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Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:12:00 - [1] Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 14/12/2007 06:14:37 It's been suggested and suggested. Please make it come true. Everyone says SB's are pre-nerfed. This is the fix. It's not like a manticore can solo. Recon ships actually can, and they get their covops cloaks. What gives. --
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:15:00 - [2] Because the people who suggest this never think it through.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:16:00 - [3] Originally by: twit brent Because the people who suggest this never think it through. Care to elaborate all wise one? --
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:19:00 - [4] ok to explain further. A ship with a covert ops cloak that has no targeting delay is very very powerfull. The #1 drawback of the covert ops cloak is the targeting delay. If it wasnt for this the cloak would be rediculously overpowered. So either the stealthbomber has a targeting dleay with a covert ops cloak with destroys its role as an alphastriker and ganker, or you give it delay and suddenly its just a very weak recon.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:22:00 - [5] Tbh, what the hell is the difference. If I am camping a gate/station/belt watever, and I have the Improved cloak fitted, there is no delay there. How does this all of a sudden become overpowered if I can warp cloaked. I think you are just trying to make up reasons now. Cmon. You serious? --
6Bagheera9 Slacker Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:25:00 - [6] I can see how a Covert Ops Cloak would be unbalancing, but i wish they would nix the scan resolution penalty from cloaks for bombers.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:26:00 - [7] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 I can see how a Covert Ops Cloak would be unbalancing, but i wish they would nix the scan resolution penalty from cloaks for bombers. Which only raises another point, it's not like SB's instalock. They have crap locking time. And when you say it would be unbalancing, in what way? What is SO gamebreaking about having SB's being able to actually use 'stealth' (it IS in their name). --
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:30:00 - [8] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Tbh, what the hell is the difference. If I am camping a gate/station/belt watever, and I have the Improved cloak fitted, there is no delay there. How does this all of a sudden become overpowered if I can warp cloaked. I think you are just trying to make up reasons now. Cmon. You serious? Because warping cloaked allows you to go and actively hunt things anywhere in system. There is no way you can escape from a cloaking ship that has insta lock. bombers would make rediculously good tacklers because they can go anywhere in system sneak up on enemies then instalock and tackle with no delay. This throws out the balance of covert ops cloaks completely and is the reason they use improved claok II's. That is why recons have targeting delay.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:34:00 - [9] Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 14/12/2007 06:35:15 Originally by: twit brent Originally by: Marcus Druallis Tbh, what the hell is the difference. If I am camping a gate/station/belt watever, and I have the Improved cloak fitted, there is no delay there. How does this all of a sudden become overpowered if I can warp cloaked. I think you are just trying to make up reasons now. Cmon. You serious? Because warping cloaked allows you to go and actively hunt things anywhere in system. There is no way you can escape from a cloaking ship that has insta lock. bombers would make rediculously good tacklers because they can go anywhere in system sneak up on enemies then instalock and tackle with no delay. This throws out the balance of covert ops cloaks completely and is the reason they use improved claok II's. That is why recons have targeting delay. Yes, I SUPPOSE they could tackle. BUT, they are slow as all hell, and are made of wet toilet paper. These are popped like pods bud. Recon's can actually tank, whereas the Stealth Bomber cannot. It's slow, fat, and weak. It's not much of a tackler. Trust me. EDIT: Also, as stated before. Their locking time is bad. They aren't instalocking. --
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: 6Bagheera9 I can see how a Covert Ops Cloak would be unbalancing, but i wish they would nix the scan resolution penalty from cloaks for bombers. Which only raises another point, it's not like SB's instalock. They have crap locking time. And when you say it would be unbalancing, in what way? What is SO gamebreaking about having SB's being able to actually use 'stealth' (it IS in their name). It might aswell be, When counting in delay a stealthbomber with a sensor booster or 2 can lock a decent sized ship before that ships knows whats happening. Anyway off that topic. Stealthbombers are not realy underbalanced. I know people whose stealthbombers put out 300+ dps at over 200km. That is way more than any other frigate can and from way outside alot of ships effective range. So a couple of cloaked stealthbombers and a bait ship can be very effective at ganking unwary targets. My taranis paired up with a stealthbomber has been very effective at taking down sabres and other similar ships.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:41:00 - [11] Originally by: twit brent Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: 6Bagheera9 I can see how a Covert Ops Cloak would be unbalancing, but i wish they would nix the scan resolution penalty from cloaks for bombers. Which only raises another point, it's not like SB's instalock. They have crap locking time. And when you say it would be unbalancing, in what way? What is SO gamebreaking about having SB's being able to actually use 'stealth' (it IS in their name). It might aswell be, When counting in delay a stealthbomber with a sensor booster or 2 can lock a decent sized ship before that ships knows whats happening. Anyway off that topic. Stealthbombers are not realy underbalanced. I know people whose stealthbombers put out 300+ dps at over 200km. That is way more than any other frigate can and from way outside alot of ships effective range. So a couple of cloaked stealthbombers and a bait ship can be very effective at ganking unwary targets. My taranis paired up with a stealthbomber has been very effective at taking down sabres and other similar ships. Yes, but he probably had to wait about 30-40 seconds for the missiles to get there lol --
Kaiji Vincente	Posted - 2007.12.14 06:42:00 - [12] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 I can see how a Covert Ops Cloak would be unbalancing, but i wish they would nix the scan resolution penalty from cloaks for bombers. At the very least reduce it. The ship bonuses already scream for an Improved Cloak II on all but the most unorthodox configuration. Lock speed might not matter for bombs, but those are effectively 0.0 only weapons. Use one of these in empire, all the sudden lock time starts to matter in getting off that first salvo of cruise missiles.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 07:44:00 - [13] Even if they need to make a third t2 cloak with specialized attributes only usable on the SB.. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:51:00 - [14] thoughts? --
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:00:00 - [15] Warp while cloaked? Absolutely not. Why would anyone fly a cov ops anymore? I know I would pick the cov ops that could fit 3 cruise on it. If you review my posts from your previous thread, you will realize what your SB is good for. hiccup
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:03:00 - [16] Originally by: OOOSOOO Warp while cloaked? Absolutely not. Why would anyone fly a cov ops anymore? I know I would pick the cov ops that could fit 3 cruise on it. If you review my posts from your previous thread, you will realize what your SB is good for. The covops warps much faster, has a much higher agility (bubble escaping), scans much better. Next. --
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:08:00 - [17] Edited by: OOOSOOO on 14/12/2007 18:13:54 K, well cov ops cloak on SB is just *******. Can you give a good reason why it should be able to fit one? This game too hard for you or what? Edit: Try going to a busy system with a buddy in a fast inty and see what you can kill. hiccup*
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:25:00 - [18] SBs with CML are fine IMHO, just ppl are "bored" to co-operate efficiently enough to use them, as opportunity targets are rare unless you get more than a handful of them and combine them with dedicated tacklers. twit brent says it all... Cov-ops = Cov-ops. Covert. Un-seen. Unnoticed. aka "Spies" of some kind. Stealth forces do more brute ops, yet as soon as they expose themselves, their position is compromised and their defense weak. aka. "Snipers" or "Stealth Bombers" - airplane bombers, or EVE SBs in our case You wonna something like a "007" super killer-spy... An I-win Pilgrim of some kind, with tank, Cov-Ops cloak, insta-lock and uber-alphas We all do...we all...it's just that these cruel devs are afraid of the wtfpwnffs fair whining they will receive, and choose to displease the few
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:43:00 - [19] Originally by: OOOSOOO Edited by: OOOSOOO on 14/12/2007 18:13:54 K, well cov ops cloak on SB is just ******. Can you give a good reason why it should be able to fit one? This game too hard for you or what? Edit: Try going to a busy system with a buddy in a fast inty and see what you can kill. As for the "going to a busy system with a buddy in a fast inty", that applies to all ships. That can apply to carriers... Also, the reason is, the SB should be able to move covertly. It is paper **in thin. It does not instapop anything but a goddamn frigate. What more do you want. It takes SEVERAL salvos to pop cruisers. It cannot tackle alone. And if it is locked, it is for the most part doomed. You provide reasons why it should not get covops or something similiar. --
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:53:00 - [20] Originally by: Marcus Druallis You provide reasons why it should not get covops or something similiar. 1. It can instapop frigates. 2. It can pop cruisers in SEVERAL volleys. Flying Stealth Bombers effectively requires patience. hiccup
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:08:00 - [21] Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 14/12/2007 19:09:19 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Also, the reason is, the SB should be able to move covertly. It is paper **in thin. It does not instapop anything but a goddamn frigate. What more do you want. It takes SEVERAL salvos to pop cruisers. It cannot tackle alone. And if it is locked, it is for the most part doomed. You provide reasons why it should not get covops or something similiar. Can you please connect my post to your post? I'll help you: Originally by:** Bruce Deorum SBs with CML are fine IMHO, just ppl are "bored" to co-operate efficiently enough to use them, as opportunity targets are rare unless you get more than a handful of them and combine them with dedicated tacklers. So, according to your own sayings: #1) one volley can instapop a frig #2) several volleys can pop a cruiser To mine: #3) ppl are bored to co-operate efficiently enough to use them, cause you need more than a handful (read several) combined to get more opportunity targets. Extra thoughts #4) Cruisers are slower to align and generaly cannot accelerate fast enough to speed tank a SB. Take #1-#2-#3-#4 and combine them: * Alone you can instapop a frigate! * More SBs can deal with a cruiser or an indy much faster, or with more than one frigates! * Several can instapop a cruiser or an indy! - NO TACKLERS NEEDED! * Many can make short work out of MANY-MANY things, helped by tacklers at least! But as I said already, don't try to make a solo wtfpwn mobile out of a SB. Sleep on the thought that there is the slightest possibility to insta-pop a pimped (rigged) Ceptor or EAS in it (see, more expensive targets introdused for you!), and be happy with it!
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:13:00 - [22] Originally by: Bruce Deorum Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 14/12/2007 19:09:19 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Also, the reason is, the SB should be able to move covertly. It is paper **in thin. It does not instapop anything but a goddamn frigate. What more do you want. It takes SEVERAL salvos to pop cruisers. It cannot tackle alone. And if it is locked, it is for the most part doomed. You provide reasons why it should not get covops or something similiar. Can you please connect my post to your post? I'll help you: Originally by:** Bruce Deorum SBs with CML are fine IMHO, just ppl are "bored" to co-operate efficiently enough to use them, as opportunity targets are rare unless you get more than a handful of them and combine them with dedicated tacklers. So, according to your own sayings: #1) one volley can instapop a frig #2) several volleys can pop a cruiser To mine: #3) ppl are bored to co-operate efficiently enough to use them, cause you need more than a handful (read several) combined to get more opportunity targets. Extra thoughts #4) Cruisers are slower to align and generaly cannot accelerate fast enough to speed tank a SB. Take #1-#2-#3-#4 and combine them: * Alone you can instapop a frigate! * More SBs can deal with a cruiser or an indy much faster, or with more than one frigates! * Several can instapop a cruiser or an indy! - NO TACKLERS NEEDED! * Many can make short work out of MANY-MANY things, helped by tacklers at least! But as I said already, don't try to make a solo wtfpwn mobile out of a SB. Sleep on the thought that there is the slightest possibility to insta-pop a pimped (rigged) Ceptor or EAS in it (see, more expensive targets introdused for you!), and be happy with it! Well said. I think the OP just wants SBs to be true solo ships. Which they are not. hiccup
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:46:00 - [23] No, the arguments that you are posing are just stating that the SB can pop ships too quickly. That has nothing to do with the ability to warp cloaked. Your arguments do not touch upon that at all. Also, you say that I want this ship to be a solopwn ship. How the **** do you gather this argument. Am I asking for a boost in damage? The ability to tackle while I shoot missiles? A boost to its hp? An ability to tank? Nah. Nope. Not one of those. Just the ability to move cloaked. So not everyone and their mom knows where the hell I am, so that MAYBE targets of opportunity will present themselves. I don't cry myself to sleep when im in a nano ship and bam a rapier uncloaks and wtfpwns me. Why are you crying when I cannot even suprise you unless you stumble upon me. Fun. --
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:03:00 - [24] The Stealth Bomber is a more powerful ship than any other in its size and price class in Eve. It doesn't need a boost.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Hannobaal The Stealth Bomber is a more powerful ship than any other in its size and price class in Eve. It doesn't need a boost. Well that depends entirely on how you define "powerful". A well piloted inty will destroy a SB. A well piloted inty will most likely pop anything an SB can pop, and can also tackle and has much higher survivability. So, your logic is kinda faulty. --
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Marcus Druallis No, the arguments that you are posing are just stating that the SB can pop ships too quickly. That has nothing to do with the ability to warp cloaked. Your arguments do not touch upon that at all. Also, you say that I want this ship to be a solopwn ship. How the **** do you gather this argument. Am I asking for a boost in damage? The ability to tackle while I shoot missiles? A boost to its hp? An ability to tank? Nah. Nope. Not one of those. Just the ability to move cloaked. So not everyone and their mom knows where the hell I am, so that MAYBE targets of opportunity will present themselves. I don't cry myself to sleep when im in a nano ship and bam a rapier uncloaks and wtfpwns me. Why are you crying when I cannot even suprise you unless you stumble upon me. Fun. Fair - still the SB is pretty capable of camping a gate, a belt or a station (outpost) just as it is. Having no target delay after decloaking is a far better tactical advantage for a stealthed camper, and any recon pilot complaining about the delay in acquiring a target after de-cloaking close to it, knows that. The SBs get 2x bonuses in cloaking modules - traveling speed and no targeting delay. Having a 3rd to be able to warp while cloaked would be too much, don't you think? Unless you are willing to sacrifice one role bonus or switch another lvl dependant bonus for it. Should you lose the sig-radius bonus, you'd start to complain that suddenly you cannot insta-pop even the un-tanked frigs you could! Should you lose your dmg bonus, you'd find out that SBs are all about Alpha strikes and useless without it cause effective HPs can't "hold" for more than 1-2 volleys Should you lose the no-delay to lock feature, you'd start to complain about all the frigs warping out before you could possibly lock em, even with sensor boosters... Should you lose the speed-when-cloaked bonus, you'd start to complain that it's impossible to remain on a gate after compromising you position, as you are slower than a freighter and your only practical mean of relocation around a given gate or station while cloaked would be having multiple SS around it, warping out to a celestial and warping back. So practically you are asking for a fourth role bonus on a darn under-utilized ship with well-thought mechanics to back it up, already boosting more role bonuses than any other specialized ship... And suppose you get it...should be a fifth skill-Dependant bonus for the cov-ops cloak, but a bonus similar to the one the cov-ops frigs get according it's CPU req. reduction would be too much...I mean, these get the 98-100% CPU req reduction cause they also fit recon probe launchers, their "role" module...and these "cost alone" more than effectively 4 Cruise launchers in a SB...after the darn role bonus...its a bit too much to ask for a similar bonus, don't you think? I mean, the Cov-ops gets something like 40-50CPU more than a SB, and still that makes for a tight fit with the Recon Probe launcher. Would you fly a SB with just 1 cruise launcher and the current bonuses as an exchange for a cov ops cloaking? cause realistically that could make up for it...I mean, you cannot push EVERYTHING in that lil ship... That would take 3 Cov-Op Bombers to pop a single frig... Take 3 "simple" Stealth Bombers and pop cruisers instead
Multras Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.14 21:33:00 - [27] Edited by: Multras on 14/12/2007 21:34:01 NO, how many times are these threads going to pop up? Grow some skill noobs, the ship is fine. And I would really love to see an inty pop my manticore, it wont happen. Thanks to EVE Art Store for the sig.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Multras Edited by: Multras on 14/12/2007 21:34:01 NO, how many times are these threads going to pop up? Grow some skill noobs, the ship is fine. And I would really love to see an inty pop my manticore, it wont happen. Fine, it won't. You'll just stay cloaked mr. elite. --
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:42:00 - [29] They already get bonuses to bring the impcloak nearer to the covops - the only thing they would gain is a few seconds locktime and the ability to warp cloaked - which really doesnt sound too bad considering they suffered greatly from the damp nerf. Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.14 23:02:00 - [30] Why not doubling the SB speed bonus while cloaked? Just a thought... or not _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 23:40:00 - [31] Speed while cloaked is fine, ability to move through system is not. --
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.12.14 23:48:00 - [32] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 14/12/2007 06:14:37 It's been suggested and suggested. Please make it come true. Everyone says SB's are pre-nerfed. This is the fix. It's not like a manticore can solo. Recon ships actually can, and they get their covops cloaks. What gives. I missed the real content of this thread, BUT why can't a Manticore solo? You might not take out all ships but it is still only a very powerfull frigate... It can solo very well. If this is about fitting the cov ops cloak you should play more and write less... - I'm a nice guy!! But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored...
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 23:50:00 - [33] Originally by: Pinky Denmark Originally by: Marcus Druallis Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 14/12/2007 06:14:37 It's been suggested and suggested. Please make it come true. Everyone says SB's are pre-nerfed. This is the fix. It's not like a manticore can solo. Recon ships actually can, and they get their covops cloaks. What gives. I missed the real content of this thread, BUT why can't a Manticore solo? You might not take out all ships but it is still only a very powerfull frigate... It can solo very well. If this is about fitting the cov ops cloak you should play more and write less... If you don't bother to read content don't bother to post. --
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:02:00 - [34] It all boils down to Is it overpowered if the stealth bomber can arrive unseen. Currently whenever the bomber travels.. it announces its arrival by showing up on scan and overview before it cloaks. Meaning if we actually want surprise.. we need to be in position before the "target of oppertunity" arrives, otherwise they know we are there and maybe even know where we warped in to allowing intys to race to that spot and try to decloak in the 2km radius. If we get covops cloaks which i do support. then the bomber can actually arrive and leave claoked and ya know.. stealthy. Ppl are complaing that it would be overpowered when it wouldn't be too much. The same tactics to kill bombers still apply. When we shoot we have to remain on grid and visible for the impacts to do damage. The only difference is the fraction of a second that the bomber is visible when warping in or out. How many ppl are quick enough to get a bomber locked and popped in the time it takes to de-warp and cloak considering range and lock time.. not many if the bomber pilot has even a little bit of skill. Hence the best and still easily possible time to kill the bomber is when its shooting. Giving bombers the ability to warp cloaked wont deny this prime kill window. Bombers are ambush ships that can at most ambush 1 or 2 ships at a time if they are lucky.. any more in the area and the bomber is dead. We simply want the ability to perform our role w/o announcing our arrival to everyone on grid, or being regulated to camping a single location waiting for someone to come by and sit still long enough for us to get in range and fire. Can we instapop frigs.. yes. Can everyone else instapop us.. yes A bomber is most vulnerable when its shooting.. When its warping in or out.. the ambush is sprung and everyone knows its there and waiting for it making it a rather crappy ambush ship.. unless its already been sitting at that location... bored outta their minds waiting for a ship that it can kill before it warps off or kills the bomber (while it waits for its missiles to impact) ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master Which is worse.. the Carebear or the pirate that whines about them?
Mudkest Ekliptika Engineers Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:08:00 - [35] Edited by: Mudkest on 15/12/2007 00:11:20 Originally by: twit brent bombers would make rediculously good tacklers because they can go anywhere in system sneak up on enemies then instalock and tackle with no delay. This throws out the balance of covert ops cloaks completely and is the reason they use improved claok II's. That is why recons have targeting delay. so if their scan resolution is nerfed by 50%(same as t1 cloak), can theye get a cov ops cloak then? ----- GIEV custom ship paint jobs! I want my hello-kitty-kessie! For your safety do not destroy vital testing apparatus
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:10:00 - [36] Originally by: Illyria Ambri It all boils down to Is it overpowered if the stealth bomber can arrive unseen. Currently whenever the bomber travels.. it announces its arrival by showing up on scan and overview before it cloaks. Meaning if we actually want surprise.. we need to be in position before the "target of oppertunity" arrives, otherwise they know we are there and maybe even know where we warped in to allowing intys to race to that spot and try to decloak in the 2km radius. If we get covops cloaks which i do support. then the bomber can actually arrive and leave claoked and ya know.. stealthy. Ppl are complaing that it would be overpowered when it wouldn't be too much. The same tactics to kill bombers still apply. When we shoot we have to remain on grid and visible for the impacts to do damage. The only difference is the fraction of a second that the bomber is visible when warping in or out. How many ppl are quick enough to get a bomber locked and popped in the time it takes to de-warp and cloak considering range and lock time.. not many if the bomber pilot has even a little bit of skill. Hence the best and still easily possible time to kill the bomber is when its shooting. Giving bombers the ability to warp cloaked wont deny this prime kill window. Bombers are ambush ships that can at most ambush 1 or 2 ships at a time if they are lucky.. any more in the area and the bomber is dead. We simply want the ability to perform our role w/o announcing our arrival to everyone on grid, or being regulated to camping a single location waiting for someone to come by and sit still long enough for us to get in range and fire. Can we instapop frigs.. yes. Can everyone else instapop us.. yes A bomber is most vulnerable when its shooting.. When its warping in or out.. the ambush is sprung and everyone knows its there and waiting for it making it a rather crappy ambush ship.. unless its already been sitting at that location... bored outta their minds waiting for a ship that it can kill before it warps off or kills the bomber (while it waits for its missiles to impact) Amen. Now, with all he has said, I know some of you are still gonna come rushing in here spouting off things about the covops cloak's attributes that will unbalance. If that is the case, make a new cloak strictly meant for the stealth bomber. I just want the ability to move around the system in cloak, as there is no other way to ambush (other than to sit the bored to HELL). Make a prereq cloaking 5, I don't care. --
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:27:00 - [37] Actually, you can come onto the scene unnoticed, if you prepare ahead of time. Which is why I suggested boosting the SB cloak speed bonus, allowing to to achieve this ability more effectively. _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:29:00 - [38] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Actually, you can come onto the scene unnoticed, if you prepare ahead of time. Which is why I suggested boosting the SB cloak speed bonus, allowing to to achieve this ability more effectively. Prepare ahead of time huh. You follow every target you've got with a scout? Yeah, probably. --
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:31:00 - [39] Edited by: Selene Le''Cotiere on 15/12/2007 00:31:43 No scout need really, if it's a regular hunting territory. Or if you are engaging known camps. _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:32:00 - [40] I'm one of those believing a cov ops cloak n a bomber will ruin balance... Though Im definately into a solution for letting bombers get on target with less risc Have you considered some module or feature around bomb release - stuff like temporarily letting all targets lose lock on it, getting a very small signature and/or giving the bomber a seriously strong resist for 15-30 secs (a bit time to aproach and drop bomb) - I'm a nice guy!! But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored...
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:13:00 - [41] Originally by: Pinky Denmark I'm one of those believing a cov ops cloak n a bomber will ruin balance... Though Im definately into a solution for letting bombers get on target with less risc Have you considered some module or feature around bomb release - stuff like temporarily letting all targets lose lock on it, getting a very small signature and/or giving the bomber a seriously strong resist for 15-30 secs (a bit time to aproach and drop bomb) While your arguments may have merit, I wasn't really bothering with bombs in this thread. More of a fleet tool to me tbh. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:14:00 - [42] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Edited by: Selene Le''Cotiere on 15/12/2007 00:31:43 No scout need really, if it's a regular hunting territory. Or if you are engaging known camps. Engaging known camps? You mean trying to run a camp through a gate, and you expect bombers to uncloak to fire at a running camp? You ****tin' me? You ever flown a bomber? Jw. --
Prometheus Exenthal Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:15:00 - [43] Originally by: Illyria Ambri When we shoot we have to remain on grid and visible for the impacts to do damage. If you can shoot, cloak, then decloak and relock before the missiles reach they're target, the missiles still do damage. Same thing goes for warping. *lock, align, fire, warp, lock, align, fire, warp* So start making points around gates However, I do agree that they should be able to enter a system unnoticed (w/out black ops). Perhaps SB's should be able to maintain their cloak upon entering a system. They would still have to decloak to warp, but they would be a lot less vulnerable and a bit more useful when it comes to offensive warfare. -
corroded	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:39:00 - [44] Edited by: corroded on 15/12/2007 01:41:44 as previous poster implied. at least give sb's the ability to cloak in mid-warp , so it can arrive cloaked, but still has to decloak to enter warp. (would apply only to sb's not the cloak mod itself) would make more sense, would boost sb's to the point of it actually being able to do what its supposed to. it wouldnt detract much from using cov-ops for scouting either since the inability of the bomber to get away unseen would still be there.
Prometheus Exenthal Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:55:00 - [45] No need to have to warp in cloaked. Unless you are warping to a gate to leave, you shouldn't be warping in at 0. -
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.12.15 02:09:00 - [46] Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal No need to have to warp in cloaked. Unless you are warping to a gate to leave, you shouldn't be warping in at 0. Warp in and everyone on the grid sees you arrive... boom.. ambush chances over ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master Which is worse.. the Carebear or the pirate that whines about them?
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.15 02:42:00 - [47] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Engaging known camps? You mean trying to run a camp through a gate, and you expect bombers to uncloak to fire at a running camp? You ****tin' me? You ever flown a bomber? Jw. I'm not sure we talking about the same thing here... I'm talking about engaging/harassing gate camps with out them seeing you come in. Have I gotten through gate camps, both ways without them seeing me go though except to activate the gate? Yes. Have I flown a Bomber? Yes, in fact I'm rather fond of my Manti the way it is now. Personally a speed bonus increase while cloaked would be more appropriate than the ability to warp while cloaked. Build upon its ability to stalk its prey, not give it something that other stealth ships can do. _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
corroded	Posted - 2007.12.15 02:58:00 - [48] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Warp in and everyone on the grid sees you arrive... boom.. ambush chances over exactly. Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal No need to have to warp in cloaked. Unless you are warping to a gate to leave, you shouldn't be warping in at 0. what are you on about? .. simply stated, as it is now the bombers cant do their jobs without sitting.. then waiting.. for something that is either a noobship or a nontanked frig , which doesnt have a clue what to do when ppl toss missiles at them, and somehow forget how to warp in the 10+ seconds it takes for the volley to hit. /rant solution: Let bombers arrive to the victim stealthed, do their business and warp off decloaked. If the attack fails, he cant run cloaked. If the bomber succeeds he has still lost the element of surprise, but has actively hunted and actually managed to perform its role of being a sneaky, potentially lethal b*stard, instead of something that falls asleep at a roid belt somewhere, waiting for an afk hauler. so, no need for a cov-ops cloak, just add a little role-blurb to sb's using imp.cloak 2's
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.15 03:25:00 - [49] Originally by: corroded clip Stealthbomber: ambusher/surpriseattacker, must be able to remain unseen until the moment of attack. Lock while cloaked (with extended lock time), cloak drops when missiles fired? That could be pretty sweet, though probably pushing being a bit overboard. _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
NCP S2	Posted - 2007.12.15 04:19:00 - [50] I agree on both sides of the arguement. I would love to be able to warp while cloaked, or arrive while cloaked in my Manticore. This way I'd be a lot more dangerous, and a Stealth Bomber would cause a lot more unrest if noticed in a system. It would make it a VERY powerful ship, most likely a bit too powerful. The only balance it would see would be the fact that anything that gets a target on it can take it out with a sneeze. BUT... Like I just said, it would be a bit too powerful. It would make it a solo ship, and there are many situations in which it would be ultra imbalanced. Situation: Arrive in system and warp to a gate while cloaked. Your targets use this as a shipping lane and you know it. Now they know you are in system due to local, but don't know where you are at, or what ship you are in. You are then able to open up on a hauler that comes through and quickly scoop the loot before warping off while cloaked as reinforcements arrive. OR: You warp in on someone in a belt, a nice noob frigate out ratting in low sec. But you arrived cloaked so he doesn't even have a clue about his pending doom! You uncloak, fire, pop! walk away with the victory! BOTH of these situations can easily come about with some thought and planning. Warp into the first system and get into position and then cloak. As long as they don't have someone sitting on that gate, you're still safe. They might know you are in system in a SB, but they don't know where you are at. You have about the same chance of getting a lone hauler without a scout, or with a scout that keeps a system ahead, as with a hauler coming through with an armed escort. The second one, just position yourself at a gate ahead of the ratter, get cloaked, and wait for them to arrive. How would it be imbalanced? Well you couldn't ever be detected prior to engagement, and you'd still be able to engage. Right now, all ships that can't be detected prior to engagement, can't really engage. THAT's where the imbalance is. To the arguement that recons can solo... well, compare the skill difference between the Recon ship and the Stealth Bomber... if you still have trouble seeing how they aren't even, well, I'm not really scared of Recons when I'm flying anything except a T1 Frig, in which case, I'm not fretting a loss there either. If you don't think SB's can instalock... have you ever flown one? Even with the damp change, it's still a powerful tool. Would I enjoy flying a Manticore more if I could warp while cloaked? Yes. Would I think that the Stealth Bomber is now a bit too powerful? Yes. Is the Stealth Bomber currently a very powerful tool and very dangerous, yet often overlooked? Yes. Are there several ships that are overlooked due to their niche role not being needed in every situation? Yes. Do more people need to look past their biased opinions and take in account broader aspects of game play? Yes. Are two lines of my question and yes's test the same length? Yes. Without spelling out every situation that a stealth bomber is good for, I doubt the majority of people crying for this change would understand what the stealth bomber is good for. The biggest peeve I have is that when I first played, the Manticore could field 3 cruise missile launchers while the rest could only field 2. Then I come back after a bit of a break, and they can all field 3, and the Manticore goes from the king to significantly lower on the Stealth Bomber totem pole. The Missile Race lost their missile advantage, because non missile races needed thier stealth bomber to be even... personal gripe, and I know many disagree with me on this, but meh. Not part of this topic, but still. All in all, SB's are very powerful and don't need any changes. Would it break the game and cause everyone to be flying a Stealth Bomber? Would there be significantly more SB pilots than there are now? Probabally not. Would the forums be flooded with cry's about the change? Yes.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.15 06:13:00 - [51] Edited by: Hannobaal on 15/12/2007 06:12:56 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Hannobaal The Stealth Bomber is a more powerful ship than any other in its size and price class in Eve. It doesn't need a boost. Well that depends entirely on how you define "powerful". A well piloted inty will destroy a SB. A well piloted inty will most likely pop anything an SB can pop, and can also tackle and has much higher survivability. So, your logic is kinda faulty. Can two interceptors together put out more DPS than a Cruise fitted Raven?
Shippon Shima	Posted - 2007.12.15 07:16:00 - [52] The issues with bombers: Unable to warp cloaked - Completely removes the bomber as an offensive weapon. You cannot 'get the jump' on someone if you warp to him so he can see you in scanners. At best the 'bomber' is nothing more than an ambush craft..and a mediocre one at that (in terms of stealth). Inability to re-cloak if BEING targetted: Okay.. not being able to cloak if LOCKED ..fine. But if you're being TARGETTED .. what the F? The instant you pop into the overview you get denied the chance to re-cloak. Likewise, the instant you warp in uncloaked you start to get targeted. Low damage output - yes you heard it. A 'bomber' is supposed to take out BIG targets. Insta- popping frigs is ********.. thats the role of DESTROYERS. 2km range 'unstealth' bubble - you cannot fly with other bombers in any sort of formation as lag or other uncontrollable factor gets you in range of your friend bomber and voila! you're fekd. Caldari bomber racial advantage removed- stupidest decision by CCP...ever. Solutions: - To warp cloaked: Allow stealth bomber to use the covops cloak BUT.. add the following rule (applies to both bomber and recon): Cannot warp cloaked if weapon bays are loaded. This makes the covops cloak users have to arm its weapons after they jump in or before they jump out cloaked. This delay balances out the alpha strike of the bomber in both offensive and getaway options (since you cannot cloak while warping). -Cloaking & being targeted: Only refuse bomber to cloak itself if it is LOCKED. being targeted should not be a reason to deny the bomber to cloak. If you think about it, the sensors DETECTED you but have not yet triangulated your exact position. - Damage output: A bomber is supposed to strike heavy targets with enough damage to make an impact. No, it should not insta-pop cruisers but it should be able to do severe damage to it in one volley. This can be achieved in different ways depending on race: Caldari: Manticore is allowed to load TORPEDOES and receives torpedo damage bonus (+200%), a massive refire delay (+200% refire delay) and a big penalty to torpedo explosion stats (so that fast flying targets receive little damage but static or slow ones (aka 150ms or less) get full damage). This makes the Caldari bomber a very effective short range sledgehammer that has to pick targets carefully. Gallente bombers: Gallente bombers should be allowed to load ONE large railgun and have 'suicide' drones that do comparable damage to the current 3-cruise missile setup. Their 'special' bonus is that their drones do not suffer from any factors that reduce damage (tracking,speed, etc). Minmatar bomber: Minmatar should be allowed 3 large guns OR a mix of cruise missiles and guns. Their 'special' race bonus is that with 3 large projectiles is they can get the wrecking damage insanity and of course, they can change damage types easily. Drawback: low ammo load in cargo space for large gun ammo. Amarr Bomber: Amarr would be allowed to load 3 BOMB launchers whereas other races are limited to 1 per ship. This alone makes it a fearsome attacker. 2km range stealth bubble- if ship is in fleet, it should not decloak him. easy.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.15 07:25:00 - [53] Originally by: Shippon Shima Inability to re-cloak if BEING targetted: Okay.. not being able to cloak if LOCKED ..fine. But if you're being TARGETTED .. what the F? The instant you pop into the overview you get denied the chance to re-cloak. Likewise, the instant you warp in uncloaked you start to get targeted. That's not true. Only being locked keeps you from cloaking. However, when you see someone's icon lighting up witha yellow square in the overview that's them having locked you, not them being in the process of targeting you. In Eve you never know when someone is targeting you, only when they already have you locked.
Multras Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.15 07:56:00 - [54] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Edited by: Multras on 14/12/2007 21:34:01 NO, how many times are these threads going to pop up? Grow some skill noobs, the ship is fine. And I would really love to see an inty pop my manticore, it wont happen. Fine, it won't. You'll just stay cloaked mr. elite. Or ill insta pop his ass. Thanks to EVE Art Store for the sig.
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.15 09:39:00 - [55] Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 15/12/2007 09:41:00 PPL are bored or cannot find friends that respect the SB concept enough to make proper ambushes. Cov-Ops cloaks WON'T change that. Some of the "balances" of insta-decloak while being able to lock targets mpla-mpla totally miss the whole balance issue: SBs are CHEAP (relatively) T2 ships with HUGE dmg potential. They can ambush pretty well, you just cannot enter a system through an enemy camped gate and safely go around un-noticed. You can pretty well and pretty safely navigate cloaked within an enemy bubble tho, even USE it for tackling! - NOTHING will the offensive capabilities of a SB can... - EVEN the Cov-ops frigs actually appear on scanner or overview for a sec or so...maybe you cannot possibly lock em fast enough, but SURELY someone can see them...not by accident... - Wanting an un-catchable frig class that can swarm through enemy territory being able to ultra-fast-lock n fire 1/2 of the Alphas a Raven gets to harass the enemy is overpowered. Cause what you describe is definitely un-cachable, as anything that can lock you in time is insta-poped and everything else cannot lock you fast enough. SBs are ultra effective as they are. You wan't faster hits after firing? Take your risks and move close buddy. Or get a tackler to do the dirty job and keep your safe distances. Should they wanted insta-dmg dealers, SBs would be speced for Arties or Tachyons (lol)! I've camped with a buddy in a SB. In enemy territory, and yes, with patience you can brake through bubbled camps and such almost as consistently and effectively as every other cov op. Patience is what most complainers want, not cov-ops. And why should they fly SBs then? why not ceptors that cannot insta pop sth, or "original" cov-ops?
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 18:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Multras Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Edited by: Multras on 14/12/2007 21:34:01 NO, how many times are these threads going to pop up? Grow some skill noobs, the ship is fine. And I would really love to see an inty pop my manticore, it wont happen. Fine, it won't. You'll just stay cloaked mr. elite. Or ill insta pop his ass. LOL! Oh jesus, you're exactly why I log on. Oh god, that was good. Wooo. Ok, I've got a grip on myself. Now: You are going to instapop a interceptor? CMON! Did you go on EFT again? Play the game dude, a ceptor going 6km/s is not going to be touched by your damn missiles buddy. Seriously, stop letting people download EFT. Remove it. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 18:20:00 - [57] Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 15/12/2007 18:20:17 Double Post. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 18:21:00 - [58] Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 15/12/2007 18:24:16 Originally by: Bruce Deorum Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 15/12/2007 09:41:00 PPL are bored or cannot find friends that respect the SB concept enough to make proper ambushes. Cov-Ops cloaks WON'T change that. Some of the "balances" of insta-decloak while being able to lock targets mpla-mpla totally miss the whole balance issue: SBs are CHEAP (relatively) T2 ships with HUGE dmg potential. They can ambush pretty well, you just cannot enter a system through an enemy camped gate and safely go around un-noticed. You can pretty well and pretty safely navigate cloaked within an enemy bubble tho, even USE it for tackling! - NOTHING will the offensive capabilities of a SB can... - EVEN the Cov-ops frigs actually appear on scanner or overview for a sec or so...maybe you cannot possibly lock em fast enough, but SURELY someone can see them...not by accident... - Wanting an un-catchable frig class that can swarm through enemy territory being able to ultra-fast-lock n fire 1/2 of the Alphas a Raven gets to harass the enemy is overpowered. Cause what you describe is definitely un-cachable, as anything that can lock you in time is insta-poped and everything else cannot lock you fast enough. SBs are ultra effective as they are. You wan't faster hits after firing? Take your risks and move close buddy. Or get a tackler to do the dirty job and keep your safe distances. Should they wanted insta-dmg dealers, SBs would be speced for Arties or Tachyons (lol)! I've camped with a buddy in a SB. In enemy territory, and yes, with patience you can brake through bubbled camps and such almost as consistently and effectively as every other cov op. Patience is what most complainers want, not cov-ops. And why should they fly SBs then? why not ceptors that cannot insta pop sth, or "original" cov-ops? You do realize we want covops cloak to hunt, not to escape gate camps right? Also, as I stated before, the quickest locking thing in the game (interceptors) should not be afraid of SB's. Guys, the missiles will not do ****. Nevermind. THey will. Never lock SB's, I was lying. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 18:23:00 - [59] Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 15/12/2007 06:12:56 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Hannobaal The Stealth Bomber is a more powerful ship than any other in its size and price class in Eve. It doesn't need a boost. Well that depends entirely on how you define "powerful". A well piloted inty will destroy a SB. A well piloted inty will most likely pop anything an SB can pop, and can also tackle and has much higher survivability. So, your logic is kinda faulty. Can two interceptors together put out more DPS than a Cruise fitted Raven? Can a Dreadnought put out enormous DPS. Yes. But it can't kill ****. You still didn't even recognize the fact that I stated an interceptor can do the job better. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 18:42:00 - [60] Originally by: Illyria Ambri It all boils down to Is it overpowered if the stealth bomber can arrive unseen. Currently whenever the bomber travels.. it announces its arrival by showing up on scan and overview before it cloaks. Meaning if we actually want surprise.. we need to be in position before the "target of oppertunity" arrives, otherwise they know we are there and maybe even know where we warped in to allowing intys to race to that spot and try to decloak in the 2km radius. If we get covops cloaks which i do support. then the bomber can actually arrive and leave claoked and ya know.. stealthy. Ppl are complaing that it would be overpowered when it wouldn't be too much. The same tactics to kill bombers still apply. When we shoot we have to remain on grid and visible for the impacts to do damage. The only difference is the fraction of a second that the bomber is visible when warping in or out. How many ppl are quick enough to get a bomber locked and popped in the time it takes to de-warp and cloak considering range and lock time.. not many if the bomber pilot has even a little bit of skill. Hence the best and still easily possible time to kill the bomber is when its shooting. Giving bombers the ability to warp cloaked wont deny this prime kill window. Bombers are ambush ships that can at most ambush 1 or 2 ships at a time if they are lucky.. any more in the area and the bomber is dead. We simply want the ability to perform our role w/o announcing our arrival to everyone on grid, or being regulated to camping a single location waiting for someone to come by and sit still long enough for us to get in range and fire. Can we instapop frigs.. yes. Can everyone else instapop us.. yes A bomber is most vulnerable when its shooting.. When its warping in or out.. the ambush is sprung and everyone knows its there and waiting for it making it a rather crappy ambush ship.. unless its already been sitting at that location... bored outta their minds waiting for a ship that it can kill before it warps off or kills the bomber (while it waits for its missiles to impact) This man speaks the truth (or lady, idk, probably man). --
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.15 18:50:00 - [61] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 15/12/2007 06:12:56 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Hannobaal The Stealth Bomber is a more powerful ship than any other in its size and price class in Eve. It doesn't need a boost. Well that depends entirely on how you define "powerful". A well piloted inty will destroy a SB. A well piloted inty will most likely pop anything an SB can pop, and can also tackle and has much higher survivability. So, your logic is kinda faulty. Can two interceptors together put out more DPS than a Cruise fitted Raven? Can a Dreadnought put out enormous DPS. Yes. But it can't kill **. You still didn't even recognize the fact that I stated an interceptor can do the job better. A stealth bomber on it's own can't kill much. That's why you don't use them on their own. An interceptor can't do what a Stealth Bomber can do, at all**. Let alone "better".
Magius Paulus Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.15 18:51:00 - [62] I like the bombers as they are atm. Actually it's my favorite ship. True, if they could warp cloaked i like them even more, but that is the case of any ship out there. To make the best of a bomber, like some others already replied, you have to combine them.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.15 18:59:00 - [63] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Edited by: Multras on 14/12/2007 21:34:01 NO, how many times are these threads going to pop up? Grow some skill noobs, the ship is fine. And I would really love to see an inty pop my manticore, it wont happen. Fine, it won't. You'll just stay cloaked mr. elite. Or ill insta pop his ass. LOL! Oh jesus, you're exactly why I log on. Oh god, that was good. Wooo. Ok, I've got a grip on myself. Now: You are going to instapop a interceptor? CMON! Did you go on EFT again? Play the game dude, a ceptor going 6km/s is not going to be touched by your damn missiles buddy. Seriously, stop letting people download EFT. Remove it. Actually, if we're talking a solo situation between a Stealth Bomber and an interceptor, and the stealth bomber is fitted properly for the situation), the worst case scenario for the bomber will be neither side being able to hurt the other.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 19:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Edited by: Multras on 14/12/2007 21:34:01 NO, how many times are these threads going to pop up? Grow some skill noobs, the ship is fine. And I would really love to see an inty pop my manticore, it wont happen. Fine, it won't. You'll just stay cloaked mr. elite. Or ill insta pop his ass. LOL! Oh jesus, you're exactly why I log on. Oh god, that was good. Wooo. Ok, I've got a grip on myself. Now: You are going to instapop a interceptor? CMON! Did you go on EFT again? Play the game dude, a ceptor going 6km/s is not going to be touched by your damn missiles buddy. Seriously, stop letting people download EFT. Remove it. Actually, if we're talking a solo situation between a Stealth Bomber and an interceptor, and the stealth bomber is fitted properly for the situation), the worst case scenario for the bomber will be neither side being able to hurt the other. Unless your Multras and let him get a lock on you. --
Multras Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.15 19:40:00 - [65] Edited by: Multras on 15/12/2007 19:45:09 Edited by: Multras on 15/12/2007 19:41:31 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Edited by: Multras on 14/12/2007 21:34:01 NO, how many times are these threads going to pop up? Grow some skill noobs, the ship is fine. And I would really love to see an inty pop my manticore, it wont happen. Fine, it won't. You'll just stay cloaked mr. elite. Or ill insta pop his ass. LOL! Oh jesus, you're exactly why I log on. Oh god, that was good. Wooo. Ok, I've got a grip on myself. Now: You are going to instapop a interceptor? CMON! Did you go on EFT again? Play the game dude, a ceptor going 6km/s is not going to be touched by your damn missiles buddy. Seriously, stop letting people download EFT. Remove it. Or learn to fly the ship, your the reason why I dont want SBs to have a covert ops cloak. Learn to think outside the box and the ship is great. And hanno is right. 1v1 the worst a ceptor can do to me is fly about uselessly. And its great that you are flaming me when you have never seen me fly the ship. Thanks to EVE Art Store for the sig.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.12.15 19:56:00 - [66] Originally by: Marcus Druallis You still didn't even recognize the fact that I stated an interceptor can do the job better. He probably can't think of a valid... or make up an imaginary argument to counter ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master Which is worse.. the Carebear or the pirate that whines about them?
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:23:00 - [67] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Marcus Druallis You still didn't even recognize the fact that I stated an interceptor can do the job better. He probably can't think of a valid... or make up an imaginary argument to counter An SB is a capable sniper. Huge Alpha strikes from far away... It actually can camp and be unseen, and can isnta-pop things. A ceptor is a GI running fast around a target shooting with a pistol. With enough ammo and time can do the same dmg, even more over time. It loses the "surprise" advantage tho. A sniper cannot enter the field unseen. Not "directly". He has to sneak in "from a distance". "Go around". Once in location, he can camouflage himself or invent shelters etc, "cloaking" himself. He can travel "unseen", tho he has to be slow and careful. It could take him DAYS stalking his pray. Patience is a prerequisite. The "GI" can act like Rambo, shooting directly at the opponent, shouting "get me #)@!)%!+)$ losers" etc...it can be done...will a skilled soldier that is... All armies have snipers. Still more GIs. Giving a GI a sniper rifle won't make him a stealthy assassin. Takes patience and training. So its all down to the rifle's manufacturer then...it's his fault! Nieeee...all the above are just @@... Back to the "ppl are more bored than dedicated to make SBs work" argument. RP explanations apparently suck.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:28:00 - [68] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Marcus Druallis You still didn't even recognize the fact that I stated an interceptor can do the job better. He probably can't think of a valid... or make up an imaginary argument to counter Well, considering that the interceptor and SB have totally different roles. Yeah, the inty is going to be better at it's role, while it certainly can't do the SB's role. Now, why again are we wondering if the interceptor can do a better job? _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:30:00 - [69] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Marcus Druallis You still didn't even recognize the fact that I stated an interceptor can do the job better. He probably can't think of a valid... or make up an imaginary argument to counter Nothing to counter. An interceptor simply can't do what the stealth bomber does. Not better, nor worse. It just can't, at all. However, groups of Stealth Bombers do need interceptor support to be able to do what they do.
Multras Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:31:00 - [70] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Marcus Druallis You still didn't even recognize the fact that I stated an interceptor can do the job better. He probably can't think of a valid... or make up an imaginary argument to counter Nothing to counter. An interceptor simply can't do what the stealth bomber does. Not better, nor worse. It just can't, at all. However, groups of Stealth Bombers do need interceptor support to be able to do what they do. Or a large bubble. Thanks to EVE Art Store for the sig.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:37:00 - [71] Edited by: Illyria Ambri on 15/12/2007 20:37:21 Originally by: Bruce Deorum An SB is a capable sniper. Huge Alpha strikes from far away... It actually can camp and be unseen, and can isnta-pop things. Assuming the target is AFk or for some.. odd reason decides not to warp out during the 30 second flgiht time of the missiles. Originally by: Bruce Deorum A sniper cannot enter the field unseen. Not "directly". He has to sneak in "from a distance". "Go around". Once in location, he can camouflage himself or invent shelters etc, "cloaking" himself. He can travel "unseen", tho he has to be slow and careful. The entire point of a sniper is to not be seen at all. We are visible and vulnerable when we fire. EvE snipers are forced to show themselves. Entering the field unseen is the entire point. Dosen't matter how you do it.. cause once you are seen by popping up on overview as you warp in.. surprise over. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master Which is worse.. the Carebear or the pirate that whines about them?
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:42:00 - [72] Originally by: Bruce Deorum clip A sniper cannot enter the field unseen. Not "directly". He has to sneak in "from a distance". "Go around". Once in location, he can camouflage himself or invent shelters etc, "cloaking" himself. He can travel "unseen", tho he has to be slow and careful. It could take him DAYS stalking his pray. Patience is a prerequisite. clip Very well said, well said. Like I have said before, perhaps a increase to the SB's cloak speed boost would be more appropriate in this regard, over warping while cloaked. It would allow the SB to stalk the field more effectively, maintaining the above feel on how it hunts. Without making all of the covert ships the same. Otherwise, yes, the SB is fine the way it is now. _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:48:00 - [73] Edited by: Selene Le''Cotiere on 15/12/2007 20:49:48 Originally by: Illyria Ambri The entire point of a sniper is to not be seen at all. We are visible and vulnerable when we fire. EvE snipers are forced to show themselves. Entering the field unseen is the entire point. Dosen't matter how you do it.. cause once you are seen by popping up on overview as you warp in.. surprise over. Perhaps what you are wanting then, is the ability to lock targets while cloaked. Which, while nice, would be a very powerful ability. As far as entering the field, if you plan ahead and are patient, you can enter the area cloaked. EDIT: "he entire point of a sniper is to not be seen at all." I thought sniping in EVE was about range mostly. _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Lisento Slaven Amarr Lisento and Miscellaneous Elk	Posted - 2007.12.15 21:02:00 - [74] Currently I hide in an asteroid belt cloaked and wait for people to come in and engage the rats or just sit there for a minute. If I feel I can take on the target, I de-cloak, lock, scramble (yes I'm solo), and tap him with 2x dampeners to increase his lock time. I'm usually about 20 - 23km away from them. If they are fighting the rats, even better. Being able to warp while cloaked will give me free reign of WHERE I can fight instead of just waiting in location X and hoping they go there. I fight in LOW-SEC so I can not engage on the stations or the gates unless I declare war (which I do not do often). I can only see cov-ops cloaking giving my stealth bomber more maneuverability. Now as far as 0.0 ops go...cov-ops cloak + bombs...I don't know. I would certainly like the cov ops cloak on my stealth bomber considering it can't tank anything. No really...it can't tank. It dies if it starts getting shot at. It also falls quickly to the whole cost-benefit analysis. Very limited array of targets you can take on by yourself. The more ships you add to your gang, why bother flying the stealth bomber anyways unless you just want to "look cool" when you can fly a t2 fitted Cruiser capable of doing more? I don't know. I just fly the stealth bomber because I like using ships everyone hates. If I could get a gang of stealth bombers together to just roam with I would. But we would die very quickly since we can't warp while cloaked and everyone would see us coming into the system (low-sec mind you, can't engage on gates so no point in cloaking on the gate and waiting). Then they just fit up to counter if they're able to. The ability to warp while cloaked would give me the opportunity to leave the system instead of sitting and waiting in it...yarrr...and more stuff probably. --- Put in space whales!
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 22:24:00 - [75] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Originally by: Bruce Deorum clip A sniper cannot enter the field unseen. Not "directly". He has to sneak in "from a distance". "Go around". Once in location, he can camouflage himself or invent shelters etc, "cloaking" himself. He can travel "unseen", tho he has to be slow and careful. It could take him DAYS stalking his pray. Patience is a prerequisite. clip Very well said, well said. Like I have said before, perhaps a increase to the SB's cloak speed boost would be more appropriate in this regard, over warping while cloaked. It would allow the SB to stalk the field more effectively, maintaining the above feel on how it hunts. Without making all of the covert ships the same. Otherwise, yes, the SB is fine the way it is now. Tbh, why do you need more speed once you are on the grid. You are firing from very long ranges (or should be, key is not to be locked). Most of your targets are going to be near to a station or gate. Why would you need to move fast, the idea is to camp within a range that you know you can hit them at. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 22:26:00 - [76] Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 15/12/2007 22:26:41 Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Edited by: Selene Le''Cotiere on 15/12/2007 20:49:48 Originally by: Illyria Ambri The entire point of a sniper is to not be seen at all. We are visible and vulnerable when we fire. EvE snipers are forced to show themselves. Entering the field unseen is the entire point. Dosen't matter how you do it.. cause once you are seen by popping up on overview as you warp in.. surprise over. Perhaps what you are wanting then, is the ability to lock targets while cloaked. Which, while nice, would be a very powerful ability. As far as entering the field, if you plan ahead and are patient, you can enter the area cloaked. Second, eve sniping IS all about range. That's why you don't compare RL and EVE. EDIT: "he entire point of a sniper is to not be seen at all." I thought sniping in EVE was about range mostly. Firstly, we don't want to be able to lock cloaked. We have outright TOLD you what we want. We want the ability to move cloaked, until we decide to strike. You keep telling me patience. I have camped for hours in HED without a single hostile coming through the gate. I have plenty of patience. I'm just stating that I'd rather go to known hostile systems and be able to warp cloaked, so that my prey does not know exactly where the hell I am at all times in system. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 22:29:00 - [77] Originally by: Multras Edited by: Multras on 15/12/2007 19:45:09 Edited by: Multras on 15/12/2007 19:41:31 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Multras Edited by: Multras on 14/12/2007 21:34:01 NO, how many times are these threads going to pop up? Grow some skill noobs, the ship is fine. And I would really love to see an inty pop my manticore, it wont happen. Fine, it won't. You'll just stay cloaked mr. elite. Or ill insta pop his ass. LOL! Oh jesus, you're exactly why I log on. Oh god, that was good. Wooo. Ok, I've got a grip on myself. Now: You are going to instapop a interceptor? CMON! Did you go on EFT again? Play the game dude, a ceptor going 6km/s is not going to be touched by your damn missiles buddy. Seriously, stop letting people download EFT. Remove it. Or learn to fly the ship, your the reason why I dont want SBs to have a covert ops cloak. Learn to think outside the box and the ship is great. And hanno is right. 1v1 the worst a ceptor can do to me is fly about uselessly. And its great that you are flaming me when you have never seen me fly the ship. Oh I didn't flame you about what the ceptor can do to you. Read again. "Or ill insta pop his ass." --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 22:33:00 - [78] Originally by: twit brent bombers would make rediculously good tacklers because they can go anywhere in system sneak up on enemies then instalock and tackle with no delay. This throws out the balance of covert ops cloaks completely and is the reason they use improved claok II's. That is why recons have targeting delay. Then by your logic covops ships are overpowered. --
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.12.15 22:40:00 - [79] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Perhaps what you are wanting then, is the ability to lock targets while cloaked. Which, while nice, would be a very powerful ability. Negative.. we want to be able to approach a target or gate camp without having to have been there before they arrived. This is not us asking for more damage or faster lock times or range. This is bomber pilots wanting to be able to do their job w/o necessarily having to be in position ahead of time. If there are 10 people camping a gate and lets say 2 inty's. Bomber warps in.. pops up on overview and the whole camp knows he's there, surprise over. We would simply like the ability to arrive cloaked... even if we cannot start a warp while cloaked... we just want to be able to arrive at our destination cloaked so we have a chance of actually surprising a camp and getting a chance for a kill. Remember once we decloak.. the whole camp starts targeting.. we get 1 chance that lasts as long as our missiles are in flight or as shortly as it takes for the nano ships to get in range (which we all know is a hell of alot less then 30 seconds). Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere As far as entering the field, if you plan ahead and are patient, you can enter the area cloaked. Yes its called arriving ahead of time and camping. Because if we don't arrive ahead of time and cloak.. then everyone and their grandmothers know when we arrive. Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere "he entire point of a sniper is to not be seen at all." I thought sniping in EVE was about range mostly. Bomber fires from 200km away from your,lets say you are flying a frigate of some sort, ship. that will take about 30 seconds to impact. A. Do you warp out B. Do you hit your MWD and race around outrunning or negating explosion radius C. Sit still and wait for the missiles to hit you D. Burn back to the gate and jump out. E. Any of the above while the nanos of your gang race and lock the bomber forcing him to die in the off chance his missiles will hit first.. or warp away, again negating any damage. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master Which is worse.. the Carebear or the pirate that whines about them?
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 23:15:00 - [80] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Perhaps what you are wanting then, is the ability to lock targets while cloaked. Which, while nice, would be a very powerful ability. Negative.. we want to be able to approach a target or gate camp without having to have been there before they arrived. This is not us asking for more damage or faster lock times or range. This is bomber pilots wanting to be able to do their job w/o necessarily having to be in position ahead of time. If there are 10 people camping a gate and lets say 2 inty's. Bomber warps in.. pops up on overview and the whole camp knows he's there, surprise over. We would simply like the ability to arrive cloaked... even if we cannot start a warp while cloaked... we just want to be able to arrive at our destination cloaked so we have a chance of actually surprising a camp and getting a chance for a kill. Remember once we decloak.. the whole camp starts targeting.. we get 1 chance that lasts as long as our missiles are in flight or as shortly as it takes for the nano ships to get in range (which we all know is a hell of alot less then 30 seconds). This. --
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.15 23:23:00 - [81] Has anyone EVER considered setting up BM's off grid and approaching the gate/belt, what have you, cloaked? Would a increased speed boost help cover those distances better, or to help set up said BM's? Oh yeah. Does it achieve the same result as warping while cloaked? Yup. Does it take patience and planning? Yup Which would you have? Instant gratification or play a nice game of chess with your opponent? _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.15 23:45:00 - [82] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Has anyone EVER considered setting up BM's off grid and approaching the gate/belt, what have you, cloaked? Would a increased speed boost help cover those distances better, or to help set up said BM's? Oh yeah. Does it achieve the same result as warping while cloaked? Yup. Does it take patience and planning? Yup Which would you have? Instant gratification or play a nice game of chess with your opponent? Not even close to warping in cloaked. YOu know, you can see the person warp in. When you see a big red square fly into your screen, you tend to take another look. --
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.12.15 23:52:00 - [83] I'll just add you to the list of "instant gratification" people... _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
RoadKill101 Gallente Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2007.12.16 00:01:00 - [84] im a constant and proud user of Stealthbombers and they are fine as it is. just because one cloak ship can do somthing does not give access for another cloak ship to do it, just because they are 'similar' if u want to gank in a cloaker... use, a, recon? stop picking, ships are different for a reason ---------------------------------- llama's rule!
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.12.16 00:11:00 - [85] Plz dont compare to RL... You do realize snipers spend days getting in position and wait to ambush their targets (not just paradropping invisisible down into position) - I'm a nice guy!! But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored...
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.16 00:33:00 - [86] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Perhaps what you are wanting then, is the ability to lock targets while cloaked. Which, while nice, would be a very powerful ability. Negative.. we want to be able to approach a target or gate camp without having to have been there before they arrived. This is not us asking for more damage or faster lock times or range. This is bomber pilots wanting to be able to do their job w/o necessarily having to be in position ahead of time. If there are 10 people camping a gate and lets say 2 inty's. Bomber warps in.. pops up on overview and the whole camp knows he's there, surprise over. Yes, surprise is over... Still you can cloak and start moving before they can get a hold of you...plan your moves and attack a target of opportunity. "Playing the SB's game right" in SUFFICIENT numbers you could take out 1-2 targets with well organized - decloaks - missile firing-and insta pops - re-cloaks, or even the "decloak-fire-wait for missile to approach - deckloak for missile to hit - and cloak again" technique discribed already. Damps are your friends and you could be pushing your self even further away while waiting for the missiles to go critically close to the victim. Originally by: Illyria Ambri Bomber fires from 200km away from your,lets say you are flying a frigate of some sort, ship. that will take about 30 seconds to impact. Now, that's the weak link in your logic. Cruise missiles can hit up to 200km away...good point... Have you seen gang-Cruise-Ravens MWDing away before they launch their load? No...up to 200km range does not mean "must from 200km range"... A single SB can push you ~100km locking range, but that "buys time" for the victim, yet also for the SB to warp out should sth goes wrong. So long ranges are recommended if a dedicated tackler assures that the "victim" is not going anywhere like you are. Be bold. Ppl put scramblers, even webs in their SBs to engage up-close and personal. That's the meaning of picking targets and choosing weather you should decloak the first time. The SB dictates range so also the available time between decloak and impact - this is a double edge sword and there lies the whole "magic" that pays up for the camping boredom! Thus why an instant damaging or even "cloaked warping" SB would be overpowered. It could dictate each and every engagement with possibly no restrictions other than numbers. A typical 20-man gang just with SBs could warp-decloak-insta dmg/pop-recloak and harass almost ANYTHING, not even requiring tackling. Believe me. Even experienced PvPers are harassed by SBs in their homeland. Ratting and missioning stops, lots of commotion is going on, transportation of goods is postponed etc...the element of surprise does not goes off when you know that 2-3 SBs are around. Very effective gangs like that can simply camp AFK a pipe route and discomfort quite many That alone is something when you are doing behind enemy lines. I'll repeat - get 1-2 friends with you in SBs...3 SBs can pop may things with 1-2 volleys. Sensor booster and 24km scram on one of these, locking scrip dampeners and/or SB on the others...can pop MANY things quite safely, without giving re-aproaching etc options to anything smaller (effective HP wise) than a HAS. Even Bigger ships can be screw*d with more SBs similarly fitted.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.12.16 01:17:00 - [87] I tackle bomber and 1-2 for support is awesome... ofcourse there is risc - I'm a nice guy!! But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored...
Megan Maynard Minmatar Clearspace Operations Carpe Diem.	Posted - 2007.12.16 06:30:00 - [88] 2 things. 1. You can't uncloak, shoot, and cloak immediately anymore. Making you one giant expensive target. I don't understand why that changed from Rev 2..... Made you stealthy but still not invincible. Now you have to wait 20-30 seconds if you are far away, uncloaked, and just waiting to be targeted and therefore have to warp out. Some may see this as overpowered but when your ship costs 30-40 mil and dies to anything that gets some hits on it.... 2. Bombs still can't be launched anywhere but 0.0. So you can smartbomb the hell out of someone but can't bomb them? Stupid. Plus the dang things are mineral heavy. The price is way jacked up so the supposedly "primary" weapon of the stealth BOMBer is too damn expensive, and can't be used anywhere but 0.0. I could care less for a cov-ops cloak, i was doing fine before the nerfed the shooting then cloaking functionality of the ship.
corroded	Posted - 2007.12.16 08:48:00 - [89] a couple of more opinions from little ol' me then. 1. having a humongous collection of bm's is a thing of the past. i have no wish to EVER having to make an offgrid bm just so i can do what the ship says in the description. its a workaround that shouldnt be needed. 2. having a covops cloak i personally dont agree with, even if the sb's would still be more than likely to die every time they fire. 3. as it is now, every time we land, our role is forfeit, the enemy knows of our presence and either warps or mwd's over to decloak, scram/web and pop our asses (unless theyre afk that is) 4. the only really viable use nowadays is to decloak last in a fleet so we wont be targeted. OR To park our asses somewhere and hope and pray that something without a <10 sec locktime and a gun will come by and stand still while we kill it. a couple of different solutions: 1: replace cloak with a covops.. And replace cruises with torps. it would force us closer and make us more liable to get popped, small targets wouldnt be insta-popped unless webbed. benefits would be that we can take on some bigger targets, if the situation is appropriate. 2: increasing stealthed speed would be somewhat tricky to balance out, so instead enable us to activate non-agressive mods while stealthed (mwd/ab sens-booster or just speedmods.) tbh, its a bit silly that we cant atm, all that rule is doing is being an annoyance. 3: allow us to lock without unstealthing (would function as a passive targetting) target would be alerted of the lock the moment we uncloak as the usual rule. 4: crazy solution, revoke the use of missiles on sb's, lower prices on bomblaunchers and bombs to sane munition-levels. i.e around 500k for unnamed t1 launcher and upwards, bombs costing a maximum of 2-3 mill depending on type, double that on t2 variants when/if available. (obviously ecm and neut bombs would be rather cheap compared to concussions)would sadly mean 0.0 only, though. devs have stated in the past that bombs are ment to be used to help break up the big blobs in eve, and that sb's are niche-ships. so why not go the distance and make it truly so? thats all i can think of atm

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