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Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 19:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote: Rather than stockpiling forever with minimal consequence, any and ALL unspent points are lost upon being podded.
Imagine that then. You've spent a long time saving up points on a special character. You almost have enough to get that last level 5 you need to fly that awesome ship or fit that t2 gang link, and then somebody comes along and blows it all away. Would you really call it fair? I wouldn't. (...rage quit!) No, I'd rather just lose the usual amount if we die without a clone or it's insufficient. Otherwise they should be fully covered.
Callic Veratar wrote: Rather than training from two attributes at the same time, I would suggest only being able to train one attribute at a time, requiring you to swap the skills regularly to get what you'd like.
You have to swap them either way but, why limit it to only one attribute when regular skill training always generates points from two attributes? primary + (secondary/2)
Also keep in mind that you can only remap your attribute points once a year and, if you put all of your points into one attribute and the rest into another, you will only generate the most skill points from those two attributes. If those are not the two attributes you set in the generic skill while it's training, it will only generate skill points at or near the minimum.
Callic Veratar wrote: Penalties could be introduced that slow training speed the more generic points you have saved up.
No because it is completely unnecessary and doesn't fix or improve anything.
Not every improvement to the game needs to be accompanied by a penalty of equal or greater magnitude. |

mxzf
Shovel Bros
495
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 19:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Griptus wrote:And if they end up nerfing the Chimera in the following winter patch, or buffing something else to counter the Chimera, then the consequences are the same.
But if they nerf the Chimera before you finish training the skills with your system, then there are no consequences whatsoever. See the difference? |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 20:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Griptus wrote: And if they end up nerfing the Chimera in the following winter patch, or buffing something else to counter the Chimera, then the consequences are the same.
But if they nerf the Chimera before you finish training the skills with your system, then there are no consequences whatsoever. See the difference? No. There will always be consequences no matter what you do. |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7020
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 01:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
Griptus wrote:mxzf wrote:Griptus wrote: And if they end up nerfing the Chimera in the following winter patch, or buffing something else to counter the Chimera, then the consequences are the same.
But if they nerf the Chimera before you finish training the skills with your system, then there are no consequences whatsoever. See the difference? No. There will always be consequences no matter what you do. Yes, but your idea removes great swathes of them, leaving no real consequences to speak of.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 13:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Griptus wrote: There will always be consequences no matter what you do.
Yes, but your idea removes great swathes of them, leaving no real consequences to speak of. What and how? Be more specific. |

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
188
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 15:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
Griptus wrote:Mag's wrote:Griptus wrote: There will always be consequences no matter what you do.
Yes, but your idea removes great swathes of them, leaving no real consequences to speak of. What and how? Be more specific.
Please don't propose ideas that you haven't clearly thought through. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 15:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
Please don't reply to topics you haven't clearly read through. |

mxzf
Shovel Bros
528
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 15:48:00 -
[38] - Quote
Griptus wrote:Please don't reply to topics you haven't clearly read through.
Honestly, it's been answered a dozen times, both in this thread and a few other SP threads in the last few days. Repeating the same thing over and over to posters who don't listen grows exceedingly tiresome. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 16:04:00 -
[39] - Quote
You can waste your breath all you want, it doesn't bother me. My idea is fair and sound and I'll keep bumping it up until I know it's at least been heard by the people it was intended for. |

XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
199
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 16:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
Biomass your character(s). |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 16:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote: Biomass your character(s).
I have. Many times. |

XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
203
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 16:10:00 -
[42] - Quote
Biomass this one and save us from your terrible ideas/posting. |

Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
146
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 17:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
Griptus wrote:Callic Veratar wrote: Rather than stockpiling forever with minimal consequence, any and ALL unspent points are lost upon being podded.
Imagine that then. You've spent a long time saving up points on a special character. You almost have enough to get that last level 5 you need to fly that awesome ship or fit that t2 gang link, and then somebody comes along and blows it all away. Would you really call it fair? I wouldn't. (...rage quit!) No, I'd rather just lose the usual amount if we die without a clone or it's insufficient. Otherwise they should be fully covered.
Then don't stockpile. Spend the points on a skill before you have enough to complete it or train it directly. If you know what you want to train, why are you wasting your time with a generic skill? The advantage of flexible skill points that mean you don't need to decide now is offset by the fact that if you don't decide now, you might not get to decide at all. It gets into the state where, in a blind panic upon losing a ship, you may be forced to dump your loose SP in to the first skill you can click on, but it adds RISK.
The point of training one attribute at a time is to reduce complexity in the idea. With 5 generic skills, you can pop one in your queue with the current setup and the points go directly to a bank. With a mixable system you either need 20 skills or a new gui system to allow you to set primary and secondary attributes which may or may not work with the queue. My modification to your idea is as an addition to the current system, not a replacement.
I agree on later reading, that having a reduced training speed for having too many is too much of a penalty and would like to retract the idea. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 21:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:Griptus wrote:Callic Veratar wrote: Rather than stockpiling forever with minimal consequence, any and ALL unspent points are lost upon being podded.
I'd rather just lose the usual amount if we die without a clone or it's insufficient. Otherwise they should be fully covered. Then don't stockpile. Spend the points now or you might not get to decide at all. Then what's the point of having a clone? It would be most regressive to young characters who most often lose at pvp, suicide gank, and unexpected high sec gate camps under war decs. The generic skill is meant to reduce grief, not make it worse.
Callic Veratar wrote: The point of training one attribute at a time is to reduce complexity in the idea. With 5 generic skills, you can pop one in your queue with the current setup and the points go directly to a bank. With a mixable system you either need 20 skills or a new gui system to allow you to set primary and secondary attributes which may or may not work with the queue. My modification to your idea is as an addition to the current system, not a replacement.
There would only be one generic skill per character. |

Katalci
D.I.R.T
24
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 02:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
Make it use the lowest attribute only, and then you have a decent idea. |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7267
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 08:44:00 -
[46] - Quote
Griptus wrote:Mag's wrote:Griptus wrote: There will always be consequences no matter what you do.
Yes, but your idea removes great swathes of them, leaving no real consequences to speak of. What and how? Be more specific. I already was specific and you said it was unfair. You then proceeded to tell me I'm against because: "Still you complain and exaggerate because you don't want to admit that you prefer that other characters be allowed to fall behind as it puts you ahead." You really have no idea about even the basics of skill points, for if you did, you wouldn't have said such a ridiculous thing.
Your idea is neither balanced, fair or sound and you've yet to prove otherwise. Simply saying it, doesn't make it so.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
189
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 08:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
I like the way the OP is "liking" every post in this thread to give the impression that his awful thread is popular. Unfortunately, the disguise rather falls apart upon opening the thread... |

Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
149
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 13:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
Griptus wrote:Then what's the point of having a clone? It would be most regressive to young characters who most often lose at pvp, suicide gank, and unexpected high sec gate camps under war decs. The generic skill is meant to reduce grief, not make it worse.
The point of a clone is the same as the point of a clone now: To prevent the loss of trained skills. The only difference you've offered in your proposal is to add an extra step in training any skills, in that you allocate the points after you have enough, instead of as you earn them. I'd much rather see a hybrid system than one or the other.
On a side note, I'd like to see the removal of clones completely, as they add an unnecessary tax that doesn't really deliver anything useful. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
7
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 14:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
A long time ago, someone at CCP decided that skill points should be subject to loss when a character dies. I think it was a bad idea because it discourages combat. But they at least had the good sense to give us clones so we have a way of saving our skill points and to limit the loss otherwise.
To be consistent with the original intent of the clone system, unallocated skill points shouldn't be subject to loss if they can't be saved by clones. And if clones are ever removed from the game, which is way beyond the scope of my proposal, then none of our skills points should be subject to loss. I'd prefer it that way because it encourages combat.
It's bad enough that 80% of players never leave high sec. Your idea would not only discourage combat further, it would force everyone to stay docked. You and your friends could simply camp the stations and suicide gank anyone who comes out, preventing them from progressing. That would effectively end the game for everyone, including CCP. |

SGT FUNYOUN
Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Bringers of Death.
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 19:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
Better idea.
Extend the training queue to fit up to 2 more skills (no matter how long they will take) beyond the end of the last skill in the queue. A rolling end time of sorts.
IOW, skill 1 takes 23 days to complete. That is the current end of your skill queue.
Now add my idea.
Add the two skills that come after the skill you are training as a prereqisite to them, and the end of THAT will be the end of the queue whenever it ends.
So say you have to train up two prerequisites for one skill, you can schedule them both in front of the goal skill, and viola...
nice long skill queue that you don't have to touch again for at least a month.
"Problem" solved. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
7
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 03:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
The fundamental problem is that all skill training eventually ends thereby creating the potential for loss of skill points. The problem can never be properly addressed by tweaking the skill queue. It can only be addressed by some kind of infinite skill training which must necessarily be distinct from regular skill training. |

Velarra
Ghost Festival Naraka.
39
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 04:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
Griptus wrote:I think I ranted too much about the skill queue in my OP.
The fundamental problem is that all skill training eventually ends thereby creating the potential for loss of skill points. The problem can never be properly addressed by tweaking the skill queue, even if it were extended indefinitely.
Suggestion: train as things are currently.
Should RL get in the way, make it a habit to have 25, 30, 40+ day skills available to switch into.
Yes, it does require the ability to log in once to make the switch, but otherwise it's one way to adapt to the current training challenges as they exist. No need for serious changes to any of he skill training mechanisms. |

mxzf
Shovel Bros
553
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 04:49:00 -
[53] - Quote
Griptus wrote:The fundamental problem is that all skill training eventually ends thereby creating the potential for loss of skill points.
This isn't a 'problem' though, it's a feature. There's always a potential for missed skill points (not lost, because you never had them to begin with). Whenever you're not training skills, you're getting less SP than you could have, but you're also getting less SP than you could have if you are using anything other than a fully speced skill map with +5s in the relevant attributes.
Part of the core of Eve is the decisions behind the skills you train and how you train them. Do I train X skill now with a good mapping or do I train Y because I need it more, despite having a bad attribute map? (something I made a decision about just this week personally). Do I use a set of +5s for maximum training or do I use +3/4s because they're cheaper and I can afford to replace them? Do I log in now to add another skill to the queue or do I blow it off because I don't feel like it?
Actions have consequences in Eve, this is by design. |

Velarra
Ghost Festival Naraka.
41
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 06:29:00 -
[54] - Quote
About the only positive thought that comes to mind reading this current thread/idea would be something along the lines of a "hit by a bus" preselected (player chosen, say freighter V or what have you) skill that only kicks in once a year, under condition of no other skill training, where a short skill has just completed.. on characters with a minimum of 9-12 months of age or older.
Where you choose a LONG skill that kicks in should you not be able to cue up your current skills as per normal play.
The issue is that natural disasters DO happen. People do get hit by buses. It's not always easy to go in and switch skills to a 40 day skill when your town is flooded....
This idea here probably would need an awful lot of pre-nerfing & consideration. But it's about as far as i'd go. Otherwise, keep long skills available for those planned 2week vacations and 3 week trips. |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
7278
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 14:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
Griptus wrote:I think I ranted too much about the skill queue in my OP.
The fundamental problem is that all skill training eventually ends thereby creating the potential for loss of skill points. The problem can never be properly addressed by tweaking the skill queue, even if it were extended indefinitely. Your idea makes the queue obsolete and removes any balance in that regard.
The fundamental problem is, your idea removes consequences and the difficult decisions we have to make now. The fact that you cannot address that point to any degree, speaks volumes.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |

Velicitia
Open Designs
534
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 15:44:00 -
[56] - Quote
Mag's wrote:... the difficult decisions we have to make now.
spend 30s setting skill ... or... immediately log and come to bed when [partner|wife|gf] is in something revealing
decisions, decisions... 
|

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
7
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 15:45:00 -
[57] - Quote
Mag's wrote: Your idea makes the queue obsolete...
Which means it's a better idea. Thank you.
Mag's wrote: and removes any balance in that regard.
Who does it favor, or disfavor?
Mag's wrote: Your idea removes consequences and the difficult decisions we have to make now. The fact that you cannot address that point to any degree, speaks volumes.
It doesn't matter when you make your skill training decisions, they always have consequences.
You've made these logically erroneous arguments many times only to reject my superior wisdom and guidance. Give yourself all the time you need, it should sink in eventually. |

Velicitia
Open Designs
534
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 15:59:00 -
[58] - Quote
Griptus wrote:Mag's wrote: Your idea makes the queue obsolete...
Which means it's a better idea. Thank you. Not necessarily. The queue is working as intended in this regard, and shouldn't be removed (pre-queue days of planning around "work", "sleep", "school" and "downtime" were a pain).
Griptus wrote:Mag's wrote: and removes any balance in that regard.
Then who does it favor, or disfavor? "Balance" in the regard of "not forcing people to log in every day for 6 hours" (e.g. a traditional MMO) and "we still want you to log in semi-regularly". If you could set and forget 3 or 4 months of skills and not log in, what's there to keep you around?
Griptus wrote: You made this logically erroneous argument before.
It doesn't matter when you make your skill training decisions, they always have consequences.
removing the decision of "log in and set a skill" vs. "meh, that 3k SP isn't worth it" is what Mag's is talking about ... not "should I train Battleship 5 (which I don't want) instead of $SKILL" (I think)
|

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
7
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 16:22:00 -
[59] - Quote
mxzf wrote: This isn't a 'problem' though, it's a feature. There's always a potential for missed skill points (not lost, because you never had them to begin with). Whenever you're not training skills, you're getting less SP than you could have, but you're also getting less SP than you could have if you are using anything other than a fully speced skill map with +5s in the relevant attributes.
Losing SP is not a feature, it's a flaw. Missing something is the same as losing it. You miss/lose what you would otherwise have. When you're not training a skill, you're getting zero SP, which is infinitely less than even 1 SP.
mxzf wrote: Part of the core of Eve is the decisions behind the skills you train and how you train them. Do I train X skill now with a good mapping or do I train Y because I need it more, despite having a bad attribute map? (something I made a decision about just this week personally). Do I use a set of +5s for maximum training or do I use +3/4s because they're cheaper and I can afford to replace them? Do I log in now to add another skill to the queue or do I blow it off because I don't feel like it?
Actions have consequences in Eve, this is by design.
Of course it changes the factors that you based you decisions on, that's unavoidable. But it doesn't eliminate the need to make decisions, if that's your impression. |

Velicitia
Open Designs
541
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 16:28:00 -
[60] - Quote
Griptus wrote:mxzf wrote: This isn't a 'problem' though, it's a feature. There's always a potential for missed skill points (not lost, because you never had them to begin with). Whenever you're not training skills, you're getting less SP than you could have, but you're also getting less SP than you could have if you are using anything other than a fully speced skill map with +5s in the relevant attributes.
Losing SP is not a feature, it's a flaw. Missing something is the same as losing it. You miss/lose what you would otherwise have. When you're not training a skill, you're getting zero SP, which is infinitely less than even 1 SP. actually, it's only 1 less  |
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