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Firebolt145
Gunpoint Diplomacy
35
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Posted - 2012.02.13 14:19:00 -
[91] - Quote
Ireland you should just release some raw fraps material of you doing a couple missions. I'd happily beat your times. |
6ie
The Kiwis
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 19:34:00 -
[92] - Quote
So I as about to upgrade my CNR to a Golem, but after reading this, I don't think its worth my 60+ days. Most of my CNR skills are 4/5, so may as well finish them off. |
KLizMaN
Quantum Horizons
C0NVICTED
9
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Posted - 2012.02.14 21:56:00 -
[93] - Quote
6ie wrote:So I as about to upgrade my CNR to a Golem, but after reading this, I don't think its worth my 60+ days. Most of my CNR skills are 4/5, so may as well finish them off.
Yes. I'd say sticking with a CNR is a smart call. |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
57
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Posted - 2012.02.15 04:42:00 -
[94] - Quote
Definetly a good call ... My time spent on getting a golem to fly proper is utterly wasted on skillpoints that give me very little in return.
If you want to stick to caldari and missiles ... stick to CNR/Tengu.
Maybe golem would work better if it was reworked into a gunboat (would love a raven hulled gunboat version) |
Exploited Engineer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2012.02.15 07:00:00 -
[95] - Quote
Cedo Nulli wrote:Maybe golem would work better if it was reworked into a gunboat (would love a raven hulled gunboat version)
That would basically turn it into a shield-tanked Kronos.
Fixing torpedoes alone would go a long way though (range of about 30km before rigs/implants/skills, less need for target painters). |
Exploited Engineer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.02.15 16:48:00 -
[96] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:Fixing torpedoes alone would go a long way though (range of about 30km before rigs/implants/skills, less need for target painters).
Correcting myself: 30km base range might be a bit over the top. Right now, base range of torpedoes is about 9km (interestingly just the same as HAMs), so increasing it to 15-20km would be enough. |
GF07M8
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 08:48:00 -
[97] - Quote
Turrets of all stripes have now gotten some kind of buff, cruise missiles and torpedoes have been left in the dust. |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2012.02.17 00:21:00 -
[98] - Quote
Sunviking wrote:
Something like a Ballistic Guidance System in lows would be pretty good, giving a good boost to Missile Flight Time while giving a small penalty to Missile Velocity - overal boost to total Range.
Module that first buffs that range and then nerfs the range ... brilliant  |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
433
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Posted - 2012.02.17 04:20:00 -
[99] - Quote
The thread title names Golem the "Meh" of Marauders but Rattlolsnake sidetracking aside the only discussion has been how it's second to the Vargur.
There's a lack of discussion on the Paladin or the Kronos, surely if the Golem is the "Meh" of Marauders then there'd be reasons as to why it's worse than either of those... unless they suck more in which case maybe they should just buff everything to Vargur level
Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
GF07M8
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 04:51:00 -
[100] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:The thread title names Golem the "Meh" of Marauders but Rattlolsnake sidetracking aside the only discussion has been how it's second to the Vargur. There's a lack of discussion on the Paladin or the Kronos, surely if the Golem is the "Meh" of Marauders then there'd be reasons as to why it's worse than either of those... unless they suck more in which case maybe they should just buff everything to Vargur level
Guess you missed the whole thread being about how the Vargur, Paladin, and Kronos perform better with less effort, cost, and every other metric we could come up with.
It's not about the vargur, it's about torps and cruise missiles being antiquated weapon systems and the vargur's bonus (meant to be a partial crutch for this very issue) turns into it's own nightmare due to painter cycles AND fails to solve most of the issues anyway: ie. rage torps are never useful, javs are required for range, javs slow the golem even more due to their drawbacks JUST FOR BEING LOADED trololol, none of these torps applies full dps with all painters cycling to perfection, cycling those painters perfectly is annoying at best and down-right frustrating in most situations, oh and I guess this is a good time to mention those t2 rig requirements again and the fact there's absolutely no way to get a prop mod on this ship due to the painters eating mids for lunch.
tldr: regardless of how much bling/pimp/shiny you throw at the golem it is still mediocre. A t2 kronos, paladin, or vargur can easily exceed the performance of a golem in 9 out of 10 settings and in that 1 of 10 they still might muscle through faster due to the incredibly bad range on torps and the incredibly glacial speed of a prop-less golem packing javs.
Hope this caught you up to speed. |
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Hamatitio
Aperture Harmonics
K162
68
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Posted - 2012.02.17 06:51:00 -
[101] - Quote
It may have already been said, but,
"Putting the Meh, in mehrauders" |
Exploited Engineer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2012.02.17 11:17:00 -
[102] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:There's a lack of discussion on the Paladin or the Kronos, surely if the Golem is the "Meh" of Marauders then there'd be reasons as to why it's worse than either of those.
Those have been stated in the thread.
1. Torpedoes (volley counting; necessity of rigs and implants to get halfway useful range since base range is equal to that of HAMs even though torpedoes are a battleship-class weapon; necessity of target painters (which are Minmatar EWAR anyway) even against BS-sized rats)
2. Target painters (two or three of them required, out-of-faction EWAR, juggling required)
3. Cruise missiles (Golem DPS is reduced much more than Raven/CNR DPS when using cruise missile due to one defender missile taking out 25% of the Golems volley instead of 1/6 or 1/7)
4. Lack of PG to fit a MWD when using torpedoes, meaning that you're stuck with no range and no speed. |
General Trajan
State War Academy
Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2012.02.17 13:00:00 -
[103] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:
4. Lack of PG to fit a MWD when using torpedoes, meaning that you're stuck with no range and no speed.
that is only correct IF you're unwilling to pay the cost to be the boss. that being you use a pithum a-type medium shield booster.
and unlike most people, i haz no probs rollin in pimp rides. and so what if it's meh now compared to the other marauders? at least it still looks way better than the vargur! lol
y'all leave my wounded bird of meh alone!
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Veryez
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.02.17 14:22:00 -
[104] - Quote
Having spent a long time flying the Golem, I tend to agree with the OP. However the issues are not really with the ship. The real problem is the weapons and support systems.
As is usual CCP went a bit too far when they nerfed missiles, especially the unguided ones. Rockets were worthless for years, and have only slowly been brought back into use. Torps and Hams still need some work. Changing the explosion radius would require a good deal of balancing and testing on Sisi, so I don't suppose we'll see that in quite a while. However there are some changes that wouldn't kill balance that could be made fairly quickly.
Increase range of unguided missiles by 50% (including their t2 variants). This would push the Golem's engagement range out to 60k/90k for t1/t2 missiles. Not game breaking. For unbonused ships, the engagement range goes from 20k to 30k, a small boost. This could easily be changed by increasing their flight time (increasing their speed would be preferable, but require a bit more balancing).
Target painters are still the meh of EW, and have yet to be touched. They should have been a high slot module, but that would require reworking other ships. Instead reduce their cycle time to 5 seconds and increase their bonus by 50%. I.e. The t2 version would have a bonus of 45%. Lastly it would be nice to swap their optimal and falloff values, but that's probably asking too much. Rumor has it when they were released, their bonus was double what it is now, but that quickly got nerfed. Perhaps it's time to rethink that CCP....
Finally, it is long past time for looking at the volume of all missiles, reducing their volume would allow a few more in the launcher. I know this requires testing, so put it on Sisi and lets see how it plays out, allow an extra 50% of missiles in launchers.
Fixing the weapons and modules, will go a long way towards fixing the golem. |
Bamfordi
Global Defence Initiative
Illicitly Liberated
0
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Posted - 2012.02.17 14:46:00 -
[105] - Quote
How can something be the 'meh' of marauders when your arguement is that the vargur/mach is better at mission running. first of the mach isnt a maurader. and secondly what about comparing it to the other two, the paladin can only mission in one area of space efficiently and how does the kronos weigh up to golem?
Now im not a mission runner any more but when i was i had to do it in an amarr bs, apoc or abaddon. go try that and then come back and tell me the golem is meh at missions. |
Sellendis
The Ares project
42
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Posted - 2012.02.17 15:28:00 -
[106] - Quote
@Bamfordi
As PvE ships they can only be compared in PvE situations.
Look at all 4 marauders. Vargur kicks ass, Kronos and Pally "work", Golem with cruises is worse than CNR, and with torps needs TP juggle. Of all 4 marauders, Golem has great alpha...if helped with few TPs, without them its almost useless.
Marauders are kinda end game PvE content, need a lot of skills to fly properly...and even then to perform worse than a faction ship, that is stupid....and broken.
Machariel is a mission monster, everyone agrees on that, it can barely be in the BS category since it turns like a cruiser, has 350 sig, and pumps out over 1000dps without drones (assuming you take advantage of machs speed and range).
So why train for a marauder if it under-performs? I guess people just wanna try it, problem is some weapons got nerfed in the past and it just killed some ships purpose as a whole. Golem is most affected by this, Pally has fitting issues (and hardly effective against guristas), Kronos was cursed with hybrid problem, and Vargur just kicks ass and takes names.
They are not balanced at all even among themselves. |
GF07M8
Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 18:53:00 -
[107] - Quote
General Trajan wrote:Exploited Engineer wrote:
4. Lack of PG to fit a MWD when using torpedoes, meaning that you're stuck with no range and no speed.
that is only correct IF you're unwilling to pay the cost to be the boss. that being you use a pithum a-type medium shield booster. and unlike most people, i haz no probs rollin in pimp rides. and so what if it's meh now compared to the other marauders? at least it still looks way better than the vargur! lol y'all leave my wounded bird of meh alone!
Regardless of the booster you use, throwing on a prop mod along with three painters (requisite) gives you three slots for tank. That's fine in some situations, possibly most L4's if you wanna be quite careful, but I'd rather not rock a paper tank like that against sansha/br which, amusingly, is the only time you'd ever want to use a golem over a tengu anyhow. 
Best burst tank I could get out of deadspace hardeners and pithum a-type med booster was sub-500 with 300ish sustained, without running the AB. That would actually be close to passable, assuming you want to shell out for a pithum a invil and em hardeners. So, yeah, if you spend close to 5b+ on the golem it's nearly as good as any other marauder can be at... a fraction of that price.
Bamfordi wrote:How can something be the 'meh' of marauders when your arguement is that the vargur/mach is better at mission running. first of the mach isnt a maurader. and secondly what about comparing it to the other two, the paladin can only mission in one area of space efficiently and how does the kronos weigh up to golem?
Now im not a mission runner any more but when i was i had to do it in an amarr bs, apoc or abaddon. go try that and then come back and tell me the golem is meh at missions.
I **** you not when I tell you the paladin runs kin/them rats faster than a golem due to it's range and raw damage that can actually be applied...
The golem is meh at missions, I fly all marauders. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
59
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Posted - 2012.02.17 21:44:00 -
[108] - Quote
GF07M8 wrote:I **** you not when I tell you the paladin runs kin/them rats faster than a golem due to it's range and raw damage that can actually be applied...
The golem is meh at missions, I fly all marauders.
it really is at a lot of missions. mostly the ones where things are at ranged or you only have to kill a few ships |
Cat Molina
Intransigent
0
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Posted - 2012.02.19 16:40:00 -
[109] - Quote
I trained every single Marauder, and owned one of each flavor. Later I got rid of everything but the Vargur.
Fun Fact: With the right implants/full skills backing it up, the Vargur can handle every mission easily (and solo) with a perma-run large shield booster and T2-only fit. No faction used at all... save your iskies for PvP. Even the AE bonus room if flown correctly. |
marVLs
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 07:33:00 -
[110] - Quote
Yup Golem need fix in terms of torp range (give them more speed bonus) and Micro-Management Hell.
It's just stupid that You spend so much skilling and ISK for a little better ISK/H income and so so so much worse relax playing, You just don't want to pilot it because of that Micro-Management Hell  |
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I Accidentally YourShip
Amarrian Parasylum
Brushie Brushie Brushie
156
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:14:00 -
[111] - Quote
The problem is not necessarily the ship but rather the damage platform.
Missiles are FAR too slow in comparison to how quick ships can move and the distance at which ships can engage at are. The speed of a 1400mm artillery shell at 200km is still instantaneous, so lolphysics.
In real life, missiles are MUCH faster than almost any vehicle that can carry people. Yes, bullets and shells typically fly faster but at least for bullets they don't have nearly the same projection of force. ICBMs can deliver a payload anywhere on Earth, no shell based or bullet based system can claim the same. I think, at least for torpedoes, assault missiles, etc, they should be delivered from a warp cannon and hit their targets nearly instantly, the super fast missile you see flying would just be for show. This would also justify why they have different launchers because a tube is a tube is a tube.
I could see cruise missiles and other longer range missiles retaining their travel requirement but for crying out loud, speed them up. Outrunning them should not be an option, and them travelling potentially slower than your platform that you launch from is just a slap in the face to physics (so is submarines in space maneuverability, warp drives and HIC warp bubble ship mass reduction, but we won't go there). |
I Accidentally YourShip
Amarrian Parasylum
Brushie Brushie Brushie
156
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 13:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
Bamfordi wrote:How can something be the 'meh' of marauders when your arguement is that the vargur/mach is better at mission running. first of the mach isnt a maurader. and secondly what about comparing it to the other two, the paladin can only mission in one area of space efficiently and how does the kronos weigh up to golem?
Now im not a mission runner any more but when i was i had to do it in an amarr bs, apoc or abaddon. go try that and then come back and tell me the golem is meh at missions.
It may not be optimal but a Paladin can still chew anything that isn't angels pretty easy. Angel's EM resist is too high, it should probably be pared down a bit. Paladins rofl a Golem in Amarr space and can probably hold their own in Caldari and Gallente space.
The Kronos beats the tar out of a Golem for missioning, don't even go there. With the hybrid buff, Kronos rail dps is amazing and the damage projection of rails is a godsend. It outperforms my Machariel at various engagement distances, I only stay viable/better due to mobility, and only for blitzing obviously. I would go as far to say as unless it's angels, a Kronos would be at least on par with a Vargur, and you certainly don't get angels all day, even in Minnie space.
He simply mentioned a Machariel due to the fact that it's the king of blitzing which is the king of high sec mission isk making, something that ALL the marauders should at least be a contender for, in which three of the four (in their own space) are. Golem is outperformed in Caldari space by a rail Kronos, no question. and probably by a rail Vindicator as well. Missiles need to be fixed, they're clunky and slow. |
Boz Wel
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.03.28 19:08:00 -
[113] - Quote
I wonder if CCP will plan for any missile rebalancing as a result of their (awesome looking) graphics overhaul of missiles. I could see the improved graphics causing more people to start using missiles, which could help to draw more attention to the failures of particular missile systems.
It used to be that the Golem was a fine choice because of its high DPS and its selectable damage. It's still not an awful choice. It's just that projectile weapons have been nicely buffed and they can also select their damage to an extent. They also hit instantly and can hit at further ranges than torps can, albeit at diminished DPS at greater ranges. Were CCP to simply add a bit of speed (and thus a bit of range) to torps, I think they'd be much more user-friendly and the Golem would be a lot less "meh." |
OfBalance
Caldari State
309
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 01:19:00 -
[114] - Quote
Boz Wel wrote:I wonder if CCP will plan for any missile rebalancing as a result of their (awesome looking) graphics overhaul of missiles.
I feel like that would have merited a mention at some point during fanfest, so I wouldn't go holding your breath very long. |
stoicfaux
870
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 01:29:00 -
[115] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:Boz Wel wrote:I wonder if CCP will plan for any missile rebalancing as a result of their (awesome looking) graphics overhaul of missiles. I feel like that would have merited a mention at some point during fanfest, so I wouldn't go holding your breath very long.
Yeah, my secret hope is that CCP is "forced" to dramatically increase missile speed in order to keep the new missile graphics looking as spiffy as they did in the demo video.
Dammit, if CCP hadn't nerfed the Comet's blinking light, I could now be flying around in Jita in my "Whaaaaaambulance!"
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Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
97
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Posted - 2012.03.29 20:36:00 -
[116] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:OfBalance wrote:Boz Wel wrote:I wonder if CCP will plan for any missile rebalancing as a result of their (awesome looking) graphics overhaul of missiles. I feel like that would have merited a mention at some point during fanfest, so I wouldn't go holding your breath very long. Yeah, my secret hope is that CCP is "forced" to dramatically increase missile speed in order to keep the new missile graphics looking as spiffy as they did in the demo video.
I fear that the graphics update is ment to be allso the "Buff" in performance ... I mean doesent it make them better ? .. no ? ... damn :( |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons
Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.30 03:17:00 -
[117] - Quote
IMHO all marauders are pretty "meh". Who gets marauder to V anymore? With faction bs's it usually isn't worth it. I think they deserve buff across-the-board. Arguably more for the golem.
Put the multiplier down to 7-8 or increase the damage a bit (or whatever each ship needs the most) |
marVLs
2
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Posted - 2012.03.30 09:17:00 -
[118] - Quote
Just make it that way for beginning:
Caldari Battleship Bonus: 15% bonus to torpedo velocity and 10% bonus to torpedo explosion velocity
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% to shield booster and 10% to reduction of torpedo explosion radius
Role bonus the same as it is now.
Remove one med slot.
Or give marauders special ability like for every locked target on golem there's automated target painter with 75% sig bonus (cool looking automatic 8 painters from different hull locations - wings etc), Paladin the same but with automatic WEB for locked targets that are in range of hmm 20km? or as you wish.
We just wan't to GTFO with that Target Painters juggling! And MOAR torps range!
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11eyes
War Trident
Trifectas Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.05.04 03:49:00 -
[119] - Quote
Kies Her wrote:Sunviking wrote:
Defender Missiles. Most Battleship rats and even some Cruiser and Battlecruiser rats use defender missiles, wiping out 25% of the Golem's alpha immediately. The other Marauders don't have this problem, and tracking disruptors are not common enough in missions to cause problems for turrets.
You do realise that one of the reasons Torps outperform Cruise Missiles on a golem is exactly because defender missiles are not able to kill torps due to their high hp. So defenders are actually one of the few problems the golem does not have. It's been a long time since i flew the golem and while i agree that it has some disadvantages (painter cycling) quite a few can be attributed to the general characteristics missiles have (not being able to instavolley frigs, having to count salvoes -which is way more bearable on a golem than on a rapid firing tengu btw). Some of the issues you can however circumvent by just aggressively triggering stuff (exceptions being a couple of missions where stuff leashes). I normally did one load of javelins (if at all) and then switched to t1/faction once i had to reload anyway (aka before salvo 20 left the launcher, otherwise you reload twice). Also i think its a bit hilarious complaining that a ship needing Adv Wep Upgrades V AND BS V needs T2 weapons to work which are way easier to get on a missile ship than on a turret based ship where you have to get small and medium guns up first. So to summarize. i agree on a couple of points, especially those that touch issues like painter cycling, fall off. Ship really needs maxed out skills on missiles, signature amplifying and ofc marauder to shine. Otherwise you just have a CNR with slightly more lenient fitting options.
turrets are somewhat useable without support skills. torpedos on the other hand will only hit about 12km with no support skills |
11eyes
War Trident
Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 04:56:00 -
[120] - Quote
Cedo Nulli wrote:Definetly a good call ... My time spent on getting a golem to fly proper is utterly wasted on skillpoints that give me very little in return.
If you want to stick to caldari and missiles ... stick to CNR/Tengu.
Maybe golem would work better if it was reworked into a gunboat (would love a raven hulled gunboat version)
sounds like its time for another Guristas battleship.
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