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Arazu set up? Or shall i just scrap the ship

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angelena Caldari AND THEN NO YOU	Posted - 2007.12.11 09:41:00 - [1] Anyone got an arazu set up now or are they now useless for 1vs1/small gangs. Trying to work it out but having not flown one in such a long time, anyone with a good set up please post thanks.
Aeaus The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.11 09:48:00 - [2] Honestly, the old setups (but with scripts) will probably work just as effectively. An Arazu (and dampeners in general) work by either reducing locking range to where the target is unable to lock you back, or restricting sensor resolution to the point where it takes him or her a while to lock anything new, this is very effective in combination with ECM. Essentially, it's potent either way, just now you must consciously choose which effect you want to have, and be aware that if you're doing something like resolution dampening several targets, there's always the potential for one of them to eventually lock you at range and alpha you. So, I think its effectiveness wasn't totally taken away, even with scripts the one way abilities are reduced, but a competent pilot will work around those.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.12.11 09:57:00 - [3] setups in the sticky, rails, damps, disruptor and damage mods in lows or mass reduction aeus is right as well, rumors of the death of damps are exaggerated; don't read the forums expecting gospel ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.11 10:01:00 - [4] well, one has to admit that you'll still need 3 damps with range script to lock down a ship to enough range for not to hit you. however ships that get closer than 10-15km from the target ship will have a harder time since he will be able to lock them as fast as it hasn't hit by any damps at all. --- planetary interaction idea!
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.11 10:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Grimpak well, one has to admit that you'll still need 3 damps with range script to lock down a ship to enough range for not to hit you. however ships that get closer than 10-15km from the target ship will have a harder time since he will be able to lock them as fast as it hasn't hit by any damps at all. except, since sensor boosters were also nurfed, in the end, its still a powerful ship. I agree, the Arazu is still amazing - a lot of the stuff on these boards are total crap, people are very taken byy EFT/FTOM setups by players that are less then a year old and either start training whatever FTOM thats in fashion or cry nurf. . .The Arazu is fine. ----
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.11 10:57:00 - [6] The Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis and Maulus/Keres are not dead, but they are a LOT less effective that they were. Especially in gang/fleet. (In the case of the Keres it ended up being born this way.) The change (especially combined with the ECM ship boost) was seriously excessive.
NoNah	Posted - 2007.12.11 10:58:00 - [7] Is the Arazu worst of ships? No. But they WERE struck to hard by a nerf not really aimed at them. Perhaps the only way to kill a fotm-wave, perhaps not. When used for solo, I found the 'zu to rarely be the one dealing damage, but using some kind of NPCs, and simply adding a little themselves. Atleast this is the way I've found use for them - solo. It's done in one of two ways. You warp in, damp him beyond locking both you and the NPC's, and then wait for him to die. Clean and simple. Should he however decide to fight you, you have to be fast and agile enough to keep him in the desired range of his new max targetting and your max scrambling. If he gets a lock, you're dead. Thats why and when the scan res damp got handy. Gives you a few more seconds to get away from him, or get him dead. Boosters was partly nerfed in this way, but with some obvious differences. They were not nerfed as heavily. And since you have the ball in your hands the moment youre damped - you don't really need both most of the time. Good ship, but heavily struck by a nerf not coming their way in the first place. Somewhat low incentive to use an arazu over for example a falcon today. Postcount: 791577
3rdD Dave Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:08:00 - [8] Edited by: 3rdD Dave on 11/12/2007 11:09:32 Lerroy it like i did. Fit it with all ecm and signal amps. Youll have a much better chance of taking ppl out of fights that using the crap damps now. pointless fckin ship tbh. having to micro manage scripts to a fight isnt the best way to go especially on a ship that likely to be called primary once it uncloaks, while you scramble to fit for the given situation. train for a falcon m8, like X amount of other gallente pilots lmfao.
angelena Caldari AND THEN NO YOU	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:27:00 - [9] Lol well seeing as i have caldari cruiser 5 trained and a shed load of electronic skills i might go for a falcon instead, think ill just put the Arazu on the market and look at the falcon instead. Time to look at falcon setups i guess.poor arazu
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:39:00 - [10] Originally by: angelena Lol well seeing as i have caldari cruiser 5 trained and a shed load of electronic skills i might go for a falcon instead, think ill just put the Arazu on the market and look at the falcon instead. Time to look at falcon setups i guess.poor arazu keres is like the arazu: lite--you won't waste your ewar skills on any of the EAS and skilling that last level of EAS will be drammatically faster than maximising recon ships 5 you trade maximum effectiveness and cloaked warp for a more nimble, and arguably more efficient ship (that you can still put impro cloak on) ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Bhodan Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:44:00 - [11] Perhaps its just me, but cant dampeners still be used without scripts and thus function like they always have? Or am i missing something here?
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:48:00 - [12] Originally by: Bhodan Perhaps its just me, but cant dampeners still be used without scripts and thus function like they always have? Or am i missing something here? without script you have two very low modifiers, almost not worth using as opposed to ~50-0 that scripting offers unless you mean you don't have the script option, I believe old ships with damps need to remove the damp and re-add it to corrects this ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:50:00 - [13] Edited by: Grimpak on 11/12/2007 11:52:20 Originally by: Ruah Piskonit Originally by: Grimpak well, one has to admit that you'll still need 3 damps with range script to lock down a ship to enough range for not to hit you. however ships that get closer than 10-15km from the target ship will have a harder time since he will be able to lock them as fast as it hasn't hit by any damps at all. except, since sensor boosters were also nurfed, in the end, its still a powerful ship. I agree, the Arazu is still amazing - a lot of the stuff on these boards are total crap, people are very taken byy EFT/FTOM setups by players that are less then a year old and either start training whatever FTOM thats in fashion or cry nurf. . .The Arazu is fine. considering that ranged scripted damps do nothing to targettign speed, engaging anything that is only range dampned means going inside where the ship can lock at the same speed before being dampned. in short ranged setups this is even more visible since they'll jsut punch in targetting speed scripts in the sensor boosters, or don't script them at all, ignoring targetting range. sure sensor boosters were also hit. and sure the dampn nerf it was not THAT hard (I admit). but even if you go to a fleet engagement with an arazu you're still useless since it's still possible to lock at 200km range. a range where damps do **** at all. in the end, dampners were not that nerfed, they still have power. but the gallente recons and ewar ships kinda lost the oompfh and are just above meh now. what stops one of training caldari now since their Ewar can be effective at longer ranges? tbh the nerf I'm seeing in the future, together with nerfing ECM drones (lol) and vagas (even more lol), is reducing ECM effectiveness sonce people will start screaming "OMFG FALCONS AND ROOKS CAN TAKE 2-4 SHIPS OUT OF THE BATTLE! TOO POWERFULL! NEUHRF!!11one". Why? because people just want straight tank/dps setups. bleh. --- planetary interaction idea!
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:05:00 - [14] Edited by: Hannobaal on 11/12/2007 12:07:42 Originally by: Bhodan Perhaps its just me, but cant dampeners still be used without scripts and thus function like they always have? Or am i missing something here? Even with scripts (which means they would only do one of the two things they used to do), they do that one thing a lot worse than they did before. A sensor dampener with range dampening script on an Arazu with high skills will now reduce targeting range on the target only slightly more than a totally unbonused damp used to do. Without scripts they reduce both range and sensor resolution, but that way they work at less than a third of their former effectiveness.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:21:00 - [15] Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure someone will) but is it not the case that T2 damps are now about as effective as T2 damps were? As such, plugging into EFT, to find out stacking and stuff, suggests to me that 3 T1 damps, on a 'pre trinity' arazu, will drop a ship to around 10% of it's targeting range. Anyone care to confirm/deny? Apply 3 damps with range script to a target, how much is it's new locking range? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:29:00 - [16] Originally by: James Lyrus Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure someone will) but is it not the case that T2 damps are now about as effective as T2 damps were? No!!! They are very, very, very far from that. Either they don't use scripts and reduce both targeting range and resolution but by such a tiny amount that they are pretty much worthless, or they load scripts and only reduce one of the two BUT STILL do it A LOT LESS than they used to.
Bazman Caldari Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.11 14:10:00 - [17] Might as well scrap it, I lost my Arazu in a small skirmish, but what i noticed is that despite having 4 Targetting Range Scripted Phased Muons on a Zealot at 30km, it was still shooting me :\| Theres a possibility that the Scimitar supporting it had remote sensor boosters on it, if it did, fair enough, otherwise, damps are severely cack now. -----
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.11 14:22:00 - [18] Edited by: Hannobaal on 11/12/2007 14:22:34 To give real numbers. Before the change, a tech 2 (or best named) sensor damp's base stats (before any skill or ship bonuses) used to be -48% to targeting range and -48% to sensor resolution. That's base stats, before any skill or ship bonuses. Right now, on my Arazu (with ship and skill bonuses), those same damps, with targeting range dampening scripts, have -48% to targeting range and 0% to sensor resolution. With maxed out skills it's -53%. So, flying an Arazu with remote sensor damps today is pretty much like using damps on a ship without bonuses and without having trained the Signal Suppression skill before the change. And then on top of that, you're only reducing either targeting range or sensor resolution - not both.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.11 15:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: James Lyrus Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure someone will) but is it not the case that T2 damps are now about as effective as T2 damps were? No!!! They are very, very, very far from that. Either they don't use scripts and reduce both targeting range and resolution but by such a tiny amount that they are pretty much worthless, or they load scripts and only reduce one of the two BUT STILL do it A LOT LESS than they used to. Sorry, that was a typo in my post. Meant to say T2 post trinity ~= T1 pre. And ... please, numbers here. After stacking, how much does 3x T2 damps reduce locking range, or resolution? Are we talking 50%, 75%, 95% or what? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.11 16:09:00 - [20] Edited by: Hannobaal on 11/12/2007 16:16:08 Originally by: James Lyrus Sorry, that was a typo in my post. Meant to say T2 post trinity ~= T1 pre. And ... please, numbers here. After stacking, how much does 3x T2 damps reduce locking range, or resolution? 3 tech 2 RSD with range dampening scripts on an Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis or Keres/Maulus with maxed out skills and no rigs, being used on the same target, reduce targeting range by a total of about 82-83% (rough calculation). Quote: Are we talking 50%, 75%, 95% or what? Can you, or can you not reduce a battleship below the warp disruptor range of an arazu? A battleship with 2 sensor booster (with range scripts), just barely or not at all. Anything less, yes. Quote: Can you reduce it below the 24km of a warp disruptor II? With 1 sensor booster, no (except for the battleships with the shortest ranges). If it's not using any sensor boosters, yes. Quote: Can you reduce it below the 10km that is webrange? No. The important part though is in gang or fleet where they would need to work on several ships to actually be worth it. They could be very useful for shutting down snipers (since that only takes 1-2 damps), but they don't have the range for it.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.12.11 17:23:00 - [21] just train for ecm ships whining solved until the fotm ecm ships Hate Farmers? Click Here
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.11 17:46:00 - [22] I'd disagree on the sniper ranges point. 45km optimal, 90km falloff suggests to me that it's actually very usable at sniper ranges - you only need one on a target, to drop it's lock range to the point where it can't return fire. But ... ok... So what _could_ an arazu do, before Trinity, that it now cannot? I mean, damps were always really awesome at shutting down a single opponent. It looks like that's still the case. Multiple targets are harder, I'd agree, because you need multiple damps per target at closer ranges. But... what's changed here? I mean, I'd have thought that a realistic arazu fit only included a max of 3-4 damps anyway? Or is the problem that's being raised here that if someone _is_ able to close to locking range, then it doesn't still take them a minute or two to lock? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:02:00 - [23] Edited by: General Coochie on 11/12/2007 18:04:55 Originally by: James Lyrus I'd disagree on the sniper ranges point. 45km optimal, 90km falloff suggests to me that it's actually very usable at sniper ranges - you only need one on a target, to drop it's lock range to the point where it can't return fire. But ... ok... So what _could_ an arazu do, before Trinity, that it now cannot? I mean, damps were always really awesome at shutting down a single opponent. It looks like that's still the case. Multiple targets are harder, I'd agree, because you need multiple damps per target at closer ranges. But... what's changed here? I mean, I'd have thought that a realistic arazu fit only included a max of 3-4 damps anyway? Or is the problem that's being raised here that if someone _is_ able to close to locking range, then it doesn't still take them a minute or two to lock? Not being able to lock under web range makes a combo with a another dps dealing ship far from as effective. I fly lachesis gankin mission runners with alt in harbinger. Before patch misson runner generally couldn't do much in return. Now alt has to upgrade to a battleship so that he can tank and gank the mission runner whatever ship he is in. I guess this applies to smaller gang warfare aswell. Note that only the lacheisis ability to scram at 48km is what makes me use it still, not its dampeners. secondly the main dps output for a arazu or lachesis is drones, since you can't have both good lockrange and good locktime reduction at once your target will insta lock your drones and hurt them, coupled with shield regeneration "nerf" (fix) I can see this greatly reduce these ships dps output. Personally if Id be flying arazu or lach for solo work Id probably fit lock time reduction coupled with ecm drones, and blasters and or HAMs. Depends on target ofc. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Natalie Jax Battlestars	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:05:00 - [24] Edited by: Natalie Jax on 11/12/2007 19:07:05 I spent some time revising my setups (EFT, been busy with other stuff in-game) to see where the ship stands. I'm damn glad I invested in the Inverted Signal Field Projector rigs for this ship. Yes, they were dropped to a 5% bonus rather than 10%, but they seem to make a difference from what I've checked. Every little bit helps now. With the rigs installed, three damps will still knock a Raven down under lock range even if it has 2 SB's on it. So the Arazu can still lock down any given battleship that isn't sitting on 3 Sensor Boosters with the rigs installed, albeit barely. Before I would only carry 3 RSD's simply because they would invariably do the trick and a 4th is so stacking nerfed (then and now) that it was a fairly useless slot. However, if you put a Scan Resolution script into your 4th RSD it will not be stacking nerfed and you'll get the full benefit from it. If nothing else this would provide a bit of a "cushion" for a close call but also might help keep drones alive if you're careful with them.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:42:00 - [25] Originally by: James Lyrus I'd disagree on the sniper ranges point. 45km optimal, 90km falloff suggests to me that it's actually very usable at sniper ranges - you only need one on a target, to drop it's lock range to the point where it can't return fire. Not really. An RSD in falloff may or may not work in each cycle. You're far better off with ECM than actually prevents him completely from targeting when it manages to jam his sensors. And with the boost to most ECM ships, it's even more of a no-brainer. Quote: So what _could_ an arazu do, before Trinity, that it now cannot? I mean, damps were always really awesome at shutting down a single opponent. It looks like that's still the case. Multiple targets are harder, I'd agree, because you need multiple damps per target at closer ranges. But... what's changed here? I mean, I'd have thought that a realistic arazu fit only included a max of 3-4 damps anyway? Or is the problem that's being raised here that if someone _is_ able to close to locking range, then it doesn't still take them a minute or two to lock? What's changed is that 2 damps could bring the locking range down a good bit than 3 can at the moment. If you bring in rigs, 1 tech 2/best named damp with a max skill level pilot would have been enough to knock a ship's sensors out of a mid-range fight while at the same time making him take forever and a half to lock anything that actually is in range. 53% max targeting range reduction (without rigs) versus 75% to range and resolution before the change. For solo fights it's not a huge deal. For gangs and fleets, it is. So, right now I'm training Caldari Battleship skill and improving my ECM skills.
3rdD Dave Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:49:00 - [26] Pre Trinity you could damp 4-5 separate targets while the main battle was going on and do well. Post Trinity 2-3 damps per ship is needed making the overall effectiveness of the ship reduced. Now take into effect the micro-management of scripts. Consider a gang who just jumped into a system, the arazu/ damp class ships has now to scramble to loads scripts to best suit the situation/ long range damp or lock time. This is just ****g stupid. Your much better off training for Caldari ECM until that ****g nerf hits!
Susa Ou	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:09:00 - [27] People are overreacting, you have to consider that dampss with range scripts still work as they did before, but the lock time is back to normal. But by the same breath, sensor boosters are being used less because they also require the same scripts to counter the negative effects. So se see less sensor boosting in space now, and a smart arazu pilot can still force opponents to dictate range - it just requires more thought then target and put 2 damps on. On top of this, it still has the scram range bonus which was its more useful feature in fleet anyway - the damps should be used defensivly while the warp jammers are used to keep people there. . .thats what the ship was designed to do - be the king of tacklers.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Susa Ou People are overreacting, you have to consider that dampss with range scripts still work as they did before, Except they don't. It didn't go from both resolution and range being reduced by x % to only one of the two being reduced by the same percentage. It went from both resolution and range being reduced by x % to only one of the two being reduced by a lot less than x. The change is excessive.
Dismus Gallente Sigma Exploration	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Hannobaal The change is excessive. I second that. On the bright side, though, it might decrease the amount of solo PvPers out there who want to turn my Helios into a wreck while I explore. Originally by: Draeca Domi isn't ugly, it actually looks quite symphatic. I mean, a crossbreed of a whale and a potato.. Now how cute is that?
Mr Ignitious Gallente Kingpins	Posted - 2007.12.11 23:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Hannobaal The Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis and Maulus/Keres are not dead, but they are a LOT less effective that they were. Especially in gang/fleet. (In the case of the Keres it ended up being born this way.) The change (especially combined with the ECM ship boost) was seriously excessive. whats making me mad and laugh is that the keres is 42 mil in rens and the hyena is only 28mil lol who the hell is gonna pay 40 mil for what i think will be the worst EAS of the group?

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