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stoicfaux 704	Posted - 2012.02.03 02:54:00 - [1] - Quote Since we have a couple of headed threads touting or disparaging the Golem, I thought I would list the reasons why the Golem is the "meh" of Marauders when it comes to running level 4 missions. Back in The Day, the Golem was mind-boggling awesome. Then, one day, some ~~heathens~~ people starting saying that the Vargur with its guns was better. After flying the Vargur with 800ACs, I found that they were right. Then people said that the Mach was better-er (and the MWD Mach was better-er-est.) Again those people were right. Moral of the Story: if I've finally figured it out, and you haven't, then you're really behind the times. Summary The primary reason for the Golem's Meh-ness is its over-abundance of DPS sapping issues, which severely drag on the Golem's strength (i.e. the ability to hit with torpedos with monstrous efficiency.) The secondary reason for the Golem's Meh-ness is the Vargur, which out-performs the Golem and does so without the Golem's headaches. Details Here are the issues, drawbacks, and annoyances that serve to Meh-nify the Golem into a subpar Marauder: 1) Limited Range - 40km for Faction/T1 torps and 60km for Javelin torps. 60km just isn't enough for a mission runner. 2) Ammo Switching - Having to switch back and forth between Javelin torps is a DPS killer, especially on missions with long range spawns. Not only do Javelins do less damage, you also lose DPS from the 10 second reload time. 10 seconds is 1.4 volleys. Switching from CN to Javelin torpedos is a 22% DPS loss. 3) Requires Reloading - With only 20 rounds in the launcher and the ammo switching problem mentioned previously, you'll spend a lot of time reloading. By comparison, the 800mm ACs on the Vargur hold 120 rounds and it's rare when you have to reload in the middle of a pocket. (So this is less of a Golem flaw and more of a Vargur makes the Golem look bad.) 4) Volley Counting - You can lose a lot of DPS by miscounting volleys. Volley counting is also compounded when using Javelins because TPs are in their falloff and might miss. You also need to learn (or create a spreadsheet[1] detailing) how many volleys is enough. 5) Target Painter Juggling - The ten second cycle of a TP is really annoying to work around. You often need to fire torpedoes before your TPs have finished cycling off of the previous target and then apply them to the next target before the torpedoes arrive. You often need to stagger your TPs between target types, e.g. a 3-TP Golem will put one TP on a battleship and save two TPs for a cruiser, in order to avoid waiting on TP cycles (and the resultant loss of DPS.) You really need to know how many or how few TPs are needed to kill a particular ship class (see Volleys To Kill metric in spreadsheet in item 4 above.) 6) Interface Lag - Missiles and TPs seem exceptionally susceptible to lag. You know the little green bar that cycles around a button's border indicating how far along a TP cycle is or when a launcher will be ready to fire again? Then you know how often the damn indicator frequently goes several seconds past its starting point, thus delaying your next volley or TP cycle. 7) Needs Drones to Kill Frigates - Drones are sloooooooooooow to kill frigates. By comparison, the Vargur often pops drones at range and rarely needs to use light drones. (Again, this is less of a Golem weakness and more of a Vargur is better problem.) (However, if you run a 5 TP Golem[2], nuke those frigates.) 8) Overkill - There's a lot of DPS loss due to overkill with a Golem. For every 7 second Golem salvo, the Vargur can fire ~2 salvos, each savlo having ~50% of the damage of the Golem's one salvo. Thus the 800ACs can often finish killing faster due to have smaller, more frequent volleys. 9) Micro Manage Drones - since you need to use lights to kill frigates, you want to keep a couple of frigates locked so that you can issue attack orders to you drones. If you rely on your drones auto-attacking frigates, you risk having them splitting up over multiple targets, potentially delaying your mission. 10) Micro-Management Hell - You need to juggle TPs, count volleys, lock wrecks, tractor wrecks, salvage wrecks, manage drones, aggress new spawns (using a spare TP) to get them to move to you to avoid switching to Javelin torps, pulse your shield booster, etc.. Other Issues 11) Expensive - A properly fit Golem is expensive due to needing two T2 missile speed rigs @ ~150M isk each. That's 300M isk to make sure that your torpedoes can reach out to 40km and 60km reliably. It also helps to put in a 3% or 5% missile velocity implant. By comparison, a Vargur does just fine without such secondary implants and with cheap rigs. 12) Can't Use Faction Weapons - Would you like to fly a Golem with faction launchers while you take 3-4 weeks training up T2 Siege Launchers? Well, you can't, since the Golem needs T2 launchers in order to use Javelins to reach 60km. 13) Very Skill Intensive - Reaching out to 60km (or even 40km) reliably requires having Missile Bombardment and Missile Projection at V. Plus you need the various TP skills need to be at 4 or better to increase their potency and optimal/falloff. 14) T2 Ammo - The Golem needs T2 Javelin ammo. Rage torpedoes are useless except against a small handful of Gurista battleships or against structures. Using Rage instead of CN ammo requires slapping an extra TP or two on most targets to achieve the same VTK (Volleys to Kill) as the CN ammo. tl;dr - You lose DPS from having limited range, juggling TPs, volley counting, etc., to the point that a Vargur can complete missions faster than a Golem. The extra training and expensive rigs are just gravy. [1] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1151130 [2] http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/42705-Golem-Angel-Screams.html You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
OfBalance Caldari State 14	Posted - 2012.02.03 03:51:00 - [2] - Quote Excellent summary. Not a bad ship, but certainly the least user-friendly of its peers. I really think the current issues plaguing cruise missiles and torps are to blame here. Namely that they simply have too hard a time applying dps to smaller targets and are over-reliant on rigs/painters to make up for this.
colay Starwolf HelpMyMissioners Epsilon Shimmy Alliance 15	Posted - 2012.02.03 04:55:00 - [3] - Quote You dont understand weapons.Each weapon type has its pros and cons.Torps are ment as short range high dps if you want to use a short range weapon use a micro warp drive.Also you need a better understanding of the weapon systems.Turrets are based on tracking speed if you can track your target and hit you do damage based on how well you tracked the target and some other factors.However launchers dont need a target lock and always hit the target if you always hit every target for max damage thay would be game breaking.Drones are ment to help bigger ships vs smaller ones if you dont want to use them thats your problem. Launchers are ment to do high damage to same size targets not smaller or bigger ones. EvE is a big mmorpg ( Many Men Online Role Playing Girls) game
OfBalance Caldari State 14	Posted - 2012.02.03 05:06:00 - [4] - Quote colay Starwolf wrote: You dont understand weapons.Each weapon type has its pros and cons.Torps are ment as short range high dps if you want to use a short range weapon use a micro warp drive.Also you need a better understanding of the weapon systems.Turrets are based on tracking speed if you can track your target and hit you do damage based on how well you tracked the target and some other factors.However launchers dont need a target lock and always hit the target if you always hit every target for max damage thay would be game breaking.Drones are ment to help bigger ships vs smaller ones if you dont want to use them thats your problem. Launchers are ment to do high damage to same size targets not smaller or bigger ones. Put a little space between those sentences man, that was painful to read. Torps are meant to be short-range, high damage, and on paper they look like that too. Trouble is, they apply so very little of that dps without a large number of mids devoted to painters that it is rather game-breaking by comparison. For the record, launchers do need a target lock unless you use FoF missiles and as you may not be aware of this I will inform you: there are no FoF variants of unguided missiles like torps. Drones can and should handle frigates, granted, but if you have any experience with torps you would know that it cannot even apply EFT dps to a stationary angel battleship without at least three ship-bonused target painters. How is that for same-sized targets? Unless you are attempting to argue that torpedos are meant only for bombers and structure-shooting, I think you are probably just misinformed about the issues at hand.
Sam Bowein Sense Amid Madness 30	Posted - 2012.02.03 08:53:00 - [5] - Quote Excellent analysis ! I hope it will be useful for anyone who hesitate training for the Golem I'll just add another issue: when you fire at a moving target at the limit of your range (ex 40km), you often lose your volley because the target moved like 1km in the opposite directionGÇª That's VERY frustrating
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 2770	Posted - 2012.02.03 09:59:00 - [6] - Quote OfBalance wrote: Missiles may be unable to "miss," their target, but they are also quite capable of running out of gas before they hit their target and wiffing a target with low sig and/or high speed for negligible damage. Defender missiles would like to punch you in the nose (ingame) GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 2770	Posted - 2012.02.03 10:00:00 - [7] - Quote colay Starwolf wrote: You dont understand weapons.Each weapon type has its pros and cons.Torps are ment as short range high dps if you want to use a short range weapon use a micro warp drive.Also you need a better understanding of the weapon systems.Turrets are based on tracking speed if you can track your target and hit you do damage based on how well you tracked the target and some other factors.However launchers dont need a target lock and always hit the target if you always hit every target for max damage thay would be game breaking.Drones are ment to help bigger ships vs smaller ones if you dont want to use them thats your problem. Launchers are ment to do high damage to same size targets not smaller or bigger ones. 1) Get a dictionary. 2) Go on a writing course. 3) Get out GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki
Sunviking The Shining Knights 11	Posted - 2012.02.03 11:10:00 - [8] - Quote Good summary. Proves my posts in previous threads about how Missiles need to be rebalanced soon. A word about Torpedoes: Torps currently have no more range than HAMs do, yet they are a battleship-class weapon. But when you compare Cruise Missiles to Heavy Missiles, they have DOUBLE the range. Clearly there is a balancing issue here. Torpedoes really need a 50% range boost to make them anywhere near balanced. Explosion Radius. 650metres for a Tech2 Rage torpedo makes it almost useless without 3 Target Painters, and dont get me started on the range and velocity of them. It takes on average at least 7 seconds for them to hit each their target, Rage Torps are so slow. The fact that Torpedoes take time to hit their target and cause damage is already enough of a handicap without the issues above. Defender Missiles. Most Battleship rats and even some Cruiser and Battlecruiser rats use defender missiles, wiping out 25% of the Golem's alpha immediately. The other Marauders don't have this problem, and tracking disruptors are not common enough in missions to cause problems for turrets. If I saw Torpedo range given a 50% boost and explosion radius reduced by 20% then I would be happy with my Rage or Javelin Torpedo's performance.
Kies Her State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.02.03 11:20:00 - [9] - Quote Sunviking wrote: Defender Missiles. Most Battleship rats and even some Cruiser and Battlecruiser rats use defender missiles, wiping out 25% of the Golem's alpha immediately. The other Marauders don't have this problem, and tracking disruptors are not common enough in missions to cause problems for turrets. You do realise that one of the reasons Torps outperform Cruise Missiles on a golem is exactly because defender missiles are not able to kill torps due to their high hp. So defenders are actually one of the few problems the golem does not have. It's been a long time since i flew the golem and while i agree that it has some disadvantages (painter cycling) quite a few can be attributed to the general characteristics missiles have (not being able to instavolley frigs, having to count salvoes -which is way more bearable on a golem than on a rapid firing tengu btw). Some of the issues you can however circumvent by just aggressively triggering stuff (exceptions being a couple of missions where stuff leashes). I normally did one load of javelins (if at all) and then switched to t1/faction once i had to reload anyway (aka before salvo 20 left the launcher, otherwise you reload twice). Also i think its a bit hilarious complaining that a ship needing Adv Wep Upgrades V AND BS V needs T2 weapons to work which are way easier to get on a missile ship than on a turret based ship where you have to get small and medium guns up first. So to summarize. i agree on a couple of points, especially those that touch issues like painter cycling, fall off. Ship really needs maxed out skills on missiles, signature amplifying and ofc marauder to shine. Otherwise you just have a CNR with slightly more lenient fitting options.
Lenthall Scorpus Hawkings Trading House 0	Posted - 2012.02.03 11:37:00 - [10] - Quote I do believe this while a good argument against Golems misses a fundamental point about Golems, Vargur's and even Machs. I have flown my Golem on missions, nullsec anomalies and even a complexes. I have also flown a Vargur in some instances, I have to disagree that the Golem and Torps are redundant or even sub par to the aforementioned ships. To start off with a small comparison Running a Sansha Nullsec Sanctum can net you around 30Mil for the whole anomoly. Now while running these in my Torp Golem I finished the easiest of the 2 Sanctum types in just about 20 minutes. (I have all skills relevant to Golem at lvl 5 ) Running that same Sanctum in a Auto-Cannon Vargur left me with almost the full last spawn of that same Sanctum to do. Now running the same setups in Angel Space the roles where reversed and the Vargur edged out the Golem. Now with the Golem because Angels come to you I just sat and waited and since my Golem is properly fit and does 42km's with CN missiles I popped them with ease and never really had to move to much. The Vargur on the other hand needed some maneuvering to make sure the short optimal wasn't a problem, but it still won out against the Golem. So whats happening here is the simple fact that some ships will do better at some tasks and for me the Golem is in fact the easiest to adapt to the different situations in my opinion. Sansha Tracking plays havoc with any turret while Angels TP really doesn't amount to much if you fit properly. As far as missions go I have up to now only had 1 mission that remotely presented a problem on range, The BloodRaider Blockade lvl 4 is just a pain in the butt for a Golem. Not a single mission (and I have run hundreds in the last 2 years) have presented any sort of issue for the Golem other than the Blockade. So simply saying Meh the Golem is no longer viable actually is the same argument that I can say when flying Sansha in a Vargur 'Meh' the Vargur is useless, and tracking sucks and I HAVE to deploy those damn light drones after all. As a last point if you fly Mach's and Vargurs with T1 guns you should be shot, those ships deserve no dmand T2 :-)
OfBalance Caldari State 15	Posted - 2012.02.03 12:01:00 - [11] - Quote Lenthall Scorpus wrote: So simply saying Meh the Golem is no longer viable actually is the same argument that I can say when flying Sansha in a Vargur 'Meh' the Vargur is useless, and tracking sucks and I HAVE to deploy those damn light drones after all. I think you may have missed some of, possibly the entire, OP.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 2770	Posted - 2012.02.03 15:28:00 - [12] - Quote I got a Golem last year, after reading how people were going "Wow, it totally rapes battleships with two volleys" and all of that hyperbolic jazz. I was pumped, I'll tell ya that for free... Sold it an hour later, as the TP juggling (giggity) coupled with low ammo capacity of the launchers and poor damage application against smaller targets was just incredibly inefficient and maddening. So I still have my Vargur and Paladin (both great, ofc), and I took the plunge with a Kronos the other day - was pleasantly surprised, to say the least :) OP: great write up about the Golem's shortcomings. Good job :) GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki
Firebolt145 Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 33	Posted - 2012.02.03 15:57:00 - [13] - Quote I remember having those arguments about vargur vs mach with you. Glad to see you've seen the light <3
Gavin DeVries JDI Industries 39	Posted - 2012.02.03 16:22:00 - [14] - Quote Last year, I decided to train for a marauder. I only run missions when I need money, so it's not that often, but I wanted to maximize the isk/hour rate. And, as I already had T2 torpedoes and level 5 in the missile support skills, I trained for a Golem. I bought it, fitted it, and ran it for a while. I didn't have any real complaints with it; it was much faster than either the Tengu or the CNR (the two ships I previously used) in the missions where I would use it (non-Gurista short-ranged missions). I then went on to train T2 large projectiles, so I decided to toss Minmatar Battleship 5 in the mix, and once I did I bought a Vargur. I find it superior in every way. Since I usually run missions in Amarr space, I face Sansha a lot. I really don't know how a Golem can finish a Sansha Sanctum faster than a Vargur can. The Vargur has been faster than the Golem in every mission where I've compared the two's completion times. PVP is a question with no single right answer, but a lot of wrong ones.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 476	Posted - 2012.02.03 16:49:00 - [15] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: 1) Limited Range - 40km for Faction/T1 torps and 60km for Javelin torps. 60km just isn't enough for a mission runner. I get 72.8 km on a Golem, so about 70 km effective. Still limited, but that's why a dedicated mission runner uses appropriate ship for the mission, and will typically have a Golem, Raven Navy Issue, and a Tengu. Examples: Golem chews-up Angels, but like all Marauders is useless vs. Guristas. Tengu is great for missions with lots of small or medium ships. Both Golem and RNI are used for EM-weak NPC. RNI for the missions requiring more range than a Tengu. I can also pilot a Mimatar ships up to the Maelstrom, and personally find turrets quite frustrating (misses, highly variable amount of damage, and shorter range) and missiles much more effective. About the only advantage I've noticed is that I can insta-pop frigates if I can get far enough away from them. Still, I'm on the road to try a Mach for myself simply to see if all the hype is true.
Texty State War Academy Caldari State 11	Posted - 2012.02.03 18:46:00 - [16] - Quote So, OP is saying that the Golem needs to be buffed?
Arazel Chainfire Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension 74	Posted - 2012.02.03 18:52:00 - [17] - Quote Texty wrote: So, OP is saying that the Golem needs to be buffed? No, OP is saying that torps need a good, hard looking at. 99% of his problems with the golem, are actually problems with torpedoes. Seriously, they have the exact same range as HAM's, ridiculous explosion radius, poor explosion velocity, excessively limited ammo amounts, and they are slow as hell. The other 1% of the OP's complaint is that target painters suck, and they really should have their cap usage and cycle time halved... and possibly their optimal range increased as well. -Arazel
OfBalance Caldari State 15	Posted - 2012.02.03 19:15:00 - [18] - Quote Arazel Chainfire wrote: Texty wrote: So, OP is saying that the Golem needs to be buffed? No, OP is saying that torps need a good, hard looking at. 99% of his problems with the golem, are actually problems with torpedoes. Seriously, they have the exact same range as HAM's, ridiculous explosion radius, poor explosion velocity, excessively limited ammo amounts, and they are slow as hell. The other 1% of the OP's complaint is that target painters suck, and they really should have their cap usage and cycle time halved... and possibly their optimal range increased as well. -Arazel Or they could just make it naga 2.0 with a hybrid bonus. ducks thrown vege
Msgerbs Imperial Assualt Guild 2	Posted - 2012.02.03 22:59:00 - [19] - Quote You people take missions way too seriously...
Aoki Ayumi University of Caille Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2012.02.04 00:33:00 - [20] - Quote Agree, and I thinck Golem should be buffed in some way. Needing T2 torpedoes to "reach something" is ridiculous, and happens in no other ship. C'mon... 45 km max and 65 with expensive rigs and maxed skills? Are you mad? Why all this hate to Golem users?
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 248	Posted - 2012.02.04 00:42:00 - [21] - Quote Some marauders are obsoleted "were best" ships made when the game had other restrictions (I.e. no MWD), no Noctis, Mach was just a shiny toy and so on. They need a round of new paint like they did for AFs. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
OfBalance Caldari State 16	Posted - 2012.02.04 01:03:00 - [22] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Some marauders are obsoleted "were best" ships made when the game had other restrictions (I.e. no MWD), no Noctis, Mach was just a shiny toy and so on. They need a round of new paint like they did for AFs. I could see someone still using a vargur, paladin, or kronos over their faction alternatives for various reasons: fit cost, ammo costs, safety in high-inc-dmg situations like a high end complex or bonus room. So marauders in general aren't obsolete as a whole. The point of this thread was to illustrate how the golem specifically is obsolete, even by comparison to other marauders, which as you just pointed out aren't wildly popular themselves. Marauders don't need a crazy AF-level buff, but battleship-class launchers need fixing, and cough certain faction ships cough and strategic cruisers cough might need a little "balancing," also. It should be clear from the OP that the former reason is far more important.
Jake Warbird Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 49	Posted - 2012.02.04 03:47:00 - [23] - Quote Excellent analysis! +1 to you,OP.
Arazel Chainfire Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension 74	Posted - 2012.02.04 05:45:00 - [24] - Quote Aoki Ayumi wrote: Agree, and I thinck Golem should be buffed in some way. Needing T2 torpedoes to "reach something" is ridiculous, and happens in no other ship. C'mon... 45 km max and 65 with expensive rigs and maxed skills? Are you mad? Why all this hate to Golem users? 45km actually isn't that bad for a shortrange ship. It is more than a blaster rohk will get, and about the effective range of a pulse abaddon or an AC maelstrom. The problem is that all the ships that I just mentioned can actually hit a battleship that is sitting still for full damage when it is inside their optimal, without needing target painters etc. A golem can't... Oh, and a HAM tengu can get the exact same range (which no medium gun boat can say, unless it has an optimal bonus and the ship you are comparing it to doesn't, ex. the legion). Personally, I think the best solution would be to allow rigors and that missile skill that reduces explosion radius to be allowed to affect torps/HAM's/rockets, give a range buff to torps so they actually outrange HAM's (maybe 25-30km w/ max skills before ship bonuses), more ammo capacity (maybe 40 shots instead of 20?) and make them travel faster, but have less flight time. With the amount of DPS a torp golem can put out, even though those changes still wouldn't let it swat frigates, killing cruisers would be easier and you wouldn't have to target paint battleships just to hit them. And you could choose to use range rigs or rigor rigs, depending upon which you felt would work out better. -Arazel
Elemac Clemson Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.02.04 08:26:00 - [25] - Quote +1 OP I fly caldari for RP reasons, but the golem was the first ship to really shake my faith in my race. It has all the makings of a really cool torpedo ship, but in practice it fails to deliver anything special unless I spend outrageous ammounts of isk on t2 rigs, an expensive shield booster, and a bunch of faction target painters. Without those things it is obviously worse than my CNR and probably not even as fast as my nighthawk, all the reloading considered. Sometimes I wonder if CCP realizes how bad the large missiles have become over the years. I really hope there is a hybrid buff for some of the less effective missile launchers soon, that would really make my year.
Exploited Engineer Caldari Provisions Caldari State 15	Posted - 2012.02.04 10:51:00 - [26] - Quote colay Starwolf wrote: You dont understand weapons.Each weapon type has its pros and cons.Torps are ment as short range high dps if you want to use a short range weapon use a micro warp drive. Unfortunately, Caldari ships are notoriously short on PG, which makes fitting a MWD on a Golem impractical. Especially when you fit torpedo launchers, which have higher PG requirements than cruise launchers. You've probably never tried to fit a Golem. colay Starwolf wrote: Also you need a better understanding of the weapon systems.Turrets are based on tracking speed if you can track your target and hit you do damage based on how well you tracked the target and some other factors.However launchers dont need a target lock and always hit the target if you always hit every target for max damage thay would be game breaking. You've also probably never tried to shoot a frigate with torpedoes. The don't do max damage, they do next to no damage. Try it, you'll be amazed. colay Starwolf wrote: Drones are ment to help bigger ships vs smaller ones if you dont want to use them thats your problem. You probably don't fly Caldari ships a lot. Else you'd know that heavy use of drones is not part of Caldari doctrine and their ships are built accordingly. Hence Caldari is the only faction without any dedicated drone boats and their ships drone capacities suck in general. colay Starwolf wrote: Launchers are ment to do high damage to same size targets not smaller or bigger ones. You probably don't use launchers or you'd know that they damage larger targets just fine. Especially unguided missiles are biased towards being better against larger targets. Unfortunately, torpedoes are unguided and the largest ship class you'll encounter in regular PvE are battleships.
Exploited Engineer Caldari Provisions Caldari State 15	Posted - 2012.02.04 10:54:00 - [27] - Quote Elemac Clemson wrote: +1 OP I fly caldari for RP reasons, but the golem was the first ship to really shake my faith in my race. Especially since it comes with two bonuses that are actually Minmatar (shield boost + tp bonus). Elemac Clemson wrote: Sometimes I wonder if CCP realizes how bad the large missiles have become over the years. Or, they could buff TPs. Enough that applying one of them means that the affected ship is in for some real pain.
Exploited Engineer Caldari Provisions Caldari State 15	Posted - 2012.02.04 10:56:00 - [28] - Quote ---
Cedo Nulli Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 44	Posted - 2012.02.04 19:54:00 - [29] - Quote As a golem pilot I heartily agree with OPs points.
Ireland VonVicious Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy 29	Posted - 2012.02.05 04:32:00 - [30] - Quote When Golem was considered the king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it. When the Vargur was considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it. Now that the mach is considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preforms it. Why is the rattlesnake not every considered the top L4 ship? Because people spend time on guns for pvp and not on drone/missles. As long as 3/4's of the players avoid heavy/sentry drones and those who do like drones stick with guns it will stay this way. RS: Over 800 landible dps at very long range. Omni tank all L4's. Can run this way with a mwd for max speed and a nos to keep cap going even in missions that neut. Survives D/C's. Never waste a volley due to drones. Can pick dmg type.

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