I'll have to say no. Buying SP, not matter what the reasoning, is a bad idea for all the reasons stated in the past.

So you're saying I should create a dozen trial accounts and then let them unsub and just wait for the next FotM and bring them back and pay a bit to instantly train them up to whatever the current FotM is with the pile of SP it gets.

In response to this I can think of a couple of things.

One being that you restrict the age of characters being able to use it.
Problem with that is as you said 'waiting'.

Other idea is that there's a Skill training speed penalty if you use the SP backdating to acquire the missing Skill points.
Such as;

If you bought your 'missing' SP back you take a hit to the SP speed dropping it to something like normal Skill speed if you're using +4 implants. As then people would only do such a thing if they deem it 'vital or necessary '.

Just to clarify this point. I mean a permanent SP speed hit from then onwards for say the duration of the amount of time you 'reclaimed' from being inactive or even permanent indefinitely

Nothing you've said prevents it from being badly exploited.

I'll have to say no. Buying SP, not matter what the reasoning, is a bad idea for all the reasons stated in the past.

I still don't think this is a good idea though. That means that account I made back in 2004 that has been dormant since then could be reactivated and I could pay a thousand bucks to get all the SP and assign it how I want. I don't think that would be very good...

If I could like this more than once, I would.

No to buying SP in any form or fashion.

I'll have to say no. Buying SP, not matter what the reasoning, is a bad idea for all the reasons stated in the past.

So you're saying I should create a dozen trial accounts and then let them unsub and just wait for the next FotM and bring them back and pay a bit to instantly train them up to whatever the current FotM is with the pile of SP it gets.

I'll have to say no. Buying SP, not matter what the reasoning, is a bad idea for all the reasons stated in the past.

quiet peasant, people with jobs who support this game you probably paid your whole eve life with plex which doesn't help ccp advance its software or hardware are thinking, shoosh.

You should quit playing EvE then since your subscription essentially buys you time to gain SP and therefor you are buying SP in a form.

Except for buying skills that are on a character?

quiet peasant, people with jobs who support this game you probably paid your whole eve life with plex which doesn't help ccp advance its software or hardware are thinking, shoosh.

support the buying of back-logged sp

So you're saying I should create a dozen trial accounts and then let them unsub and just wait for the next FotM and bring them back and pay a bit to instantly train them up to whatever the current FotM is with the pile of SP it gets.

Yeah, no, if you can't pay for the account, you don't train, no 'backdating' SP. If you can do that then I demand the ability to backdate education in RL, so the people who skipped college to work can instantly catch back up with everyone else their age. Oh ... wait ... learning doesn't work that way ... (yeah, it is a RL->Eve analogy, but it does point out how stupid the concept is)

quiet peasant, people with jobs who support this game you probably paid your whole eve life with plex which doesn't help ccp advance its software or hardware are thinking, shoosh.

support the buying of back-logged sp

As various people have pointed out, the concept of having free SP to spend for time unsubbed is terrible. There is no way that this couldn't be abused.

How is it that the #1 is exploitable and game breaking while others are not?

Because 1 lets you instantly put points into whatever you want and completely skill for something in an instant. 2 and 3 force either you or the seller of the char to constantly make decisions over the course of two years and live with those decisions when FotM changes.

2 and 3 reward forward-thinking and planning out what you want to train, 1 rewards dumping a bunch of cash into the char and getting an instant FotM char.

Characters bought and sold have had the time spent on them and are the result of choices made over time. The whole point of skill levels, is so you have to decided is it worth train that skill to level 5, or should I train other stuff to level 4?

No matter what excuse is used to justify buying SP, it all boils down to the same thing. The removal of those decisions and consequences.

Buying a char comes with them, buying SP does not.

Bingo jasper's struck a good point. make a limitation of how far you can backdate your skill points 6months to a year maximum will enable you to 'catch up' with others of your characters age group slighty.

But would not induce 'farming' inactive accounts for the use of backdating all your sp into a nommy titan or something of that ilk.

OK. I see your point. But isn't it enough that such dumping would effect in lower total SP than with normal training?

So you're saying that if someone had to move country like I did and then have no broadband for a year, But the money to pay for an eve sub we cant backdate even though we would have paid for a sub if we were able to download the client?

Even though we would be paying for a full years subscription?

Yes, because any dumping of skill points onto a character, however small or large, is abusable; and if there's one thing I know about Eve, it's that people will abuse the crap out of anything they can, however they can.

And I do understand Jasp3r's point about returning chars wanting to 'catch up', but Eve is supposed to have consequences, and a "whoops, I really did want those SP after all" button is completely contrary to the whole mindset of Eve. This is the same situation as the "let me delete skills and re-use the SP" threads, it might be kinda nice for some people, but it would be abused to no end by others, and the abuse would be worse than the benefits.

I realise that most people that are already ahead don't want any kind of catch-up advantage given to those returning.

So you're saying that if someone had to move country like I did and then have no broadband for a year, But the money to pay for an eve sub we cant backdate even though we would have paid for a sub if we were able to download the client?

Even though we would be paying for a full years subscription?

My idea:

1. You can buy missed skills only once per character. This applies for the life of the character. This prevents players from buying a years worth of skills, putting the character into hibernation, then doing it again one year later.

2. You can only buy up to 75% of missed skills. This prevents someone who has paid and played since Day 1 from losing their earned advantage.

3. You lose 5% of missed skills as a penalty. This somewhat covers the 'bad decisions' that would have happened had the person played through that time.

So you're saying that if someone had to move country like I did and then have no broadband for a year, But the money to pay for an eve sub we cant backdate even though we would have paid for a sub if we were able to download the client?

Even though we would be paying for a full years subscription?

How about...

When resubscribing, players get the option to pay the full amount since they left and then they get a cerebral accelerator that doubles the training speed for that period going forward.

So, you don't get an instant win (which rules out the flavour of the month issue) and have to plan and queue skills in the same way for the next 1-6 months... they are just training at twice the speed.

From the perspective of the re-subbing player, it still takes away the feeling of training time lost.

So, if you are in fact rewarded for leaving the game for whatever reason then it totally goes against game mechanics. And yes you would be rewarded. Being able to freely invest skill points really is a massive advantage.

Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinion... you can't please all of the people all of the time. There should be a vote which includes currently unsubbed players.

This isn't HoN, WoT or LoL - if you want "pay to win," go play those games.

EvE is a game, where your choces have meaning. Stop playing is one of these choices and it will have consequences.

Vets will at some point have to give way on a few of these issues. What good is it being ahead if there is nobody to be ahead of? We need ideas to bring players back and I don't think a catch-up training speed implant for resubscribing players is a bad one.

I think gold ammo is different as it would affect all players and almost 'require' people to pay money to stay ahead in fights. A catch-up implant would not give anyone an advantage.. their skill numbers would be the same as if they'd never unsubbed and it would take the same 'overall' time.

This does seem to be a "I don't want people catching-up to me" issue, which is natural.. but imagine what it means for the player count and CCP... more players returning than what might have without it; and then when they do a lump sum to CCP. A small price to pay for the vets I feel... how is it any different from the officer edition?

This fallacious argument is always the last resort of someone whose idea is decisively rejected.

There are many genius level IQs (135+) in our community and they will shut you down. My favorite is Tippia. =)

I support the idea. Anything to boost the size of the EVE community I'm all for.

This proposal would damage Eve far more than it would help

1. It is easily exploitable to train FotM characters
....This would reduce variety in what ships are flown and make combat more uniform and FotM ships even more prevalent.
2. It devalues the people who have continued to play Eve for long times
3. It reduces the consequences to your actions (namely the action of unsubscribing)

Anything that allows characters to dump SP into skills all at once at will can (and will) be exploited.

I don't see any need for this mechanic... What benefit does this bring to the game?

If you have the money to pay 2-yrs of lapsed subscription fees... 2yrs == ~24 plex == ~12 bill.

10b 38m Cal/Minnie PvP Pilot
9.5b 39m Amar PvP Pilot
40B 100+M PvP Pilot

Let me remind you again about learning skills removal. If I'm the only person remembering it, doesn't this fact itself indicate how insignificant the matter was on the whole?

Notice how I said "Anything that allows characters to dump SP into skill all at once at will. Learning skill removal was a one-time event, which minimized how much it could be exploited. Making it possible to do that at will, would make it extremely exploitable. Can you see the difference between a one-time thing and an every-single-day thing?

And in response to your other stuff

1. Exploitable up to a point is still exploitable. And you're underestimating the lengths to which people will go to exploit things.
2. How do you know it would never close it significantly? What evidence do you have of that?
3. Yes, it would be that bad.

And it would pretty much destroy the character market, not just add choices. Why buy a char with fixed SP when you can buy one with a pile of SP to assign?

- Only reactivated accounts and a cap of 6 months.
- Must be purchased with real money (not plex) and at full cost.
- No skill dump but a 'Cerebral Accelerator' (Like the officer edition implant) that doubles the training speed for the duration (upto the max of 6 months).

As the above is only a training speed modifier, there is no skill dump and removes the flavour of the month argument. As the training time is double, the _overall_ training time is no less or greater than if they were subscribed all along.

The officer edition implant already does the same thing, so they must have got around the exploits. The training speed would be exactly double.. so the _overall_ time would be the same... as if they never unsubbed basically... although it would take the same time again to catch-up.

So, you're gone for 6 months, you'll be caught up in another 6 months.

Consequences, I'll keep repeating it and you should learn to live with them.

Want your skills to keep training? Then keep your account alive and train, it's that simple.

No one should be able to buy SP, no matter what the reason or how low the amount. Ever.

Edit: This also includes some back hand 'Implant'. It's just another form of consequence removal.

The consequences argument isn't valid in this scenario, as the catch-up will still take time. If players are going to leave, they'll do it... regardless of consequences. At least with this they might want to return before the 6 month cap.

I mean the officer edition of the game that includes that implant. They must have prevented that from being traded.. I think it was just applied to my account when I did it... this would be the same, just applied to the account with an expiry of 1-6 months based on the period.

I'd say it is neutral in the good/bad argument as it would be the same as if the person was active during the time. The overall training time and skill amount would be the same.

[quote=Jasp3r]I could amass batch of such implants allowing me to train at superspeed for many years. Smells a bit fishy to me.

Well, maybe not bad but not going to be allowed. This period of supertraining is functionally equal to six months grace period after account deactivation when you cannot play but still can train skills.

They could just apply it to your account, not have it as an in-game item at all.

Not sure what you mean here, can you expand?

It's a removal of the consequence of leaving and losing all that SP, when your account is not active. Plus it introduces pay to gain.

...

Oh, well, I've been misled then. From all your earlier posts in this thread I got impression you're bellowing "every action shall have consequences". Here is no different. There still are consequences, whether you use this term or not.

Or if you meant this specific consequence, training time lost then yes, removal or rather limiting this consequence is all this whole discussion is about.

What? I've been consistent throughout this thread, misled how exactly?

I disagree with it as much as the last, as this new idea gives the option of buying faster training. In other words, pay to gain.

If you didn't study in the school, you cannot get all of that knowledge instantly when you will be 30 years old. Forget it.

Completely unacceptable. Eve will be flooded by characters with 150+ millions of SP. Everybody will remember that he has some temporary required/wrong started etc account, and pay $300-$400 to instantly get his own perfect miner or perfect logist say.
Eve will be flooded by such "perfect-skilled" alts. This will just kill the game.

Your proposal:
- 6 months of supertraining: 20m (10m in half a year, twice speed)
- half year after reactivation player has 20m SP

Yes, they will get 20m skill in 6 months.. the normal 10m and 10m from the training time modifier (capped at 6 months). However, they will already be 20m skill behind due to the year timeout. So if they had of stayed, they would now be at 30m skill points (1 1/2 years).

Read the full thread, all of the arguments above have been resolved. It's maxed at 6 months and certainly not instant.