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Cost of things.... Unfair?

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Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:44:00 - [1] I dont know, Im a new player... and it seems the cost of some things are out this wordly high. I mean, stuff that costs in the billions? How is that fair to new charectors? Does it seem like something needs to be done so newer players can get acess to High quality stuff, for not outrages prices... I know many of you will say we all started new at one point, but as far as i know, alot of the ways to make massive amounts of isk no longer exist, or are not possible anymore since patches and updates. For instance, Missions no longer drop modules worth 50 million, like Guristas Extrav used to with Prototype 425mms... Anyone get what im saying? it seems alot harder for new players to make isk these days (yes even in 0.0), and prices for ships are obscenely high. thoughts? plz dont flame. this is just what i see.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:45:00 - [2] It's fine. Thread over. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Larg Kellein Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:46:00 - [3] Nobody being new could ever afford the shiniest toys. Before my time, you were the bee's knees if you were able to fly a battleship, now people pop them like Pringles.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:46:00 - [4] For those things costing billions, take a look at the needed skills and compare to yours. There is a hell of a lot of difference, it takes over a year to get a charecter into a Dreadnaught - piloted decently.
Rubra J. S. Bach In memoriam	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:46:00 - [5] Edited by: Rubra on 11/12/2007 19:47:13 Nothing's wrong with the high-end stuff. You can't use it so why bother whinging about it.
Marcus Ailichi Lonely Maple Prospecting Group	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:47:00 - [6] I'm a miner, and even I could afford carrier which costs ~900mil with bit of effort. So no , things aren't overpriced. Besides you're not even supposed to get dreads and titans and such yourself, but with help of others.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Larg Kellein Nobody being new could ever afford the shiniest toys. Before my time, you were the bee's knees if you were able to fly a battleship, now people pop them like Pringles. what im saying is tho, it was alot easier back in the day to get the isk required for certain things... I remember doing lvl 4 missions in empire and making 100 mill off them.. now lvl 4's in 0.0 are great if they yeild 20mil. see the disparity?
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:48:00 - [8] Edited by: Tarminic on 11/12/2007 19:49:38 Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Larg Kellein Nobody being new could ever afford the shiniest toys. Before my time, you were the bee's knees if you were able to fly a battleship, now people pop them like Pringles. what im saying is tho, it was alot easier back in the day to get the isk required for certain things... I remember doing lvl 4 missions in empire and making 100 mill off them.. now lvl 4's in 0.0 are great if they yeild 20mil. see the disparity? But you're not taking into account the massive deflation that resulted from the T2 market crash. Yes incomes have falling, but I would say that purchasing power has not changed or even increased. If you're talking about faction modules, those are extreme outliers, so you can't honestly include them in your calculations. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Shadow Engineer Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:49:00 - [9] It's a player driven market. Things sell for what people will pay for them. If you can't afford the best named stuff or that faction gear, then that's just to damn bad for you. Welcome to EVE. Making ISK is easier than ever by the way. There's no reason new players should be flying around in faction and capital ships, anyway.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo.
Gannor Aton InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:50:00 - [11] Well first off, make an honest living doing the Jita/Perimeter missions. Having a high rep with Caldari Navy will help out later in game and is definately an easy way as a beginner to get isk and rep. Just be honest about your gameplay. To beg = to dead. People will flame you to no end if you resort to primal means and in no way will you be found innocent. I truly have great respect for the founders (not just the dev's, the first year founders that found glitches, etc.). You will find if you make yourself an honest and hard living your character will be seen as an asset to possible corp's, which will then boost your notoriety, then when you start trading you will start making connections, money, badda-bing, badda-boom. Cheer up though m8, it's hard for the first 2-3 months, but follow what I say and you'll do just fine :) nullGannor Aton nullAgressor for INTG-IRON Alliance nullFarmer of Space Cows
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. And how does this impact new players more than older players? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:52:00 - [13] Originally by: Gannor Aton Well first off, make an honest living doing the Jita/Perimeter missions. Having a high rep with Caldari Navy will help out later in game and is definately an easy way as a beginner to get isk and rep. Just be honest about your gameplay. To beg = to dead. People will flame you to no end if you resort to primal means and in no way will you be found innocent. I truly have great respect for the founders (not just the dev's, the first year founders that found glitches, etc.). You will find if you make yourself an honest and hard living your character will be seen as an asset to possible corp's, which will then boost your notoriety, then when you start trading you will start making connections, money, badda-bing, badda-boom. Cheer up though m8, it's hard for the first 2-3 months, but follow what I say and you'll do just fine :) oh trust me im not begging, its just something ive noticed starting new in the game... i mean, im already in 0.0 doing lvl 3 missions, and it just seems incredibly slow, and it seems the income from missions is signifcantly lower than what prices have fallen too.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. And how does this impact new players more than older players? Older players have already accumulated billions of isk when it was easier? newer players struggle to get a fraction of that???
Gannor Aton InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:56:00 - [15] Ok, well you could be like some of the "true" newbs and buy their isk. That is why the market is high also on certain things, it's nothing for someone who has the cash in RL to pop out 50-100 bucks for the isk needed for the high-end things, thusly why you have the inflation on certain things. Take heed, these players that have been doing their livings (as posted above) know what they are talking about. i still consider myself a newb @ 6.5 mil sp, and I've learned more from INTG members, Reprissa, Madd Dok and Disiegor (to name a few) than i did when I first started. PvP based areas are dangerous for you if you aren't in a corp yet also. If you are a solo person great, but best to build ties like a said before and contribute to others. nullGannor Aton nullAgressor for INTG-IRON Alliance nullFarmer of Space Cows
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Esharan Older players have already accumulated billions of isk when it was easier? newer players struggle to get a fraction of that??? You're vastly overestimating the savings of older players...even if they have, over the course of their EVE careers, acquired billions of ISK, they've most likely spent the vast majority of it already. Also, I'm an "older player" and I have less than 20 million ISK in my wallet. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Gannor Aton Ok, well you could be like some of the "true" newbs and buy their isk. That is why the market is high also on certain things, it's nothing for someone who has the cash in RL to pop out 50-100 bucks for the isk needed for the high-end things, thusly why you have the inflation on certain things. Take heed, these players that have been doing their livings (as posted above) know what they are talking about. i still consider myself a newb @ 6.5 mil sp, and I've learned more from INTG members, Reprissa, Madd Dok and Disiegor (to name a few) than i did when I first started. PvP based areas are dangerous for you if you aren't in a corp yet also. If you are a solo person great, but best to build ties like a said before and contribute to others. I'd never buy isk obviously ~ and im not a new player... im just a new charector.. so i know how the game functions (i hope) im just saying FOR new charectors, its harder... its easy for older charectors to ignore it, and probally alot of new people cant even find thier way to the forums to talk about it, but im sure if u guys think back, or started a new charector with nothing today, you might be surpirsed at how much harder it is to get anywhere than it used to be, i mean i remember even back after beta it didnt take us long to start pumpin in isk... how could it? with 80 million isk mods dropping from missions left and right, who remembers mission running in Saila? the lvl 4 agents Guristas Extrav was a isk sink... you could make 300-500 million isk in a few hours imo. Now thats gone with right.... how do new players catch up to the billions we (older charectors) have already made or had the chance to make.. not flaming, i just feel bad for the little guy lately, especially after getting rid of my old charectors and starting new i realize its a whole new game, and alot harder for us (new charectors) than it was back in the day.. imo.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:03:00 - [18] I have been in EVE for 4+ years so trust me when I say earning money is far easier today than it ever has been. As someone mentioned above there was a time when getting into a battleship was the most uber thing you could do and it took literally weeks of work to afford one. Now I can earn enough on L4 missions alone in a good day of missioning to buy one. And while a wealthy player certainly has advantages by being in the game longer that is true of any game. You do not start any game the wealthiest or with the most leet gear but have to work up to it and all the people ahead of you can do that more easily. Besides, while someone may be wealthy that can go rather quickly. When you are flying ships worth billions (ship cost plus mods such as carriers and dreads) you do not have to lose too many before all the but the most wealthy of players would feel the pinch. In the meantime joining a player run corp is a good way to bootstrap new players into better stuff faster. Corps differ of course but for instance in my corp I will often split a mining Op 50/50 despite them being in an Osprey and me a Hulk. Add to that we sell ships/mods to members at cost (and in the case of frigs usually just give them away). Help them in missions and so on. Lots of ways to improve your efficiency when hooked-up with more senior players and most will help younger members in that.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Esharan Older players have already accumulated billions of isk when it was easier? newer players struggle to get a fraction of that??? You're vastly overestimating the savings of older players...even if they have, over the course of their EVE careers, acquired billions of ISK, they've most likely spent the vast majority of it already. Also, I'm an "older player" and I have less than 20 million ISK in my wallet. oh well no doubt theres a wide range of how much people have... but what assets do you have? a carrier? loads of HAC's/battleships, Command ships? all of which are signficantly harder to get too these days, i mean sure when they came out it was easy for me to buy them all too, and my "wallet" went down, but at least i had accumlated the money required to buy those ships... new guys today, no way they can get the money req'd to buy a carrier as fast as "many" of us did.. 3 years sure we had under our belts before they came out.. but did it really take u 3 years to make ur billions? doubt it.. im not flaming, im just saying it really seems as if a disparity between the upper and lower classes has formed... (not intended to be a political argument) but it does parralel the RW right? i mean give the new guys a chance to get to where we are... in economics its called the Catch Up effect... but theres no catch up effect in eve, and im thinking thier should be...
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:08:00 - [20] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 11/12/2007 20:10:17 It's hard to compare, but I'm just about certain it's easier for newer players running missions to make isk and buy decent stuff now than it was when I started about 2 years ago. Primary reasons being salvage profits; rigs, ship, and mission changes making them much easier; and invention drastically lowering the prices of most T2 modules and ships. The notable mission loot finds are a lot rarer and less lucrative, but I think mainly those were more exciting than actually impacting isk over time much. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. i beg to differ, i yoinked a harbinger armageddon and apocalypse off of some noob the otehr day when i asked him to trade em over so i could see his settups, one of the easyest 200 mill ive ever made --------------------------- Im in your systemz scanning your moonz
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:09:00 - [22] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I have been in EVE for 4+ years so trust me when I say earning money is far easier today than it ever has been. As someone mentioned above there was a time when getting into a battleship was the most uber thing you could do and it took literally weeks of work to afford one. Now I can earn enough on L4 missions alone in a good day of missioning to buy one. And while a wealthy player certainly has advantages by being in the game longer that is true of any game. You do not start any game the wealthiest or with the most leet gear but have to work up to it and all the people ahead of you can do that more easily. Besides, while someone may be wealthy that can go rather quickly. When you are flying ships worth billions (ship cost plus mods such as carriers and dreads) you do not have to lose too many before all the but the most wealthy of players would feel the pinch. In the meantime joining a player run corp is a good way to bootstrap new players into better stuff faster. Corps differ of course but for instance in my corp I will often split a mining Op 50/50 despite them being in an Osprey and me a Hulk. Add to that we sell ships/mods to members at cost (and in the case of frigs usually just give them away). Help them in missions and so on. Lots of ways to improve your efficiency when hooked-up with more senior players and most will help younger members in that. thats my point... of course you can make the money to buy a BS in quickly, your highly trained, already have the assets to do the missions solo ect. ect. what about a month old charector thats been spammin lvl 1's, 2's and 3's all of which now give significantly less reward... it takes double the time i'd say than it used to... and iplayed back when a BS was a godsend too.. but then it was more because we were all new, and it just took that time to train the skill... i remember pretty much as soon as i could fly a BS i could afford one... with my new char, with my exp. in making isk... i can fly a BS but am sitting as 32 million... ages away from being able to buy a raven because missions just dont yeild the same isk they used too.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:10:00 - [23] Originally by: Arvald Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. i beg to differ, i yoinked a harbinger armageddon and apocalypse off of some noob the otehr day when i asked him to trade em over so i could see his settups, one of the easyest 200 mill ive ever made this brings another point.. even scamming is signifcanly harder... i wont lie, back in the day i made a quick 900 mill of a scam... part of the game if u ask me, and now there are to man protections against it.
Maestro Ulv Edyta Enterprises Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:11:00 - [24] Isk is extremely easy to make these days, old or new has nothing to do with it bar the initial outlay you spend to make more money. Mission money making may have changed I don't know, as I no longer do them. You can however make plenty of money on the markets, far more than you could when I first started this game years ago. Invest some fo your mission money on the market and corner a section of it, its easy done, even in Jita. When that corner runs dry find another one, theres a lot of corners out in space!
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:11:00 - [25] Edited by: Arvald on 11/12/2007 20:11:46 Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Arvald Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Actually, ship prices have been falling for several months now...I don't recall ships being any cheaper. true but also significantly higher to get the isk... point remains if a raven was 120 mil a few months ago, and now goes for avg. what like 100mill? so tahts 20 mill less, but its way harder now to make 100 mill than it was months ago to make 120mill. imo. i beg to differ, i yoinked a harbinger armageddon and apocalypse off of some noob the otehr day when i asked him to trade em over so i could see his settups, one of the easyest 200 mill ive ever made this brings another point.. even scamming is signifcanly harder... i wont lie, back in the day i made a quick 900 mill of a scam... part of the game if u ask me, and now there are to man protections against it. no its not hard, several times ive made nearly a billion in collaterall with trying to get a bs bpo coughbpccough researched. your jstu not doing it right --------------------------- Im in your systemz scanning your moonz
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:11:00 - [26] Originally by: Esharan Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Esharan Older players have already accumulated billions of isk when it was easier? newer players struggle to get a fraction of that??? You're vastly overestimating the savings of older players...even if they have, over the course of their EVE careers, acquired billions of ISK, they've most likely spent the vast majority of it already. Also, I'm an "older player" and I have less than 20 million ISK in my wallet. oh well no doubt theres a wide range of how much people have... but what assets do you have? a carrier? loads of HAC's/battleships, Command ships? all of which are signficantly harder to get too these days, i mean sure when they came out it was easy for me to buy them all too, and my "wallet" went down, but at least i had accumlated the money required to buy those ships Currently, I own a Hulk and 3 Battleships, plus an assortment of smaller ships...my total wealth, estimating generously, about 300 million ISK. Also, T2 ships are much easier to purchase now due to invention, things like HACs and Command Ships cost half or less than their previous costs? So players who already owned those things were actually losing half of their initial investment due to deflation in the market. The same occurred with T2 modules. Older players with "billions" of ISK in assets lost about 70% of that considering the price of most T2 modules are 20% to 5% their pre-invention prices. Quote: in economics its called the Catch Up effect... but theres no catch up effect in eve, and im thinking thier should be... There absolutely is, actually, because ships are consumable products. Carriers die, equipment is lost, clones and implants have to be replaced. Even assuming the income of a 3 year old player is ten times that of a six month old player, they still have many additional expenses that keeps things in check. In addition, how does these players having all of this income affect you personally? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Esharan thats my point... of course you can make the money to buy a BS in quickly, your highly trained, already have the assets to do the missions solo ect. ect. what about a month old charector thats been spammin lvl 1's, 2's and 3's all of which now give significantly less reward... it takes double the time i'd say than it used to... and iplayed back when a BS was a godsend too.. but then it was more because we were all new, and it just took that time to train the skill... i remember pretty much as soon as i could fly a BS i could afford one... with my new char, with my exp. in making isk... i can fly a BS but am sitting as 32 million... ages away from being able to buy a raven because missions just dont yeild the same isk they used too. While a new character can technically "fly" a battleship in short order after starting I would say that by the time they are actually any good to fly a battleship they will have the money to afford one. I have seen all too often new players arrow into a battleship because they think it is the uber thing when in fact they suck at it because their fitting and gunnery skills and other support skills are terrible. Usually you are better using a frig for L1/L2 missions and a Cruiser/BC for L3 missions and a Battleship for L4s. By the time you have skills to fit a battleship decently and solo L4s chances are enough time as passed to afford one.
Esharan	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:14:00 - [28] I just feel like something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-up_effect should be in effect.. helping new players get to experiance the awesome stuff older players do more quickly no not in a few weeks or even months, but ya know what i mean?.. I know catch up effect is a economic theory, but it also applies to individuals, or at least could if you ask me. It makes sense too... thanks for your responses people, just wanted to give my opinion on what i noticed starting new... I challenge any long time player to start a new charector, recieve no help from alts or freinds, and see if its easier, or more difficult to make isk, and make it in the galaxy than it was several years ago. Let us know what your experiances are.
Anell Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:14:00 - [29] I don't think things are all that expensive really. Even a year after tech 2 came out those modules would be incredibly expensive. Now they are often the middle of the road in price as compared to other named modules and are easily affordable. A character less then a month old might have a tech 2 module or more. I also think that salvage has greatly increased the ability for players to earn wealth as compared to what players used to be able to earn. I agree that mission rewards have gone down but the prices you are talking about do not take into account salvage. The reward from even modest salvaging expeditions can be great. Especially to a new player starting off.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Esharan I challenge any long time player to start a new charector, recieve no help from alts or freinds, and see if its easier, or more difficult to make isk, and make it in the galaxy than it was several years ago. Let us know what your experiances are. I have done it. I came back to EVE after about a 1 year break about 1.5 years ago. At that time I started a new character and had at it. Was loads easier than when I did it the first time around. The only downside was I knew what having more skillpoints was like and it kinda stunk starting with a newbie character but making money was no problem at all.

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