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Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.03 10:14:00 - [121] My take on this is that suicide ganking is a necessary mechanic to counter the impossibility of wardec'ing newbiecorp players. Make it so that you CANNOT stay in newbie corps forever and I'll agree that suicide ganking should be made slightly harder. Otherwise, no, leave it as it is. Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Zo5o Gallente Longcat is Long	Posted - 2007.12.03 10:28:00 - [122] How to avoid being suicide ganked: 1. Fit improved cloak II, mwd, istabs. 2. Set destination. 3. Use station insta to undock. (Create this by flying out 500km or so in the direction you align to when you undock from your station, bookmark this spot. You can now instantly warp to this spot after undocking.) 4. Warp to 0 to next gate, activate autopilot. 5. Wait until your autopilot jumps, deactivate autopilot. 6. On the other side of the gate, double-click in space next to the next gate to align to it. Immediately follow this by activating your mwd, immediately followed by activating your improved cloak ii. Your MWD will run for the remainder of its cycle while you're cloaked, and will then automatically shut off. Next, you want to disable your cloak and warp to the next gate, and time it properly so you click warp to 0 at the same time your MWD shuts off. Done properly, you'll instawarp. Activate autopilot to jump through the next gate with, repeat. This technique, if properly executed, gives gankers two fraction of a second-long windows to lock and engage you... certainly not enough time to lock, scan, decide you're a valuable target, and engage.
Sorted Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.12.03 10:57:00 - [123] Originally by: Apocryphai My take on this is that suicide ganking is a necessary mechanic to counter the impossibility of wardec'ing newbiecorp players. Make it so that you CANNOT stay in newbie corps forever and I'll agree that suicide ganking should be made slightly harder. Otherwise, no, leave it as it is. quoted for insite, and reason. NPC corp huggin hauler types, immune to empire wars should be hittable, one way or another. If they automatcial move to a war deccable n00b corp 30 days from creation I would be very very happy. (and clean my security status)
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.03 11:59:00 - [124] Originally by: Bacon Flaps Hey Minerva - 2006 called Hey, alt to afraid to put a face to their thoughts: 2004 called, they want you to know that suicide ganking and getting insurance for any ship lost when you've purchased said insurance no matter what the circumstances was fine then, and it's fine now. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:25:00 - [125] One thing I always find facinating about suicide gank threads is the odd reasoning of some players. The most logical and easy "fix" would be to remove insurance for concord kills, Im not saying this should be done but you must admit that its not very reasonable that an insurance company would pay out an insurance when they have a concord message that they destroyed the ship because of illegal activity. Right or wrong aside, its not logical for insurance to be payed out. The oddity here is that a number of players, prodomenently suicide gankers, then bring in the very reasonable argument that not having concord kills pay out insurance would hit new players hard when they wish to show their new found friends their new cool gadget, are asked to by a sinister older player to try out their non weapon agressive module... whatever. This is odd not because its a valid point but because the point is made moot due to the fact that any agressive act has a popupp warning message, since this message is more than enough when it comes to flying into lowsec why would it not be more than enough when it comes to concord insurance payouts? The whole thing has just boggled my mind for a while and I would love to hear the reasoning behind it. Naturally there are more similar oddities when it comes to the gankpirates but for this post I will limit it to asking about this one.
Maximillian Power Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:30:00 - [126] Edited by: Maximillian Power on 03/12/2007 12:30:57 Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 03/12/2007 03:01:22 Originally by: Qui Shon *Suiciding should be a tool for war, not a fishing trip at your local river. Killing people for free in highsec is clearly* broken, anyone should be able to see that.** http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=341 CCP clearly disagrees from you. Suiciders are like bank robbers, or muggers, suiciding is NOT a tool of war, but a rather tool of profit, preying on the stupid and the ignorant. From now on anytime i get a convo after a gank I will linky that in the window :) You just made my day! EDIT: Also it is going as the first line in my bio :P
Aerhyn Minmatar Death to Tuesday Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:00:00 - [127] I don't see why the SCC would pay out for Concord kills. You are, after all, breaking the law when they show up and blow your pretty little ship to bits. The post here has nothing to do with how you haul your cargo, or what precautions you take to keep from getting ganked, it's about the SCC paying you for putting your ship in a position where it will be destroyed. I like the idea, if you can't afford to lose it don't fly it, right? Heh, and if this suggestion wre based off real life you'd find yourself fined for insurance fraud as well as out the payout.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:09:00 - [128] Originally by: Aerhyn Heh, and if this suggestion wre based off real life you'd find yourself fined for insurance fraud as well as out the payout. Good thing it's EVE and not real life and thus working precisely how the devs want it to. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Lazal Nahn Amarr Nebula Rasa Logistics Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:26:00 - [129] Yeah nice suggestions there. I don't know if that works tbh but at least it will up your survivability. What about freighters? 20 Domis will kill a freighter with only 100m loss (5m per ship). The freighter cannot fit anything and if you load about 200m worth of cargo the gankers will probably at least break even. What to do about that? Even an escort cant help here really.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:57:00 - [130] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 03/12/2007 03:01:22 Originally by: Qui Shon *Suiciding should be a tool for war, not a fishing trip at your local river. Killing people for free in highsec is clearly* broken, anyone should be able to see that. http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=341 CCP clearly disagrees from you. Suiciders are like bank robbers, or muggers, suiciding is NOT a tool of war, but a rather tool of profit, preying on the stupid and the ignorant. Oh my god, thank you** man. Every argument neatly summarised by the game developers themselves. Now I can just link this page instead of restating the obvious. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:58:00 - [131] Originally by: Fester Addams One thing I always find facinating about suicide gank threads is the odd reasoning of some players. The most logical and easy "fix" would be to remove insurance for concord kills, Im not saying this should be done but you must admit that its not very reasonable that an insurance company would pay out an insurance when they have a concord message that they destroyed the ship because of illegal activity. Right or wrong aside, its not logical for insurance to be payed out. The oddity here is that a number of players, prodomenently suicide gankers, then bring in the very reasonable argument that not having concord kills pay out insurance would hit new players hard when they wish to show their new found friends their new cool gadget, are asked to by a sinister older player to try out their non weapon agressive module... whatever. This is odd not because its a valid point but because the point is made moot due to the fact that any agressive act has a popupp warning message, since this message is more than enough when it comes to flying into lowsec why would it not be more than enough when it comes to concord insurance payouts? The whole thing has just boggled my mind for a while and I would love to hear the reasoning behind it. Naturally there are more similar oddities when it comes to the gankpirates but for this post I will limit it to asking about this one. There's nothing "logical" or "reasonable" about 'insurance' in EvE at all. It's. Not. Insurance. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 14:10:00 - [132] Originally by: Lazal Nahn Yeah nice suggestions there. I don't know if that works tbh but at least it will up your survivability. What about freighters? 20 Domis will kill a freighter with only 100m loss (5m per ship). The freighter cannot fit anything and if you load about 200m worth of cargo the gankers will probably at least break even. What to do about that? Even an escort cant help here really. You're neglecting the fact that the gankers will also hope to make some profit from their time. Given that 10M/hr is a lowball figure for 0.0 ratting or level 3 missioning, those 20 domi pilots are going to want to split about 250M/Hr. If they have to wait 2 hours, then they're going to need a successful gank on a target carrying about 1.2Bn of cargo (assuming a 50% drop rate) to break even. Why don't you empire freighter pilots create a channel where you can share intel? (I suggest titling it "The Samaritans"). Another possibility that occurs is leadership skills. Flying in gang with a corpmate or alt in a battlecruiser with an Armoured Warfare Mindlink and a Passive Defense warefare link would add 53% to your effective armour hp. Getting seige warfare 5 and seige warfare spec 4 would allow you to add an extra 25% to your shield HP. It's not a huge edge, but it would raise the number of BS pilots required, perhaps by just enough. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lazal Nahn Amarr Nebula Rasa Logistics Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2007.12.03 14:15:00 - [133] Thats erm nice but people are stupid. And there will be ganksquads pwning you for just 20m for each pilot. Its all nice and well that ganking might not be the best profession profitwise if you factor in all the effort but how do you protect your freighter? And lets leave out the high-SP command ship pilot that accompanies you everywhere you go.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.03 15:21:00 - [134] You mean you could get friends and have them run command ships with bonuses and some logistics? MADNESS!!! _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Bacon Flaps	Posted - 2007.12.03 15:26:00 - [135] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Hey, alt to afraid to put a face to their thoughts: 2004 called, they want you to know that suicide ganking and getting insurance for any ship lost when you've purchased said insurance no matter what the circumstances was fine then, and it's fine now. Yes, afraid..that's me. Scared of downs syndrome children flying internet spaceships. The point about being able to wardec noob corps in exchange for giving up suicide ganks is laughable. I would think that less than 1% of suicide gankers actually know their victims or have any reason to kill them other than easy cash. I'll iterate my points again as you seem to have missed them in your rush to fire off such a biting retort: - Suicide ganking used to be fine, as it was reasonably rare. - Suiciding freighters is still fine, as doing it is not easy. Preventing it shuld be easy for anyone with the resources to buy a freighter, or fill one with goods worth stealing. - Having to run through 20 or more gatecamps in a row in a hauler is not fine, because regardless of precautions, it's probable that you will be unlucky at some point in those 20 jumps. If not this trip, then on the way back. - The risk/reward of suiciding haulers at the moment is stoopid. You would have to be monumentally incompetent to not make money doing this. - If you have to take the same precautions flying through high-sec as you do in low-sec, then something in the game design is broken. It's always interesting to see the howling when CCP announces a nerf that rectifies something in the game that is seriously unbalanced. The more crying there is, the more it confirms to them that the nerf is necessary. See 'carriers' and 'myrmidon' for recent examples.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 15:53:00 - [136] Originally by: Lazal Nahn Edited by: Lazal Nahn on 03/12/2007 14:16:41 Thats erm nice but people are stupid. And there will be ganksquads pwning you for just 20m for each pilot. Its all nice and well that ganking might not be the best profession profitwise if you factor in all the effort but how do you protect your freighter? And lets leave out the high-SP command ship pilot that accompanies you everywhere you go. Edit: Forget the CS pilot. Even the amarr freighter has a wooping 24k armor. Unless there is a skill or warfare link increasing structure hp you can forget about that. Who said anything about a CS pilot? I specified a battlecruiser. Only 2 of the gang links are any use at all to a freighter. And it wouldn't take all that many SP. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 15:55:00 - [137] "- If you have to take the same precautions flying through high-sec as you do in low-sec, then something in the game design is broken." I'd disagree with you, but I don't have to. CCP have already done it for me. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.03 16:17:00 - [138] Originally by: Malcanis You're neglecting the fact that the gankers will also hope to make some profit from their time. Given that 10M/hr is a lowball figure for 0.0 ratting or level 3 missioning, those 20 domi pilots are going to want to split about 250M/Hr. If they have to wait 2 hours, then they're going to need a successful gank on a target carrying about 1.2Bn of cargo (assuming a 50% drop rate) to break even. Why don't you empire freighter pilots create a channel where you can share intel? (I suggest titling it "The Samaritans"). The question then is : What is 1.2 billion cargo on 800 000 m3 cargo ? It's anything worth more than 1500 isk / m3. Which is more than a lot of t1 goods cost. Therefore, thank you for proving the OP's point. Even if I disagree that removing insurance is the way to go, some kind of change is needed so trading basic goods is possible. Quote: Another possibility that occurs is leadership skills. Flying in gang with a corpmate or alt in a battlecruiser with an Armoured Warfare Mindlink and a Passive Defense warefare link would add 53% to your effective armour hp. Getting seige warfare 5 and seige warfare spec 4 would allow you to add an extra 25% to your shield HP. It's not a huge edge, but it would raise the number of BS pilots required, perhaps by just enough. People already use 1 or 2 BS more than necessary when they use 20 of them in 0.5 space anyway... and no one uses an escort with a warfare link : bringing 2 freighters instead of 1 freighter + escort removes much more risk anyway. Escorting is completely stupid in high sec. -- random eve-related content --
Polly Math Alpha-Hirogen	Posted - 2007.12.03 16:25:00 - [139] Originally by: Malcanis There's nothing "logical" or "reasonable" about 'insurance' in EvE at all. It's. Not. Insurance. so why is it called insurance again? and why do you loose isk if the insurance contract runs out before your ship explodes? yes the base payout is obviously not very insurance like and you can get more payout then the ship is actually sold for on the market, which is actually one more reason to stop payouts for concorde kills. a domi gank for 10mio max? i honestly can not see how you can still argue it wouldnt make sense.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.03 16:29:00 - [140] Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Malcanis There's nothing "logical" or "reasonable" about 'insurance' in EvE at all. It's. Not. Insurance. so why is it called insurance again? Yes, see, it's insurance because it's called insurance. Whether or not it bears any relation to the concept of insurance is irrelevant. Like they say, a rose by any other name isn't a rose because a rose is defined by being called a rose. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.12.03 16:37:00 - [141] Originally by: Malcanis "- If you have to take the same precautions flying through high-sec as you do in low-sec, then something in the game design is broken." I'd disagree with you, but I don't have to. CCP have already done it for me. Like they agreed Privateers in their heyday were fine you mean? Few in this thread want to see suicide ganks removed, just brought back in line, much like Empire wars were. I'd wager it will be done within 6 months, unless the system corrects itself before then. All that link you were so excited about says is suicide ganks for profit are made possible by design, i.e. intended. However, when they are prevalent enough to be considered no longer working as designed, and harmful to Eve, something will be done about it. Just like with Empire wardecs.
Nullus Formidilosus	Posted - 2007.12.03 16:43:00 - [142] I have been playing for about 5 days and love eve, i decided to try mining, 3 cruisers jumped into belt were me, and 1 hulk and 1 hauler were, the hauler jumped to station to drop off ore leaving me in a cruiser and the hulk, the 3 pilots approached me and privet chat me and said 6 million or pop, i tryed warping to station but they Begin ramming me i said no pay they said you dead, and poped me, the game is great but something needs to be done about the players that love to cause newer players and even older players trouble, if not for my friend, i would have quite eve there.
Polly Math Alpha-Hirogen	Posted - 2007.12.03 16:48:00 - [143] Edited by: Polly Math on 03/12/2007 16:50:52 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Malcanis There's nothing "logical" or "reasonable" about 'insurance' in EvE at all. It's. Not. Insurance. so why is it called insurance again? Yes, see, it's insurance because it's called insurance. Whether or not it bears any relation to the concept of insurance is irrelevant. Like they say, a rose by any other name isn't a rose because a rose is defined by being called a rose. wow. so you telling me the devs sat there and thought, hmm how do we call this reimbursement stuff that is totaly not insurance? i got it guys! insurance! it works like insurance except for some flaws to make coping with losses easier. obviously they cant design it like a real life insurance in terms of profit for the insurance company, the insurance fees would be insane.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.03 16:50:00 - [144] Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Polly Math Originally by: Malcanis There's nothing "logical" or "reasonable" about 'insurance' in EvE at all. It's. Not. Insurance. so why is it called insurance again? Yes, see, it's insurance because it's called insurance. Whether or not it bears any relation to the concept of insurance is irrelevant. Like they say, a rose by any other name isn't a rose because a rose is defined by being called a rose. wow. so you telling me the devs sat there and thought, hmm how do we call this reimbursement stuff that is totaly not insurance? i got it guys! insurance! it works like insurance except for some flaws to make coping with losses easier. oviously they cant design it like a real life insurance in terms of profit for the insurance company, the insurance fees would be insane. Who cares why it is called what it is called? Its defined by what it is, not what it is labelled. It bears no relation to insurance. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Polly Math Alpha-Hirogen	Posted - 2007.12.03 16:56:00 - [145] Originally by: Crumplecorn Who cares why it is called what it is called? Its defined by what it is, not what it is labelled. It bears no relation to insurance. the very fact that you have to pay a fee for full payout and that this fee is lost should the contract expire before your ship explodes, forcing you to pay another fee, sounds like insurance to me.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.03 17:08:00 - [146] theres carebears are trying to take away my lively-hood I make good isk running convoys, protecting them from high sec ganks but "nooooooo" obviously the industrials and freighters are meant to be solopwnmobiles Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.12.03 17:29:00 - [147] I really wish they'd nerf insurance for suicide ganks. Not that I think it's needed. Not that I think it would "fix" anything. Not that I think it would "balance" anything. Just so you people would shutup about it. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=597797 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=563028 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=532908 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=527625 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=521337 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=517788 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=516556 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=501124 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=509547 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=498139 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=454989 and on and on and on... PLEASE, CPP!! NERF Suicide Gank Insurance!! Think of the forums! ---- WSSH
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.03 18:22:00 - [148] Originally by: Bacon Flaps Yes, afraid..that's me. Scared of downs syndrome children flying internet spaceships. Bahaha... I tell you, that gave me a good laugh to wake up to. Clearly anyone who does something different than you in a game or disagrees with you has Down's Syndrome. Not only are you a coward, you're a pathetic little one, too. Thanks for the giggle. Originally by: Bacon Flaps - Having to run through 20 or more gatecamps in a row in a hauler is not fine, because regardless of precautions, it's probable that you will be unlucky at some point in those 20 jumps. If not this trip, then on the way back. Well then that will just have to be boohoo for you. If players want to spend their time in-game sitting on gates then so be it. Horribly boring activity, though. Originally by: Bacon Flaps - The risk/reward of suiciding haulers at the moment is stoopid. You would have to be monumentally incompetent to not make money doing this. So... basically it's in line with every other high sec activity. Seems balanced to me. Originally by: Bacon Flaps - If you have to take the same precautions flying through high-sec as you do in low-sec, then something in the game design is broken. Not at all. Read the earlier link and CCP tells you to take necessary precautions in high sec. Devs wrote that. i.e. It's fine. I now return you to your reguarly scheduled boohoo. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.03 18:25:00 - [149] Originally by: Polly Math the very fact that you have to pay a fee for full payout and that this fee is lost should the contract expire before your ship explodes, forcing you to pay another fee, sounds like insurance to me. I don't know what's hard to understand about this. Yes, it is insurance. No, it doesn't have to work or follow any of the same rules as insurance would RL. It could give you ISK every time you undock and they could still call it insurance. Why? Because it's a game, and it will work exactly how the devs want it to. And it is. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Madelchai Gallente Stimulus	Posted - 2007.12.03 18:28:00 - [150] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Originally by: Bacon Flaps - The risk/reward of suiciding haulers at the moment is stoopid. You would have to be monumentally incompetent to not make money doing this. So... basically it's in line with every other high sec activity. Seems balanced to me. This wins the thread tbh. ------ Revolution. The only solution.

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PLEASE, CPP!! NERF Suicide Gank Insurance!!Think of the forums!

PLEASE, CPP!! NERF Suicide Gank Insurance!!
Think of the forums!