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Cost of things.... Unfair?

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Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:44:00 - [1] I dont know, Im a new player... and it seems the cost of some things are out this wordly high. I mean, stuff that costs in the billions? How is that fair to new charectors? Does it seem like something needs to be done so newer players can get acess to High quality stuff, for not outrages prices... I know many of you will say we all started new at one point, but as far as i know, alot of the ways to make massive amounts of isk no longer exist, or are not possible anymore since patches and updates. For instance, Missions no longer drop modules worth 50 million, like Guristas Extrav used to with Prototype 425mms... Anyone get what im saying? it seems alot harder for new players to make isk these days (yes even in 0.0), and prices for ships are obscenely high. thoughts? plz dont flame. this is just what i see.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:45:00 - [2] It's fine. Thread over. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Larg Kellein Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:46:00 - [3] Nobody being new could ever afford the shiniest toys. Before my time, you were the bee's knees if you were able to fly a battleship, now people pop them like Pringles.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:46:00 - [4] For those things costing billions, take a look at the needed skills and compare to yours. There is a hell of a lot of difference, it takes over a year to get a charecter into a Dreadnaught - piloted decently.
Rubra J. S. Bach In memoriam	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:46:00 - [5] Edited by: Rubra on 11/12/2007 19:47:13 Nothing's wrong with the high-end stuff. You can't use it so why bother whinging about it.
Marcus Ailichi Lonely Maple Prospecting Group	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:47:00 - [6] I'm a miner, and even I could afford carrier which costs ~900mil with bit of effort. So no , things aren't overpriced. Besides you're not even supposed to get dreads and titans and such yourself, but with help of others.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Larg Kellein Nobody being new could ever afford the shiniest toys. Before my time, you were the bee's knees if you were able to fly a battleship, now people pop them like Pringles. what im saying is tho, it was alot easier back in the day to get the isk required for certain things... I remember doing lvl 4 missions in empire and making 100 mill off them.. now lvl 4's in 0.0 are great if they yeild 20mil. see the disparity?
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:48:00 - [8] Edited by: Tarminic on 11/12/2007 19:49:38 Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Larg Kellein Nobody being new could ever afford the shiniest toys. Before my time, you were the bee's knees if you were able to fly a battleship, now people pop them like Pringles. what im saying is tho, it was alot easier back in the day to get the isk required for certain things... I remember doing lvl 4 missions in empire and making 100 mill off them.. now lvl 4's in 0.0 are great if they yeild 20mil. see the disparity? But you're not taking into account the massive deflation that resulted from the T2 market crash. Yes incomes have falling, but I would say that purchasing power has not changed or even increased. If you're talking about faction modules, those are extreme outliers, so you can't honestly include them in your calculations. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Shadow Engineer Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:49:00 - [9] It's a player driven market. Things sell for what people will pay for them. If you can't afford the best named stuff or that faction gear, then that's just to damn bad for you. Welcome to EVE. Making ISK is easier than ever by the way. There's no reason new players should be flying around in faction and capital ships, anyway.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo.
Gannor Aton InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:50:00 - [11] Well first off, make an honest living doing the Jita/Perimeter missions. Having a high rep with Caldari Navy will help out later in game and is definately an easy way as a beginner to get isk and rep. Just be honest about your gameplay. To beg = to dead. People will flame you to no end if you resort to primal means and in no way will you be found innocent. I truly have great respect for the founders (not just the dev's, the first year founders that found glitches, etc.). You will find if you make yourself an honest and hard living your character will be seen as an asset to possible corp's, which will then boost your notoriety, then when you start trading you will start making connections, money, badda-bing, badda-boom. Cheer up though m8, it's hard for the first 2-3 months, but follow what I say and you'll do just fine :) nullGannor Aton nullAgressor for INTG-IRON Alliance nullFarmer of Space Cows
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. And how does this impact new players more than older players? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:52:00 - [13] Originally by: Gannor Aton Well first off, make an honest living doing the Jita/Perimeter missions. Having a high rep with Caldari Navy will help out later in game and is definately an easy way as a beginner to get isk and rep. Just be honest about your gameplay. To beg = to dead. People will flame you to no end if you resort to primal means and in no way will you be found innocent. I truly have great respect for the founders (not just the dev's, the first year founders that found glitches, etc.). You will find if you make yourself an honest and hard living your character will be seen as an asset to possible corp's, which will then boost your notoriety, then when you start trading you will start making connections, money, badda-bing, badda-boom. Cheer up though m8, it's hard for the first 2-3 months, but follow what I say and you'll do just fine :) oh trust me im not begging, its just something ive noticed starting new in the game... i mean, im already in 0.0 doing lvl 3 missions, and it just seems incredibly slow, and it seems the income from missions is signifcantly lower than what prices have fallen too.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. And how does this impact new players more than older players? Older players have already accumulated billions of isk when it was easier? newer players struggle to get a fraction of that???
Gannor Aton InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:56:00 - [15] Ok, well you could be like some of the "true" newbs and buy their isk. That is why the market is high also on certain things, it's nothing for someone who has the cash in RL to pop out 50-100 bucks for the isk needed for the high-end things, thusly why you have the inflation on certain things. Take heed, these players that have been doing their livings (as posted above) know what they are talking about. i still consider myself a newb @ 6.5 mil sp, and I've learned more from INTG members, Reprissa, Madd Dok and Disiegor (to name a few) than i did when I first started. PvP based areas are dangerous for you if you aren't in a corp yet also. If you are a solo person great, but best to build ties like a said before and contribute to others. nullGannor Aton nullAgressor for INTG-IRON Alliance nullFarmer of Space Cows
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Esharan Older players have already accumulated billions of isk when it was easier? newer players struggle to get a fraction of that??? You're vastly overestimating the savings of older players...even if they have, over the course of their EVE careers, acquired billions of ISK, they've most likely spent the vast majority of it already. Also, I'm an "older player" and I have less than 20 million ISK in my wallet. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Gannor Aton Ok, well you could be like some of the "true" newbs and buy their isk. That is why the market is high also on certain things, it's nothing for someone who has the cash in RL to pop out 50-100 bucks for the isk needed for the high-end things, thusly why you have the inflation on certain things. Take heed, these players that have been doing their livings (as posted above) know what they are talking about. i still consider myself a newb @ 6.5 mil sp, and I've learned more from INTG members, Reprissa, Madd Dok and Disiegor (to name a few) than i did when I first started. PvP based areas are dangerous for you if you aren't in a corp yet also. If you are a solo person great, but best to build ties like a said before and contribute to others. I'd never buy isk obviously ~ and im not a new player... im just a new charector.. so i know how the game functions (i hope) im just saying FOR new charectors, its harder... its easy for older charectors to ignore it, and probally alot of new people cant even find thier way to the forums to talk about it, but im sure if u guys think back, or started a new charector with nothing today, you might be surpirsed at how much harder it is to get anywhere than it used to be, i mean i remember even back after beta it didnt take us long to start pumpin in isk... how could it? with 80 million isk mods dropping from missions left and right, who remembers mission running in Saila? the lvl 4 agents Guristas Extrav was a isk sink... you could make 300-500 million isk in a few hours imo. Now thats gone with right.... how do new players catch up to the billions we (older charectors) have already made or had the chance to make.. not flaming, i just feel bad for the little guy lately, especially after getting rid of my old charectors and starting new i realize its a whole new game, and alot harder for us (new charectors) than it was back in the day.. imo.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:03:00 - [18] I have been in EVE for 4+ years so trust me when I say earning money is far easier today than it ever has been. As someone mentioned above there was a time when getting into a battleship was the most uber thing you could do and it took literally weeks of work to afford one. Now I can earn enough on L4 missions alone in a good day of missioning to buy one. And while a wealthy player certainly has advantages by being in the game longer that is true of any game. You do not start any game the wealthiest or with the most leet gear but have to work up to it and all the people ahead of you can do that more easily. Besides, while someone may be wealthy that can go rather quickly. When you are flying ships worth billions (ship cost plus mods such as carriers and dreads) you do not have to lose too many before all the but the most wealthy of players would feel the pinch. In the meantime joining a player run corp is a good way to bootstrap new players into better stuff faster. Corps differ of course but for instance in my corp I will often split a mining Op 50/50 despite them being in an Osprey and me a Hulk. Add to that we sell ships/mods to members at cost (and in the case of frigs usually just give them away). Help them in missions and so on. Lots of ways to improve your efficiency when hooked-up with more senior players and most will help younger members in that.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Esharan Older players have already accumulated billions of isk when it was easier? newer players struggle to get a fraction of that??? You're vastly overestimating the savings of older players...even if they have, over the course of their EVE careers, acquired billions of ISK, they've most likely spent the vast majority of it already. Also, I'm an "older player" and I have less than 20 million ISK in my wallet. oh well no doubt theres a wide range of how much people have... but what assets do you have? a carrier? loads of HAC's/battleships, Command ships? all of which are signficantly harder to get too these days, i mean sure when they came out it was easy for me to buy them all too, and my "wallet" went down, but at least i had accumlated the money required to buy those ships... new guys today, no way they can get the money req'd to buy a carrier as fast as "many" of us did.. 3 years sure we had under our belts before they came out.. but did it really take u 3 years to make ur billions? doubt it.. im not flaming, im just saying it really seems as if a disparity between the upper and lower classes has formed... (not intended to be a political argument) but it does parralel the RW right? i mean give the new guys a chance to get to where we are... in economics its called the Catch Up effect... but theres no catch up effect in eve, and im thinking thier should be...
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:08:00 - [20] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 11/12/2007 20:10:17 It's hard to compare, but I'm just about certain it's easier for newer players running missions to make isk and buy decent stuff now than it was when I started about 2 years ago. Primary reasons being salvage profits; rigs, ship, and mission changes making them much easier; and invention drastically lowering the prices of most T2 modules and ships. The notable mission loot finds are a lot rarer and less lucrative, but I think mainly those were more exciting than actually impacting isk over time much. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. i beg to differ, i yoinked a harbinger armageddon and apocalypse off of some noob the otehr day when i asked him to trade em over so i could see his settups, one of the easyest 200 mill ive ever made --------------------------- Im in your systemz scanning your moonz
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:09:00 - [22] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I have been in EVE for 4+ years so trust me when I say earning money is far easier today than it ever has been. As someone mentioned above there was a time when getting into a battleship was the most uber thing you could do and it took literally weeks of work to afford one. Now I can earn enough on L4 missions alone in a good day of missioning to buy one. And while a wealthy player certainly has advantages by being in the game longer that is true of any game. You do not start any game the wealthiest or with the most leet gear but have to work up to it and all the people ahead of you can do that more easily. Besides, while someone may be wealthy that can go rather quickly. When you are flying ships worth billions (ship cost plus mods such as carriers and dreads) you do not have to lose too many before all the but the most wealthy of players would feel the pinch. In the meantime joining a player run corp is a good way to bootstrap new players into better stuff faster. Corps differ of course but for instance in my corp I will often split a mining Op 50/50 despite them being in an Osprey and me a Hulk. Add to that we sell ships/mods to members at cost (and in the case of frigs usually just give them away). Help them in missions and so on. Lots of ways to improve your efficiency when hooked-up with more senior players and most will help younger members in that. thats my point... of course you can make the money to buy a BS in quickly, your highly trained, already have the assets to do the missions solo ect. ect. what about a month old charector thats been spammin lvl 1's, 2's and 3's all of which now give significantly less reward... it takes double the time i'd say than it used to... and iplayed back when a BS was a godsend too.. but then it was more because we were all new, and it just took that time to train the skill... i remember pretty much as soon as i could fly a BS i could afford one... with my new char, with my exp. in making isk... i can fly a BS but am sitting as 32 million... ages away from being able to buy a raven because missions just dont yeild the same isk they used too.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:10:00 - [23] Originally by: Arvald Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. i beg to differ, i yoinked a harbinger armageddon and apocalypse off of some noob the otehr day when i asked him to trade em over so i could see his settups, one of the easyest 200 mill ive ever made this brings another point.. even scamming is signifcanly harder... i wont lie, back in the day i made a quick 900 mill of a scam... part of the game if u ask me, and now there are to man protections against it.
Maestro Ulv Edyta Enterprises Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:11:00 - [24] Isk is extremely easy to make these days, old or new has nothing to do with it bar the initial outlay you spend to make more money. Mission money making may have changed I don't know, as I no longer do them. You can however make plenty of money on the markets, far more than you could when I first started this game years ago. Invest some fo your mission money on the market and corner a section of it, its easy done, even in Jita. When that corner runs dry find another one, theres a lot of corners out in space!
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:11:00 - [25] Edited by: Arvald on 11/12/2007 20:11:46 Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Arvald Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. i beg to differ, i yoinked a harbinger armageddon and apocalypse off of some noob the otehr day when i asked him to trade em over so i could see his settups, one of the easyest 200 mill ive ever made this brings another point.. even scamming is signifcanly harder... i wont lie, back in the day i made a quick 900 mill of a scam... part of the game if u ask me, and now there are to man protections against it. no its not hard, several times ive made nearly a billion in collaterall with trying to get a bs bpo coughbpccough researched. your jstu not doing it right --------------------------- Im in your systemz scanning your moonz
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:11:00 - [26] Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Esharan Older players have already accumulated billions of isk when it was easier? newer players struggle to get a fraction of that??? You're vastly overestimating the savings of older players...even if they have, over the course of their EVE careers, acquired billions of ISK, they've most likely spent the vast majority of it already. Also, I'm an "older player" and I have less than 20 million ISK in my wallet. oh well no doubt theres a wide range of how much people have... but what assets do you have? a carrier? loads of HAC's/battleships, Command ships? all of which are signficantly harder to get too these days, i mean sure when they came out it was easy for me to buy them all too, and my "wallet" went down, but at least i had accumlated the money required to buy those ships Currently, I own a Hulk and 3 Battleships, plus an assortment of smaller ships...my total wealth, estimating generously, about 300 million ISK. Also, T2 ships are much easier to purchase now due to invention, things like HACs and Command Ships cost half or less than their previous costs? So players who already owned those things were actually losing half of their initial investment due to deflation in the market. The same occurred with T2 modules. Older players with "billions" of ISK in assets lost about 70% of that considering the price of most T2 modules are 20% to 5% their pre-invention prices. Quote: in economics its called the Catch Up effect... but theres no catch up effect in eve, and im thinking thier should be... There absolutely is, actually, because ships are consumable products. Carriers die, equipment is lost, clones and implants have to be replaced. Even assuming the income of a 3 year old player is ten times that of a six month old player, they still have many additional expenses that keeps things in check. In addition, how does these players having all of this income affect you personally? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Esharan thats my point... of course you can make the money to buy a BS in quickly, your highly trained, already have the assets to do the missions solo ect. ect. what about a month old charector thats been spammin lvl 1's, 2's and 3's all of which now give significantly less reward... it takes double the time i'd say than it used to... and iplayed back when a BS was a godsend too.. but then it was more because we were all new, and it just took that time to train the skill... i remember pretty much as soon as i could fly a BS i could afford one... with my new char, with my exp. in making isk... i can fly a BS but am sitting as 32 million... ages away from being able to buy a raven because missions just dont yeild the same isk they used too. While a new character can technically "fly" a battleship in short order after starting I would say that by the time they are actually any good to fly a battleship they will have the money to afford one. I have seen all too often new players arrow into a battleship because they think it is the uber thing when in fact they suck at it because their fitting and gunnery skills and other support skills are terrible. Usually you are better using a frig for L1/L2 missions and a Cruiser/BC for L3 missions and a Battleship for L4s. By the time you have skills to fit a battleship decently and solo L4s chances are enough time as passed to afford one.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:14:00 - [28] I just feel like something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-up_effect should be in effect.. helping new players get to experiance the awesome stuff older players do more quickly no not in a few weeks or even months, but ya know what i mean?.. I know catch up effect is a economic theory, but it also applies to individuals, or at least could if you ask me. It makes sense too... thanks for your responses people, just wanted to give my opinion on what i noticed starting new... I challenge any long time player to start a new charector, recieve no help from alts or freinds, and see if its easier, or more difficult to make isk, and make it in the galaxy than it was several years ago. Let us know what your experiances are.
Anell Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:14:00 - [29] I don't think things are all that expensive really. Even a year after tech 2 came out those modules would be incredibly expensive. Now they are often the middle of the road in price as compared to other named modules and are easily affordable. A character less then a month old might have a tech 2 module or more. I also think that salvage has greatly increased the ability for players to earn wealth as compared to what players used to be able to earn. I agree that mission rewards have gone down but the prices you are talking about do not take into account salvage. The reward from even modest salvaging expeditions can be great. Especially to a new player starting off.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Esharan I challenge any long time player to start a new charector, recieve no help from alts or freinds, and see if its easier, or more difficult to make isk, and make it in the galaxy than it was several years ago. Let us know what your experiances are. I have done it. I came back to EVE after about a 1 year break about 1.5 years ago. At that time I started a new character and had at it. Was loads easier than when I did it the first time around. The only downside was I knew what having more skillpoints was like and it kinda stunk starting with a newbie character but making money was no problem at all.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:23:00 - [31] Again thanks to everyone for your responses. Its interesting to see what the community thinks these days.. Its possible im wrong and just forgetting myself what it was like years ago... and perhaps its possible it really has gotten harder... either way, thanks again and keep the comments coming if you wish, its interesting to see what you all have to say.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:24:00 - [32] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Esharan I challenge any long time player to start a new charector, recieve no help from alts or freinds, and see if its easier, or more difficult to make isk, and make it in the galaxy than it was several years ago. Let us know what your experiances are. I have done it. I came back to EVE after about a 1 year break about 1.5 years ago. At that time I started a new character and had at it. Was loads easier than when I did it the first time around. The only downside was I knew what having more skillpoints was like and it kinda stunk starting with a newbie character but making money was no problem at all. Interesting, ok thanks Jora'h.. Anyone else have similar experiances?
Amuko Amarr Happy Little Roid Huggers	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:24:00 - [33] Edited by: Amuko on 11/12/2007 20:26:19 Edited by: Amuko on 11/12/2007 20:25:17 What are you smoking? I'm not a beta player myself, but from all I heard from (ex) corpmates that did, it was way, way, waaay harder back then to get into a BS then it is now. Also, everything is way cheaper now (and especially tech II stuff), when I started (close to 2 years ago I think), a cap recharger II was...20mil, now it's what, 1.3mil? Invention made fitting your ships decently so much easier. I agree you make a bit less isk on missions then you used to, but you need way less to fit a ship now anyway. Edit: Sounds more agressive then I mean it, sorry . I checked your employment history ingame, if this is your new char, and you're a bit over half a month old, and you say you're ready for a BS? Hell no you're not, you'll need a few months of training at least to be able to fly it anyway decently.
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Esharan Again thanks to everyone for your responses. Its interesting to see what the community thinks these days.. Its possible im wrong and just forgetting myself what it was like years ago... and perhaps its possible it really has gotten harder... either way, thanks again and keep the comments coming if you wish, its interesting to see what you all have to say. hell if you want to learn some really effective scams jstu convo me ingame, im always happy to help out --------------------------- Im in your systemz scanning your moonz
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Amuko Edited by: Amuko on 11/12/2007 20:25:17 What are you smoking? I'm not a beta player myself, but from all I heard from (ex) corpmates that did, it was way, way, waaay harder back then to get into a BS then it is now. Also, everything is way cheaper now (and especially tech II stuff), when I started (close to 2 years ago I think), a cap recharger II was...20mil, now it's what, 1.3mil? Invention made fitting your ships decently so much easier. I agree you make a bit less isk on missions then you used to, but you need way less to fit a ship now anyway. I checked your employment history ingame, if this is your new char, and you're a bit over half a month old, and you say you're ready for a BS? Hell no you're not, you'll need a few months of training at least to be able to fly it anyway decently. Good points, no need to get angry.. but yea i can fly a raven ish... i mean i can use siege launchers, shield hardeners, t2 ballistic controls, power diag 2's and xlarge shield boosters.. its a basic fitting, but i think i could do easy lvl 4's dont you?
Larg Kellein Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:27:00 - [36] Edited by: Larg Kellein on 11/12/2007 20:29:47 Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I have been in EVE for 4+ years so trust me when I say earning money is far easier today than it ever has been. As someone mentioned above there was a time when getting into a battleship was the most uber thing you could do and it took literally weeks of work to afford one. Now I can earn enough on L4 missions alone in a good day of missioning to buy one. And while a wealthy player certainly has advantages by being in the game longer that is true of any game. You do not start any game the wealthiest or with the most leet gear but have to work up to it and all the people ahead of you can do that more easily. Besides, while someone may be wealthy that can go rather quickly. When you are flying ships worth billions (ship cost plus mods such as carriers and dreads) you do not have to lose too many before all the but the most wealthy of players would feel the pinch. In the meantime joining a player run corp is a good way to bootstrap new players into better stuff faster. Corps differ of course but for instance in my corp I will often split a mining Op 50/50 despite them being in an Osprey and me a Hulk. Add to that we sell ships/mods to members at cost (and in the case of frigs usually just give them away). Help them in missions and so on. Lots of ways to improve your efficiency when hooked-up with more senior players and most will help younger members in that. thats my point... of course you can make the money to buy a BS in quickly, your highly trained, already have the assets to do the missions solo ect. ect. what about a month old charector thats been spammin lvl 1's, 2's and 3's all of which now give significantly less reward... it takes double the time i'd say than it used to... and iplayed back when a BS was a godsend too.. but then it was more because we were all new, and it just took that time to train the skill... i remember pretty much as soon as i could fly a BS i could afford one... with my new char, with my exp. in making isk... i can fly a BS but am sitting as 32 million... ages away from being able to buy a raven because missions just dont yeild the same isk they used too. The problem is that mission running (specifically level 4s in empire) was disproportionally profitable compared to other sources of income, including mining and even 0.0 ratting, and that's completely ignoring the lack of reward for the added risk of lowsec which is still limiting the choice to either empire or 0.0 for money making for a huge segment of players. So yes, level 4 running in empire is less profitable than it used to (I know, I did more of my share of them before I joined my current corp), but the money making options are still out there. For example, look at exploration. Being able to somewhat reliably pick up things like encryption skillbooks is a nice way to make money and doesn't require years of training. There's also salvaging, which is an easy way to make isk for new players that was not previously available. And with the LP store, you've eliminated the previously random factor of agent offers more more reliable income. So as others have mentioned, you may make less isk now, but (ridiculos items like officer mods aside) the purchasing power of that isk hasn't really diminished, considering the price drop on inventable items.
Amuko Amarr Happy Little Roid Huggers	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:28:00 - [37] Meh, guess so, I'm not a caldari pilot, and let me tell you something, try it in another race's battleships, now that's hard at 15 days
Shadow Engineer Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:31:00 - [38] This is why new people don't need to be in large expensive ships: http://kb.endless-horizon.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3828
MasterEnt	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:32:00 - [39] I KNOW.. like when I was 6 years old... when I had contributed nothing to the world or my own personal wealth... a Ferrari for $100,00 was SOOOO unfair.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar Core Element	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:33:00 - [40] speeking as a relatively new character and new player I can say with certantie that EVE has the easiest time of any mmo out there to make money. With salvage I'm pulling in 1-2 million per level 2 mission. for a new player that is alot. its mods and frigates to lose in pvp. Now if I stayed at that rate ofcouse I can't get things like cariers and the like but at the level I was at then I wouldnt be able to fly one. In my experiential opinion my income increases in tandem with my need for it. I'm running lvl 3 missions now (with lvl 4 access but unsoloable) and ratting in 0.0 and my income is 20 million an hour. Now if I actually spent 5 hours at a time doing that I'd be rich very quickly for what I want but as I tend to only do it for 2 hours then there you go. two more ships to destroy in pvp :D. Final thought is that its not the isk making ability that is gimped but your expectation that is overextended. Search: Sky Grunthor
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:33:00 - [41] Thanks Larg for your response, makes alot of sense to me.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:39:00 - [42] if you skill up and play the game you will find ways to make hundreds of millions a month maybe billions if you spend a little more time if you do nothing but post on the forums you will never afford a battleship even without fittings Trashed sig, Shark was here
Karma Gallente Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:44:00 - [43] this isn't a game where everything drops into your lap after a day, a week, or a month or even for several years. the things that cost in the billions, you can't really use them 'correctly' until your character is atleast a year old. (as in, has the support skills for it). by the time you do have the skills for it, though... you'll probably also have the ISK to buy them. if you focus ;-)
Franga Caldari NQX Innovations Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:50:00 - [44] Originally by: Arvald A lot of stuff about how he's superior at ISK making. This guy is also a died in the blood scammer. _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.
Zinras	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:51:00 - [45] Edited by: Zinras on 11/12/2007 20:52:05 I can't say anything about how easy it was to make ISK back in the day but I do know that making ISK now is pretty damn easy. The age of my character lies a bit since I made it on a trial in the beginning of the year and only payed for it this summer (so I'm really some 5-6 months old). I've already had 2 Ravens, 6 Drakes and god knows how many frigs/cruisers/ other stuf in that time and I'm a pretty casual player (doing 2-3 missions per day and go hunting once in a while). And honestly, if I didn't spend ISK on stuff I don't really need, I could buy a Raven every week and fit it with no problem at all. I could even take a break from the Raven buying for a week and buy myself a full set of +4 implants using the LP store.. So yeah, getting stuff is pretty easy and if you're in a corp with nice people like I am, you can get stuff even easier by loaning some ISK or get part of the profits from a mining op, not to mention there are PvP ships available for free etc
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:02:00 - [46] Edited by: Arvald on 11/12/2007 21:03:28 Originally by: Franga Originally by: Arvald A lot of stuff about how he's superior at ISK making. This guy is also a died in the blood scammer. eh? and i wasnt saying i am superior at making isk....well....ok i guess i was and jsut because im good at making isk dosent mean im good at keeping it, i have a soft spot for helping out noobs i keep maby 40% of what get yeah sad i know --------------------------- Im in your systemz scanning your moonz
mechtech Silver Snake Enterprise	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:06:00 - [47] It's sooo much easier now than it used to be. A BS used to actually be a rich person's toy.
Terail Zoqial	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:34:00 - [48] Man, that's soooooo funny, I mean in any other game...or in life, you don't expect things to be so easily available. As for the "it seems alot harder for new players to make isk these days", ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS?!?!. It's **** easy to make isk these days, rly. I would share my info but that would mean peeps swarming my lovely isk making machines and being poorer again when I'm feeling lazy. You players today don't know how easy you have it with your T2, battle cruisers, destroyers. When I were a noob all we had was BS's, cruisers, frigs, industrials and shuttles. You have it so easy these days today it's freaking incredible, why the hell do you want a capital anyhoo's?, and what will you do when it gets 'sploded?. You crazy kids
Bizz Lizz	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:43:00 - [49] Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 11/12/2007 21:43:58 Originally by: Esharan belts before they came out.. but did it really take u 3 years to make ur billions? doubt it.. im not flaming, im just saying it really seems as if a disparity between the upper and lower classes has formed.... 1) Not every vet is rich. Many vets don't have billions, but wasted it all in pvp and are poor compared to some younger empire dwellers. 2) tech-2 equipment is really cheap since invention and that's the usual stuff that most players use, once they have the skillpoints. 3) one of my corp mates is doing exploration stuff and made over 2 bil with it not long ago in a single week. So the means to make isk seem to be still good, if you are up for some virtual work
Estephania	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:51:00 - [50] Edited by: Estephania on 11/12/2007 21:56:30 CCP gives you a nice way of keeping up with T2 prices (which are not cheap, just not that outrageously high as before). Create another account and dedicate it solely for ISK making. Then you'll be able to afford T2 ships (like HACs and Command Ships) when you have the skills. Without it, I can't see you surviving past the 7 months mark. PvPing in T2 stuff is an expensive hobby and you need some serious ISK making in order to do it without being forced to grind your *** off when you lose a HAC or a Command Ship. My main has around 2.5 bill ISK and I still don't think I can afford PvPing in HACs and Recons, let alone Command Ships, because this was accumulated over a long period of time. Tbh, I estimate that the steady income of above 600-800 mill per month is barely ok for regular PvPing with T2 cruisers and above.
Jenina Hawke Minmatar Core Domination Big Bang Quantum	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:57:00 - [51] At some point in your replies you state that you live in 0.0 and do level 3 missions there. That's going to pay about as well as level 4 missions in Empire with less time spent. I started out helping out in level 4 missions in a kestrel. Now others help me and earn part of my bounties - but we have fun together and I finish my missions faster => I finish more missions => I get more storylines => I get access to better agents... I don't think it is that hard to earn ISK in Eve. I manage to pay for 3 accounts in GTC, keep 3 characters in battleships and t2 gear, +4 implants and skillbooks - and still have the ISK to be an investor in my corp. Missions may not drop faction loot, but exploration sites do. So do faction rats - and officers of course drop officer loot. And sure, you can be part of that even with a relatively young character, if you are in a corp that shares and cares. Ratting as a pair of battlecruisers is possible in most 0.0 systems. Jen *** No signature is good enough *** DGAF Newbie Guide
Valan The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:13:00 - [52] Its as easy now to make isk as its ever been. 4 years ago there were no missions and the biggest rats were cruisers. But apart from that why do you expect high end game play when you've just started? If you cut to the end game was is there left for you to do? /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
FreeMarket Incognito Inc	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:13:00 - [53] Prices are based on supply and demand, go get your food stamps somewhere else. Save EVE TV, Save the World! *www.Save-EveTV.com*
Occara	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:14:00 - [54] TROLL SCORE 0/10 In the first post the troll is a new player. A few posts later the troll is suddenly a years old player. don't feed the troll.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:15:00 - [55] Originally by: Esharan Edited by: Esharan on 11/12/2007 20:21:37 I dont know, Im a new player... and it seems the cost of some things are out this wordly high. I mean, stuff that costs in the billions? How is that fair to new charectors? Does it seem like something needs to be done so newer players can get acess to High quality stuff, for not outrages prices... I know many of you will say we all started new at one point, but as far as i know, alot of the ways to make massive amounts of isk no longer exist, or are not possible anymore since patches and updates. For instance, Missions no longer drop modules worth 50 million, like Guristas Extrav used to with Prototype 425mms... Anyone get what im saying? it seems alot harder for new players to make isk these days (yes even in 0.0), and prices for ships are obscenely high. thoughts? plz dont flame. this is just what i see. not a whine or a flame from me eiether just some observations. no, nobody gets what you are saying. If anything things have gotten incredibly cheap, CAP recharger II's use to go for 25 mil and now they are like 2 mil. If something costs 1 billion, there is 100% chance you can't use it anyway because your a new player. Is it just me or since we hit 40k we got alot of people playing who aren't happy for some reason and think everything is either, too tough, too expensive, too dangerous, takes too long. I mean FFS, how are other MMO's i haven't played any but this one, and if they are as easy as these folks want this one to be, WHAT IS THE POINT IN PLAYING!?!?!?!? tic tac toe is easy, fair, and balanced, go play that
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:16:00 - [56] Some things are absurd, but if nothing else it prevents newbies from getting uberexpensive stuff way before they understand enough of the game to make use of it, or hell, even survive in it. When ebay newbies get a hold of a lot of cash and a 50M SP character, things like the legendary "honor tank" incident happen. If nothing else, the prices prevent newbies from doing monumentally stupid things. In this game it's not such a bad thing, because losses matter. See: 'A fool and his money are soon parted' and other various adages. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Karma Gallente Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:18:00 - [57] Originally by: Terail Zoqial ... all we had was BS's, cruisers, frigs, industrials and shuttles. 'veteran' and 'newbie' are such relative terms ;-)
Estephania	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:19:00 - [58] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 11/12/2007 21:56:30 CCP gives you a nice way of keeping up with T2 prices (which are not cheap, just not that outrageously high as before). Create another account and dedicate it solely for ISK making. Then you'll be able to afford T2 ships (like HACs and Command Ships) when you have the skills. Without it, I can't see you surviving past the 7 months mark. PvPing in T2 stuff is an expensive hobby and you need some serious ISK making in order to do it without being forced to grind your *** off when you lose a HAC or a Command Ship. My main has around 2.5 bill ISK and I still don't think I can afford PvPing in HACs and Recons, let alone Command Ships, because this was accumulated over a long period of time. Tbh, I estimate that the steady income of above 600-800 mill per month is barely ok for regular PvPing with T2 cruisers and above. I have 3 accounts, and you have WAY more money than me or any of the people I fight alongside. Seriously, I have just over 600M. We fly T2 ships. I suggest you quit whining - seriously, your anti-alt crusade is getting really old - and get in a ship. If you can run your guns half as well as you run your cry-hole, you'll do pretty well. Why do you think it's a crusade. Yes, I hate metagaming (both with alts and GTCs) but in this case it was an advice for a new player, so that he will avoid ISK problems I had. Don't know how you fight alongside ppl in 0.0 and they have way less ISK than me. I fight alongside ppl who make my wallet look like a pocket change, that's why I don't consider myself rich by any means, more like average or slightly below. And no one is whining... 600-800 mill per month is something that I hope to achieve in the near future .
d'hofren Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:21:00 - [59] Edited by: d''hofren on 11/12/2007 22:21:45 Originally by: Valan Its as easy now to make isk as its ever been. 4 years ago there were no missions and the biggest rats were cruisers. But apart from that why do you expect high end game play when you've just started? If you cut to the end game was is there left for you to do? Remember the ship progression then went.... Frig..... cruiser .... Battleship.. There were no Destroyers and BC's to make thing easier. Every bit of hauling was done in indies as well, no mates with frieghters, no corp mates with carriers to leap the stuff around for you... If anything the game has suffered from the ease of isk making now. Battleships used to be a bit special. Now days anyone with a miner II or three and a tier II cruiser can be in one within a few months.
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:23:00 - [60] I wouldnt say its unfair, but it definitey means that fighting isnt as interesting as it could have been if theres no penalty for leeroying it. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Jason Kildaro Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps 5th Column	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:28:00 - [61] Originally by: pyr8t The original poster has a point. It is tough as a newer player....while it's true T2 items are cheaper it doesn't really matter because most "new players" aren't out there buying T2 command ships. If you're buying that, you're not a "new player".... see what I mean? I think in particular though, running level 4 missions just doesn't yield enough ISK. It's a shame because the grind to level 4's is a real pain, and once you get their it's pointless compared to the ISK one can make either mining in his battleship or 0.0 ratting. A level 4 mission yields on the average of 10 million ISK, and can be accomplished in about an hour. If you salvage and loot you can do about 2 missions, salvaged and looted in about 3.5 hours and you should net about 25 million. At that rate you can earn the money for a Tier 3 battleship, tech 2 fitted, in a full week. And that is playing rather casually. I don't think that is such a bad deal for TOP items in the game.
mishkof Caldari Shadows of Valor Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 22:56:00 - [62] Nope. Use the market to look at the moving average for the cost of goods. Everything is cheaper. You can buy all the mid modules for a T2 raven for what it used to cost for 1 unvul field for example. Invention. I own a T2 BPO and have a Capital alt. Please hate/troll/smack me.
Heten Oviri	Posted - 2007.12.12 01:37:00 - [63] Originally by: Esharan I dont know, Im a new player... and it seems the cost of some things are out this wordly high. I mean, stuff that costs in the billions? How is that fair to new charectors? Does it seem like something needs to be done so newer players can get acess to High quality stuff, for not outrages prices... I don't know when you started that it was so easy to make billions of ISK. I started playing in 2006 before invention was introduced. I was making about the same amount of ISK on missions and ratting and mining as I can make now - 10-30 million per hour. When i was browsing the market I would be staring at 30 mil cap recharger II's, 25 mil cargo expander II's, 550 mil hulks, 20+ mil assault frigates, etc. and wondering how the hell could anyone afford to pvp or mine in this. That was when i started. Then came invention and prices have fallen by 50-90% on tech II items. Following tech II items, the named items have fallen in price. Income from missions wasn't much affected, because not often did good mods drop from mission loot. Income from mining in high sec has probably came up since high sec mins came up in prices. 0.0 and low sec ratters as well as pirates have been affected the most - their income decreased with the removal of complexes and decrease in prices for best named and tech II loot. But, instead we had new profitable opportunities introduced into the game. DED space loot that came from complexes went up in price 30-50% making exploration be quite profitable. Invention spread the wealth from those few tech II BPO owners to many other players who started inventing with their science alts. As the economic report has shown, the amount of money per account has increased and so has the purchasing power. This caused an overall inflation. Some items decreased in price (tech II mods, ships, and named loot) or stayed same (tech I ships, non-named mods). Some items came up in prices - faction and DED space items most certainly went up. I personally find that it is easier to afford tech II and best named equipment now than when it cost much much more over a year ago now that it dropped 50-90% in price. That's what people used to pvp in then, and that's what they use now - only it is much more affordable. As for faction and DED loot, those items are not supposed to be available to you first 3-6 months of the game because those are like end-game items and yes they do cost billions. And there is absolutely nothing unfair in this that vet players who played this game for 1+ year get easier access to end-game items.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.12 01:40:00 - [64] Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 11/12/2007 21:56:30 CCP gives you a nice way of keeping up with T2 prices (which are not cheap, just not that outrageously high as before). Create another account and dedicate it solely for ISK making. Then you'll be able to afford T2 ships (like HACs and Command Ships) when you have the skills. Without it, I can't see you surviving past the 7 months mark. PvPing in T2 stuff is an expensive hobby and you need some serious ISK making in order to do it without being forced to grind your *** off when you lose a HAC or a Command Ship. My main has around 2.5 bill ISK and I still don't think I can afford PvPing in HACs and Recons, let alone Command Ships, because this was accumulated over a long period of time. Tbh, I estimate that the steady income of above 600-800 mill per month is barely ok for regular PvPing with T2 cruisers and above. I have 3 accounts, and you have WAY more money than me or any of the people I fight alongside. Seriously, I have just over 600M. We fly T2 ships. I suggest you quit whining - seriously, your anti-alt crusade is getting really old - and get in a ship. If you can run your guns half as well as you run your cry-hole, you'll do pretty well. Why do you think it's a crusade. Yes, I hate metagaming (both with alts and GTCs) but in this case it was an advice for a new player, so that he will avoid ISK problems I had. Don't know how you fight alongside ppl in 0.0 and they have way less ISK than me. I fight alongside ppl who make my wallet look like a pocket change, that's why I don't consider myself rich by any means, more like average or slightly below. And no one is whining... 600-800 mill per month is something that I hope to achieve in the near future . Whoopdedoo for you. You CAN afford to fly HACs and even Command ships. How many ships do you lose that you consider that 2.5B isn't enough to fly a 50-80M ship? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

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