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Faction Weapons: Buff Required?

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Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 72	Posted - 2012.02.06 17:42:00 - [1] - Quote Currently Faction weapons are a bit of a joke. They offer very little in the way of benefits over T2 for a very large price tag. A heavy neutron blaster is about 65 mill on contracts (approx 30mill each via LP store with 1lp=1000isk) vs a T2 which is about 1.6 mill. I find this a real shame and think a review of faction weapons and their abilities could be beneficial to EvE. A very simple solution would be to give faction weapons the ability to use T2 ammo and to have the weapon specialisation skill apply to them without increasing the weapon to T2 skill requirements in order to use it. What do you think?
Xolve The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore 803	Posted - 2012.02.06 17:46:00 - [2] - Quote No. Faction Weapons, with Faction Ammo can actually outdamage T2 Guns with T2 Ammo. T2 guns are crap by themselves (even harder to fit), and their real use is gained from using both mid damage, long range or high damage, short range ammo, in addition to faction ammo. Learn to EvE. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator.
Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 72	Posted - 2012.02.06 17:53:00 - [3] - Quote Xolve wrote: No. Faction Weapons, with Faction Ammo can actually outdamage T2 Guns with T2 Ammo. T2 guns are crap by themselves (even harder to fit), and their real use is gained from using both mid damage, long range or high damage, short range ammo, in addition to faction ammo. Learn to EvE. T2 guns out damage faction guns as you need spec skills to use them which increase their damage output. examples of issues: Fed navy Light Ion blasters are actually more difficult to fit than T2 ion blasters. Fed navy heavy blasters are only fractionally better than meta 4 guns and are more difficult to fit and only fractionally easier to fit than T2 etc etc.
Cade Windstalker EVE University Ivy League 3	Posted - 2012.02.06 17:57:00 - [4] - Quote The point of faction guns is, from what I can tell, more to give people an upgrade option without training T2 guns. You have to pay a lot more for said upgrade but you also don't have to spent the skills training time for T2. Letting them use T2 ammo would massively over power them, as it is you can get them pretty close to T2 gun damage and they're far from worthless for all gun types. cough cough Arties In the case of the T2 Neutrons you're getting better fittings and less Cap use AND a better base damage mod in exchange for slightly reduced damage over T2 guns. Not a bad trade-off all things considered.
Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 72	Posted - 2012.02.06 17:59:00 - [5] - Quote Have you ever really considered fitting them to a PvP ship? I haven't even considered using them on a PvE ship! I haven't for the simple fact that they don't perform well enough for their cost. Even when people are flying around in 2 bill ships they fit T2 guns not faction
Cade Windstalker EVE University Ivy League 3	Posted - 2012.02.06 18:02:00 - [6] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Have you ever really considered fitting them to a PvP ship? I haven't even considered using them on a PvE ship! I haven't for the simple fact that they don't perform well enough for their cost. Even when people are flying around in 2 bill ships they fit T2 guns not faction People only rarely fit faction modules to T2 ships as it is, even if they did better damage you still wouldn't see them in PvP. Also try running incursions, you'll see plenty of faction guns floating around. Not Fed Navy Neutrons but I've seen a fair number of machs with Republic Fleet Autocannons or Nightmares with Imperial Navy lasers.
Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 72	Posted - 2012.02.06 18:06:00 - [7] - Quote If faction weapons spat out an extra 10% damage (spec skill influence) I'm pretty sure you would start seeing plenty of them on PvP ships. People are more than happy to fit faction webs/damage mods/points/tank etc because they perform well with respect to their cost.
Xolve The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore 805	Posted - 2012.02.06 18:15:00 - [8] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: If faction weapons spat out an extra 10% damage (spec skill influence) I'm pretty sure you would start seeing plenty of them on PvP ships. People are more than happy to fit faction webs/damage mods/points/tank etc because they perform well with respect to their cost. :getout: Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator.
Ager Agemo X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence 39	Posted - 2012.02.06 18:21:00 - [9] - Quote actually most T2 weapons with faction ammo and level 4 spec will outdps all the faction weapons i can think about. after checking fast on EFT, yup, all the T2 weapons will out dps pretty much all the faction weapons with just using faction ammo, and with T2 ammo will often outperform on very high levels the faction weapons. (long range weapons get nice tracking bonuses, while short range ones get to hit with high dps at rather long ranges) also training for T2 weapons is way easy and fast, so i dont think that is a reason at all to fit faction weapons. true, price MUST NOT mean stuff is almighty, but for 60 mill ISK for a navy railgun... i would expect AT LEAST! 10% more dps than a T2 gun using same ammo, same for all the other faction weapons. Xolve wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: If faction weapons spat out an extra 10% damage (spec skill influence) I'm pretty sure you would start seeing plenty of them on PvP ships. People are more than happy to fit faction webs/damage mods/points/tank etc because they perform well with respect to their cost. :getout: if this happens i would love to see those guys with faction guns go boom so i can loot their guns :D
Xolve The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore 805	Posted - 2012.02.06 18:33:00 - [10] - Quote Ager Agemo wrote: actually most T2 weapons with faction ammo and level 4 spec will outdps all the faction weapons i can think about. Oh, you're one of those. I don't know anything about Spec IV, all mine are at V. If your talking about LP Purchased weapons, then I have no idea, as was pointed out by a friend- I'm thinking about Deadspace weapons. I do marginally (20-25) more dps with faction guns then their T2 counterparts, I normally use dps just for damage application purposes with a mix of T2/Faction Ammo. I could stop winning at EvE, log in, and prove this; but :effort:. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator.
Tidurious The Dirty Rejects Scelus Sceleris. 52	Posted - 2012.02.06 20:04:00 - [11] - Quote The whole point of the faction weapons being on-par with T2 weapons is that you DON'T NEED AN ADDITIONAL 6 WEEKS OF TRAINING TO USE THEM. Faction guns cost a LOT of ISK, which is the price you pay for not training T2 guns. You don't need additional skills to use faction guns, just ISK. Therefore, you can train other skills to improve your tank, speed, a new ship, etc. while being able to have the same or at least similar damage output as T2 guns, which take a long time to train. They don't need a buff, people just need to realize that their damage benefit is not their ONLY benefit. Consider the reduced training time and then re-think the need to buff these guns.
Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 72	Posted - 2012.02.06 20:23:00 - [12] - Quote as I said....... Let the specialisation apply but not be required for use..... This would mean that people who have the spec skill get a benefit from the expensive guns People who haven't trained the spec skill would still get to use them What if the guns got the spec skill benefit but were not able to use T2 ammo?
Xolve The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore 808	Posted - 2012.02.06 20:25:00 - [13] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: as I said....... Let the specialisation apply but not be required for use..... This would mean that people who have the spec skill get a benefit from the expensive guns People who haven't trained the spec skill would still get to use them What if the guns got the spec skill benefit but were not able to use T2 ammo? No. Just No. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator.
Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 72	Posted - 2012.02.06 20:26:00 - [14] - Quote Why not? Other than "no". I tell you what.... if faction gear isn't supposed to be better than T2, just easier to fit and similar performance. Then with that logic things like faction damage mods should be nerfed. Faction tackle should be nerfed and faction tank should be nerfed so that it's more in line with your thinking that faction is more for lower skills and big wallets
Xolve The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore 808	Posted - 2012.02.06 20:37:00 - [15] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Why not? Other than "no". Other then it being terrible idea and promoting instant gratification? If you don't want to pay for them, don't. Faction guns already have the advantage of being useable at the relative skill being trained to level II or III, and you want them to perform on a level that currently belonds to players that took not only the time to train that initial skill to V but also a secondary skill to IV/V. No, just no. People should see a return for their dedication to seeing a skill through, and these are not even long skills to train, so the entire basis of your argument is to promote laziness and indecision, so sorry to disagree with you; but not only no, HELL NO. Enabling players with fractions of the skillpoints other players have to play the game on the same level entirely defeats the purpose and mechanics behind the skill training system, and being as this is how CCP continues to get paid (i.e. their source of revenue since they nerfed ghost training) it won't change. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator.
Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 72	Posted - 2012.02.06 20:41:00 - [16] - Quote Hang on a minute....... You still have to train the skills to get the benefit. You don't just get +10%. You have to put the time in to get that and use the SP you have trained. It isn't being lazy and getting "free performance".
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 130	Posted - 2012.02.06 20:55:00 - [17] - Quote The skill argument only applies to large guns. Small guns take what, 5 days to train to get T2? In many cases, the Faction guns are worse than meta 4 in some ways (look at faction blaster optimal vs meta4 blaster optimal). Also, letting them use T2 crystals does not mean you can use T2 crystals without T2 skills. As with missiles, if you don't have FOF or defender skills, you cant fit those missiles in your lanucher even though that launcher accepts those missile types. So if faction guns accepted T2 crystals, it should still require the spec skills to fit those crystals. Those who spend the ISK get their bonus. Those with T2 skills can still spend ISK and get a bonus. Aside from fixing some of the faction stats which are worse than meta 4 stats, I think the best solution is to let them fit T2 crystals if the player has the skills. If you can't make the spec skills apply to them (for the 2% damage boost per level) and still have them accessible to noobs, then I'd up their damage to be 10% higher than the base T2 gun (such that they are equal at spec 5) - essentially giving you a T2 gun that uses less cap than a meta 4 gun (for projectiles... I dunno, lower fitting reqs or a bigger magazine? I think its BS that T2 guns use more cap anyway, the cap usage increase should be a property of the T2 crystal/ammo - otherwise its a BS penalty that T2 hybrids and lasers get, but projectiles don't - or I could see reducing T2 projectile magazine size and having faction projectiles be basically a T2 gun with a larger magazine)
King Rothgar Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 184	Posted - 2012.02.06 21:41:00 - [18] - Quote Faction guns are complete ****, they do less damage than t2 and cost many, many times more just to make. They are in need of a buff if anyone wants them to actually see the light of day. The same is true of faction plates (inferior to rolled tungsten). The realistic option is to make them t2 with no other changes. They have greater base damage than t2, it's the spec skill difference that kills them. If they had that spec skill applied, they'd offer a modest dps increase at a very high price tag. The price to performance difference would be pretty similar to faction damage mods compared to t2. As someone who's sold his share of imperial navy heat sinks and RF gryo's, I assure you they are very popular. I'm also a frequent user of both for both pvp and pve. Faction plates need to give a greater HP bonus over t2/RT. Currently they have a smaller mass increase but the mass difference is so small it doesn't have a measurable impact on any ship's agility or top speed. If you're plating up, you aren't looking for agility anyways, you're after HP. Beyond that I can't think of any faction mods in need of work. Some have some absurd tag requirements to purchase from the LP store (ie 400 tags for a frigate module) but the mods themselves are solid.
Alticus C Bear University of Caille Gallente Federation 37	Posted - 2012.02.06 22:39:00 - [19] - Quote Agreed. They either need an LP store rebalance to make them much cheaper or a stat boost, not sure about making them T2 as I feel the T2 ammo should be left for those guns alone. They Should have better Damage with Navy faction ammo than T2 though.
King Rothgar Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 186	Posted - 2012.02.07 00:08:00 - [20] - Quote The problem with that kind of adjustment I see is that some weapons are more affected by t2 ammo than others. A simple example is that of megapulses vs tachyons. Megapulses without scorch are very limited in capability, scorch basically makes those guns work and is often the primary crystal used. Without scorch, a megapulse isn't a very good turret. On the other hand, it's a rare day to actually load one of the t2 beam crystals into your guns. Tachyons use faction crystals as their primary types and as such, would not really suffer from being unable to use t2 ammo. There are some super long range sniper setups that require t2, but most do not. I foresee buffing faction guns to do more damage than t2 but without the t2 ammo resulting in the faction long range guns being better than t2 while the short ranged ones remain inferior. That's a problem imho. However, if they are simply all made t2, that problem goes away. Everything is nice and balanced and everyone (almost) is happy. The only downside is some people are using faction turrets as a crutch until they train up t2 guns. Such a change would be unfortunate for them but this is a case where I think majority rule needs to apply. Far more people would benefit from faction turrets requiring t2 skills and getting the appropriate advantages than would suffer from that change being made.
Sishen Gzi Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2012.02.07 02:08:00 - [21] - Quote If you were to actually look at the stats for weapons you would see that in nearly all cases the factional mod is better then the T2 variant. Just for an example the Federation Navy Large Electron Blaster varies from the T2 in 4 stats, the factional mod requires less powergrid, uses 3/4 the amount of cap and does slightly higher damage, the T2 mod has a slightly longer optimal. In 3 out of 4 cases the faction mod is better, and in cap usage it is way better. If factional mods were allowed to use T2 ammo why would anyone not use them, besides for the incredibly high price demand would give to faction guns. As far as just letting the faction guns benefit from the weapons specialization but not use the T2 ammo, this is meaningless and the suggestion ignorant. The T2 guns do not benefit from the Weapon Specialization, the ammo does. A T2 hybrid firing factional ammo does less damage then a factional gun, the only time a T2 Hybrid gets a damage boost from the specialization is when firing T2 ammo, and that comes with a drawback.
Nestara Aldent Citimatics 48	Posted - 2012.02.07 02:55:00 - [22] - Quote Supported. They should _at least_ be able to use T2 ammo, have lower fitting requirements than T2, and perhaps do more damage as well, and be less skill intensive than T2.
Lucjan R-E-D 25	Posted - 2012.02.07 03:07:00 - [23] - Quote I'm with you. it's the decryptors and/or other garbage it takes to make. How about a bonus if you use faction with the same faction ammo. x2 boom u got ur super weapon and a market for it.
Mors Sanctitatis Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS 373	Posted - 2012.02.07 04:50:00 - [24] - Quote You guys are ridiculous. Such limited thinking here. #1, faction guns shouldn't be allowed to use T2 ammo. Ever. #2, faction guns should have a base damage output of 10% higher than T2 with the same faction ammo. #3, matched faction guns/ammo (e.g caldari navy rails with caldari navy antimatter) would get an additional 5% damage bonus. #4, using an entire set of matched guns in all fitting slots gives another 5% bonus to damage. #5, fitting matched faction guns with matched faction ammo to a matched faction ship (gallente navy mega with fed navy guns/ammo nets another 5% damage bonus. The end result: big big DPS from expensive fits. It's awesome. Do it. To the douchebags who keep chirping the "OMG, you don't have to invest any training time!!!" just.... stop talking. I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
mxzf Shovel Bros 494	Posted - 2012.02.07 05:06:00 - [25] - Quote Mors Sanctitatis wrote: Set bonus proposal Hey, look, set bonuses in Eve, that's something I've never seen before. /sarcasm Go back to WoW! Seriously, what kind of stupid idea is this?
Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 74	Posted - 2012.02.07 06:18:00 - [26] - Quote I thought about set bonuses and matching navy/pirate guns to navy/pirate ships. I don't think that it's a bad idea but I don't think that it would be very well rceived. As you can see. Just talking about buffing these weapons brings out the nerd rage in some (l33t) players. To those getting confused about the skills. It's probably how I'm explaining it but I'll try to simplify what I'm saying: Idea is faction guns don't have the specialisation skill as a prerequisite to use the weapon but will be affected by it if it has been trained. I would have to check but I'm sure T2 outperforms faction everytime in damage output and range
Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 76	Posted - 2012.02.09 09:50:00 - [27] - Quote Bump
Spugg Galdon Mak Mining Corp 90	Posted - 2012.02.10 11:26:00 - [28] - Quote bump
Xolve The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore 858	Posted - 2012.02.10 19:03:00 - [29] - Quote You're all bad, and should feel bad, stop bumping this garbage. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator.
Sephiroth CloneIIV Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK 53	Posted - 2012.02.10 21:00:00 - [30] - Quote meta 4 costs much more then tech 2 too. Compare tech 2 heavy missile launchers to albrest. Why?? Supply and demand, faction drops even more rarely then meta 4. CCP does not set the prices, no NPC sells the stuff, only players. Also as others pointed out, less training needed. I think someone needs to understand the game..... Faction could get a boast but that would not help cost.

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