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Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2007.12.06 13:24:00 - [1] Yes... just 5mins ago, i was chased down by a vaga and popped in my SABRE just for you information, cause it seems some people seem to think this nerf was needed... 25%??? major mistake! i have a full set of snakes/2x polies/1xoverdrive injector/1xinerta stab the nano vaga's where travelling at 9k........ i'd really like to know the logic of this? But then i have asked many times, and highlighted this many times, but for some reason, this idea of the forum to provide feedback to the development team seems to have failed. by the way, no point in flaming me for whining... yes i am a little upset! so would you if you found that Cruiser size ship can go faster that a Speed Setup for a Destroyer size ship.... hey, and before, yes i also know that the are other issues...
Hatch Minmatar Cloak and Daggers Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.06 14:09:00 - [2] especially since the required skills for the dictor are interceptor lvl 4. the vaga is a hac, and requires assault ship lvl 4. the dictor is supposed to be a speed ship, the vaga needs to be more of a tank, for it's named role. It is the only hac that has ungodly speed to it and now has no real counter. Hell, when i get into a fleet battle, i simply ignor the vaga's because there ain't a damn thing that can counter them. Rapiers and Huggins can't slow them down, they just coast right out of range, if they bother to get close enough. At least the dictors could be smashed by snipers, well, before snipers got screwed.
Self One	Posted - 2007.12.06 14:14:00 - [3] Don't blame it on the Vagabonds or these will also get MASSIVELY nerfed (and what good are minmatar ships without speed tanks ?) Dictor's nerf is a totally stupid move by CCP with both this massive speed reduction (death assured even when you spend 100M in 2 polycarbpons ... good job guys !) and the totally stupid agression bubble mechanism. Please revert those stupid changes.
Arcinod	Posted - 2007.12.06 14:21:00 - [4] I agree that the nerf was excessive. If you really wanted to balance the "overpowering" speed setups, nerf polycarbs. The t1 rigs, albeit expensive, are the only thing that change an acceptable speed setup into rediculous. This would also stop or lessen the complaints about other overpowered speed ships like vagabonds and what not. Seriously, the dictor speed nerf is way too much, especially for a ship that requires INTERCEPTOR 4! They are supposed to be fast!
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.12.06 16:14:00 - [5] Trying to raise Zulupark over this issue has so far proved to be a waste of time. Zulu's convinced a ship that can interdict any warps in a 20km radius should have some downsides. Zulu's obviously not bothered checking the HP, sig radius, agility, and resists of the T2 destroyers. Zulu's obviously not bothered to check the skill requirements either. Interceptors IV and all that. Now we have a Snaked/Polycarboned Sabre being outrun by a Snaked/Polycarboned Vagabond. Zulu, you're clueless. Seriously. There were many threads in this forum, each of them pointing out where the real problems lay, and still you didn't back down. Screw your pride. We don't care if you make a change and then have to back down from it.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.12.06 16:45:00 - [6] It is quite obvious from the above posts..... ...that the Vaga needs a massive speed nerf. 9 km/s is just too fast for a cruiser under any circumstances. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
1Evildude Gallente Kingdom of Kador	Posted - 2007.12.06 17:01:00 - [7] wwweeeeeeeee.... CCP's stopped harassing Gallente, while your at it, please reduce the speed for their recons aswell. Ty
Pharuan Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.12.06 17:08:00 - [8] I've noticed that the only people complaining about it are Sabre pilots. There must be something to that. I just wish they would nerf 11kmps crows.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.12.06 17:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Pharuan I've noticed that the only people complaining about it are Sabre pilots. There must be something to that. I just wish they would nerf 11kmps crows. <- Flycatcher Pilot
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2007.12.06 17:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Pharuan I've noticed that the only people complaining about it are Sabre pilots. There must be something to that. I just wish they would nerf 11kmps crows. might like to do a little thinking before jumping in on this... this is a serious issue, CCP has made an error and it wasn't just nerfing interdictors... it was not listening to its users. I am sure in a few weeks when you find less interdictors around and only a few Heavey dictors that are inta primaried.. lets face it the only way they are getting out of a fleet engagement is through multi stabbing them! Catching large fast nano fleets become jobs of inties.. and well, nano fleets are normally cruisers.... and well again, crusiers will insta pop inties. Or catching sniper ships that are aligned... your only going to be tacking one if your inty gets there in time. Gate camps? i here you say they will be a thing of the past.... again, nope. heavies will make it harder for you. I would welcome a nerf that had some sense to it... made the nerfing of Polies, or snakes... or even overdrives to ruduce overall speed of fast tanks. But to nerf just dictors 25%... 25% thats 1/4 of its speed, just seems crazy.... and to ignore the users, seems someone singular has too much power. I'd also like to point out the much increased usage of T2 Nano Ships in a New Hardcore alliance. They have now become even harder to stop.
Gyle Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:44:00 - [11] TBH the dictor nerf is a shock. But there is a simple fix that would allow ccp to keep the dictors nerf without ruining the class. NERF THE FRACKING VAGA!!!!!! Its too fast and way too unbalanced and seems to be the only ship seen out in 0.0 that flies solo or in small gangs these days (exaggeration admitadly but you get the point) /me awaites furious response from****ger pilots opposing a nerf to the only ship they can fly!. No cruiser should outrun a speedy frig or destroyer period.
BugxEarl Amarr Division 9 Golden Leaves Izanagi Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:51:00 - [12] Only people complaining are people flying sabre? Hello? I fly a flycatcher and this stupid thing goes slower than a freaking tech1 cruiser. A TECH1 CRUISER. The iron law of EVE PvP is, if the ship cannot tank the raw DPS, it must either be able to A.run away from it B.disable the aggressor through the use of EWar. Dictors cannot use option B due to lack of cap, slots, and bonus. It sure makes immense sense to fly ships that a cruiser comes along and goes 'heya biotch' and swats you out of the sky. How do you fly one? Welp you fly it like a V1 bombs back in WW2. Thank you very much.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2007.12.06 23:43:00 - [13] A polycarb'd gisti'd sabre now hits around 5 and a bit km/s - which to be honest is probably quite a reasonable figure in itself. Compared however to ships like the Vagabond and the various Interceptors, it's woefully slow. To be honest, it's not the Sabre that needs to change - it's the other "fast ships" that need it. Interceptors with full snake sets, polycarbs and all the trimmings really shouldn't need to go any faster than around 8km/s (which would be perfectly in line with the 5km/s or so the sabre now does) and the Vagabond needs to be reduced to a peak of around 7km/s when similarly "pimped", but have it's mass increased slightly to compensate. I think the key issue isn't that speed tanking is a problem, but rather that we're seeing ridiculous speeds. You can still speed tank the damage from anything larger than a frigate whilst doing 5km/s in a destroyer sized ship, so perhaps there is some balance yet needs addressing with the other ships classes here?
Athanasios Anastasiou Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.06 23:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Gyle Its too fast and way too unbalanced and seems to be the only ship seen out in 0.0 that flies solo or in small gangs these days (exaggeration admitadly but you get the point) No cruiser should outrun a speedy frig or destroyer period. So you want to nerf the only ship that you can solo/small gang in? I never thought I'd meet someone who wants blob online.
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2007.12.07 00:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Cedric Diggory A polycarb'd gisti'd sabre now hits around 5 and a bit km/s - which to be honest is probably quite a reasonable figure in itself. Compared however to ships like the Vagabond and the various Interceptors, it's woefully slow. To be honest, it's not the Sabre that needs to change - it's the other "fast ships" that need it. Interceptors with full snake sets, polycarbs and all the trimmings really shouldn't need to go any faster than around 8km/s (which would be perfectly in line with the 5km/s or so the sabre now does) and the Vagabond needs to be reduced to a peak of around 7km/s when similarly "pimped", but have it's mass increased slightly to compensate. I think the key issue isn't that speed tanking is a problem, but rather that we're seeing ridiculous speeds. You can still speed tank the damage from anything larger than a frigate whilst doing 5km/s in a destroyer sized ship, so perhaps there is some balance yet needs addressing with the other ships classes here? ok.. i agree in principle to what your saying... yes the are needs to be an address to ship speed. Lets face it you can pimp any ship up to a high speed. but your saying.... Inty (frigate class) = 8k Dictor (destroyer class) = 5k Vaga (Cruiser Class) = 7k The thing is... a inty/frig for tackling, a dictor/destroyer for inty/frig bashing, a cruiser/hac for support (can be tanked many ways).... this used to work... if you needed to slow ships down, you neut'd them or webbed them... Recons! Now you introduce a Ewar frig, that can web at range too. Again a good move. But, so why the nerf to dictors??? What you have highlighted just shows now how this dosen't work anymore! Game mechanics are now broke... i suggest CCP figure this out quick, cause New players can't even escape nano hac gangs now! Making 0.0 harder to live in than it was before!
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2007.12.07 00:46:00 - [16] Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 07/12/2007 00:49:57 I should probably point out that I'm talking about 8km/s top speed for the inty and 7km/s for the vaga. Realistic setups would be much lower - these would be polycarbon and overdrive setups, which on the vaga don't work as it's too heavy; you need to run some istabs and nanos to make it work. So you'd be looking at your average "pimp" vaga doing more like 6km/s and your average inty doing around 7km/s. To reiterate: Sabre: 6km/s MAX SPEED Vaga: 7km/s MAX SPEED Inty: 8km/s MAX SPEED ...and bring any HACs down in line to match this change if necessary. I don't think anyone would really dispute that the Vagabond with it's bonuses SHOULD be faster than the Sabre, but the degree by which it can outrun one now when similar amounts of ISK are splashed on them is a tad extreme. The Vagabond will always be and should be 25% faster than the rest of the HACs when similarly fit, but no HAC should be faster than a Destroyer of ANY sort. Currently, this is where the real problem lies. I believe currently an Ishtar can hit 5km/s too when similarly fitted to a Sabre, which is a real issue. The whole HAC line needs to be dropped in speed a little.
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.12.07 02:53:00 - [17] I would just like to note that my non rigged T2 fitted Helios ( cov ops ) matches speed ( 3k/s ) with my Eris ( dicter ). There is something wrong with that.
Gyle Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.12.07 04:50:00 - [18] Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 07/12/2007 03:04:34 Originally by: Gyle Its too fast and way too unbalanced and seems to be the only ship seen out in 0.0 that flies solo or in small gangs these days (exaggeration admitadly but you get the point) No cruiser should outrun a speedy frig or destroyer period. You want to nerf the only ship that you can solo/small gang in? I never thought I'd meet someone who wants blob online . Well maybe if it was more balanced you would see some variations in the roaming gang composition. But heaven forbid using more than one ship eh?
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.12.07 08:36:00 - [19] The problem with the Vaga is that is almost 100% untouchable if the pilot have good skills and know what he do..... Sure ceptors going faster, but ceptors can be easy destroyed if a bit slowed down, and ceptors have not much DPS. Vaga can zoom 6-7k without expensive implants, have good dps and because have good tank, he can easy escape. Yes, minmatar should be the fast race, but a Vaga(cruiser sized ship) should not go faster than a Sabre(destroyer sized ship, which have really no other defense than speed)
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:17:00 - [20] Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 07/12/2007 11:19:05 Quote: I would just like to note that my non rigged T2 fitted Helios ( cov ops ) matches speed ( 3k/s ) with my Eris ( dicter ). There is something wrong with that. No it doesn't. With just polycarb rigs and a gisti mwd, the Helios hits just shy of 3km/s where the Eris hits nearly 3.5km/s. When lowslots are used, the Eris will max out at over 6km/s compared to the Helios which doesn't even make 5km/s That gulf will only widen if we were to take implants into account. Helios: 3x Domination Overdrive 1x Gistii A-Type MWD 2x Polycarb Rigs Eris 3x Domination Overdrive 1x Domination Nanofiber 1x Gistii A-Type MWD 2x Polycarb Rigs Quote: Yes, minmatar should be the fast race, but a Vaga(cruiser sized ship) should not go faster than a Sabre(destroyer sized ship, which have really no other defense than speed) Yes, it should be faster. It's too fast right now, but the balance should be that the Vagabond would be slower than the Sabre without it's velocity bonus, and faster than it including the bonus. Right now, if someone could somehow fly a vagabond without any skills or implants but with "speed" equipment, they could hit 5km/s. Really, this should be more like 3.5km/s, which would top the vaga out before implants at more like 6.5km/s
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:21:00 - [21] what a way to inflate numbers to make you're absolute stupid complaints valid. a normal 'pimped' vaga without implants but using rigs at full nav skills is only going 6km/s, not 8. this is just another gallente/caldari whine about how they can be beat by someone that actually has to fly his ship and do something to take down a target and is used to doing so. you guys are just so used to being uber mission runners that just need to deploy drones/fire missiles and then just sit back. stop playing on macro mode, get in there and start flying! it's just too bad that ccp caved under the 'caldari and missles suck at pvp' whine and gave you another boost just to get your sorry asses out on the field.
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Cedric Diggory Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 07/12/2007 11:19:05 Quote: I would just like to note that my non rigged T2 fitted Helios ( cov ops ) matches speed ( 3k/s ) with my Eris ( dicter ). There is something wrong with that. No it doesn't. With just polycarb rigs and a gisti mwd, the Helios hits just shy of 3km/s where the Eris hits nearly 3.5km/s. When lowslots are used, the Eris will max out at over 6km/s compared to the Helios which doesn't even make 5km/s That gulf will only widen if we were to take implants into account. Helios: 3x Domination Overdrive 1x Gistii A-Type MWD 2x Polycarb Rigs Eris 3x Domination Overdrive 1x Domination Nanofiber 1x Gistii A-Type MWD 2x Polycarb Rigs Quote: Yes, minmatar should be the fast race, but a Vaga(cruiser sized ship) should not go faster than a Sabre(destroyer sized ship, which have really no other defense than speed) Yes, it should be faster. It's too fast right now, but the balance should be that the Vagabond would be slower than the Sabre without it's velocity bonus, and faster than it including the bonus. Right now, if someone could somehow fly a vagabond without any skills or implants but with "speed" equipment, they could hit 5km/s. Really, this should be more like 3.5km/s, which would top the vaga out before implants at more like 6.5km/s absolute crap statement, 5km/s skills. get out of eft dude, you don't have a clue.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:36:00 - [23] Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 07/12/2007 11:42:17 Quote: a normal 'pimped' vaga without implants but using rigs at full nav skills is only going 6km/s, not 8. this is just another gallente/caldari whine about how they can be beat by someone that actually has to fly his ship and do something to take down a target and is used to doing so. I fly Amarr Noone said the setup was realistic. Look back at all my comments, and you'll notice that I keep quoting figures for maximum possible speed. Any Halfway sensible Vaga pilot will at least run a few damage mods on there as even with 220 vulcans, heavy missiles 3x gyro and drones you're only doing around 500 dps. I do notice you don't actually dispute my claim that a fully speed fitted vaga (which is an uncommon sight, as you only do 300 dps) hits 8km/s before implants but rather simply attempt to divert attention away from the topic by insinuation. I repeat: max possible speed. Just like the Sabre, we're talking max possible speed. A more likely setup (mids/highs excluding mwd left off because lets face it, they don't impact this discussion): Gistum A-type MWD 2x Polycarbs 1x Nanofiber II 1x Istab II 1x Domi Overdrive 2x Gyro 6km/s at max skills Now as you now doubt know, the istab is essential for orbiting one's target and just general manouverability. If we factor out the Vagabond's 25% velocity bonus? about 4.8km/s. That's still faster than all the opposition, and as such is out of sync. The Vagabond should be no faster than any other speed fit hac before it's bonus!
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora	Posted - 2007.12.07 11:47:00 - [24] Even if we forget BOTH sabre and vagabond. Dictor speed nerf is retarted. Sabre can still go decent speed. But look at some other dictors, flycatcher can run like a bit over 2k/s without polycarbons. 3k with polycarbons. It's like over 100mil instapop with polycarbons. Heck I think I can make my cerberus fly faster than flycatcher, maybe even raven. There's just no sense at all flying it.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:23:00 - [25] Devs just made carrier hauling nerf, and plan other ones, because too many peoples flying carriers and they was not ment to be haulers. Im just asking any dev was checking how many Vaga's flying around in 0.0? Except the damn ratting ravens and domi's u can see just almost Vagas if is about nonfleet pvp
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.07 12:49:00 - [26] i don't dispute that people are flying these things at extremely fast speeds, and as you point out their dmg when fit like that is low. i would say that it is even lower unless you are very skilled at flying the thing. but on the same side you have crows do upwards of 11km/s. that is also extreme but you still have the luxury of doing full dmg no matter how fast it goes. caldari and gallente have the option to do full dmg at speed, amarr have tank. i suspect the reason dictors were nerfed was to give people more of a reason to switch to the new ships. that is no reason to nerf a ship that 'can' have great speed but can't do any dmg when flying that fast. to the op, where did you read that eve was supposed to logical? many things are besides, i see no problem in 2 ships being able to kill 1.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.07 13:29:00 - [27] People complaining their dictors are slower than vagabons must SFTU Dictor role is to interdict, vagabond role is to go fast Stabber is already faster than a t1 destroier, so nothing wrong there If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.12.07 13:40:00 - [28] Originally by: Kagura Nikon People complaining their dictors are slower than vagabons must SFTU Dictor role is to interdict, vagabond role is to go fast Stabber is already faster than a t1 destroier, so nothing wrong there thats the worst argue i ever heard. yes the vaga should be fast, faster than any other same sized ship, but not faster than smaller ships
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2007.12.07 13:42:00 - [29] Originally by: Damned Force The problem with the Vaga is that is almost 100% untouchable if the pilot have good skills and know what he do..... I guess no-one really has good skills to fly a Vaga since that ship devblog had such a huge death rate for vagas. Surprising for a nigh invulnerable ship. Quote: Vaga can zoom 6-7k without expensive implants, have good dps and because have good tank, he can easy escape. And all those at the same time! Hmm wait.. No dps (except 5 light drones) with mwd on. Half the dps on paper even without mwd, since you need to be in falloff. <10k buffer hps is hardly a 'good tank' by any stretch of imagination, though the speed obviously helps. Escaping I can't argue with, but any ship with a speed advantage over its opponent can do that. Quote: Yes, minmatar should be the fast race, but a Vaga(cruiser sized ship) should not go faster than a Sabre(destroyer sized ship, which have really no other defense than speed) I'm wondering where does this "cruiser should not be faster than destroyer" line comes from, sounds like gospel but does it have any more truth in it? Or is that just your personal view? Would you also agree then that destroyers should not go faster than frigs? T1 destroyer hulls have very tiny speed advantage over t1 cruiser hulls (and stabber with bonus is a lot faster than any destroyer), this coupled with the fact that destroyers have high mass compared to the 1mn thrust propulsion mods would implicate that in fact destroyers are not meant to go faster than cruisers. Is it ok that a battleship with 100mn propulsion might beat battlecruiser with cruiser sized mod in the speed game?
bellass	Posted - 2007.12.07 13:45:00 - [30] Originally by: Trigos Trilobi Originally by: Damned Force The problem with the Vaga is that is almost 100% untouchable if the pilot have good skills and know what he do..... I guess no-one really has good skills to fly a Vaga since that ship devblog had such a huge death rate for vagas. Surprising for a nigh invulnerable ship. Quote: Vaga can zoom 6-7k without expensive implants, have good dps and because have good tank, he can easy escape. And all those at the same time! Hmm wait.. No dps (except 5 light drones) with mwd on. Half the dps on paper even without mwd, since you need to be in falloff. <10k buffer hps is hardly a 'good tank' by any stretch of imagination, though the speed obviously helps. Escaping I can't argue with, but any ship with a speed advantage over its opponent can do that. Quote: Yes, minmatar should be the fast race, but a Vaga(cruiser sized ship) should not go faster than a Sabre(destroyer sized ship, which have really no other defense than speed) I'm wondering where does this "cruiser should not be faster than destroyer" line comes from, sounds like gospel but does it have any more truth in it? Or is that just your personal view? Would you also agree then that destroyers should not go faster than frigs? T1 destroyer hulls have very tiny speed advantage over t1 cruiser hulls (and stabber with bonus is a lot faster than any destroyer), this coupled with the fact that destroyers have high mass compared to the 1mn thrust propulsion mods would implicate that in fact destroyers are not meant to go faster than cruisers. Is it ok that a battleship with 100mn propulsion might beat battlecruiser with cruiser sized mod in the speed game? you beat me to this by a few seconds.

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