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Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 10:43:00 - [1] Congratulation ! You are feeding the very beast that caused the prices to crash. In short-term, getting your isk back from a no-demand investment may seem like a good idea. But in long-term, you are pretty much insuring that any future attempt at profitable invention of high-price items are doomed to follow this path.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.16 11:05:00 - [2] Well, thats what people get for oversaturating the market. It's got to the point where any Tom **** and Harry can start mass production of anything ~Nyron
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.12.16 11:56:00 - [3] I'm not quite sure what you mean by "0 profit". If it's an inventor who just can't sell his blueprint at all since nobody seems to be buying, there is profit to be had in manufacturing and selling at close to no markup. If somebody bought a decent ME blueprint cheap from a clueless inventor, he might be manufacturing it cheaper as you think, so he still makes a profit. Of course, it's safer to assume nowadays that people are stupid and sell for no markup, but you never know... some people might just be smarter as you expect them to be, profiteering on the backs of the others that are stupid. If you think people are selling for 0 profit, well, you know what to do, don't you ? Buy their stock and relist as whatever markup you deem appropriate. That was ALWAYS the way to deal with "minerals I reprocess from ore I mine are free" people. I fail to see why this shouldn't apply in here too. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Daeva Vios PhaseShifter Technologies Legion of Honor	Posted - 2007.12.16 11:58:00 - [4] Edited by: Daeva Vios on 16/12/2007 11:58:22 Is there a particular reason to care? If it isn't profitable, don't build. When the market reaches saturation, the only thing you can do aside from what Akita suggested is pull out and find a more lucrative market. You're not forced to sell only one thing. Don't act like you are. It makes you look foolish.
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.16 14:29:00 - [5] Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 16/12/2007 14:34:13 Originally by: Kirjava It's got to the point where any Tom Dick and Harry can start mass production of anything HA! HA! Everybody wanted invention to get a piece of the T2 profits, too bad theres no profit because of the inventards. But hey, look at the bright side, at the cost of ruining the profitbility of manufacturing and ruining players career paths (manufacturing), items are selling for less than what they cost to produce. Excuse me while I laugh all of the way to the bank. ---
Noveron Caldari Long Live Me	Posted - 2007.12.16 14:45:00 - [6] dont warn them pal, we, the buyers are happy. ---
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.16 14:56:00 - [7] Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 16/12/2007 15:02:59 Originally by: Noveron dont warn them pal, we, the buyers are happy. Yeah, but if you invested all kinds of money into invention only to lose money hand over fist, you wouldn't be happy that you wasted your time. The problem with invention is there is no real risk, players can't go pew pew invention assets. It's like Hello Kitty Online. If invention was low-sec POS only, T2 items would be cheaper than they were before invention (good), and only players who worked as a team would be able to invent, not these solo station hugger players who don't even undock from Jita 4-4 and whine on the forum omg jita laggy ccp fix jita!!!! You need to have at least SOME smarts to run a low sec POS, the inventards would not have these smarts and therefore wouldnt exist, and any other inventards that come to low sec would promptly get blown out of the sky. Why do you think moon minerals are profitable? ---
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:10:00 - [8] To be quite honest I am looking at buying up the entire supply of ME datacores at some point in the future then trippleing them in price to make the BPO's worth more - I aim on buying a few of them in the future. ~Nyron
Daeva Vios PhaseShifter Technologies Legion of Honor	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:31:00 - [9] Originally by: Kirjava To be quite honest I am looking at buying up the entire supply of ME datacores at some point in the future then trippleing them in price to make the BPO's worth more - I aim on buying a few of them in the future. I've only ever seen MP and Akita get more blatant than that. Bravo sir.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Yeah, but if you invested all kinds of money into invention only to lose money hand over fist, you wouldn't be happy that you wasted your time. You obviously don't get it. I would never get caught doing something like that. You are the one who made a poor business choice and now you are paying for it, that is the way it should be. Anyone who chose to get into Marauder production deserves exactly what they are getting, period. Whining about it serves no purpose. People could either sell their excess stock at a loss and get the heck out of the market or they could hold that stock for months as no one buys it. Cashing out and trying to make up lost money in better markets is the smart move. If you lost money on Marauders, either invention or manufacturing, I laugh at you. You are the reason others make so much money. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

Corporati Capitalis Tollan Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:38:00 - [11] This thread is full with lol. Also do I sense a bitter T2 BPO owner lurking nearby?
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Kirjava Well, thats what people get for oversaturating the market. What means 'get'? Do you blame the peeps for their only possible use of the given gamemechanic? Originally by: Kirjava It's got to the point where any Tom ** and Harry can start mass production of anything Hm.. I bet you want be the first to loose his 256k+ skillpoints in production efficiency and his 512k+ SPs in mass production and his 2M+ SPs in advanced mass production and all the other skillpoints related to efficiently run a production biz, so that not every Tom, ** and Harry can start mass production of anything.. Well, that whole situation is what you get for a skillsystem/gamemechanic that misses oblivion and an ageing playerbase - it saturates in EVERY aspect (not only this production stuff and margins). If you solve this kind of problem, eve will run forever!!
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Shadarle You obviously don't get it. I would never get caught doing something like that. You are the one who made a poor business choice and now you are paying for it, that is the way it should be. I didn't invest a dime in invention, but a lot of people did. Originally by: Shadarle If you lost money on Marauders, either invention or manufacturing, I laugh at you. You are the reason others make so much money. I laugh at you. ---
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:46:00 - [14] I am being blatant because I have all these ideas all the time, I'm starting with a small IPO first because I don't have the capital for the larger ones. Interestingly there is a person who is wanting to buy Titan BPC at a fixed price as he sells Titan component packages..... mething he smells a proffit And yes, oversaturating the market with marauders, those people deserve it. I planned on going into production myself till I realised that hundreds of people had the same idea and the ships were highly specalised. ~Nyron
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: Kirjava Well, thats what people get for oversaturating the market. What means 'get'? Do you blame the peeps for their only possible use of the given gamemechanic? I don't blame them. I call them idiots for feeling they HAVE to use a particular game mechanic even if there is no reason to believe it will be profitable. They rolled the dice and are paying for it. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Daeva Vios PhaseShifter Technologies Legion of Honor	Posted - 2007.12.16 16:58:00 - [16] Now, let's not go too far here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with speculation. Speculation drives markets and has made many people here incredibly wealthy. The problem is coming here and whining when you make a poor choice and wind up losing. Every upward trend in any market has a downward trend somewhere down the line. If you have any sense at all you must realize before going into it that there's a chance that you've bet on the wrong horse, and not only will that horse come in last place, it may not even cross the finish line. Then again, if you had much sense you wouldn't be in here complaining that you'd lost money on Marauders. You'd accept the loss quietly and retain your dignity, then move whatever you had left into more profitable markets.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.12.16 17:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Daeva Vios Originally by: Kirjava To be quite honest I am looking at buying up the entire supply of ME datacores at some point in the future then trippleing them in price to make the BPO's worth more - I aim on buying a few of them in the future. I've only ever seen MP and Akita get more blatant than that. Bravo sir. Brutal honesty sometimes works 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.16 17:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Daeva Vios Now, let's not go too far here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with speculation. Speculation drives markets and has made many people here incredibly wealthy. The problem is coming here and whining when you make a poor choice and wind up losing. Every upward trend in any market has a downward trend somewhere down the line. If you have any sense at all you must realize before going into it that there's a chance that you've bet on the wrong horse, and not only will that horse come in last place, it may not even cross the finish line. Then again, if you had much sense you wouldn't be in here complaining that you'd lost money on Marauders. You'd accept the loss quietly and retain your dignity, then move whatever you had left into more profitable markets. Yup, agree with everything here. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Sphynx Stormlord Gallente Anqara Tech	Posted - 2007.12.16 18:24:00 - [19] I'm starting to think that excessivly built marauders will make great christmas presents. Not quite sure what else to do with them, though. Kinda wishing I had just sold the components instead, as they would have been worth more. Ah well, live and learn. At least I made a lot on the decryptor speculation.
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2007.12.16 18:26:00 - [20] There were plenty of signs this would happen. A couple of months ago I was all excited to get into tech 2 battleship production. I stocked up on some cores, got some ship data interfaces relatively cheap, all that stuff. I worked to build up my own cash so I'd have enough to get in the market. I figured Maruaders would be very popular among mission runners and some others. That still may be true, but what I really saw was all these people saying "yeah I'm getting ready for tech 2 battleship production" on the forums. There were soooo many people saying it that it became apparent the market would quickly become saturated, so I canceled my plans. I think the lesson of the day is that you need to pay attention to your surroundings. Situational awareness isn't just useful in shooters. Don't just assume things will go the way you think they'll go. I've made that mistake plenty of times before learning my lesson.

Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 18:36:00 - [21] Edited by: Vadimik on 16/12/2007 18:40:57 FYI: I'm not whining about any loss. I'm still at profit, to be honest, just not a high as I thought. Plus, I'll obviously have to cancel (or, at least, cut bigtime) my future marauder production plans. All I want is to try and prevent at least a couple of "inventors" from repeating the same stupid mistake, namely: selling their stock dirt cheap in the middle of ongoing market crash. If you want to make money in invention, learn to sacrifice quick sales for the wellfare of the market. Else every time you try to invent, you'll end up deep in the same **it.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.16 18:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Vadimik If you want to make money in invention, learn to sacrifice quick sales for the wellfare of the market. Yeah, if you want to do well in invention sacrifice your own sales so that Vaidimik can unload his stuff at a decent price. Anyone who cares more about a particular invention market than their own financial wellbeing is a moron. Not selling off your items as you watch them crash lower and lower just so you are not contributing to the crash is pure stupidity. No one else is going to stop unloading their stuff because you do. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 19:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Vadimik If you want to make money in invention, learn to sacrifice quick sales for the wellfare of the market. Yeah, if you want to do well in invention sacrifice your own sales so that Vaidimik can unload his stuff at a decent price. Anyone who cares more about a particular invention market than their own financial wellbeing is a moron. Not selling off your items as you watch them crash lower and lower just so you are not contributing to the crash is pure stupidity. No one else is going to stop unloading their stuff because you do. sigh It's ironic, in fact. If you don't want to believe me, fine, do whatever you deem fit. Just don't act all suprised when it turns out I managed to sell my stuff with a much higher profit margin by using the magical virtue of patience.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.12.16 19:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Akita T I'm not quite sure what you mean by "0 profit". If it's an inventor who just can't sell his blueprint at all since nobody seems to be buying, there is profit to be had in manufacturing and selling at close to no markup. If somebody bought a decent ME blueprint cheap from a clueless inventor, he might be manufacturing it cheaper as you think, so he still makes a profit. Of course, it's safer to assume nowadays that people are stupid and sell for no markup, but you never know... some people might just be smarter as you expect them to be, profiteering on the backs of the others that are stupid. If you think people are selling for 0 profit, well, you know what to do, don't you ? Buy their stock and relist as whatever markup you deem appropriate. That was ALWAYS the way to deal with "minerals I reprocess from ore I mine are free" people. I fail to see why this shouldn't apply in here too. exactly. what akita said. Originally by: Ricdic Ezoran is a dirty troll. Ezoran has been repoted to mods for trolling on this and many other threads As trolling continues Ezoran will continue to be reported If Ezoran persists then
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 19:18:00 - [25] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Akita T I'm not quite sure what you mean by "0 profit". If it's an inventor who just can't sell his blueprint at all since nobody seems to be buying, there is profit to be had in manufacturing and selling at close to no markup. If somebody bought a decent ME blueprint cheap from a clueless inventor, he might be manufacturing it cheaper as you think, so he still makes a profit. Of course, it's safer to assume nowadays that people are stupid and sell for no markup, but you never know... some people might just be smarter as you expect them to be, profiteering on the backs of the others that are stupid. If you think people are selling for 0 profit, well, you know what to do, don't you ? Buy their stock and relist as whatever markup you deem appropriate. That was ALWAYS the way to deal with "minerals I reprocess from ore I mine are free" people. I fail to see why this shouldn't apply in here too. exactly. what akita said. It's simple. I don't have free isk to buyout even three "0-profit" marauders, let alone all of them.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.16 19:50:00 - [26] Edited by: Shadarle on 16/12/2007 19:50:18 Originally by: Vadimik sigh It's ironic, in fact. Not quite sure how it is ironic, perhaps that isn't the word you wanted? Originally by: Vadimik If you don't want to believe me, fine, do whatever you deem fit. Just don't act all suprised when it turns out I managed to sell my stuff with a much higher profit margin by using the magical virtue of patience. Perhaps you mistakenly think profit margin is the most important thing to strive for when trading. I'll ask you this, Which is better: Selling at a 5% loss instantly Selling at 2% loss after 2 weeks Selling at a 0% loss after a month Selling at a 5% gain after 2 months I personally would take the 5% loss instantly so I could get out of the failed market and reinvest my money elsewhere. If you want to to hold 1 billion isk worth of items for an entire month to make 5% then thats your call. But it is probably why you don't have the isk to buy up the marauders that are under cost and I do, only I'm wise enough not to as the prices are going to keep going down. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 20:10:00 - [27] Edited by: Vadimik on 16/12/2007 20:11:45 Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 16/12/2007 19:50:18 Originally by: Vadimik sigh It's ironic, in fact. Not quite sure how it is ironic, perhaps that isn't the word you wanted? Originally by: Vadimik If you don't want to believe me, fine, do whatever you deem fit. Just don't act all suprised when it turns out I managed to sell my stuff with a much higher profit margin by using the magical virtue of patience. Perhaps you mistakenly think profit margin is the most important thing to strive for when trading. I'll ask you this, Which is better: Selling at a 5% loss instantly Selling at 2% loss after 2 weeks Selling at a 0% loss after a month Selling at a 5% gain after 2 months I personally would take the 5% loss instantly so I could get out of the failed market and reinvest my money elsewhere. If you want to to hold 1 billion isk worth of items for an entire month to make 5% then thats your call. But it is probably why you don't have the isk to buy up the marauders that are under cost and I do, only I'm wise enough not to as the prices are going to keep going down. It's ironic in that my attempt at a more stable market for everyone is seen as an attempt for a high price for my own sale only. 5% loss now is better, no doubt. If it's a stand-alone sale. Except... It's not the last time you sell something. And unless we learn to control invention market, we will keep ending up with tiny profits every time a new FOTM invention based item (with possibly good profits) appears.
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2007.12.16 20:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Vadimik we will keep ending up with tiny profits every time a new FOTM invention based item (with possibly good profits) appears. Exactly. It amazing me how much people will whine and moan about the force of gravity. That's the way it is, nothing you say will change it. Your writing only serves to exercise your finger muscles.
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 20:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Benvie Originally by: Vadimik we will keep ending up with tiny profits every time a new FOTM invention based item (with possibly good profits) appears. Exactly. It amazing me how much people will whine and moan about the force of gravity. That's the way it is, nothing you say will change it. Your writing only serves to exercise your finger muscles. Before invention producers managed to do just that - prevent prices from crashing. And that's exactly what happens in countless markets irl - companies cut their own sales to prevent market from crashing.
Ahn Riane Blue Star Surveying and Mapping Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.16 21:08:00 - [30] Edited by: Ahn Riane on 16/12/2007 21:08:33 Originally by: Vadimik And that's exactly what happens in countless markets irl - companies cut their own sales to prevent market from crashing. oh wait... guess thats why Milk was out the other day when I wanted to buy some.

Algorithm 5 Caldari Hakata Group Blade.	Posted - 2007.12.16 21:21:00 - [31] Originally by: Vadimik It's ironic in that my attempt at a more stable market for everyone is seen as an attempt for a high price for my own sale only. 5% loss now is better, no doubt. If it's a stand-alone sale. Except... It's not the last time you sell something. And unless we learn to control invention market, we will keep ending up with tiny profits every time a new FOTM invention based item (with possibly good profits) appears. Since you can't produce Marauders profitably, it's obvious you should leave that market. You leaving the market will help the invention market control itself.
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 21:31:00 - [32] Originally by: Algorithm 5 Originally by: Vadimik It's ironic in that my attempt at a more stable market for everyone is seen as an attempt for a high price for my own sale only. 5% loss now is better, no doubt. If it's a stand-alone sale. Except... It's not the last time you sell something. And unless we learn to control invention market, we will keep ending up with tiny profits every time a new FOTM invention based item (with possibly good profits) appears. Since you can't produce Marauders profitably, it's obvious you should leave that market. You leaving the market will help the invention market control itself. I think it's obvious that just asking everyone to leave is not going to work. Not to lower prices blindly in hopes of quick sales is another thing. And that's what I do - I do not lower my prices below some line.
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 22:07:00 - [33] FYI: Just sold a Kronos at 1 B. Jita price = 789m. That is all.
Mai Mailynn	Posted - 2007.12.16 22:07:00 - [34] Edited by: Mai Mailynn on 16/12/2007 22:09:51 I have 3 spare Vargurs now. All are being listed at 1 bil, and not going any lower. I don't need the capital they represent, I have another 8 billion in liquid funds atm. They're staying on the market at 1 bil till they sell, or I blow up the one I'm using and need another. :P That said, even insanely rich people would have to be foolish to look at this market and decide it'd be a good idea to buy up the 0 profit marauders and relist them at a more appropriate price. There's way too many with far too little demand, it would take ages to sell them all even if the rest of eve stopped building them entirely. :P
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 22:13:00 - [35] Originally by: Mai Mailynn Edited by: Mai Mailynn on 16/12/2007 22:09:51 I have 3 spare Vargurs now. All are being listed at 1 bil, and not going any lower. I don't need the capital they represent, I have another 8 billion in liquid funds atm. They're staying on the market at 1 bil till they sell, or I blow up the one I'm using and need another. :P That said, even insanely rich people would have to be foolish to look at this market and decide it'd be a good idea to buy up the 0 profit marauders and relist them at a more appropriate price. There's way too many with far too little demand, it would take ages to sell them all even if the rest of eve stopped building them entirely. :P
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.16 22:15:00 - [36] Originally by: Vadimik Originally by: Algorithm 5 Originally by: Vadimik It's ironic in that my attempt at a more stable market for everyone is seen as an attempt for a high price for my own sale only. 5% loss now is better, no doubt. If it's a stand-alone sale. Except... It's not the last time you sell something. And unless we learn to control invention market, we will keep ending up with tiny profits every time a new FOTM invention based item (with possibly good profits) appears. Since you can't produce Marauders profitably, it's obvious you should leave that market. You leaving the market will help the invention market control itself. I think it's obvious that just asking everyone to leave is not going to work. Not to lower prices blindly in hopes of quick sales is another thing. And that's what I do - I do not lower my prices below some line. Heh. The only difference is in your head. If you think each inventable item is going to follow this same trend then don't invent in the future. You leaving the field will help everyone else who decides to stay in. You can help the market by taking your own advice. You can also help the rest of us by not trying to help us with advice that would really help you more than us. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.16 22:24:00 - [37] Originally by: Shadarle Heh. The only difference is in your head. If you think each inventable item is going to follow this same trend then don't invent in the future. You leaving the field will help everyone else who decides to stay in. You can help the market by taking your own advice. You can also help the rest of us by not trying to help us with advice that would really help you more than us. You are free to follow my advice not. You are free to read my posts not. You are free to disagree totally with anything I say. You can even try and give your own advice. But one think you can't do is prevent me from posting my advice. And so I post. And once gain, I do invent and I get my profits. High profits. So my aim is more stable market for everyone, not profits for only greedy me, since I have them anyways.
Tauralathan NayTech Inc	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:23:00 - [38] I'm curious as to what numbers you are using to get 0% profit or even losses at 800 million per Kronos? Using Jita numbers, as of yesterday, I come up with 506,935,540 building cost per Kronos at ME -5. Assuming a Megathron hull is around 80 million, you're still picking up 200 million per unit in profit. Datacores*320 for 10 attempts is 480 million, best chance decryptors running you 130 million each (not really sure, haven't bought any as I stockpiled a lot prior to the patch) and you are only needing to sell 9 units before you are in the green. Now if you have maxed skills and max run BPCs, unless the gods really dislike you, there shouldn't be a problem succeeding 3 or 4 times per set of 10 attempts. So you are looking at 1.4 billion in profits for 3 successes, 2.5 billion for 4 successes or heaven forbid 3.6 billion for five successes. I guess you could be valuing your tech2 components at Jita price sell orders. Though anybody in the ship building business should be making their own components, in my opinion at least. PS: I am apparently in ur markets making them crash?
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.17 03:01:00 - [39] Originally by: Tauralathan I'm curious as to what numbers you are using to get 0% profit or even losses at 800 million per Kronos? Using Jita numbers, as of yesterday, I come up with 506,935,540 building cost per Kronos at ME -5. Assuming a Megathron hull is around 80 million, you're still picking up 200 million per unit in profit. Datacores320 for 10 attempts is 480 million, best chance decryptors running you 130 million each (not really sure, haven't bought any as I stockpiled a lot prior to the patch) and you are only needing to sell 9 units before you are in the green. Now if you have maxed skills and max run BPCs, unless the gods really dislike you, there shouldn't be a problem succeeding 3 or 4 times per set of 10 attempts. So you are looking at 1.4 billion in profits for 3 successes, 2.5 billion for 4 successes or heaven forbid 3.6 billion for five successes. I guess you could be valuing your tech2 components at Jita price sell orders. Though anybody in the ship building business should be making their own components, in my opinion at least. PS: I am apparently in ur markets making them crash? What would the cost of it be including the opportunity cost of not selling the t2 components on the market? Originally by:* Darcuese I wouldnt care about Goons tbh. Im more concern about ppl stupidity generally. I need more sig
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.17 03:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Tauralathan I'm curious as to what numbers you are using to get 0% profit or even losses at 800 million per Kronos? Using Jita numbers, as of yesterday, I come up with 506,935,540 building cost per Kronos at ME -5. Assuming a Megathron hull is around 80 million, you're still picking up 200 million per unit in profit. Datacores*320 for 10 attempts is 480 million, best chance decryptors running you 130 million each (not really sure, haven't bought any as I stockpiled a lot prior to the patch) and you are only needing to sell 9 units before you are in the green. Now if you have maxed skills and max run BPCs, unless the gods really dislike you, there shouldn't be a problem succeeding 3 or 4 times per set of 10 attempts. So you are looking at 1.4 billion in profits for 3 successes, 2.5 billion for 4 successes or heaven forbid 3.6 billion for five successes. I guess you could be valuing your tech2 components at Jita price sell orders. Though anybody in the ship building business should be making their own components, in my opinion at least. PS: I am apparently in ur markets making them crash? Remove the invention from the process. Use the cost of BPC's on the market. This eliminates having to calculate invention luck. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

Tauralathan NayTech Inc	Posted - 2007.12.17 03:47:00 - [41] Originally by: Devian 666 What would the cost of it be including the opportunity cost of not selling the t2 components on the market? Assuming you weren't being sarcastic, its a good question and I personally do not have the data. Riddic said in another thread that Golems were approaching the point at which they could be refined for profit. While I have no basis for comparison materials wise, they are only 50 million or so below the Kronos. So one can assume the profits from selling the t2 components would be around 150 million. One thing not considered above is the fact that the components market is moderately inflated right now, as seen by the estimated 150 million gain from selling straight. In the end I'd say it comes down to personal preference right now. I like the fact that I am only competing with a hand full of sellers in the Kronos market, instead of dozens on the component side. Allowing me to focus on other things rather than checking up on my order all of the time.
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.17 05:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Tauralathan I'm curious as to what numbers you are using to get 0% profit or even losses at 800 million per Kronos? 1) Check contracts and behold some marauders that are about to sell (or have already been sold) on auctions for about 650-750m. 2) T2 components prices make it just as viable to sell them without building the marauder itself, so it's "~0 profit" above the level of T2 components. (at ME - 3, T2 comps would sell for 550m, add 85m for mega and 150 for BPC run, and you get 785m)
ishkabibble Black Avatar	Posted - 2007.12.17 06:35:00 - [43] Marauders are far from cost effective options for mission runners Marauders are new ships the community needs to figure out how they fly Their will never be a market for marauders because you can buy a faction ship at a lower price and less skill intensive All you marauders T2 BS inventors and builders should stop crying that you lost isk, next time do your homework. Just because you know how to invent and build doesnt mean you know how to sell. Marketing is a concept most of EvE has yet to understand ----------------------------------------- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity - anonymous
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.17 08:38:00 - [44] Hehe. That price went down faster than I expected indeed. Too bad I have my own Golem cooking (for looting ofcource if I can be arsed to do that, as CNR is still faster in missions) as it would have been a lot less hassle for me to just buy it off market with that price. Only thing suprising for me was the speed of price drop tho, not the end price itself as 'new tech 2 battleships' have been somewhat overhyped recently so everyone and his dog went for them. Anyway. With that price it might even be worth for getting one as long term investment for looting those few missions that are worth looting (for those who are not building their own). Granted payback time might be a bit above reasonable, but risk of losing one is also quite negliable if you are just using it for looting.
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.17 08:58:00 - [45] Originally by: ishkabibble Marauders are far from cost effective options for mission runners Marauders are new ships the community needs to figure out how they fly Their will never be a market for marauders because you can buy a faction ship at a lower price and less skill intensive All you marauders T2 BS inventors and builders should stop crying that you lost isk, next time do your homework. Just because you know how to invent and build doesnt mean you know how to sell. Marketing is a concept most of EvE has yet to understand What part of "I sell and make high profits" is hard to understand ? Have you even bothered to read the thread before posting ? It's not about no-demand (demand is there ok, even if you don't want to believe it), it's about producers that crash their own market for momentary gains.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.17 09:17:00 - [46] Hello, Banana the Marauder pilot here. And like most Marauder pilots I have skills oozing out of arse. If you think you were going to price gouge me when I only had to train Battleship Construction IV before I could build my own ship then you are living in a dream world. So now I have my nice Kronos, what am I going to do with the other 3 runs that my BPC had? The people that know me well tell me to keep them cause my poor Kronos has quite a small life expectancy. But instead I built them and even with a selling price of 800 million I am not out of pocket. Just cause your goal in this game is to have the biggest, fattest wallet does not mean that is everyone else's goal too.
Aslord	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:01:00 - [47] well that the nature business, sometime you have to gamble. t2 battleship inventor/producer lose this round and the t2 components suppliers win big. now the only logical thing the inventor should do is cut their loses and sell quickly. however, demand for t2 battleship might go up (people dont have the skill yet and people stop producing t2 batleship), so you might be better off holding for while (another gamble). but, the price of t2 components will likely drop. only time will tell where supply meet demand. good on your gamble.
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:06:00 - [48] The prices fell quickly because the wannabe t2 producers didn't have the stomach to wait and wanted to build for 500mil and sell at 2bil.
Noveron Caldari Long Live Me	Posted - 2007.12.17 11:42:00 - [49] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 16/12/2007 15:02:59 Originally by: Noveron dont warn them pal, we, the buyers are happy. Yeah, but if you invested all kinds of money into invention only to lose money hand over fist, you wouldn't be happy that you wasted your time. The problem with invention is there is no real risk, players can't go pew pew invention assets. It's like Hello Kitty Online. If invention was low-sec POS only, T2 items would be cheaper than they were before invention (good), and only players who worked as a team would be able to invent, not these solo station hugger players who don't even undock from Jita 4-4 and whine on the forum omg jita laggy ccp fix jita!!!! You need to have at least SOME smarts to run a low sec POS, the inventards would not have these smarts and therefore wouldnt exist, and any other inventards that come to low sec would promptly get blown out of the sky. Why do you think moon minerals are profitable? Understood. Although I think there must be some room in the game for solo players, specially because after beeing 3 years in a corp, I decided to try solo for a while (although I dont invent). On the moon minerals, profitable? Id say most arent profitable enough to run the pos that extracts them. Profitable when used to manufacture reactions.. thats another thing. ---
pershphanie Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:00:00 - [50] I havent seen any of them selling under build cost. They seem to be going about 800-1b. If it's costing you that much to build them then you're not doing it right. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])

Corporati Capitalis Tollan Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Tauralathan I guess you could be valuing your tech2 components at Jita price sell orders. That's the only right way to do it, unless you are a fool. As for ship builders building their own components - check how many components can you build with one char with advanced mass production 4 per month, then check how many battleships you can build with said components per month. If you are building your own components and still have enough to cover your ship building needs, then you are a tiny, insignificant builder, or have an army of alts the size of a small alliance. Using yesterday's Jita prices, it costs about 900! million to invent and build a Kronos, using Stolen Formulas. With the best decryptor it still costs some 800m so if you think you are making a profit at 700m sell price or whatnot, you are deluding yourself.
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:41:00 - [52] In past years when new ships and stuff came out prices were high due to limited amount (T2 BPOs). Now everyone can just invent them, and supply has therefore risen by a lot. Everyone came on these forums and bought the "I'll sell my first few Marauders at XYZ billion profit" and therefore started inventing them. We're now at a point where supply is bigger than demand. A lot of people are still figuring out if it's worth training for the new ships, or are still training the necessary skills. Demand will pick up, and prices might even rise a bit. However, the fact that so many ppl are into invention now means that prices adjust A LOT quicker than before. The bottlekneck of it all is the amount of T2 comps _______________
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:03:00 - [53] Originally by: Vadimik It's not about no-demand (demand is there ok, even if you don't want to believe it), it's about producers that crash their own market for momentary gains. It seems to be more about you whining that you can't compete with other people at the prices they are willing to charge. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Vadimik It's not about no-demand (demand is there ok, even if you don't want to believe it), it's about producers that crash their own market for momentary gains. It seems to be more about you whining that you can't compete with other people at the prices they are willing to charge. Since facts failed to persuade you in the opposite, I can only humbly hope that your delusions are harmless for the rest of us.
Feirik	Posted - 2007.12.17 20:35:00 - [55] Bottomline is that these ships arent especially good, so if someone carteled the market, the demand would just dissapear completly due to faction ships being cheaper. These arent vagabonds, they will be used for missions (of which demand might keep stable, but faces competition from faction BS even as ppl train skills for em). The other potential buyers are those who use them for pvp, this is a better market group, as they loose more ships and buy new ones, but the competition vs faction BSes will again be very hard if price raises over 1b. Why all this drama over obviously not that good ships?
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.17 20:47:00 - [56] Originally by: Feirik Why all this drama over obviously not that good ships? To the best of my knowlege, T2 BS have been seen as the holy grail of pwnage and proffit making since T2 was introduced - hence a huge dissapointment for the vets and overconfidence from newer producers hearing all the nostalgia of predictions of how godly T2 BS would be. Just my opinion, could be wrong. ~Nyron
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.17 21:54:00 - [57] Originally by: Corporati Capitalis Originally by: Tauralathan I guess you could be valuing your tech2 components at Jita price sell orders. That's the only right way to do it, unless you are a fool. As for ship builders building their own components - check how many components can you build with one char with advanced mass production 4 per month, then check how many battleships you can build with said components per month. If you are building your own components and still have enough to cover your ship building needs, then you are a tiny, insignificant builder, or have an army of alts the size of a small alliance. Using yesterday's Jita prices, it costs about 900! million to invent and build a Kronos, using Stolen Formulas. With the best decryptor it still costs some 800m so if you think you are making a profit at 700m sell price or whatnot, you are deluding yourself. This is what my question above was pushing for. Why build the t2 bs if you would be better off concentrating your effort in the profitable part of the business. Someone should run business training courses in eve teaching management science and operations research. Originally by: Darcuese I wouldnt care about Goons tbh. Im more concern about ppl stupidity generally. I need more sig
Sicil Fioet Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.17 23:54:00 - [58] Originally by: Tauralathan I'm curious as to what numbers you are using to get 0% profit or even losses at 800 million per Kronos? Using Jita numbers, as of yesterday, I come up with 506,935,540 building cost per Kronos at ME -5. Assuming a Megathron hull is around 80 million, you're still picking up 200 million per unit in profit. Datacores*320 for 10 attempts is 480 million, best chance decryptors running you 130 million each (not really sure, haven't bought any as I stockpiled a lot prior to the patch) and you are only needing to sell 9 units before you are in the green. How can this be? I just calculated ME -5 build cost for a Golem using Forge lowest prices on components and got 900 mil (i'm assuming Kronos would be about same price) plus bpcs are selling at 50 mil per run. If people selling Golems have stockpiled components from long back ago surely they can make more money just selling building materials on the market now for 900 mil rather than selling them in the form of T2 bs going for 750-800 mil.
3nkil The Chocolate Factory	Posted - 2007.12.18 00:10:00 - [59] Originally by: Sicil Fioet Originally by: Tauralathan I'm curious as to what numbers you are using to get 0% profit or even losses at 800 million per Kronos? Using Jita numbers, as of yesterday, I come up with 506,935,540 building cost per Kronos at ME -5. Assuming a Megathron hull is around 80 million, you're still picking up 200 million per unit in profit. Datacores*320 for 10 attempts is 480 million, best chance decryptors running you 130 million each (not really sure, haven't bought any as I stockpiled a lot prior to the patch) and you are only needing to sell 9 units before you are in the green. How can this be? I just calculated ME -5 build cost for a Golem using Forge lowest prices on components and got 900 mil (i'm assuming Kronos would be about same price) plus bpcs are selling at 50 mil per run. If people selling Golems have stockpiled components from long back ago surely they can make more money just selling building materials on the market now for 900 mil rather than selling them in the form of T2 bs going for 750-800 mil. shhhhhh
Jet Jettix Minmatar The Suicide Kings FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:21:00 - [60] I was actually considering something along the lines of this as a Market Manipulation trick, only yesterday. The most basic rule of markets and trade is: Supply and Demand. When the Supply meets the demand of the market, the price is stable. When the supply is higher than the demand, the price drops. When the Demand is higher than the supply, the price increases. My idea was based on this, just considering minerals. Basically I was thinking, that if you start ammassing minerals in huge quantities (the method is irrellevant, you can have a mining corp mine for a couple of months or just buy huge stocks of it), then seed the minerals in huge quantities to the market, at say 50% the price of what it would cost normally. This would result in other competitors having to undercut their previous price by a lot to sell their stock. You can then buy as much of the available minerals on the market as possible for the money you have earned undercutting everyone. Because supply is larger than demand, supply have to drop to allow people to make profit, but supply is irrelevant as long as you control enough of the available stock on the market and keep selling it cheap. The situation that comes out of this can be called a crash, since several of the players in the market will be turned away from a seemingly unprofitable market environment, and in eve this can happen quickly, meaning you have to sell less of your stock, and sell less of your stock for a potential loss. When you have decieded that enough competitors have been turned away and that you have gained enough of the previously available stocks (sold before the market crash), you stop seeding the market with minerals, and hopefully demand will be bigger than supply, leading to a rise in price, perhaps 200%-300% of the price before the crash. This is when you start selling your left over stock for a profit (the best possible outcome is that you have a larger stocks of minerals than when you started), keeping the price high. The other competitors who stuck it out during the crash will certainly also make a profit, and those who quit during the crash will come back, and slowly bring supply and demand back into balance, but by this time you have hopefully made enough of a profit for this to have been worth it. I imaging that a similiar scheme can be made on the early T2 invention market, especially if people are selling the BPs for 0 return. Anyways, I am not a Trader, only a humble PVPer, without a real knowledge on how the market works.

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:36:00 - [61] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Tauralathan I'm curious as to what numbers you are using to get 0% profit or even losses at 800 million per Kronos? Using Jita numbers, as of yesterday, I come up with 506,935,540 building cost per Kronos at ME -5. Assuming a Megathron hull is around 80 million, you're still picking up 200 million per unit in profit. Datacores*320 for 10 attempts is 480 million, best chance decryptors running you 130 million each (not really sure, haven't bought any as I stockpiled a lot prior to the patch) and you are only needing to sell 9 units before you are in the green. Now if you have maxed skills and max run BPCs, unless the gods really dislike you, there shouldn't be a problem succeeding 3 or 4 times per set of 10 attempts. So you are looking at 1.4 billion in profits for 3 successes, 2.5 billion for 4 successes or heaven forbid 3.6 billion for five successes. I guess you could be valuing your tech2 components at Jita price sell orders. Though anybody in the ship building business should be making their own components, in my opinion at least. PS: I am apparently in ur markets making them crash? Remove the invention from the process. Use the cost of BPC's on the market. This eliminates having to calculate invention luck. 600mil per mauroder cost including invention. There is healthy profit. However, newbie manufacturers are trying to convince the public that it costs over 800mil to make, because they cannot make their 200% margin. Dont fall for it suka! 600mil build cost inc invention. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:59:00 - [62] You can¦t blame people that want to free the Investment with some lose(mayby 10%) and put this cash into new projects. If you keep them it is a risky gamble. What if you can¦t sell it for 6 Month, what if production costs drops or will be reduced by CCP(on the BPCs or Invention needs) to make them more attractive. Also most of the guyes that can buy one and have the skills, allready got a Faction BS with a Faction Fitting ready and there is no mutch point to spend another 1 B into a Ship that will not be so mutch better for its purpose. I would not mind to buy a Paladin(I have to admit I love the paintjob) for my Alt but AWU5 and BS5 will not make it happen. Faction BS are far earlyer avaidable(by Skillpoints) and nearly on par with the the T2 Ships. When the Price hit 500 M i will get myself a Kronus, not to repace my Mission Dominix but to repace my Loot Mega. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Ki Shodan Gallente deep blue	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:13:00 - [63] Originally by: Jet Jettix Basically I was thinking, that if you start ammassing minerals in huge quantities (the method is irrellevant, you can have a mining corp mine for a couple of months or just buy huge stocks of it), then seed the minerals in huge quantities to the market, ... Has been done with several segments off the market in the past and present. Some succeeded, some not. You just have to be careful, that you do not bite of more than you can chew. -- Evemail me, if my name is used as guarantor!
Corporati Capitalis Tollan Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:36:00 - [64] Originally by: Jonny JoJo 600mil per mauroder cost including invention. There is healthy profit. However, newbie manufacturers are trying to convince the public that it costs over 800mil to make, because they cannot make their 200% margin. Dont fall for it suka! 600mil build cost inc invention. Whatever you say, chief. Build cost for Kronos at current Jita prices: With Test Reports decryptor: Crystalline Carbonide Armor Plate: 14.271 * 6.227 = 88.865.517 ISK Fusion Reactor Unit: 84.995 * 2.601 = 221.097.494 ISK Ion Thruster: 24.270 * 1.366 = 33.160.101 ISK Magnetometric Sensor Cluster: 17.650 * 911 = 16.084.445 ISK Oscillator Capacitor Unit: 25.330 * 2.786 = 70.566.847 ISK Photon Microprocessor: 9.494 * 1.226 = 11.638.695 ISK Pulse Shield Emitter: 32.571 * 3.289 = 107.126.019 ISK Megathron: 92.723.000 * 1 = 92.723.000 ISK Total: 641.262.117 ISK And that's the decryptor with lowest possible waste. Add more than 100m for the +4/+9 run decryptors. Let's make it a round 100m although that's an underestimation. 741m for the +4 decryptor as well as 70m per run invention costs and you get 810m per ship when using Stolen Formulas (actually 837m +/- 1% if you calculate everything as it should be). But hey, you keep building your ships for 600m and think you are earning a mint. I'll go actually earn a mint on other activities.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.19 11:49:00 - [65] Originally by: Corporati Capitalis Build cost for Kronos at current Jita prices: With Test Reports decryptor: Crystalline Carbonide Armor Plate: 14.271 * 6.227 = 88.865.517 ISK Fusion Reactor Unit: 84.995 * 2.601 = 221.097.494 ISK Ion Thruster: 24.270 * 1.366 = 33.160.101 ISK Magnetometric Sensor Cluster: 17.650 * 911 = 16.084.445 ISK Oscillator Capacitor Unit: 25.330 * 2.786 = 70.566.847 ISK Photon Microprocessor: 9.494 * 1.226 = 11.638.695 ISK Pulse Shield Emitter: 32.571 * 3.289 = 107.126.019 ISK Megathron: 92.723.000 * 1 = 92.723.000 ISK Total: 641.262.117 ISK I find your figures on the high side. 620m is what it cost to build my Kronos. Thats not a hypothetical figure, I calculated it from the entries in my wallet transaction log. I have taken into account the cost of the BPC and the build costs of the Megathron and the t2 components. The cost of my t2 components was significantly less that the prices you quote. The build cost of the Megathron alone was 20million less than your cost. I am pretty sure a serious builder could get the build costs below 600million. I may try it myself, it would be a nice side task.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.19 15:29:00 - [66] Originally by: Banana Torres I find your figures on the high side. 620m is what it cost to build my Kronos. Thats not a hypothetical figure, I calculated it from the entries in my wallet transaction log. I have taken into account the cost of the BPC and the build costs of the Megathron and the t2 components. The cost of my t2 components was significantly less that the prices you quote. The build cost of the Megathron alone was 20million less than your cost. I am pretty sure a serious builder could get the build costs below 600million. I may try it myself, it would be a nice side task. To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.19 16:19:00 - [67] Originally by: Shadowsword To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant. Well, actually it is the replacement cost of the ingredients that you should take into account. And I have been reducing the price I am paying on most of my buy orders since the patch. So the replacement cost is less than I originally said. But only by a few percent.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.19 18:06:00 - [68] Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Shadowsword To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant. Well, actually it is the replacement cost of the ingredients that you should take into account. And I have been reducing the price I am paying on most of my buy orders since the patch. So the replacement cost is less than I originally said. But only by a few percent. The cost has to be in the sell order prices, not buy order prices. You have to know if it is better to sell the items on the market than it is to build the ship. The only way to know that is to use sell order prices when considering the build cost. Because you're really making most of your profit off the buy orders, not the building, it seems. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.19 18:42:00 - [69] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 19/12/2007 18:43:42 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Shadowsword To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant. Well, actually it is the replacement cost of the ingredients that you should take into account. And I have been reducing the price I am paying on most of my buy orders since the patch. So the replacement cost is less than I originally said. But only by a few percent. The cost has to be in the sell order prices, not buy order prices. You have to know if it is better to sell the items on the market than it is to build the ship. The only way to know that is to use sell order prices when considering the build cost. Because you're really making most of your profit off the buy orders, not the building, it seems. Place competitive buy order. Note the word Competitive. They get filled in a day or two max, and if they dont, then your buy price is too low. Remember what i said about the 180mil Abaddon? Sell orders are always higher. I mean, there are shuttles with sell orders at 1 billion isk. Just place a buy order at a competitive Price or do what I do - buy in bulk from reseller. Thats what most serious builders do, and not newbie builders. If I was to sell on from my reseller, well, thats around a tiny bit extra i can make, since I dont want my money tied up for 90 days waiting on someone buying overpriced goods. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.19 19:28:00 - [70] Edited by: Shadarle on 19/12/2007 19:29:53 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 19/12/2007 18:43:42 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Shadowsword To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant. Well, actually it is the replacement cost of the ingredients that you should take into account. And I have been reducing the price I am paying on most of my buy orders since the patch. So the replacement cost is less than I originally said. But only by a few percent. The cost has to be in the sell order prices, not buy order prices. You have to know if it is better to sell the items on the market than it is to build the ship. The only way to know that is to use sell order prices when considering the build cost. Because you're really making most of your profit off the buy orders, not the building, it seems. Place competitive buy order. Note the word Competitive. They get filled in a day or two max, and if they dont, then your buy price is too low. Remember what i said about the 180mil Abaddon? Sell orders are always higher. I mean, there are shuttles with sell orders at 1 billion isk. Just place a buy order at a competitive Price or do what I do - buy in bulk from reseller. Thats what most serious builders do, and not newbie builders. If I was to sell on from my reseller, well, thats around a tiny bit extra i can make, since I dont want my money tied up for 90 days waiting on someone buying overpriced goods. You clearly do not understand what I was saying. The value of components used to build something are the price you could sell them for on the market if you did not use them to build with. You compare this cost to the sell price of the item you are building. If the item is higher you build, if the item is lower you do not build. If the item is higher then you are making profit in two ways, one from buying minerals under cost (using buy orders) and on from building them item. This is a critical concept to understand. Those who do not are missing out on potential profit. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.19 23:03:00 - [71] Originally by: Shadarle The value of components used to build something are the price you could sell them for on the market if you did not use them to build with. You compare this cost to the sell price of the item you are building. If the item is higher you build, if the item is lower you do not build. If the item is higher then you are making profit in two ways, one from buying minerals under cost (using buy orders) and on from building them item. To be able to make the decision on whether to build or not seems to require the ability to see the future. Sure I could use my mineral stocks to create sell orders that would be more profitable than building a ship. But the act of putting up those sell orders could affect the market in such a way as to make it more profitable to build the ship. Also I have a lot of assets tied up in ship manufacturing. These would be idle as would the POS, which needs fuel even if it not being used. And most importantly the Logistics Director would be in a bad mood cause she likes building ships. Its a bit like telling Intel to sell thier stock of gold cause the price of gold has gone up. It may make them money in the short term, but it could seriously affect their ability to make money as a chip maker if they played the metals market wrong.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.20 00:22:00 - [72] building isnt instant if prices got more expensive for the parts in that time there is little you can do after using the bpc Trashed sig, Shark was here
Corporati Capitalis Tollan Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.20 21:56:00 - [73] Originally by: SiJira building isnt instant if prices got more expensive for the parts in that time there is little you can do after using the bpc And that's why builders who are aware of the current market and gameplay conditions clearly have an advantage.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.21 00:34:00 - [74] Originally by: Banana Torres Its a bit like telling Intel to sell thier stock of gold cause the price of gold has gone up. It may make them money in the short term, but it could seriously affect their ability to make money as a chip maker if they played the metals market wrong. This is an insane line of reasoning. The reason it would hurt Intel is because they are a well known brand that has to maintain their image. They are competing against a single entity. Customer loyalty is a large factor in this market. If Intel stopped producing for a few months they could lose a lot of customers to AMD that they may not get back for a few cycles. Worse they could lose massive suppliers and dealers. None of this really applies to EVE. You could continue buying from suppliers and selling the minerals if that is more profitable. There are no dealers in EVE, at least not like Dell/Gateway/Acer/HP/etc so that is out as well. No one has a brand name in EVE, everything is just on the market. The only possible reason to keep building is if you are supplying a corp with your particular item and have a long term contract with them, that is the ONLY reason to build for less than the components sell for individually. Originally by: Banana Torres To be able to make the decision on whether to build or not seems to require the ability to see the future. Sure I could use my mineral stocks to create sell orders that would be more profitable than building a ship. But the act of putting up those sell orders could affect the market in such a way as to make it more profitable to build the ship. I promise you that if you were to sell every mineral you got it would not impact the mineral market in any noticeable way. Originally by: Banana Torres Also I have a lot of assets tied up in ship manufacturing. These would be idle as would the POS, which needs fuel even if it not being used. And most importantly the Logistics Director would be in a bad mood cause she likes building ships. This only gives more reason not to build. If you are making less building PLUS you have assets tied up in that production then it's even more of a money sink. Owning a BPO is costing you money. How? You could sell the BPO and reinvest that money in other ways to earn at LEAST 5% a month if not closer to 10-50% depending how rich/poor you are. If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals. But hey, if you want to continue building a ship that sells for 750 million with components that sell for 800 million then go for it! But don't get mad when I call you foolish or lacking common sense. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.21 01:40:00 - [75] Originally by: Shadarle If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals. 1-4 million a day. Wow, you can earn that, gosh. Amazing. I'm sorry mate, we are obviously operating in different leagues. This is now very off topic, so I am gonna shup up now.
Hersheff	Posted - 2007.12.21 01:55:00 - [76] Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Shadarle If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals. 1-4 million a day. Wow, you can earn that, gosh. Amazing. I'm sorry mate, we are obviously operating in different leagues. This is now very off topic, so I am gonna shup up now. you obviously didn't understand what he meant.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.21 04:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Hersheff Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Shadarle If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals. 1-4 million a day. Wow, you can earn that, gosh. Amazing. I'm sorry mate, we are obviously operating in different leagues. This is now very off topic, so I am gonna shup up now. you obviously didn't understand what he meant. Indeed. He is losing money on every produced item + he is losing money every day on owning a BPO by not using the value of that BPO effectively. It's a double whammy to produce with a BPO that is losing you money. And as to the operating in a different league, I agree, we most definitely are. Unfortunately for you I think you mistake which one of us is in the majors and which of us is in little league. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Vele Nori Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.21 07:31:00 - [78] i like the low tech II battleship prices please don't try to make the producers any smarter or the prices are gonna go up
JdJinator Gallente PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.21 12:15:00 - [79] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Hersheff Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Shadarle If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals. 1-4 million a day. Wow, you can earn that, gosh. Amazing. I'm sorry mate, we are obviously operating in different leagues. This is now very off topic, so I am gonna shup up now. you obviously didn't understand what he meant. Indeed. He is losing money on every produced item + he is losing money every day on owning a BPO by not using the value of that BPO effectively. It's a double whammy to produce with a BPO that is losing you money. And as to the operating in a different league, I agree, we most definitely are. Unfortunately for you I think you mistake which one of us is in the majors and which of us is in little league. Your major, so when are you stopping bugging my business?? :P lol
Lady Beauvoir Slutty Witches	Posted - 2007.12.21 16:47:00 - [80] Edited by: Lady Beauvoir on 21/12/2007 16:47:26 Shadarle, for a long while I thought you were mostly trolling. But this topic has convinced me that I was wrong. This thread has way too many manufacturers with very little common (or business) sense on how to make most profit from their stock. I'll try to condence the thing Shadarle is saying into something extremely simple: 1) You have Things. From Things you build Stuff. If the price at which people are selling Things needed to build Stuff is greater than the price Stuff is sold at, you sell Things. Otherwise you produce and sell Stuff. It's insignificant how much you paid for them yourself: their value is what people sell them for. 2) You need Tools to build Stuff from Things. Tools cost ISK. You use ISK to generate more ISK. Therefore, the ISK invested in Tools must help you earn more ISK than selling the tools and using the ISK in some other venture. RL comparison: you can buy either stocks Y or Z. Y offers 3% return on investment, Z offers 5% return. Naturally you buy Z. Use the same reasoning to your Tools. 3) In the 3rd quarter of 2007 the total value of daily market transactions was 2.1 trillion ISK (according to Q3 economic newsletter). Your market activity will not have any noticeable effect on the market (unless you intentionally try to cause the market to fluctuate on one or two particular items). "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaet point." -Blaise Pascal, PensTes, 4, 277

Shadarle	Posted - 2007.12.21 17:42:00 - [81] Originally by: Lady Beauvoir Shadarle, for a long while I thought you were mostly trolling. But this topic has convinced me that I was wrong. Shockingly, I didn't get well known on this forum just by being mean to stupid people, though that may well be my latest claim to fame. But I accept that you were wrong, which in turn, makes me right. Something I hear quite a lot Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained


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