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Why can't we declare war on NPC corps?

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Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:40:00 - [1] - Simple as that really... I've got nothing against NPC corps but I think that we should be able to choose to attack them. I know the omgwtf factor for new players may put some off the game, but it also allows a lot to get an early taste of 'fleet' PVP since there are plenty of members I'm sure who'd happily fight with one of the more experienced NPC folk commanding them. If the carnage gets too excessive perhaps have heavy NPC security forces stationed in 0.7 and above, like a slightly weaker CONCORD... I also think it'd be an awesome solution to Macro-ISK-farmer haulers we're seeing all over New Eden. Realistically it shouldn't be financially sound (T1 loot anyone?) for a corp to wardec an NPC corp, but it should be an option IMHO as it allows players to police other players. I'm sure there'd be a fair amount of greifers, but it'd also spawn opportunities for more PRO new player corps like Eve University to flourish and aid these newer PVPers. Your thoughts? - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:42:00 - [2] NPC corps exist so people can hide from PvP. You may as well ask for high-sec to be 100% safe. It's basically the same request in the opposite direction. - DesuSigs
lovin deathmetal	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:44:00 - [3] lol, go declare war on a real corp, its so much more satisfying, plus, it'll prove your not some tard only looking to kill noob players to boast your own week ego
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:45:00 - [4] High Sec isn't 100% safe?!?! And I think anyone who wants to hide from PVP can still do so effectively by being in a 1-man corp. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Darkstarr DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss - Simple as that really... ........... crapola .......... Not even worth my explanation .... You fail ---FAST FACT--- Exxon Mobil, the U.S.'s largest oil firm, reported annual earnings last year of $36.1 Billion, or $1146 a second, a record for any U.S. corp.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:50:00 - [6] Originally by: lovin deathmetal lol, go declare war on a real corp, its so much more satisfying, plus, it'll prove your not some tard only looking to kill noob players to boast your own week ego Thanks for that. It's not about ego. My ego is fairly humongous already. There's no room to grow it having declared war as a solo PVPer sucessfully (9 kills to 0) against an 80 man 'LEG1ON' Alliance. Fought wars vs (now) accomplished mercs REPO Industries, and several others, aswell as living and being a very active PVPer helping CVA's fleets expand their Amarrian influence. But thanks for your comments! - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
DaHarMasterKor Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:51:00 - [7] Because not everyone plays this game to get into player vs player combat. Some people like EVE's market, science, production, and mining aspects and they should not be forced to play the way they don't like playing. If you force them, they'll leave the game and CCP loses in subscriptions. As for macros there are plenty of other ways to fight against them that don't require war decs. When I started playing a lot of them were mining in empire. Now many of them have moved to low sec and 0.0 space where war decs are useless.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Darkstarr Originally by: Vyktor Abyss - Simple as that really... ........... crapola .......... Not even worth my explanation .... You fail Another reason to love the Goons - thanks for that intelligent discussion. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:52:00 - [9] Originally by: DaHarMasterKor Because not everyone plays this game to get into player vs player combat. Some people like EVE's market, science, production, and mining aspects and they should not be forced to play the way they don't like playing. If you force them, they'll leave the game and CCP loses in subscriptions. As for macros there are plenty of other ways to fight against them that don't require war decs. When I started playing a lot of them were mining in empire. Now many of them have moved to low sec and 0.0 space where war decs are useless. Avoiding PVP is easy enough for everyone. Start a 1 man corp and see how many wardecs you get. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Syraine	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:53:00 - [10] I think its a terrible idea. Some noobs have a hard enough time learning how to play the game without a corp full of greifers trying to blow them up for fun and sport. It's nice to say there are benefits for it, but there really are not. If NPC corp members want "a taste of real PvP" then they can venture into 0.4 space. Let the noobs and those not interested in all out PvP be -relatively- safe in high sec.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Originally by: lovin deathmetal lol, go declare war on a real corp, its so much more satisfying, plus, it'll prove your not some tard only looking to kill noob players to boast your own week ego Thanks for that. It's not about ego. My ego is fairly humongous already. There's no room to grow it having declared war as a solo PVPer sucessfully (9 kills to 0) against an 80 man 'LEG1ON' Alliance. Fought wars vs (now) accomplished mercs REPO Industries, and several others, aswell as living and being a very active PVPer helping CVA's fleets expand their Amarrian influence. But thanks for your comments! ready for the RP reason? the ammar fleet sends 4 titans to eacg of your poses with 14 dreads. also instead of conchord which in place to protect peace with the empires, you have to deal with a spawn 8 times greater because you just declared war on the mility school of the cadari republic. good jorb. so tyhe answer is, maybe with factional warfare... ******* EON said that would be out with trinity... or right after... maybe CCP will sur[prize us? not with the current issues :( with the current issues factional warfare won't hapen for a long time... oh and by the way, factional warfare is apparently only going to be low/lower sec only, so it will be the same anyways, not everyone wants PvP. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Dynamite Dan	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:58:00 - [12] Originally by: Darkstarr Originally by: Vyktor Abyss - Simple as that really... ........... crapola .......... s t u f f .... You fail If you'd pay attention you would see that Macro'ers don't bother hiding in NPC Corps these days. Many are part of deep 0.0 Alliances and pay others in the alliance to protect the Macro opperations.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Syraine I think its a terrible idea. Some noobs have a hard enough time learning how to play the game without a corp full of greifers trying to blow them up for fun and sport. It's nice to say there are benefits for it, but there really are not. If NPC corp members want "a taste of real PvP" then they can venture into 0.4 space. Let the noobs and those not interested in all out PvP be -relatively- safe in high sec. True enough I suppose. My angle personally is I'd like to help out these 'genuine' NPC newer players against the 'greifers'. But I guess you're right - they have a hard enough time learning to do the basic things. best comment so far - tx. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
DaHarMasterKor Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Originally by: DaHarMasterKor Because not everyone plays this game to get into player vs player combat. Some people like EVE's market, science, production, and mining aspects and they should not be forced to play the way they don't like playing. If you force them, they'll leave the game and CCP loses in subscriptions. As for macros there are plenty of other ways to fight against them that don't require war decs. When I started playing a lot of them were mining in empire. Now many of them have moved to low sec and 0.0 space where war decs are useless. Avoiding PVP is easy enough for everyone. Start a 1 man corp and see how many wardecs you get. If someone is bent on fighting you this means you'd have no escape. Right now you can retreat to NPC corps. If the game goes as you propose this means you'll be able to war dec players indefinitely - just war dec any 1-man corp they form. Besides corporations are about talking to other people and playing together. When I was a noob I got a lot of help from the vets in my NPC corp, more than from the rookie channel. If you place all people in 1-man corps not only would you be able to harass players indefinitely with war decs until they quit, but also for new and casual players you're gonna ruin their gaming experience.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:05:00 - [15] Originally by: MotherMoon ready for the RP reason? so tyhe answer is, maybe with factional warfare... ******* EON said that would be out with trinity... or right after... maybe CCP will sur[prize us? not with the current issues :( with the current issues factional warfare won't hapen for a long time... oh and by the way, factional warfare is apparently only going to be low/lower sec only, so it will be the same anyways, not everyone wants PvP. Yeah factional warfare has a LOT of these sorts of possibilities I suppose to bridge the gap between PVPers and non-PVPers, but like you eloquently put - who knows when that will arrive. I'd personally love to be able to attack ANY NPC corp rather than have to face a faction... I mean that Caldari Gaming Commission's fleet have got it coming! :p Cheers for your comment and the bit on our POS's - can't wait for those Titan's to show up, I'm pro-amarrian by helping CVA after all! - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Bubble Hash	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Syraine I think its a terrible idea. Some noobs have a hard enough time learning how to play the game without a corp full of greifers trying to blow them up for fun and sport. Quote: QFT Not to mention there are many others in the same shoes I wear. My dial-up connection is so poor I cannot PvP most of the time. This doesn't mean I cannot PvE and enjoy the other fantastic parts of Eve-O. NPC Corps allow me to enjoy the game without the lag unwanted PvP encounters cause.
Ed Anger Weekly World News Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss - Simple as that really... I've got nothing against NPC corps but I think that we should be able to choose to attack them. I know the omgwtf factor for new players may put some off the game, but it also allows a lot to get an early taste of 'fleet' PVP since there are plenty of members I'm sure who'd happily fight with one of the more experienced NPC folk commanding them. If the carnage gets too excessive perhaps have heavy NPC security forces stationed in 0.7 and above, like a slightly weaker CONCORD... I also think it'd be an awesome solution to Macro-ISK-farmer haulers we're seeing all over New Eden. Realistically it shouldn't be financially sound (T1 loot anyone?) for a corp to wardec an NPC corp, but it should be an option IMHO as it allows players to police other players. I'm sure there'd be a fair amount of greifers, but it'd also spawn opportunities for more PRO new player corps like Eve University to flourish and aid these newer PVPers. Your thoughts?
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:13:00 - [18] Originally by: DaHarMasterKor If someone is bent on fighting you this means you'd have no escape. Right now you can retreat to NPC corps. If the game goes as you propose this means you'll be able to war dec players indefinitely - just war dec any 1-man corp they form. Besides corporations are about talking to other people and playing together. When I was a noob I got a lot of help from the vets in my NPC corp, more than from the rookie channel. If you place all people in 1-man corps not only would you be able to harass players indefinitely with war decs until they quit, but also for new and casual players you're gonna ruin their gaming experience. You're spot on with that - PVP is avoidable and greifing 'could' occur with 1000 man alliances continually wardec'ing someone switching 1 man corps indefinately. The thing is that it doesn't make much sense for them to keep doing that unless they have a very valid reason (billions $ ISK corp thief etc...) and eventuly they will be hit with a petition anyway for harrassment. The game experience part is true - it changes it for new players. The NPC corp channels would have to be supported by better new player channels for the social side, but imangine the potential fun and social aspect of joining 80 frigates to strike back at those 'greifers'. Heck - Goonswarm have made the largest alliance in game out of that. Changed? yes.. Changed for the worse? I'm not convinced yet. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Ed Anger This. >>> TRIBUTE TO A FALLEN WINGMAN <<<
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Bubble Hash Edited by: Bubble Hash on 17/12/2007 02:09:27 Originally by: Syraine I think its a terrible idea. Some noobs have a hard enough time learning how to play the game without a corp full of greifers trying to blow them up for fun and sport. QFT Not to mention there are many others in the same shoes I wear. My dial-up connection is so poor I cannot PvP most of the time. This doesn't mean I cannot PvE and enjoy the other fantastic parts of Eve-O. NPC Corps allow me to enjoy the game without the lag unwanted PvP encounters cause. Fair comment. Something I've not considered - Would being crammed into 0.7 to 1.0 as by having an NPC type of CONCORD allowing you to effectively safely run missions as originally suggested ruin the PVE element for you? - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Naomi Venture	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:20:00 - [21] Edited by: Naomi Venture on 17/12/2007 02:23:10 Originally by: DaHarMasterKor If someone is bent on fighting you this means you'd have no escape. Right now you can retreat to NPC corps. If the game goes as you propose this means you'll be able to war dec players indefinitely - just war dec any 1-man corp they form. Besides corporations are about talking to other people and playing together. When I was a noob I got a lot of help from the vets in my NPC corp, more than from the rookie channel. If you place all people in 1-man corps not only would you be able to harass players indefinitely with war decs until they quit, but also for new and casual players you're gonna ruin their gaming experience. That.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:29:00 - [22] Hehe - I'm sensing this is a good time to backtrack and withdraw on this idea thanks to zero support for the idea. Well, if you don't use 'General discussion' for general discussion (I hope there's a FC with that name) then you're really not getting your moneys worth... lol Cheers for the feedback. I'll accept this is a bad idea. Hehe... - I'll add the caviat: At this present time!! - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:31:00 - [23] Well, if you can wardec npc corps, then I suggest something like, if you wardec the Federal Naval Academy, the full weight of the Federal Navy is brought against you. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:34:00 - [24] there are people who want nothing else than to ruin other peoples fun. those people will quickly set up camp outside a popular noob station and shoot at anything that exits. It would cost CCP tons of money because the new people would not play past the first 2 hours. So i doubt it'll ever happen, simply because it will lose a ton of money on it.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:36:00 - [25] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Originally by: MotherMoon ready for the RP reason? so tyhe answer is, maybe with factional warfare... ******* EON said that would be out with trinity... or right after... maybe CCP will sur[prize us? not with the current issues :( with the current issues factional warfare won't hapen for a long time... oh and by the way, factional warfare is apparently only going to be low/lower sec only, so it will be the same anyways, not everyone wants PvP. Yeah factional warfare has a LOT of these sorts of possibilities I suppose to bridge the gap between PVPers and non-PVPers, but like you eloquently put - who knows when that will arrive. I'd personally love to be able to attack ANY NPC corp rather than have to face a faction... I mean that Caldari Gaming Commission's fleet have got it coming! :p Cheers for your comment and the bit on our POS's - can't wait for those Titan's to show up, I'm pro-amarrian by helping CVA after all! no worries just fit em resistance on your POS :P titans suck Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:44:00 - [26] Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 17/12/2007 02:45:15 Originally by: Crumplecorn NPC corps exist so people can hide from PvP. You may as well ask for high-sec to be 100% safe. It's basically the same request in the opposite direction. QFT without reading any other post in this thread.. Without carebear NPC industrial corps and mission runners with the odd 0.0 ratter you would find the T2 and Faction mod/ammo market to be intolerably exspensive.. Does it really need to be spelled out any clearer? Gallente the New Pink« Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Taedrin Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I know the omgwtf factor for new players may put some off the game You just answered your own question. CCP may love the cutthroat environment of EVE, but one thing that they do NOT tolerate is griefing new players (in starting systems). New players NEED a safe environment where they can get a handle on the game. Allowing players to wardec NPC corps would effectively allow anyone to grief newbies without repercussions. If this were in place when any of us had started EVE, I'm pretty certain that none of us would still be here.
Princess Xenia	Posted - 2007.12.17 03:13:00 - [28] Sure.. y not??? War dec a npc corp = war dec the alliance to which it belongs = war dec the empire = sentry turrets firing at u in the empire.... Sure... no protection outside empire's domain though...
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2007.12.17 04:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Princess Xenia Sure.. y not??? War dec a npc corp = war dec the alliance to which it belongs = war dec the empire = sentry turrets firing at u in the empire.... Sure... no protection outside empire's domain though... Yeah this post sums it up nicely and to expand on this to be able to attack an npc corp would make the space controlled by that empire almost assuredly 100% safe as all stations would attack any incoming aggressing group and most stargates guarded by faction ships would be a 23/7 gate camp waiting.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Union Enterprises	Posted - 2007.12.17 06:07:00 - [30] I just want to war-dec Concord.... the bastages. -- Talking in Circles is more dizzying than walking in them... Tralala
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.17 07:41:00 - [31] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/12/2007 07:48:34 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss High Sec isn't 100% safe?!?! And I think anyone who wants to hide from PVP can still do so effectively by being in a 1-man corp. Wrong on both count. Learn how EVE work. Just to point it up, with several thousand corporations in EVE all the NPC corporation would be wardeccedd 23/7 by several corps and alliances.
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2007.12.17 08:59:00 - [32] Wouldn't work anyways. As soon as you patched in wardeccing NPC corps, it would take about 10 seconds before Perkone, RMS, Aliastra, The Scope, etc all had so many wardecs that the cost of dropping anymore would ultra-super-prohibitively expensive. And hey, who's going to pay the wardecs for the NPC's? If I'm paying 5 billion ISK a week to wardec Aliastra, they better be paying their fair share too!!
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.12.17 09:02:00 - [33] Think of the alternative; do you really want a corp with 5000+ people in it with the right to kill you anywhere, at anytime? I think the whole "hunting noobs" thrill will die real quick when the people who know what they are doing, and in the noob corp, band together in blobs that would make many a FPS weep openly.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:39:00 - [34] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/12/2007 07:48:34 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss High Sec isn't 100% safe?!?! And I think anyone who wants to hide from PVP can still do so effectively by being in a 1-man corp. Wrong on both count. Learn how EVE work. Just to point it up, with several thousand corporations in EVE all the NPC corporation would be wardeccedd 23/7 by several corps and alliances. You sir are a muppet and have not understood that quote. It was sarcasm. I know very well about suicide ganking in high sec meaning nowhere is 100% safe. "Learn how EVE work" ?!? Thats just plain insulting since I've been playing for over 2 years ans know very well how eve works. With several thousand corps in Eve you really think they will all wardec the NPCs given the additional costs of wardeccing a corp already at war?!? The point is it would not financially sound to do so, hence those corps that do it consistently to 'grief' people wont last long as they will be losing more ISK than they could hope to make from civvy blasters etc... Anyway - If you had bothered to read the whole thread I've already stated it probably is a bad idea, but I was putting it up there for discussion, not for muppets like you to hurl insults. Learn some respect. Anyway, the poster above has some valid supportive points too - LOOK AT THE BLOODY SIZE OF THOSE NPC CORPS! In time those NPC corps would even get their massive dedicated PVP wing of 'protectors'. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.17 14:10:00 - [35] If NCP corps were war decked how would filthy piwats use NPC hauler alts to get their new toys into low sec? "Least I got chicken." - Leroy Jenkins
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.17 14:23:00 - [36] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/12/2007 07:48:34 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss High Sec isn't 100% safe?!?! And I think anyone who wants to hide from PVP can still do so effectively by being in a 1-man corp. Wrong on both count. Learn how EVE work. Just to point it up, with several thousand corporations in EVE all the NPC corporation would be wardeccedd 23/7 by several corps and alliances. You sir are a muppet and have not understood that quote. It was sarcasm. I know very well about suicide ganking in high sec meaning nowhere is 100% safe. "Learn how EVE work" ?!? Thats just plain insulting since I've been playing for over 2 years ans know very well how eve works. With several thousand corps in Eve you really think they will all wardec the NPCs given the additional costs of wardeccing a corp already at war?!? The point is it would not financially sound to do so, hence those corps that do it consistently to 'grief' people wont last long as they will be losing more ISK than they could hope to make from civvy blasters etc... Anyway - If you had bothered to read the whole thread I've already stated it probably is a bad idea, but I was putting it up there for discussion, not for muppets like you to hurl insults. Learn some respect. Anyway, the poster above has some valid supportive points too - LOOK AT THE BLOODY SIZE OF THOSE NPC CORPS! In time those NPC corps would even get their massive dedicated PVP wing of 'protectors'. Have you ever looked the Withe Wolf corp? It had about 10 or more war dec as soon as it was renamed. As you know EVE, you really think that a corporation with several hundred easy target and practically no capacity to strike back would have less than 10 wars going constantly? If you think so we are playing in two different servers. The same for what seem a serious suggestion on your part "And I think anyone who wants to hide from PVP can still do so effectively by being in a 1-man corp." People hunt for easy targets, scanning people at the gates. If "hiding" in 1 man corp become the norm, the same people will wardec those corporations, follow the actions of the target and then petition the player if he found a new corporation and change it, as 100% of the old corporation has jumped corp to avoid a war. They will get the GM to put the player back in his old corp or ban him, as he will be using a explicit exploit, leaving a corporation and reforming the exact same corporation under another name to avoid a war. In your 2 years of EVE you seem to have learned less on how people play in high sec of what I have learned in my 20 months.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.17 14:26:00 - [37] The problem, as I see it, is that there should be a difference between starter corps and NPC corps. A stater corp should be as NPC corps are now, but with restrictions on some of the activities you can perform, or skills you can train. Moving on from there you could either join a player corp, or a "true" NPC corp. Those NPC corps would be subject to war decs, but with consequences. Costs should be high both financially and in factional standings. Just declaring war should drop your standings (and each weekly renewal), and each aggressive act against a member of that corp should also result in small standings changes. A prolonged war may lead to that corps stations firing upon you, or even that faction's navy engaging you. Why should we do this? Well, because Eve is a PvP game at heart. Now, I fully understand that some people don't want to partake in that, but NPC corps currently have a rather unbalancing drawback to those who do. It is possible (and common) for PvP entities to shroud their weaker industrial and logistics activities by using characters in NPC corps. It is an abuse (but quite legitimate) of the current game mechanics, which allows people a level of protection which really they are not entitled to. Whilst new style NPC corps would still offer some protection over a normal player corp, it would be possible for a determined force to prosecute a war against them. The arguement that people would target these corps just because of the high number of "easy targets" is maybe a little misleading. Starter corps are highly populated, but I would postulate that a large proportion of that memberbase are people who are there for continued security, rather than people learning the ropes. The later do need a high level of protection, but the former really do not. They should be "encouraged" to move on if they wish to fully develop their characters and avoid the limitations which should be imposed on such players, but limitations which would not really be noticed by genuine starter characters. tl;dr: Starter corps should be as now; but with limitation (Like trial account limitation) New NPC corps with no restiction: war dec'able, but with penalties. Player corps unchanged. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Nur Vadenn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.17 16:16:00 - [38] In short no for reasons already sighted. To elaborate. To start with the NPC corporations are only corporations in that they have a name, a corporation channel, and corporation ticker. There is no organization, no shared facilities, no command structure, and no filters/requirement for entry. This means in a wartime situation the NPC corporations would already have a major set of handicaps against them. In my experience NPC corporations are composed of casual players, loaners, people in between corporations, and people looking for something new. In the starter corporations there is of course the vast sea or completely new members to the game as well. To think that this demographic would be anything other than cannon fodder is kinda silly. Once you take into account the odds already stacked against them you have to consider that any group of people in a NPC corporation willing to PvP and organize in groups has what it takes to be a corporation themselves and deal with all the drawbacks inherent in player corporations. Such a group could also benefit from the various facilities provided to player corporations. So the question would be why are they in an NPC corporation? I don't think it very likely that such subgroups exist within NPC corporations. As for changes to the current system, Avon has perhaps the most reasonable post regarding this. I disagree regarding why NPC corporations would be targeted. The fact that they would be full of easy targets that could be targeted individually would be a prime reason to declare war on them. Even groups looking to get at hidden assets of a player corporation enemy would look at these easy targets as a secondary bonus. I also think that those who reside in NPC corporations, but may not need the continued security they provide should be encouraged to leave them with significant advantages provided in player corporations, not major sanctions being imposed on NPC corporations. From personal experience player corporations have more drawbacks than benefits. Corporation tax, internal politics, drama, war declarations, faulty management, indentured servitude, and external politics are all things that count against player organizations in my opinion. Basically I as a NPC corporation member should have a keen desire to want to join a player corporation because they are better, not because I can't do anything in a NPC corporation.
Ryuga VonRhaiden Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.12.17 16:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss High Sec isn't 100% safe?!?! Get yourself a freighter. Get it filled with all kind of T2 goodies. Plan any 10-15 jumps route through whatever high space you want. Click on "autopilot" and get amazed by explosions ;) Do not try and find the signature... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no signature.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.12.17 16:54:00 - [40] todays 25th poor suggestion, to the OP: you could just cut and paste from the last 234234 threads about this and the answer would still be the same, no.
Chip2k3 Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.17 16:58:00 - [41] coz otherwise there would be no-where for the chinese isk farmers, aka KOS/TRI/BOB/EVERYONE to hide, silly MEMBER OF TEAM TURBOÖ
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:14:00 - [42] Originally by: Nur Vadenn To elaborate. To start with the NPC corporations are only corporations in that they have a name, a corporation channel, and corporation ticker. There is no organization, no shared facilities, no command structure, and no filters/requirement for entry. This means in a wartime situation the NPC corporations would already have a major set of handicaps against them. In my experience NPC corporations are composed of casual players, loaners, people in between corporations, and people looking for something new. In the starter corporations there is of course the vast sea or completely new members to the game as well. To think that this demographic would be anything other than cannon fodder is kinda silly. Once you take into account the odds already stacked against them you have to consider that any group of people in a NPC corporation willing to PvP and organize in groups has what it takes to be a corporation themselves and deal with all the drawbacks inherent in player corporations. Such a group could also benefit from the various facilities provided to player corporations. So the question would be why are they in an NPC corporation? I don't think it very likely that such subgroups exist within NPC corporations. As for changes to the current system, Avon has perhaps the most reasonable post regarding this. I disagree regarding why NPC corporations would be targeted. The fact that they would be full of easy targets that could be targeted individually would be a prime reason to declare war on them. Even groups looking to get at hidden assets of a player corporation enemy would look at these easy targets as a secondary bonus. I also think that those who reside in NPC corporations, but may not need the continued security they provide should be encouraged to leave them with significant advantages provided in player corporations, not major sanctions being imposed on NPC corporations. From personal experience player corporations have more drawbacks than benefits. Corporation tax, internal politics, drama, war declarations, faulty management, indentured servitude, and external politics are all things that count against player organizations in my opinion. Basically I as a NPC corporation member should have a keen desire to want to join a player corporation because they are better, not because I can't do anything in a NPC corporation. I would add a point to Nuar post, there is another reason to stay in a NPC corp: if you have an alt that is active part of the time (for me they are my research alts, they do missions for standing, run R&D missions, ecc. so they are in game for 1-2 hours every day) it is pleasant to have a active corp chat, where you can speak with different people, sometime help them or simply comment without any obligation to do anything if you aren't interested. The same character would be useless in a player run corp unless I do a "Me and my alt corp", as they still have the starting skills in combat and ship use or at most 1-200K SP more. Putting them in a 1 man corp would be really lonely as they will be there with no chance of speaking with anyone; 99% of chat in local is advertising, treats and smacktalking, the rare occasions when someone start a interesting discussion you are just leaving the system . At the same time a 1 man corp will not give me anything useful, so again no reason to found one. Staying in a NPC corp don't give my alts special protection as they will not move valuable cargo every day and if someone get them the day they are moving huge volumes of datacores in paper tin ships (fat chance contracts exist) they will be killed, NPC corp or not. On a side note: "hiding weak characters in NPC corps so that they can move precious cargo". Was and is done regularly in RL (substitute NPC corp with other nation ships), the Lusitania was sunk because it was transporting weapons to a nation at war even if it was a ship from a neutral country.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:22:00 - [43] Originally by: Nur Vadenn As for changes to the current system, Avon has perhaps the most reasonable post regarding this. I disagree regarding why NPC corporations would be targeted. The fact that they would be full of easy targets that could be targeted individually would be a prime reason to declare war on them. Even groups looking to get at hidden assets of a player corporation enemy would look at these easy targets as a secondary bonus. That is why you add extra penalties for attacking those NPC corps. It should be possible to target them for the reasons I have given, but it should not be either easy or profitable. Reduced standing to the owning corporation, and their faction could actually be a big disincentive. It should go beyond being shot at by station sentry guns / factional navy ships. Reduced station services, higher refine and sales tax, and eventually total station lockout from the NPC corp, right up to total lock out from all stations of that faction. I don't think attacking NPC corps should be a ticket to an easy meal, but I do think that it should be possible. A determined corp or alliance may think it worth the penalty in order to disrupt an enemy hiding its soft underbelly inside an NPC corp, relying on the protection of the game mechanics, but it should not be the method of choice for "casual gankers". Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:31:00 - [44] Originally by: Venkul Mul On a side note: "hiding weak characters in NPC corps so that they can move precious cargo". Was and is done regularly in RL (substitute NPC corp with other nation ships), the Lusitania was sunk because it was transporting weapons to a nation at war even if it was a ship from a neutral country. When the Lusitania was sunk a magical fleet did not spawn and destroy the attackers. What kept the neutality was politics, diplomacy, and the perceived penalties of negating that neutrality .. not divine intervention or any special protection not open to others. The Lusitania, as far as RL analogies go, was in an alt corp, not an NPC one. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:37:00 - [45] Ugh...this thread... ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:34:00 - [46] Edited by: Grim Vandal on 17/12/2007 18:34:23 I vote Avon for new lead game designer. He kicks balls real hard. Honestly this guy pawns any thread with ******* awesome arguments. I am tempted to write him some love letters. everyone else failed, ok? btw why have all this warp to zero and local channel threads vanished. Greetings Grim
Nur Vadenn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:51:00 - [47] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Nur Vadenn As for changes to the current system, Avon has perhaps the most reasonable post regarding this. I disagree regarding why NPC corporations would be targeted. The fact that they would be full of easy targets that could be targeted individually would be a prime reason to declare war on them. Even groups looking to get at hidden assets of a player corporation enemy would look at these easy targets as a secondary bonus. That is why you add extra penalties for attacking those NPC corps. It should be possible to target them for the reasons I have given, but it should not be either easy or profitable. Reduced standing to the owning corporation, and their faction could actually be a big disincentive. It should go beyond being shot at by station sentry guns / factional navy ships. Reduced station services, higher refine and sales tax, and eventually total station lockout from the NPC corp, right up to total lock out from all stations of that faction. I don't think attacking NPC corps should be a ticket to an easy meal, but I do think that it should be possible. A determined corp or alliance may think it worth the penalty in order to disrupt an enemy hiding its soft underbelly inside an NPC corp, relying on the protection of the game mechanics, but it should not be the method of choice for "casual gankers". Hmm... interesting, but do you think such penalties would be even close to enough? I think the player groups that would declare war on a NPC corporation might care less about standings with one corporation or empire. The lockout of station services and access might be the only deterrent here that would carry any weight. I still think NPC corporations would find themselves not only at a major disadvantage, but also in a state of constant war. The facilities to cope with large scale PvP don't seem to be available to NPC corporation members and there would be no recourse for the situation. It still boils down to trashing the game experience of some to satiate the desires of PvP based players. I am not saying those desires are not valid, only that I question whether they should take precedence over the play experience of so many unwilling customers.
Snowcrash Winterheart2 Gallente Concordia Discors	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:51:00 - [48] Originally by: MotherMoon the ammar fleet sends 4 titans to eacg of your poses with 14 dreads. Yep, to paraphrase a dev at fanfest, when asked by someone if the player Alliances could declare war on the NPC's in Factional Warfare: "The NPC factions would crush the whole, combined fire-power, of every Alliance in the game like stepping on an annoying bug." Consider this, you wardec say the Federal Navy Academy (Gallente NPC corp)... how do you think the Gallente Navy will respond to that? Infinite ships, zero rebuild time. Not pretty, especially if CCP take the leash off and let them pod kill. ----- Four paws... four sets of claws.
Xauxau	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Avon The Lusitania, as far as RL analogies go, was in an alt corp, not an NPC one. The Lusitania was in a lightly patrolled section of the high seas, the in-game equivalent of Low-Sec space. As RL analogies go, trying to blow up an alt hauler in hi-sec is the equivalent of Blackbeard attempting to sail up the Thames and loot a river barge carrying gold for the Bank of England. He might make it to London, but he would never get his vessel back out to the open ocean, even if he issued a proclamation of war against the barge's owning corporation. Piracy in Hi-Sec space is supposed to be somewhere between hard and impossible. Is there any good reason why "privateering" of player alts should be any easier? Especially if all the suggested mechanisms for allowing it would also allow newbie-griefing? I'll admit, though, the in-game benefits of being in an NPC corp ought to come with a price. An additional 5-10% sales tax on all market transactions to cover the newbie corps "sponsorship costs"? Barely noticeable to newbies, a nuisance to pure PVE mission runners, monstrously expensive to industrial/hauler alts.
Nur Vadenn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:06:00 - [50] Originally by: Xauxau I'll admit, though, the in-game benefits of being in an NPC corp ought to come with a price. An additional 5-10% sales tax on all market transactions to cover the newbie corps "sponsorship costs"? Barely noticeable to newbies, a nuisance to pure PVE mission runners, monstrously expensive to industrial/hauler alts. No. NPC corporation membership already comes with a price. No POS, being kill on sight no matter what, and no corporation assets are just a few. A 5-10% corporation tax like player corporations can enact on bounties and mission payouts maybe should be an additional cost. Anything more would just be punitive of the group as a whole for no good reason.
Rejectea	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:09:00 - [51] Edited by: Rejectea on 17/12/2007 19:09:31 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss My ego is fairly humongous already. it's nice that your ego and my willy share something in common.
Pax Ratlin	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:25:00 - [52] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I've got nothing against NPC corps but I think that we should be able to choose to attack them. You already can, you can attack anyone in any corp at anytime in anyplace, you just have to be willing to pay the consequences, clearly your not. Originally by: Vyktor Abyss but it should be an option IMHO as it allows players to police other players At which point do you seriously think CCP are going to turn the 'policing' of the game over to the play base? I'll tell you when when EVE no longer makes a profit and has no chance of ever making a profit again and about 2 seconds before they turn off the server for good. At no point ever are they going to let paying customers police other paying customers. Vigilantism is all well and good until the vigilantes get it wrong then some innocent has to pay for the consequences of your actions.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:46:00 - [53] Edited by: Avon on 17/12/2007 19:46:31 Originally by: Nur Vadenn Hmm... interesting, but do you think such penalties would be even close to enough? I think the player groups that would declare war on a NPC corporation might care less about standings with one corporation or empire. The lockout of station services and access might be the only deterrent here that would carry any weight. I still think NPC corporations would find themselves not only at a major disadvantage, but also in a state of constant war. The facilities to cope with large scale PvP don't seem to be available to NPC corporation members and there would be no recourse for the situation. It still boils down to trashing the game experience of some to satiate the desires of PvP based players. I am not saying those desires are not valid, only that I question whether they should take precedence over the play experience of so many unwilling customers. Two points. Firstly, the penalties must be harsh enough. I don't know where the line should be drawn. Declaring war should put you on the verge of some serious faction penalties, and instantly provoke penalties from the NPC corp (Station sentry gun fire, or revoking docking rights to that corps stations, or both). As the war continues the penalites should become more severe each week, ending up with the wrath of the entire faction upon you. Reaching that point should be brought forward with each and every attack on a member of that NPC corp. This would help eliminate random attacks in favour of more selective engagements. If you get to the point of a maximum penalty, your time in any space controlled by the NPC corps faction should be short, and end explosively. All penalties should apply to the agressing corp / alliance, and I have no idea how, or even if, those penalties could be reduced in the future. As to the "trashing game experience" point, it works both ways. Ultimately this is a MMOG, and interaction with other players, including unwanted interaction, should be expected and accepted as part of "normal" gameplay. Of course a balance must be found, but a players desire to be left alone should not be more worthy than another players desire to interact with them. If a player really wants to have a high level of game mechanic protection, then they should be willing to sacrifice aspects of gameplay in order to "pay" for it. It is really about trying to keep all the players on as even a footing as possible. Just to be clear, I would rather nothing changed unless it can be done in a balanced and meaningful way. I am not in favour of "open season", but I don't think a change to NPC corp structure, and their seperation from starter corps, must always lead down that path. There are lots of ways I can envision maintaining an appropriate balance, and this suggestion is just my current favorite. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Nur Vadenn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:04:00 - [54] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 17/12/2007 19:46:31 As to the "trashing game experience" point, it works both ways. Ultimately this is a MMOG, and interaction with other players, including unwanted interaction, should be expected and accepted as part of "normal" gameplay. Of course a balance must be found, but a players desire to be left alone should not be more worthy than another players desire to interact with them. If a player really wants to have a high level of game mechanic protection, then they should be willing to sacrifice aspects of gameplay in order to "pay" for it. It is really about trying to keep all the players on as even a footing as possible. I agree in regards to player interaction. Its one of the reasons to play an MMOG, but the tools already exist to facilitate this undesired/unfavorable interaction. NPC corporation members don't live in an instanced vacuum when compared to other players. These players can be suicided in high-sec, fired upon and killed in low-sec or 0.0 and must abide by the same agro rules everyone else is bound by. In fact they sit at a disadvantage even here. If you steal from one NPC corp member you're not automatically flagged to them all. From what I can see the ONLY thing interaction wise NPC corp members are free from is wars. For this in my opinion they already pay a high enough price.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:15:00 - [55] Quote: - Simple as that really... I've got nothing against NPC corps but I think that we should be able to choose to attack them. In what possible world does being able to fly around nuking noobs just starting the game with impunity sound like a good idea to you?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:30:00 - [56] why cant we declare war on asteroids? oh yeah, because its pointless Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
shortattenionsp	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:39:00 - [57] Eve is tough enough for new players anyway. I bet 90% of genuine trial players aren't playing 5 days later. Basically you are asking CCP to cut off any chance of getting new players and revenue. It will never happen. If you want to pwn noobs with impunity go play counter-strike or something.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:53:00 - [58] No, you shouldn't be able to war dec NPC corps. But, the safety you get out of an NPC corps should cost you quite a bit more than it does today in the way of isk making abilities. ---- WSSH
Jill Antaris	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:55:00 - [59] Edited by: Jill Antaris on 17/12/2007 22:55:56 So you want a 2 M bill to kill every noob Corper around for one week? Imagine the Hac Pilot in front of the starter Station that spells half drunken "And a nother one! OMG I PAWN YOU ALL!!!" No thanks. You asking for something to get easy kills without a risk. That is lame. NPC Corps are not Organized, there are no leaders(because they would be in Player Corps if they want to lead). Far to easy to abuse and makes High Sec for Starters even harder. Simply wardec someone that can fight back, problem sloved. Nerf Lasers! Thay need far to less CPU and Grid to Fit. Still using not enught Cap and do far to mutch Damage. O wait... they allready did... =(
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:59:00 - [60] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 17/12/2007 23:00:45 the answer is really simple we cant declare war to them so that the macro isk sellers can be in peace there is no other reason think about it how easy would it be to modify it but there is nothign being done like for example making it that you can only be 2 weeks in a noob corp and then you come into some other corp which is wardeccable i ask again why are they not doing it
Jill Antaris	Posted - 2007.12.17 23:15:00 - [61] Edited by: Jill Antaris on 17/12/2007 23:16:32 Originally by: LUH 3471 Edited by: LUH 3471 on 17/12/2007 23:00:45 the answer is really simple we cant declare war to them so that the macro isk sellers can be in peace there is no other reason think about it how easy would it be to modify it but there is nothign being done like for example making it that you can only be 2 weeks in a noob corp and then you come into some other corp which is wardeccable i ask again why are they not doing it So where is the point of High Sec if you are pushed into a Corp that is 24/7 at Empire War with at a minimum 50 Corps(95% of the Targets can¦t fight back and if they can they are mostly solo) so everbody has to create a Playercorp or join one. There would be no point staying in that corp and very mutch options to for herasment. Nerf Lasers! Thay need far to less CPU and Grid to Fit. Still using not enught Cap and do far to mutch Damage. O wait... they allready did... =(
Terex193 Amarr Advanced Security And Asset Protection	Posted - 2007.12.17 23:31:00 - [62] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss High Sec isn't 100% safe?!?! Privateers proved that Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 07:54:00 - [63] Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 18/12/2007 08:04:22 /me high fives Avon. This has finally arrived at some good discussion. Thanks to those who see past their knee jerk reactions to the title and actually are interested in taking part in some proper 'general discussion'. Especially Nur for that Blackbeard analogy that made me chuckle, and hell even Venkul finally got round to posting something worthwhile. Anyway, having read all the comments, I'm wondering whether this should be a Factional Warfare discussion?!? The thing is I think lots of people have acknowledged there are currently an aweful lot of characters in game who are pretty much invulnerable to reprisals thanks to them being in NPC corps. Suicide ganking in high sec is done for profit - it is not a 'legal' or viable/sustainable method for controlling macro numbers, or impacting the Deltole farmers etc or those who (IMHO) tend to abuse the protection of NPC corps... The fact that the majority of people living in 0.0 have to have an Empire based (often NPC) mission runner to make money says it all to me really. Missioning is a fun playing style and I support that choice to do that 100%, but why can't/won't people do that in player corps? I'm a CEO - I'd set zero tax for them and let people do that if they contributed to the corp socially, with the mission experience etc - They'd be welcome SO long as they interect and 'help' the corp. Hmm....oops...tangent. Getting back to the facts: There's a large amount of experienced character living in NPC corps as shown by Dr.Eyo's stats. It is possible I read it wrong, but from the first 3 tables of Dr.EyjoG's blog it was something like 20% of the game's population with over 2 Million SPs were in NPC corps (tables 1-3). The average of this 20% was 11 million SPs if I read it/recall correctly. So we're talking a crap load of 'experienced' pilots here who are basically free from reprisals, wars and the (grevious) attention of the other 80% of the 'experienced' characters in game. Now Factional Warfare COULD help this and get these players more involved with the rest of the game by allowing us to wardec these NPC corps WITH GREAT PENALTIES (which Avon mentioned). It can be perhaps seperated from the trialists and genuine new players I guess by (something I didn't consider until Avon mentioned it) putting the trialists etc into an invulnerable corp (Concord Academy?!? ), and having the rest of those > 2M SP 'experienced' players be vulnerable to the same set of rules as the other 80% of experienced players in game are governed by - which is effectively player law (PVP a.k.a. the law of the gun! ). Anyway I don't know exactly where I'm going with this rambling post but hopefully I've shone a light on some other things for people to further discuss! So please do continue and shoot the breeze - It is fun to think about and generally discuss - Even if my initial idea/suggestion is a poor one unless put into a proper context (as hopefully has been done above in the discussion)... - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Pax Ratlin	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:22:00 - [64] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss The thing is I think lots of people have acknowledged there are currently an aweful lot of characters in game who are pretty much invulnerable to reprisals thanks to them being in NPC corps. Suicide ganking in high sec is done for profit - it is not a 'legal' or viable/sustainable method for controlling macro numbers, or impacting the Deltole farmers etc or those who (IMHO) tend to abuse the protection of NPC corps... So, again, because (by your own words) you ASSUME that SOMEONE SOMEWHERE maybe doing SOMETHING naughty you have the right to suggest that people should be forced to play the game in a manner they don't want to. Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I'm a CEO - I'd set zero tax for them and let people do that if they contributed to the corp socially, with the mission experience etc - They'd be welcome SO long as they interect and 'help' the corp. Hmm....oops...tangent. Oops real reason you wanna force people away from npc corps? Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Getting back to the facts: Oh people state one, just one, go on you can do it! Originally by: Vyktor Abyss It is possible I read it wrong, but from the first 3 tables of Dr.EyjoG's blog it was something like 20% of the game's population with over 2 Million SPs were in NPC corps (tables 1-3). The average of this 20% was 11 million SPs if I read it/recall correctly. So we're talking a crap load of 'experienced' pilots here who are basically free from reprisals, wars and the (grevious) attention of the other 80% of the 'experienced' characters in game. Okay lets talk assumptions here, you ASSUME that because these players have a crap load of SP's they must be using it to do something which warrants a reprisal, a wardec or simply annoying other players. Now that's just plain silly. Your painting a large number of people as bad because of the actions of a few. SP's do not indicate what a player does in the game only how long they have been in the game. Originally by: Vyktor Abyss having the rest of those > 2M SP 'experienced' players be vulnerable to the same set of rules as the other 80% of experienced players in game are governed by - which is effectively player law (PVP a.k.a. the law of the gun! ). You already can, come find me and you can shoot me i'm not hiding from you, send me a mail and i'll tell you were i am and you can come blow my mining barge outta the sky. The real problem is you don't wanna loose your ship to concord unlike the other high sec pirates (who frankly i have more respect for). What this boils down to is that there is a 'seeming large' number of players who don't want to play with you by your rules and that is upsetting you.
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:24:00 - [65] Originally by: LUH 3471 i ask again why are they not doing it because half the playerbase would go back to WoW.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:34:00 - [66] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss This has finally arrived at some good discussion. Thanks to those who see past their knee jerk reactions to the title and actually are interested in taking part in some proper 'general discussion'. Especially Nur for that Blackbeard analogy that made me chuckle, and hell even Venkul finally got round to posting something worthwhile. Probably some of my replies are cutting corners in the reasoning and arguments, but this is the Nth time I see this discussion and variations, even if the number of people arguing that it should be open seasons for the hunt of new players is less than in the average thread, so some of the replies are on automatic. Originally by: Vyktor Abyss The thing is I think lots of people have acknowledged there are currently an aweful lot of characters in game who are pretty much invulnerable to reprisals thanks to them being in NPC corps. Suicide ganking in high sec is done for profit - it is not a 'legal' or viable/sustainable method for controlling macro numbers, or impacting the Deltole farmers etc or those who (IMHO) tend to abuse the protection of NPC corps... The fact that the majority of people living in 0.0 have to have an Empire based (often NPC) mission runner to make money says it all to me really. Missioning is a fun playing style and I support that choice to do that 100%, but why can't/won't people do that in player corps? Getting back to the facts: There's a large amount of experienced character living in NPC corps as shown by Dr.Eyo's stats. It is possible I read it wrong, but from the first 3 tables of Dr.EyjoG's blog it was something like 20% of the game's population with over 2 Million SPs were in NPC corps (tables 1-3). The average of this 20% was 11 million SPs if I read it/recall correctly. So we're talking a crap load of 'experienced' pilots here who are basically free from reprisals, wars and the (grevious) attention of the other 80% of the 'experienced' characters in game. Several different arguments here, so I will reply to them in no specific order: I think there is a serious misunderstanding about Dr. EyjoG blog: from what I remember the definition he use is "active" characters, but the figures he use are more "not banned/deleted" characters, so his percentages include inactive characters. Those, generally, after the account is inactive for some time, are kicked out by the player corporations (often with the option to reenter if they return to the game). While for sure it include even the reverse (characters that have stopped gaming but are still members of some corporation) I think there is a fair percentage of inactive players in that 20% of skilled characters figure. I don't see any contradiction in being in a player corp and being a alt running missions, if the idea was to get the most from missions a group of 0.0 player alts could easily form a separated player corp to run mission in high sec, getting some advantages over member of NPC corporations: shared standing, corp hangars, ease in mission running together without risk in the event of a targeting error. I suspect they are not forming PC corp simply to avoid even that tiny bit of paperwork required by a high sec PC corp. A pure mission running high sec corporation is rarely targeted by a war dec (unless someone run around screaming "we are the alt of BOB/Goonswarm, ecc."). For this reasons I doubt most mission running alts "hide" in NPC corporations. It is much more probable they are there for a form of laziness. The situation change when we are speaking of specialized characters (my science alt are a good example). They stay in NPC corp for different reasons: - trade/production/hauling alt are those that see probably more activity and have an advantage being in a NPC corporation as it protect them from a war dec. (continue)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:34:00 - [67] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 18/12/2007 09:34:54 The only drawback for them is the impossibility to access a production/research POS facilities and the absence of a shared hangar between different alts. (continue)
Siouxsie Xai	Posted - 2007.12.18 10:41:00 - [68] You big enough to declare war on the entire Minmatar state? Declaring war on the Republic Military school would be doing just that. That fits the logical reason. Gameplay reason, The npc corps are for players to develop their characters or learn how to play. Forcing a 2 day old pilot into a corp war, would be like taking a boy scout and sending him to war. On the bright side, if you steal from a member of a npc corp, you are only flagged for that member and his/her gang.. not the entire corp. ( at least not form what I have seen ) I think that most if not all npc corps are directly related to a government.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:26:00 - [69] Originally by: Siouxsie Xai You big enough to declare war on the entire Minmatar state? Declaring war on the Republic Military school would be doing just that. Minmatar? No, we wouldn't attack our friends the Minmatar - Being Gallente I'd personally rather have a pop at the Caldari state! As suicidal as it may be, I'd love the option to do that. It would be like a tadpole attacking a blue whale and I'd expect them to take the same amount of notice as that blue whale - but the option to do so would be just lovely. Once... a long time ago (in a distant galaxy far, far away...) CCP thought it would be good for people to be able to attack the NPC factions too with their statements announcing planned Factional warfare. It is sad that we've been waiting SO long for anything to materialize on this - and that which has been mentioned is a much smaller (low sec only) mini-game version than the original booming idea. Venkul - I'll respond to you later when I have more time and have pondered your words more, but some nice points - thanks. Pax Ratlin - Shame on you. Your attitude stinks mate, you've made personal attacks at me for 'shooting the breeze' and in your last posts from your post history on anyone you don't agree with labeling them idiots. If anyone is assuming things here it is you by assuming to know my motivations which you've obviously missed by not reading the entire thread. Begone until you have something to contribute. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Pax Ratlin	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:20:00 - [70] Edited by: Pax Ratlin on 18/12/2007 12:20:56 Lets start at the bottom and work backwards Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Pax Ratlin - Shame on you. Your attitude stinks mate, you've made personal attacks at me for 'shooting the breeze' and in your last posts from your post history on anyone you don't agree with labeling them idiots. If anyone is assuming things here it is you by assuming to know my motivations which you've obviously missed by not reading the entire thread. Begone until you have something to contribute. 1) Fair comment i have been overly aggressive of late and for that i will apologise. 2) The posts i have made have been on two topics, forcing people out of npc corps and making npc corps wardecable (as stated in your OP but you have moved on from there i think). These are simply bad ideas for game mechanics which will be abused more than the alledged abuse they are intended to combat. 3) I have contributed to the disscusion, you simply ignore it. You have forward assumptions as facts to support your belief and when i ask you to prove it, you ignore. I asked a very valid question, at which point do you think a multi-million dollar business is going to let itself be policed by unappointed members of it's player base? Originally by: Vyktor Abyss As suicidal as it may be, I'd love the option to do that. It would be like a tadpole attacking a blue whale and I'd expect them to take the same amount of notice as that blue whale - but the option to do so would be just lovely. Again you can already do this, i have yet to see you disagree with me, you can attack any member of any npc corp at any time. All you want to do is be able to pay money to not be attacked by CONCORD but instead be killed automatically by station guns/ custom officials etc etc etc. What is the point of this other than to say i have wardec'ed an npc corp? As far as i can see you are asking for a new game mechanic which will allow a minority of people to use it for the purpose it was intended and the majoirty of griefers to pull it apart until they can find some way to exploit it? And as many other threads have proved once you wardec an npc corp, all the players will leave within 24 hours and form another npc corp
Jhonen Senraedi Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:25:00 - [71] Like the way a lot here say ..bad idea etc. If the NPC corps were made up ..just of new players then yes...but..you only have to check some of these rookie corps etc. and you see 3 year old plus vets in them. Many of these corps are a haven for griefers and pirates who are using the NPC corp status to hide from being wardecced whilst griefing. Now...Is it right that RMS etc.(The starter corps have 3 year old vets with 40m sp's in their ranks?)..Would Fed Navy etc. really allow their members to pirate? Basically..the NPC corp issues need to be looked at...perhaps it should come down to sp's...i.e after you reach a certain number of sp's you have to move to another NPC corp(Not a rookie one as you are deemed to have graduated) or a player corp.(Could also be based on time served) Maybe sec status should also be looked at..although neg status does not always make one a pirate...as there is a case for the majority of NPC corps not really being the sort who would harbour criminals. [/url]
Pax Ratlin	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:05:00 - [72] Originally by: Jhonen Senraedi Many of these corps are a haven for griefers and pirates who are using the NPC corp status to hide from being wardecced whilst griefing. I agree, i just dispute the numbers some people are claiming as facts or simply suggesting. Originally by: Jhonen Senraedi Basically..the NPC corp issues need to be looked at...perhaps it should come down to sp's...i.e after you reach a certain number of sp's you have to move to another NPC corp(Not a rookie one as you are deemed to have graduated) or a player corp.(Could also be based on time served) Again my argument is this 2 million plus SP's does not a griefer make, all it makes is someone who played the game for a few months. A miner who has 40 million SP's is still a miner, it dosn't make him a pirate, it dosn't make him a griefer, an isk miner or anything other than a miner who's mined for a long time and changes which skill he's learning to relive the boredom. A griefer is a griefer, a pirate is a pirate, a suicide ganker is a suicide ganker .... you don't become one of these when you reach so many SP's. What is needed is a mechanic to sort the griefer out and only the griefer. What has been suggested so far is a very large sledgehammer to smash a small walnut.
iiOs Caldari Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:42:00 - [73] Edited by: iiOs on 18/12/2007 13:42:12 my mom has cookies. On a side note; you my man, are a tard. You honestly think people wouldnt sit in empire ganking noobs 25/8, 366 days/year ?
Tar om Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:22:00 - [74] Edited by: Tar om on 18/12/2007 14:24:14 Originally by: iiOs Edited by: iiOs on 18/12/2007 13:42:12 You honestly think people wouldnt sit in empire ganking noobs 25/8, 366 days/year ? Yes of course. They already sit at gates on the edge of highsec all day... -- DEVS forget EVERYTHING because LAG is the only issue with which you need concern yourselves. www.octavianvanguard.net
Bob Stuart Federation Fleet Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:43:00 - [75] Carrots and sticks are usually necessary to make people change their behaviour. However, as it is a game, played for enjoyment, sticks may not work as intended - turning people against the game rather than modifying their behaviour. There needs to be more reasons to join/create a player corporation. And those reasons generally come down to making more isk and/or gaining more shiny things. So, possibly something to do with Ambulation, if/when it comes out. Have more high-sec POS, but instead of mining, manufacturing, research, have these high-sec POS be things like casinos, discos, whatever. Places for people to go and be social and spend isk. High traffic locations then become resources to fight over, and high-sec wars have another tangible thing to be a target. Or something else, whatever.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:47:00 - [76] Because new players being a the mercy of our more sociopathic players is a great way to lose them as players. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Tiger16ID	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:59:00 - [77] Edited by: Tiger16ID on 18/12/2007 17:06:02 Edited by: Tiger16ID on 18/12/2007 17:01:54 I'll give you an experience from a less than 6 weeks player with barely 1.2m SP and in a corp 2 months old. We left a mmog pvp game recently and decided to try EVE en mass there are about 35 to 40 of us. We liked the concept of skill training, trading, economy based advancement and team work. Our CO created a Corp so that we could play the game as an organized team. Remember we have been online gaming together for the better part of 4 years in another game so we are pretty organized however very weak due to the low SP. EVE was very attractive to us in the beginning, however we find our selves under constant wardec by more experienced players, who begin hostilities by ore jacking our miners, not for the ore but to get us to start a shooting engagement. We have had 7 wardecs in the 1 month and 8 days I have been playing the game, we have declared none of them mutual. One of these more experienced players set up corps with alts, wardeced us and never logs in for a week. He uses other alts, must have several accounts, to look around for our mining group. When he finds us mining he logs in the CEO and brings his more powerful alt into the 1 man corp, decloaks right next to our miners and pod kills them. Most recently he has hired a merc corp to destroy our corp. These mercs have been playing a long time we figure because their corp requires a 5 mil SP level before even considering applications. We fully expect to be camped at every gate and station we go to and to be pod killed. We don't even have jump clone capabilities yet to retain our implants. So go figure how long this new group of 40 players will stay subscribed while every single day someone wants to steal our lunch money and attacks us with battleships, command ships, recon ships and other tier2 weapons while we have at best 1 maybe 2 battle crusiers, a couple of cruisers some destroyers and the rest in frigates and mining vessels, none of which are tier2. Eventually with time for skill training we would be able to stand on our own but I just don't know if the majority of our members will vote to try another game or keep trying to play this one.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:15:00 - [78] Originally by: Tiger16ID Edited by: Tiger16ID on 18/12/2007 17:06:02 Edited by: Tiger16ID on 18/12/2007 17:01:54 I'll give you an experience from a less than 6 weeks player with barely 1.2m SP and in a corp 2 months old. We left a mmog pvp game recently and decided to try EVE en mass there are about 35 to 40 of us. We liked the concept of skill training, trading, economy based advancement and team work. Our CO created a Corp so that we could play the game as an organized team. Remember we have been online gaming together for the better part of 4 years in another game so we are pretty organized however very weak due to the low SP. EVE was very attractive to us in the beginning, however we find our selves under constant wardec by more experienced players, who begin hostilities by ore jacking our miners, not for the ore but to get us to start a shooting engagement. We have had 7 wardecs in the 1 month and 8 days I have been playing the game, we have declared none of them mutual. One of these more experienced players set up corps with alts, wardeced us and never logs in for a week. He uses other alts, must have several accounts, to look around for our mining group. When he finds us mining he logs in the CEO and brings his more powerful alt into the 1 man corp, decloaks right next to our miners and pod kills them. Most recently he has hired a merc corp to destroy our corp. These mercs have been playing a long time we figure because their corp requires a 5 mil SP level before even considering applications. We fully expect to be camped at every gate and station we go to and to be pod killed. We don't even have jump clone capabilities yet to retain our implants. So go figure how long this new group of 40 players will stay subscribed while every single day someone wants to steal our lunch money and attacks us with battleships, command ships, recon ships and other tier2 weapons while we have at best 1 maybe 2 battle crusiers, a couple of cruisers some destroyers and the rest in frigates and mining vessels, none of which are tier2. Eventually with time for skill training we would be able to stand on our own but I just don't know if the majority of our members will vote to try another game or keep trying to play this one. Guess what? Even though you are doing everything "right" according to most players (PC Corp, Playing together, fighting back, etc) you have been labelled farmers/macros simply because your "birth" date for everyone is within a couple of days. points back to this player's post See that anti-macros? You ARE driving legitimate players from the game..... Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:22:00 - [79] Originally by: lovin deathmetal lol, go declare war on a real corp, its so much more satisfying, plus, it'll prove your not some Removed - Valorem only looking to kill noob players to boast your own week ego but the only people i can kill are noob players :(
Tiger16ID	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:23:00 - [80] Edited by: Tiger16ID on 18/12/2007 17:24:44 We had conversations with these players during the encounters. I'm not sure if macros do that or not, maybe they do. I want to add, we're noobs and know it.
Nur Vadenn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.18 18:57:00 - [81] Its good this discussion has remained mostly civil. Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 18/12/2007 08:04:22 interesting reply... Vyktor Abyss, it is more clear now that you might not be the typical advocate of NPC corporation war simply looking for easy targets. That is a refreshing change to be sure. Now to address some of whats been said. First, I am going to still take issue with your repeated statement that NPC corp members are ôfree from reprisalö. This simply is not the case. As I said before NPC corp members can be shot at, suicided against, and stolen from. The only form of reprisal an NPC corp member is immune to is war declarations. All this means is you can exact any revenge you deem necessary from a player that has wronged you. You just have to calculate in a higher premium for that revenge. Not a problem in my opinion since NPC corporation members pay a premium for the war declaration immunity. Arguably that premium is pretty high. Now if one of your goals/intentions in all of this is to promote the virtues of PC corp life, then excellent. I think as a CEO you're going to have your work cut out for you though. I have yet to see one ad, heard one recruiter, or seen one reason that stands as a strong argument to join a PC corp. I hope one day that a good reason exists. Of course remember this is just my opinion, but apparently there are a lot of other people who have not gone the PC corp route either setting aside those seeking shelter so they can do bad things (i.e. farming, piracy, scamming). Originally by: Jhonen Senraedi Basically..the NPC corp issues need to be looked at...perhaps it should come down to sp's...i.e after you reach a certain number of sp's you have to move to another NPC corp(Not a rookie one as you are deemed to have graduated) or a player corp.(Could also be based on time served) Maybe sec status should also be looked at..although neg status does not always make one a pirate...as there is a case for the majority of NPC corps not really being the sort who would harbour criminals. You're right here Jhonen Senraedi, the criminal element living in all of the NPC corporations may need addressing, but raw skillpoints is hardly a good metric to follow. Security status might be a better choice, but there are workarounds to that. I guess the only other thing I would ask is if that person is not a criminal and not an alt then why would they stay in a NPC corp for 3+ years? There has to be a reason and I am unwilling to write them off as simply being afraid of war'decs. I would then ask is it even remotely fair to force these people into something they want no part of so that zealots can more easily ply their trade?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.12.18 19:18:00 - [82] Originally by: Nur Vadenn Not a problem in my opinion since NPC corporation members pay a premium for the war declaration immunity. Arguably that premium is pretty high. I would argue that that premium isn't high enough. What is it NPC corp members are losing that you feel is a "high premium"? ---- WSSH
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.18 19:35:00 - [83] Originally by: Tiger16ID Edited by: Tiger16ID on 18/12/2007 17:24:44 We had conversations with these players during the encounters. I'm not sure if macros do that or not, maybe they do. I want to add, we're noobs and know it. By the look you aren't even Caldari, so you shouldn't be playing in the more congested areas of EVE. My best suggestion is: move all of your corporation to a area with less population. Amarr space has lots of high sec system with low population and some area of high security in all the empires has a low population number. That kind of griefer don't really want to work for his "fun", so you should lose the old set, and in a less populated area you should have the time to consolidate, learn the game and should avoid most of the griefing wardeccers.
fred102	Posted - 2007.12.18 19:47:00 - [84] Edited by: fred102 on 18/12/2007 19:50:37 how about, no corp hangers, cant anchor pos, cant declare war themselves, cant get help to pound on ore thieves, as no other npc corp members can help them, have to use the can flagging work around to engage in consensual pvp practice(a minor one i admit) no corp framework to support them(mostly(there are a few npc corp groups that look out for each other but these are in the minority)) have to put up with long wait times for access to npc material and copy slots due to no anchoring of pos. etc.. etc.. there are a lot of things that are foregone by npc corp members, and its not always just to avoid war decs, for my part i simply dont care for the politics and drama that are involved in running and maintaining a PC and as said before the war immunity is pretty limited, if i do something to **** off another player, it could actually be cheaper for him to just harrass me as one player to another, then to war dec the entire corp, as it costs him nothing to follow me around and mess with my game play......
Nur Vadenn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.18 19:55:00 - [85] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Nur Vadenn Not a problem in my opinion since NPC corporation members pay a premium for the war declaration immunity. Arguably that premium is pretty high. I would argue that that premium isn't high enough. What is it NPC corp members are losing that you feel is a "high premium"? The game mechanic limitations: No POS's personal or otherwise, we have to stand in line for research, invention, and manufacturing services. No corporate hangars to pull ôfreeö stuff from when we are down on our luck. Everything for us has to be paid for out of pocket. Pre-nerfed theft mechanics. No access to corporate hangar arrays on capital ships. The player base imposed limitations: An over zealous ômacro-hunterö population that presumes guilt regardless of evidence. The widely accepted player presumption that every NPC corp member is just an alt and should be treated as a second class citizen of EVE. Being marked NBSI by every corporation and alliance in low-sec/0.0 regardless of personal effort to negotiate. I could go on. The grass is indeed not much greener on this side of the fence.
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises	Posted - 2007.12.18 19:59:00 - [86] Wardeccing NPC corps with people in them is lame. What I'd like to see is for corps to be able to run sorties into, say Caldari space, and attack the faction police there. Unfortunately, the faction police are so uber that you just get permajammed, webbed to buggery, and you're dead. Bring the faction police down from their uber pedestal.
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.18 20:01:00 - [87] I will agree to your idea of war dec'ing NPC corps providing they are only the military corps or control the military. ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.18 20:07:00 - [88] Edited by: Avon on 18/12/2007 20:07:40 Originally by: Druadan Wardeccing NPC corps with people in them is lame. To be fair, Non Player Character corps with player characters in them is pretty lame too, non? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Etrias Jhozah	Posted - 2007.12.18 20:14:00 - [89] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 18/12/2007 20:07:40 Originally by: Druadan Wardeccing NPC corps with people in them is lame. To be fair, Non Player Character corps with player characters in them is pretty lame too, non? The terminology is being used wrong. But then again, you're not really making a point, are you?
Iyanah Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2007.12.18 20:38:00 - [90] Originally by: Crumplecorn NPC corps exist so people can hide from PvP. You may as well ask for high-sec to be 100% safe. It's basically the same request in the opposite direction. no, that's not it at all. they exist so that some jerk doesn't make a one man corp, grab a raven and camp the newbie station, so that the first experience every new player gets is being podded the second they log in and undock (since they are completely new and don't know what a wardec even IS) ========================================== that's no moon... oh, wait, yes it is, the space station's out the other window.

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