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Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:38:00 - [91] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Minerva Vulcan It's fine if you like to suicide gank in empire. End thread here. I r lame and fixeded ur quote fixed Much obliged. As I was saying... it's fine. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:39:00 - [92] I'll give 2-1 odds for anyone who wants to bet on which the OP is Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:40:00 - [93] Originally by: Tortun Nahme I'll give 2-1 odds for anyone who wants to bet on which the OP is 2m ISK on ignorant. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:41:00 - [94] recorded (the outcome will not change by measuring it!) Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:46:00 - [95] Originally by: Ishtar1 if the stuff is really that valuable fit nanos I-stabs and poly carbon rigs you can get hualer into warp pretty fast Truth. A rigged and T2-fitted blockade runner can move a fantastic amount of value (3750m^3 cargo) at interceptor speed. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Steel Tigeress Gallente Ravenous Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:52:00 - [96] How about this: What if they just made a new type of container? 3500m3 Size 2500m3 Capacity Shield modules inside from scanning. Able to be produced rather cheaply. Make them cheap enough so that the only people using them are not people trying to hide goods. That way gatecamps have to wonder if the person is carrying a load of valuable cargo....or maybe they already dropped it off and are headed home. Or it could just be empty cans hoping to bait the camp into siciding them.
Jesnen Amarr Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:02:00 - [97] in my opinion the reason suicide ganking is gaining popularity is the demise of lowsec piracy. Find a way to boost piracy in low sec so that it is as common and profitable as it used to be and the suicide gankers will go back to being regular pirates.
Araxmas The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:10:00 - [98] Almost 3 years, most of time spent in empire on borders of low sec. Never been suicide ganked, hauled on a few occasions all my belongings in on badger that has enough shield hardeners to stop a rhino during mating season. Suicide ganking is fine, maybe have more consequence for it tbh but still no biggie for me. -------- The Derek Quote Pyramid
Polly Math Alpha-Hirogen	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:10:00 - [99] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Minerva Vulcan It's fine if you like to suicide gank in empire. End thread here. fixed. Shame I never have done it, eh? In fact I live in low sec. However, when I do go into empire with a couple billion in goods once a month, I'm smart enough to take precautions, use the right ships for the job, and I've never ever had even close to a problem. A ton of Salvage? I use a covert ops ship. Lots of loot? Tank up the Badger II, and don't autopilot. Lots of ore? I carry the more valuable ones which are typically of much lower quantities on a Badger II with nanos and I-Stabs in one trip, and carry the less valuable ones in a fully expanded version. Never. Had. A. Problem. The only ones that do are the lazy and ignorant. ok for the last time, then im done repeating myself. all this thread is about is how empire ganking is out of line in terms risk/reward. not about avoiding the gank, nor is it me having problems moving my stuff in empire. saying lols! you can avoid easy there is no problem! is like argueing that the bw nerf on the myrmi is stupid and list dozens of counters to ogre II's to proove your point. by reducing insurance payout to zero the only thing happens is that the threshold for a profitable gank is set higher. you can still gank all the lazy/careless ppl, still get your profits. its just not that deadcheap as it is now.
EvilSpork Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:39:00 - [100] oh my god people, high sec means safER, not totally safe. deal with it and stop whining. in fact, be smart about it and you get to loot and salvage the idiots who attack you. im making about 15 million isk per trip across empire from it.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:46:00 - [101] The risk:reward ratio for suicide ganking is out of balance largely because too many empire haulers refuse to accept the necessity of taking countermeasures. The people who complain about suicide ganking being unfair and unbalanced almost invariably can't or won't use the tools available to them to reduce their risk and make the gankers' jobs harder. It's as if I fitted my Raven with 4 pulse lasers and 6 civilian shield boosters and then AFK'd a cruiser gatecamp, then complained that the game is unbalanced because I lost it to smaller ships. So until we see complaints from people who are using the equipment, skills and techniques available the question is moot. Suicide ganking may be out of balance, but we can't know that until people who are doing everything possible to avoid it are affected. From my personal experience, this will be "never". CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Polly Math Alpha-Hirogen	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:54:00 - [102] Originally by: Malcanis The risk:reward ratio for suicide ganking is out of balance largely because too many empire haulers refuse to accept the necessity of taking countermeasures. The people who complain about suicide ganking being unfair and unbalanced almost invariably can't or won't use the tools available to them to reduce their risk and make the gankers' jobs harder. It's as if I fitted my Raven with 4 pulse lasers and 6 civilian shield boosters and then AFK'd a cruiser gatecamp, then complained that the game is unbalanced because I lost it to smaller ships. So until we see complaints from people who are using the equipment, skills and techniques available the question is moot. Suicide ganking may be out of balance, but we can't know that until people who are doing everything possible to avoid it are affected. From my personal experience, this will be "never". show me one km of me getting ganked in empire. you can check contracts on this char to see i moved stuff thru empire lately worth several hundred mill. so much for your point.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:25:00 - [103] Originally by: Steel Tigeress How about this: What if they just made a new type of container? 3500m3 Size 2500m3 Capacity Shield modules inside from scanning. Able to be produced rather cheaply. Make them cheap enough so that the only people using them are not people trying to hide goods. That way gatecamps have to wonder if the person is carrying a load of valuable cargo....or maybe they already dropped it off and are headed home. Or it could just be empty cans hoping to bait the camp into siciding them. smuggling, anyone?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:31:00 - [104] Edited by: Gamesguy on 03/12/2007 00:31:43 Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Malcanis The risk:reward ratio for suicide ganking is out of balance largely because too many empire haulers refuse to accept the necessity of taking countermeasures. The people who complain about suicide ganking being unfair and unbalanced almost invariably can't or won't use the tools available to them to reduce their risk and make the gankers' jobs harder. It's as if I fitted my Raven with 4 pulse lasers and 6 civilian shield boosters and then AFK'd a cruiser gatecamp, then complained that the game is unbalanced because I lost it to smaller ships. So until we see complaints from people who are using the equipment, skills and techniques available the question is moot. Suicide ganking may be out of balance, but we can't know that until people who are doing everything possible to avoid it are affected. From my personal experience, this will be "never". show me one km of me getting ganked in empire. you can check contracts on this char to see i moved stuff thru empire lately worth several hundred mill. so much for your point. Because you're a coward who posts with a jita alt. I checked, you've had exactly TWO contracts ever, one was bulk cargo worth less than a million, 2nd was a 160mil mwd, but that was like 4 months ago(which you couldve hauled in a shuttle using wtz or even bought on contract in the same system). So, in conclusion, you're a liar and a coward.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:32:00 - [105] the risk vs reward vs time trio is actually quite well balanced. It's just that a lot of people go for easy and haul as much as possible at a time and don't properly protect it. If they actually read this thread and started using some of the suggestions made here on how to avoid it, they would end up avoiding the majority of gankage. then the risk would be unchanged, the reward would be less, because people would move less at a time but the time would increase by a lot, because the gankers would now need to spend a lot more time to find a suitable target that they can actually kill before dying themselves. If you don't take the necessary steps to secure your cargo's safety then you can't complain when losing it.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:38:00 - [106] Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Originally by: Polly Math stuff. Don't fly in t1 haulers, dont afk to gates, and dont uhh fly in t1 haulers and afk haul to gates? just played a bit with eft, best align time i could get on my hoarder is around 6seconds, which should be enough to tackle and pop you on the outgoing side of the gate. im not a trader or something and really dont want to invest the 25days or so to get a transport ship. ty. My alt's viator gets <2.5 second alignment time. As long as I'm using wtz, it is effectively invulnerable outside of 0.0(even in 0.0 I just burn back to the gate, its damn hard to kill it). And I rountinely haul billions of isk worth of stuff. I think until you have been on both side of the pond(I used to suicide gank as well, but have since found far more profitable pursuits), you don't know wtf you're talking about.
Polly Math Alpha-Hirogen	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:42:00 - [107] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 03/12/2007 00:31:43 Originally by: Polly Math show me one km of me getting ganked in empire. you can check contracts on this char to see i moved stuff thru empire lately worth several hundred mill. so much for your point. Because you're a coward who posts with a jita alt. I checked, you've had exactly TWO contracts ever, one was bulk cargo worth less than a million, 2nd was a 160mil mwd, but that was like 4 months ago(which you couldve hauled in a shuttle using wtz or even bought on contract in the same system). So, in conclusion, you're a liar and a coward. lol... check for active and finished. yes its not huge amounts of m¦,the point was worth several hundred millions. should also show you that im not a buyer/reseller. all stuff i found myself in 0.0 or empire plexes. so much for liar. what was the coward for? dont tell me for moving the stuff with wtz in a covops.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:47:00 - [108] Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 03/12/2007 00:31:43 Originally by: Polly Math show me one km of me getting ganked in empire. you can check contracts on this char to see i moved stuff thru empire lately worth several hundred mill. so much for your point. Because you're a coward who posts with a jita alt. I checked, you've had exactly TWO contracts ever, one was bulk cargo worth less than a million, 2nd was a 160mil mwd, but that was like 4 months ago(which you couldve hauled in a shuttle using wtz or even bought on contract in the same system). So, in conclusion, you're a liar and a coward. lol... check for active and finished. yes its not huge amounts of m¦,the point was worth several hundred millions. should also show you that im not a buyer/reseller. all stuff i found myself in 0.0 or empire plexes. so much for liar. what was the coward for? dont tell me for moving the stuff with wtz in a covops. You know very well I can't check for active, I can only look at finished contracts. All you've had was 2 contracts in an 8 month period. One was for 500k isk courier contract within the same station with a collateral of 800k isk, the second was a gistii mwd in ours which you may or may not have bought in the same system and resold. The coward was for not posting with your main.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:59:00 - [109] 0.5+ is MORE dangerous than 0.0 if you have high value cargo (assuming you understand the threats in both) Threats in both 0.0 and 0.5+ can be managed and often avoided, but I still find the situation as it exists a little silly. There are two options I like for the issue: 1st option: Add a section to the tutorial that covers suicide ganking IN EXTREME DETAIL, and update it regularly. Make it so anyone that has done the tutorial KNOWS the threat, including what works against it, and what does not work (such as cans loaded with lots of crap to give a scanner a big list) 2nd option: Get rid of insurance for any ship that dies (for any reason) while flagged to concord. The 1st option "should" sharply reduce the number of poor noobs that fall victim to it, which is actually my main concern. The 2nd option changes the math of suicide ganking. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Polly Math Alpha-Hirogen	Posted - 2007.12.03 01:08:00 - [110] Originally by: Gamesguy You know very well I can't check for active, I can only look at finished contracts. All you've had was 2 contracts in an 8 month period. One was for 500k isk courier contract within the same station with a collateral of 800k isk, the second was a gistii mwd in ours which you may or may not have bought in the same system and resold. The coward was for not posting with your main. oh, im such a trade noob :(. there is a pithi a-type ssb and esoteric ship data bpc up, should be running out soon. lol, that courier contract was when i grinded up sec rating for r&d agents and had to move 10k omber for a storyline with no hoarder to buy around. as for not posting with my main, he rarely leaves 0.0 anyways so i figured this is the right char to post it with. anyways lets stop derailing this any further. yes a t2 hauler obviously makes things very easy, but as i said before, argueing with counters to ganking when the point of this thread is that insurance payout for getting concord busting your hull makes no sense is missing the point imo. if you compare it with lowsec or 0.0 camps its got a lot of pros, like not having to worry about someone busting your "camp". it may be time consuming but its not risky except for having a bad streak with loot not dropping.
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2007.12.03 01:20:00 - [111] hehehe /me loves what he looted off a hawk. Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster Gist A-Type Photon Scattering Field. dead ships make bryg a HAPPY panda Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars??? Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 01:37:00 - [112] Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Malcanis The risk:reward ratio for suicide ganking is out of balance largely because too many empire haulers refuse to accept the necessity of taking countermeasures. The people who complain about suicide ganking being unfair and unbalanced almost invariably can't or won't use the tools available to them to reduce their risk and make the gankers' jobs harder. It's as if I fitted my Raven with 4 pulse lasers and 6 civilian shield boosters and then AFK'd a cruiser gatecamp, then complained that the game is unbalanced because I lost it to smaller ships. So until we see complaints from people who are using the equipment, skills and techniques available the question is moot. Suicide ganking may be out of balance, but we can't know that until people who are doing everything possible to avoid it are affected. From my personal experience, this will be "never". show me one km of me getting ganked in empire. you can check contracts on this char to see i moved stuff thru empire lately worth several hundred mill. so much for your point. So you're saying that because you moved stuff safely through empire without getting ganked that I'm wrong? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.03 02:12:00 - [113] Originally by: Polly Math ok for the last time, then im done repeating myself. all this thread is about is how empire ganking is out of line in terms risk/reward. not about avoiding the gank, nor is it me having problems moving my stuff in empire. saying lols! you can avoid easy there is no problem! is like argueing that the bw nerf on the myrmi is stupid and list dozens of counters to ogre II's to proove your point. by reducing insurance payout to zero the only thing happens is that the threshold for a profitable gank is set higher. you can still gank all the lazy/careless ppl, still get your profits. its just not that deadcheap as it is now. So you're just complaining for the sake of complaining? Right. Thread over. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.12.03 02:14:00 - [114] Originally by: Malcanis The people who complain about suicide ganking being unfair and unbalanced almost invariably can't or won't use the tools available to them to reduce their risk and make the gankers' jobs harder. I'd be one of the one making up your "almost" then. I don't have much money, so no billion shipments from me. I move some 100-300mil in items every once in a while, not for reselling. So no big isk amounts, but just today my alt took an Itty 5 with about 200 mil in a few faction mods and some T2 sentries from Jita 4-4. Yet I can still see that continuous everyday suicide camps means there's something wrong. Removing insurance, i.e. upping the profitability barrier, is exactly what's needed, and it's all that is needed. In fact, I'd be fine with removing insurance alltogether, or at least only having the base insurance. Maybe have new chars given 1 month of full insurance on cruisers & below. But that's another topic. Suiciding should be a tool for war, not a fishing trip at your local river. I'm in my own corp for maybe half a year now, I wouldn't be affected by noobcorp limitations. If anyone wants to see, it's visible in game I believe. It's pretty much just me, so I don't see why I should advertise it here.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2007.12.03 03:01:00 - [115] I've seen many, many, many suicide whine threads but only 1 was started by a noob. He lost 300mil or so and was only 6 weeks into the game, yet still, the tutorial makes it very clear now that concord offers consequences, not protection. If i think back to 6 weeks in... i had a vexor which i thought was the **** and about 900k in my wallet... and i was running level 2 missions and mining with my pals... I have no idea why or how it was possible for him to have that much stuff So really... its not a problem with griefing noobs, its not the noobs that are the targets except in 1:1000000 cases. The target is always going to be: Idiots; People from 0.0 hauling phat loots Carebears cashing in on the spoils of highsec This makes empire somewhat dangerous for those living there and those from 0.0, if you think mineral prices and whine worthy now just imagine what the drone lands would dump on jita if hauling was 100% safe.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.03 03:01:00 - [116] Edited by: Gamesguy on 03/12/2007 03:01:22 Originally by: Qui Shon *Suiciding should be a tool for war, not a fishing trip at your local river. Killing people for free in highsec is clearly* broken, anyone should be able to see that.** http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=341 CCP clearly disagrees from you. Suiciders are like bank robbers, or muggers, suiciding is NOT a tool of war, but a rather tool of profit, preying on the stupid and the ignorant.
Bacon Flaps	Posted - 2007.12.03 03:08:00 - [117] Hey Minerva - 2006 called, they want their lame arguments back. Hardly anyone uses autopilot any more. People DO fit huge tanks, istabs, and polycarbs on Badgers. They still get nailed. Not because they are stupid, but because if you have to run 20 gate camps in a row, sooner or later one of them is going to get lucky. Quote: Yet I can still see that continuous everyday suicide camps means there's something wrong. This is correct. It's not about individual events, particular people, or specific setups. When you've played the game for a while you can see trends, and sometimes those trends blow out to be epidemics, then there is a forum ****storm, and the nerfbat is brought out. It's happened many times in all areas of the game and it needs to happen here. So, despite the myopic howling in this thread and many others, the problem WILL be fixed. Of course CCP will probably fit it in a way that leads to some other type of autistic gameplay, but at least for a while things will be back to normal.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.12.03 07:52:00 - [118] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 03/12/2007 03:01:22 Originally by: Qui Shon *Suiciding should be a tool for war, not a fishing trip at your local river. Killing people for free in highsec is clearly* broken, anyone should be able to see that.** http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=341 CCP clearly disagrees from you. Suiciders are like bank robbers, or muggers, suiciding is NOT a tool of war, but a rather tool of profit, preying on the stupid and the ignorant. Hmm. Can't argue with that then. Still leaves the (increased) prevalence of the attacks, due to the nonexistant cost of doing it.
Karrade Krise	Posted - 2007.12.03 08:48:00 - [119] If you get your ship killed while criminally flagged, you don't get insurance. It may not perfectly balance it....but it helps a bit.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.03 09:41:00 - [120] Woah, another thread about suicide ganking. With the so-called pirates (ok, carebears) saying that they need to blow up defenseless noobs using autopilot, with traders answering yes, they should. Traders then add that the balance (isk / risk) is broken, because, for example, a freighter full of crappy stuff represent enough money to be ganked (take most t1 basic stuff, fill a transport with it, do the math, you'll find out that it's profitable to blow it up), and want some way to use the only real defense against ganking (making it not profitable for gankers) so they can transport a bit more that a transport with half cargo. I mean, who uses a ship but fits only half the guns after all ? Why should traders do that ? And to that pirates answer completely off topic, saying that it's easy to avoid and other crap. Which ignores completely the point : suicide ganking is too profitable, even accounting for defense, because the isk spent for blowing up one ship even protected by concord doesn't let traders carry most T1 stuff without being at risk. Everyone agrees that fools moving BPO afk cargo extender fitted ship should die harshly. But reasoning only with extremes doesn't change that the balance is broken. Suicide ganking needs a fix : the ship that gank in high sec don't cost enough money. For example, a domi costs less that 5 million accounting for insurance, if done properly... -- random eve-related content --

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