't fire torpedos from frigates. They take 20m3 and only H-50 launcher can hold these. H-50 lauchers require 50 CPU and 60 MW, which is practically beyond any frigate. Cruise missiles are not very likely to be used by frigates, they are to slow and too easy to take down for only 50 extra damage. Some cruisers can even outrun them with some ABs. And firing them from all sides won't help since missiles most times re-adjust before exploding resulting in the cruiser being out of range. You can see it already happen with rockets at low speed because of their nimble blast radius and low agility. So you will have to resort on heavy missiles. It will take aproximately 20 cruise missiles to take down my Moa, though its probally closer to 40 due to sheild boosters, defender missiles and smartbombs. 40 missiles! That takes either a long time to fire or a enourmous amount of people willing to die. Not to mention the fact that I will probably take down a frigate every ten seconds causing drastic decrease of firepower of the frigate group. And what if it are 2 cruisers...also since they then can make sure they always have frigates to fire at at optimal range. My point here is, don't overestimate missiles: - They are slow when compared to cruisers with a bunch of AB or even a MWD. - They are outrageously cost/damage ineffective. - They are untrustworthy in delivering damage when compared to the instant hits of guns also because of the efficiency of countermeasures - They hardly do any damage...even killing a frigate with light missiles takes ages. I think CCP should upgrade the missiles, especially the rockets and light missiles and the top-end like torpedos. Torpedos are cruiser missiles but I do more damage with my 250 rails in the same time to fire, have more range and when comparing costs...(well only use looted ammo :) But now even top S guns can do more damage for 1/500 of the cost of a light missile and when you compare the damage taking the rate of fire in account... Edited by: Shock on 12/06/2003 12:49:09 Edited by: Shock on 12/06/2003 12:52:14 --- soonÖ
Karash Amerius	Posted - 2003.06.12 13:11:00 - [54] Give Frigates like 6 or 8 medium slots. Note: The above statement is meant to provoke discussion only. Balancing is a tricky thing, but all ships must have a purpose. Give me a REASON to fly a frigate over a cruiser.
EagleFour	Posted - 2003.06.12 14:05:00 - [55] Just FYI guys the gap between a Frigate and a cruisers would be: Destroyer Light Cruiser Or you could throw in a warp interdictor with lots of ECM capabilites just a thought. JOBS - Got Moin?
Nibarlan	Posted - 2003.06.12 14:21:00 - [56] I dont have a cruiser, I probably will eventualy, now I have 1 industrial and several different frigates. I like my frigates, their fun to use and great change of pace. ----------------------------------------------- In space no one can hear you scream...unless you scream on the radio, then everybody on that channel can hear you...but only if your in a ship, because they wouldn't hear you if you were in space and screamed into the radio -----------------------------------------------
Quantum Enforcer	Posted - 2003.06.12 14:36:00 - [57] I think a frigate with a sufficiently skilled pilot and the right equipment should be able to dogde cruiser fire or take lesser damage from a glancing shot (not that we can or can't now). Of course the trade-off would be that the frigate can't do much damage against a superior vessel with better shielding and more power. The idea being a squadron of several frigates could concievably take down a well equipped cruiser if not defended by other frigates or equipped with fast/agile missiles for defense. Edit: On a side-note, I could equip an H-50 (I think) on my frigate...but not much else. Hmm...a suicide bomber pilot role. That would work only if the missiles would coninue to their target after the pilot is dead. Edited by: Quantum Enforcer on 12/06/2003 14:41:37 Q.E. New Dawn Corp. -- Fear the badge!! It has a really sharp pin on the back and can hurt or cause injury if used improperly. Use only as directed.
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.12 14:42:00 - [58] > Give Frigates like 6 or 8 medium slots. Erk! > Note: The above statement is meant to provoke > discussion only. Hmm. Did "erk!" count as discussion? > Balancing is a tricky thing, but all ships > must have a purpose. Give me a REASON to fly a > frigate over a cruiser. I disagree with the assertation that all ships must have a purpose. It might turn out to be that the balance of the game is such that light ships are rarely used - perhaps for exploration only, maybe not at all. If that is how it is, then that is how it is. -- Callas
Vachir	Posted - 2003.06.12 15:46:00 - [59] "Ships are simple. They are a trade off between speed/maneuverability and firepower/endurance." Right now there is no tradeoff. With afterburners and MWD it's just more of everything the higher you go. As such, bigger is always better and there is no reason you would ever want anything other than the largest class of ship you can afford. This effectively means that yes, frigates are obsolite, and cruisers will be obsolite as well as soon as battleships become commonplace. I see this as a bad thing, as eventually the only practical way to compete is by having a battleship (or titan if we ever get to that point). This means a huge gap between the game state and the newbie who starts the game in a frigate, and also takes a lot of depth out of the game as everyone must follow a very similar liniar path in order to be successful. IMHO something needs to be done to ensure that there are reasons (other than lack of funds) to chose a smaller class of ship over a larger one.
Avathin Manathir	Posted - 2003.06.12 15:53:00 - [60] All they need to do is make it very hard for cruisers to hit frigates... end of story. To Be Gallente
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.06.12 15:53:00 - [61] //Give Frigates like 6 or 8 medium slots.// ...... what's the purpose to give frigates 6 or 8 medium slots if frigates NEVER be able to fit them all? check your cpu and power output first and talk about give frigates 6-8 medium slots... lol
Aras	Posted - 2003.06.12 16:30:00 - [62] Frigates RULE. Cheap enough to have several sittin in the hanger and if you need to changes stations.. leave them behind or sell them. I love having a punisher with 3 mining lasers cutting away some ore. Have a few cruisers to gaurd from threats and have everyone else jump in a tormentor or punisher and cut away.. a few indies to pick up. Lots of mins fast and what's the absolute worst thing that could happen.. Lose 2 indies, a few frigs, and a couple cruisers, No sweat. Frigs are like disposable lighters, they'll never be obsolete. I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill
Anercite	Posted - 2003.06.12 16:40:00 - [63] If you've ever played wing commander, you fly small fighters and/or frigates and they can take out big ships, they need to implament a way so that big ships haev trouble hitting smalelr ships. Maybe a frigate-bomber class, specicifcally designed to take out larger ships alone or in duos ect... Look at Star Wars=) the death start was a frickin moon and it couldnt take out the fightrers, balance is neeeded in size confrontation. And it wont be a since for either, remember that wholetrench run thing The game needs to promote groups and working together as well as making it possible for lones, corps \should have well blaances groups with frigates and cruies and BS's eventually. Of course, missles should be upgraded, along with a speciual type of class(bobmber) or a speicla type of frigate missle launcher capable of lauching torpedoes or cruiser killer things, yes guns should be able to easily hit frigates, but if they do.... Edited by: Anercite on 12/06/2003 16:55:12
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.12 16:57:00 - [64] > All they need to do is make it very hard for > cruisers to hit frigates... end of story. I can see the threads now... "What use are cruisers?" "Nerf frigates - they're too hard to hit!" "I paid 10 million for my Moa and I got nailed by a Rifter!!" I think it's bizzare to even think about making cruisers so that they are unable to destroy frigates. It's totally crazy. -- Callas
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.12 16:59:00 - [65] > Callas wrote: > > Ships are simple. They are a trade off > > between speed/maneuverability and > > firepower/endurance. > Right now there is no tradeoff. With > afterburners and MWD it's just more of > everything the higher you go. As such, bigger > is always better and there is no reason you > would ever want anything other than the > largest class of ship you can afford. Yes, this is indeed true. I think MWDs and afterburners should not stack, which would at least partially deal with this problem. However, a cruiser with a MWD will still be a butt load faster than a frigate with an afterburner. Bad module design by CCP? I can't see a way out of this one. -- Callas
Xzragath	Posted - 2003.06.12 18:13:00 - [66] In general I think frigates will become obsolete. Many people will still fly them, new ones will come out, they will get better and more deadly but so will Cruisers and larger ships. Frigates are the newbie ship of Eve. I don't see a problem with them being owned 1 on 1 but they will continue to be a force to be reckoned with in mass. I also see no problem with Cruisers and larger ships becoming faster and more powerful as the pilots grow in experience. This is not the open seas it is space, mass does no mean slow in space it means larger engines to propel you at greater speeds and maneuver you quickly around the solar system. It also means more power to mount larger guns that have greater range and more damaging affects. All in all I see no problem with frigates being the weakest ship in the game, they are. That is why they are so cheap, they are expendable. The real question is do you want to protect your biomass with the weakest shell in the game? Some people will always want to fly frigates, for whatever reason it is just the way things are. Other people only want the biggest baddest thing in the game, again just the way things are. So even if Frigates are obsolete people will still use them. Some are complaining that it gives an unfair advantage to people with more money, large Corps etc. Well duh, this whole game is based on money. Whoever has the most money will have the best stuff (in general). Sorry if you think this is unfair but it is a major part of the game. The only thing money will not get you in this game is higher skills, that takes time, other than that he with the most money has the most toys (again in general).
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.12 18:43:00 - [67] Quote: If you've ever played wing commander, you fly small fighters and/or frigates and they can take out big ships, they need to implament a way so that big ships haev trouble hitting smalelr ships. AFAIK, the slow tracking speed on cruiser class weapons is the Eve equivelent. Quote: Look at Star Wars=) the death start was a frickin moon and it couldnt take out the fightrers, I'm not sure a heroic-epic type movie is a good source of game balance inspiration. Quote: The game needs to promote groups and working together as well as making it possible for lones, So the game should promote everything? =) -- Callas
black crow	Posted - 2003.06.12 19:33:00 - [68] I can see why some people might think the Frigate is obsolete, being this game is still young and everyone is still learning how things work. Im sure most people that that have tried to take on a cruiser with a frigate or two have experienced some sort of unbalance, dont you? But really all the ship class types are meant to serve a role and those roles cant really be noticed in head to head combat or small skirmishes. Thats like pitting a couple foot soldiers up against a tank, or some helicopters against one fighter jet, or even a few gunboats against a battleship! Now thats not to say that those foot soldiers couldnt take down a tank. But in order to do so you would need good strategies and/or force in numbers. Thats were EVE will rise above the other games IMO. When the actual roles of each ship begin to have purpose thats when itll get fun. IMO the role of the frigate is to be the grunts of the formation, the soldiers. The ones who jump into the fray gunz blazn! Theyre cheap cuz they're meant to be expendable. Theyre fast cuz they should be taking all the fire away from the larger ships. The importance of their role cannot be understated just as a foot soldier is to his unit. With all that said I still have some gripes about combat in the game. Heres some things i would like to see happen to combat in EVE: 1) There should be a way to target specific systems on a ship. Personally i think any craft thats smaller than its target should be able to target its individual systems. Like a cruiser could target a battleships engines or a frigate could target a cruisers missle launchers or somthing to that effect. 2) Cloaking! Some sort of suprise is essential for good combat tactics. I would like to see cloaking have its own skill set. It should have a counterpart to detect cloaked ships of course with its own skill set. And ditch the Local Channel uber radar! 3)Along with what someelse stated earlier in this thread, when you select approach or keep at distance you should pursue when they warp. Being able to fire weapons at warp speed though might not be a good idea! 4)Keep Distance and Orbit should be scalable. IMO you should be able to adjust distance for those commands on the fly and user friendly. 5)Evasive Manuevering should be more automatic! Maybe an extra command for the right click menu???? When you select it you turn and roll to your ships max agility while following your target. This way it maximizes your ships ability to evade incoming fire. I have more but this is post getting long! Anyway frigates are at the moment useful just use them the way they are supposed to be used. And remember one xwing didnt take down whole the death star multiple squadrons did!
Kiran	Posted - 2003.06.12 21:32:00 - [69] Frigates are like the one man fighters of any sci-fi movie. They swarm over the larger ships taking out the other fighters while the larger ships take each other on. Sometimes a fighter will get a break in combat to help out attacking the larger enemy ship. So I dont think we are going to see the end of the Frigate as people will learn what roles they play in large battles. As for Freelancers giving up and joing a corp personaly I dont think I will. I like my freedom to much and truley dont fancy wearing a company jumpsuite and handing over all my ISK to some big fat CEO. At the end of the day what I make is mine and it dont belong to any corperation. Kiran of the EFN/FLC Kiran-" Damn where did that pirate go?" Martican (co-pilot)-" He went behind those two big pink asteroids." Kiran-"Will you stop taking the **** out of my fury dice?"
Vachir	Posted - 2003.06.12 22:00:00 - [70] The problem is, there is absolutely nothing you can do better in a frigate than you can in a cruiser. If your corp uses frigates and cruisers, while another uses only cruisers you would lose, because frigates are just all around weaker ships than cruisers.
Fredde	Posted - 2003.06.12 22:39:00 - [71] It would be nice to have a ship class to fill the gap between Frigates and cruisers. perhaps a destroyer for a more-than-frigate (more modules and power, but still limited to small size modules), and a light cruiser to be the less-than-cruiser(with Medium slots). Of course that would mean battlecruisers and dreadnaughts to cover the cruiser-battleship and battleship-titan gaps as well...
DarkRift	Posted - 2003.06.12 22:43:00 - [72] For the unbalanced micro warp drive speed advantage on cruisers, check my idea for a nano warp drive (NWD) for frigates here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=7338
Callas	Posted - 2003.06.12 22:44:00 - [73] Quote: As for Freelancers giving up and joing a corp personaly I dont think I will. I like my freedom to much and truley dont fancy wearing a company jumpsuite and handing over all my ISK to some big fat CEO. Opportunity to plug my corp here :) I run "Milton Friedman's Trading Corporation". Tax is 0%. Players have maximum possible political and economic freedom. The CEO is a figurehead only (you've got to have one to have a corp). You do what you want. If you want to trade alone, you do. If you want to work with a corp member, you do. If you want to mine, go ahead. All the stuff you buy belongs to you, not the corp. All the money you make belongs to you, not the corp. We are all equal individuals. The corp only exists to provide services we cannot provide for ourselves, but can only provide by working with others - in practise, this means a military capability. There are levies to pay for this; these levies occur when the guy who runs defence thinks we need something. He proposes the charge to the corp, and if the majority agree, then all must pay towards the cost. It's up to you to make as much money as you can. You find the way that is best for you. That way may or may not change over time. It's entirely up to you. The corp does not subsidize you, and the corp does not charge you to subsidize others. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 12/06/2003 22:50:02
Sri	Posted - 2003.06.13 03:06:00 - [74] Think total cost. Taking caldari ships for a moment. Moa, fullly equipped, say 20 million. Now have 20 million in merlins and you've got what 55 odd merlins. The performace curves are not really linear for this game (and nor should they be), since 55 merlins would obliterate a moa very very quickly. Assuming they could get close enough to lock on. A couple to stasis field, a couple to warp scramble. Now obviously no one would use 55 merlins. You'd have a combo of merlins and kestrels etc... PC frigates should need a couple of friends to survive against most PC cruisers. But since there is a fairly large gap bounty wise between NPC frigates and NPC Cruisers. So IMO PC combat frigates should be able to with difficulty take on the weaker NPC cruisers solo. Which they basically can. I think that's the only way to make viable a PVE option for people, since mining can get dull fast. Now the way I see things a PC cruiser shouldn't be able to just waltz around smashing PC's in frigates who are solo. Warp disruptors should be much harder to use, and ships should be harder to disrupt etc... so that if you want to warp disrupt someone you need a designated ship or two to handle that. Corrollory to this whole discussion is the whole pirate business too, but that's covered in other threads.
Reiisha	Posted - 2004.05.04 22:44:00 - [75] Edited by: Reiisha on 04/05/2004 22:48:30 Edited by: Reiisha on 04/05/2004 22:47:58 In light of EVE's first birthday, i was looking through old topics..... and found this one. Imagine this, the same discussion is being held at this very moment.... Nothing has changed, really... In any case, happy birthday EVE! Congrats to CCP to surviving their first year with this mmorpg :) Gamersland.nl, DE site voor PC gaming!
Alowishus	Posted - 2004.05.04 23:09:00 - [76] Originally by: Tige Right now you can give a nOob a cruiser and he will own all Frigates now matter who they are and how they are kitted out. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. First off an experienced Kestrel pilot could own a "nOob" in a cruiser really easy. When I was a "nOob" and got my first cruiser I could not use cruise missiles, could not use MWD, could not use shield hardeners. A Rifter with an MWD and cruise missiles and a scrambler would have owned my ass. There would have been nothing I could do. Do you disagree? Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000
OFFT	Posted - 2004.05.04 23:22:00 - [77] Edited by: OFFT on 04/05/2004 23:49:49 I havenot read the rest I admit...sorry.... Having used Kestrels and NOW Interceptors for level 3 missions I know frigates arent obsolete. You just need SKILLS You go full circle..Having got the Bs you think erm what next...Oh a frigate...what else can that do ... So far my Crow has taken out all Caldari but a Moa. This can be achieved in a equiped and skilled normal frigate. I dont use UBER mods...I use standard mods. Its the skills that make the frigate a weapon. IF people specialised in frigate skills and didnt go "I wanna Battleship ...." then they would specialise in the skills needed for a MEAN Frigate that BITES and doesnt just spit..... EDITED : Originally by: Mandros Aslay Having just started to collect Minimater and Gallente Ships I can now conclude that Interceptors are not really "worth it ". Alot of the level 3 frigates provide what I need such as range and speed. Interceptors are flash and fun. But invest in a level3 frigate , really go level5 on frig skills , afterburner, mwd and targeting , and gunnery. Invest the time in skills not money (isk)in an item that will drop in price or be superceded by a cruiser thats shiner. Invest isk in skills, Time in skills and oh get a top notch clone. I saw this in Ships and Modules and thought that what I sorta said ..... OFFT FORM LIFE :SIMPLE IN A COMPLICATED WAY Some players make EVE history : Other players are EVE history "We cant all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and and clap as they go by" scooooshcrumpzerump (c) Random RandomnesesesesÖ
Kunming	Posted - 2004.05.05 01:44:00 - [78] It's true that frigates die out after the player jumps in a cruiser, but as more and more skills are gained the frigates become very lethal weapons. As primary advantage their speed (high navigational skills) and their replacability. Spending 1/10 of the cost of a cruiser you can very easyly kill cruisers with a frigate once a player has the proper skills and experience in "pvp". Elite frigates are a great annoyance to bigger ships, but some frigates can hunt them down easyly (Rifter to name one). So IMHO the ship classes are kinda balanced with 2 problems remaining: - The big gap between the frigate and cruiser, and the even bigger gap between cruiser and BS class, but apparently it will change once destroyers are in - Most of the cruisers are good for nothing except mining, the cruisers some lovin' Intercepting since BETA
Morlock	Posted - 2004.05.05 02:35:00 - [79] i wonder what game some people are playing when they talk about this stuff. its definately not eve. frigates are excellent for pvp and can handle spawn to 0.4 no problems (unless theres missile launchers). cruisers can take 0.4 down to 0.0 (but not rats in ark fields). if you're in a frigate getting owned hunting 0.4 then do some agent missions, melt down 0.5 rat loot for mins, save up and buy a cruiser. doesn't take that long to do. i've been playing for months and i only just got my battleship so it's not like i'll have 4 parked in my hangar any time soon. and there will always be frigs parked there for pvp. patience grasshopper
Ronyo Dae'Loki	Posted - 2004.05.05 02:59:00 - [80] Frigates obsolete? LOLLERSKATES! That's all I have to say about this thread. ------------- My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants. I <3 ( . Y . )
Shintoko Akahoshi	Posted - 2004.05.05 03:52:00 - [81] Um... No offense, but you're all missing something. Go look up above Reiishas post. Look at the dates on the posts. This thread was an interesting piece of history, and one of the reasons why frigates aren't obsolete today... There's no meaning to life when you cling only to common sense
Mustafa Ken'Yova	Posted - 2004.05.05 03:59:00 - [82] I'm sorry but I don't agree with your argument. If you have the right setup / skills, frigates are far from obselete. As it is right now, 5 frigates can take down a BS fairly easily. Also, a skilled frigate pilot can take down a lone cruiser. Elite frigates make your point even more moot. Heavy drones are a definite end to frigates atm, but that will change soon. And finally, the balance changes coming up in the next patch will make frigates very survivable in fleet combat. Ask any veteran EVE player, frigates are far from useless. ......
Dexter Rast	Posted - 2004.05.05 07:34:00 - [83] agreed, normal progression in game is to start off with a frigate to get you going, then you move onto a cruiser asap in order to build your funds quicker, as your skills get higher with time you are then able to jump back into a frigate in order to get the best out of them, frigate pilots with no skills are easy prey, frigate pilots with decent skills are something to be very wary of. ---------------------------------------------
Pandora Panda	Posted - 2004.05.05 08:37:00 - [84] Interesting argument, and worth the bump. Even more interesting are the people who are reacting to an 11-month-old thread with outrage and scorn. Not the sharpest tools in the shed, I suppose. -------------------------------------------- CONCORD: Kneecapping Pilots for Misdemeanors Since 2003
Aelius	Posted - 2004.05.05 10:22:00 - [85] Quote: Posted - 2003.06.10 16:13:00 Now thats a bump It should be worth at least 1 month of ban from the forums. Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Deadflip2	Posted - 2004.05.05 11:21:00 - [86] Originally by: Shintai Also remember that currently the top frigate cost 1/50 of a top cruiser. Battleships will most likely be 20x more expensive that cruiser. You have 2-3 targettime in a frig, 5-6sec in a cruiser and 8+ sec in a battleship. Now clone are in, its not that dangerous to get killed before you need really expensive clones. So instead of potentionally waste your 12mio topcruisers+guns. You and your corp can now risk 20-30 frigates+guns. You just have to destroy one cruiser to win the economic battle. And if you win that. Then you won the main battle too. 4 cruisers can kill a battleship without loss 50mio vs 200mio. 30 frigates can do the same. 10mio beats 200mio. I know you need manpower for this. And there will be no podkill. Since it takes too long to retarget a pod in a big ship and you more or less instantwarps away in a pod. It takes 3 days to build a battleship. How long does it take to build the 30 frigates? ;) If I go with 3 250mm prototype rails. I can destroy a heavy frigate in 6-7sec on 10-40km range. I need maybe 10-12 on 5-10km. And 20-30sec on 0-2km. So yes, I think frigates will keep their life. It¦s too expensive for both parties to waste 100-400mio in a medium corp war. Or 50-100mio in a small corp war. Frigates will do when the wallet hurts ;) Frigates can hit permant for 80 per gun Edited by: Shintai on 10/06/2003 19:01:08 my crow costs the price of nearly 2 blackbirds dude, look at new stats. owh and for that very reson i can take out most cruisers (bbs aint one of ehm though ) --- "this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me. I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist OMG im a pretzel!!!
Deadflip2	Posted - 2004.05.05 11:23:00 - [87] Originally by: Wotok You forgot something. At some point (I would think starting in 2 or 4 months) there will be a constant supply of new blueprints. This includes new ships (perhaps even new ship classes some time) and new equipment. What does this mean? Your ships will outdate!!! If you don't buy a whole NEW cruiser in some months and also new equipment, your old cruiser will have worse stats than my all-new frigate. This means also, that not everyone will bee able to afford an ³ber-battleship. If you have to work several months for it, you just can't stay at the top-of-the-art level. (Don't forget: it's not only the ship, but also the appropriate equipment) On the other hand it's a possibility for some solo player / small corps to buy some outdated old battleships... I find some more exciting new aspects of this game every time I think about it. :)))) Edited by: Wotok on 10/06/2003 17:04:26 fair point only you miss something, the new ships will each have their own role, so its not like interceptors will be exeeded in speed and resolution at any time --- "this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me. I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist OMG im a pretzel!!!
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2004.05.05 11:24:00 - [88] Originally by: Aelius Quote: Posted - 2003.06.10 16:13:00 Now thats a bump It should be worth at least 1 month of ban from the forums. Really I was thinking more in the lines of brutally murdering him. It would set a good example __________ Capacitor research
Miz Cenuij	Posted - 2004.05.05 13:28:00 - [89] Edited by: Miz Cenuij on 05/05/2004 13:30:41 How things change over 11 months... Now I dont even own a cruiser or battleship. Only ever fly my crow or silver mag. "Men are going to die.. and im going to kill them".
Klio	Posted - 2004.05.05 13:37:00 - [90] Things sure have changed EVE Forum Rules - Contact the Moderator Team

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