Originally by: Avataris

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Originally by: Annowyn

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Edited by: Annowyn on 23/12/2007 12:25:20

Yes, it does in fact look like you managed to blob a couple of vags. Cookie?

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Congrats on proving my point.

I just knew there would be someone like you. Presented with proof that vagabonds can (and are) killed on a daily basis you resort to the old 'but I cant kill them solo in my drake/battleship/*insert shiptype here*'

This is why Eve is a multiplayer game, where working with a gang pays the best rewards. Ofcourse using tactics and team work must be an alien concept to you, so dont worry your pretty little head about it.

Eve is being dumbed down for dummies.

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Originally by: King Hopy

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A solo nanoship (par the ishtar) cant kill anything alone?

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Originally by: Skeiron

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Instead of:

Non-nano-pilot: Nerf speed!!1 I can't hit a vaga orbitting at 13km and even if I could it can just run away since it is faster.

Look at it from both sides of the argument:

Nano-pilot: Nerf tank!!1 I can't kill anything when I'm going high transversal, since my damage is gimped too then, and they can just ask for reinforcements while I deal crappy dps that doesn't hurt their tank a bit.

Compare, think, call it balance.

Taking away the speed from speedtankers is like taking away the lowslots on an armortanker

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Originally by: Avataris

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So you want to nerf speed not because its overpowered but because it enables people to choose when they want to fight?

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Originally by: Avataris

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I'm sorry but i disagree with you.

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Originally by: King Hopy

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Originally by: Inflexible

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Originally by: Avataris

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I'm sorry but i disagree with you.

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That's your right.
My right is to call nanos overpowered.
Fact that ppl are ignoring intel about incoming overpowered ship is completely irrelevant to this issue.

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There are countless counters to nanoes aside from actually watching local.. And when its a gang it doesnt matter a bit if its nanoes or whatever, you will get ganked anyway.

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Originally by: Avataris

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Originally by: Wizzkidy

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The way I see it is that everyone fits nano now anyway so whats the differance?

You DONT fit nano your DEAD it really is that simple, and it should NOT be like that

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/signed

so fix blobbing and gatecamps.

leave nanos alone.

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Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

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Success rate of a Vagabond vs AC PVP Tempest is about 0%. If he fits neuts you will just die. So yeah, I agree to your points, boost Vagabonds...

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Originally by: Avataris

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Originally by: Inflexible

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This is about PvP. PLAYER vs. PLAYER. If you like flying with all guns blazing, accept possibility you can die.
If you are not pro, you should lose approx 50% of fights, because other player should win sometimes too. If there is lots of winning, there is lots of losing too. Accept that.

Defending ship or setup because you might be losing more without it is... well... not very well thought. You acknowledge you might not be as pro as you try to pretend.

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I'm sorry, I must have got the wrong end of the stick, because I thought you were talking about actual gameplay balancing, not fictional 1v1 balancing.

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Originally by: King Hopy

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Where did you get the idea that nanoships can kill alot? It's GANGS of nanoships that can do that and even if they werent nanoed they still would.

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Originally by: Avataris

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The real problem, and the reason nanoships exist, is that pilot survivability is imbalanced with the tools available to stop them getting away.

We have:

webbers
scramblers
disruptors
small bubbles
medium bubbles
large bubbles
interdictors
heavy interdictors

and more.
When warp stabs were nerfed people needed a way to be able to move without having to form a blob in order to do it. Hence the rise of nanofits.

Now you want to take away speed as well?

Have you really thought through where you want this game to go?

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Originally by: King Hopy

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You do know that a max skilled vagabond fighting outside overheated web range (13km) does around 150-170 dps excluding drones?

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Originally by: Victor Ivanov

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That was a response to you fitting the deimos for long range with full MFS in lows and then comparing the dps to a vagabond you idiot. -_-

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Originally by: Victor Ivanov

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So he magically conjures up a deimos with long range ammo in a blaster gun and starts comparing it to a vagabond, then claims that a vagabond is superior. If I then reverse the roles and claim that his argument of the vagabond being superior in its designed role is irrelevant by showing that the deimos is far superior at close range than a vagabond it gets interpreted as faulty reasoning by an alt poster.

-_- Post with your main, read. I'm not one of the whiners who complains about torpedoes no longer having range, I'm one of the people who realizes that nerfing speed will make a vagabond so vulnerable as to become almost obsolete, and have proven that it will on numerous occassions now. Goumindong may continue argueing about irrelevant points that have nothing to do with whether or not a speed nerf would hurt the vagabond in ways that would imbalance the minmatar race, but he's not actually proving anything to indicate that it is indeed overpowered and requires a nerf.

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Originally by: Victor Ivanov

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And a vagabond beating a deimos is funny, mostly because you are conveniently forgetting that a deimos has a high burst speed. Since you are comparing a snaked vagabond to an unsnaked deimos, let's give the deimos some snakes too, shall we? That gives a burst speed of around 2.5km. Let's say that the vagabond is attacking the deimos at a normal vagabond's range, namely 15km.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Want to buy a clue: Top 20 T2 ship destruction rates

As we can see, the vagabond destruction rate is just a bit higher than the one concerning cerberus'es.

Also, taking into account that the average stay on an EvE player corresponds to approximately 7 months, first not everybody and it's mother are flying HAC's, and despite Caldari being the major race in demographic density, second not every Caldari mission runner is regularly loosing cerberuses in missions.

So maybe Lyria could explain us HOW THE HELL cerberus & vagabond destruction rates are almost similar given the complete different set of abilities and role these ships imply.

I know that being able to display OBJECTIVE & FACTUAL numbers showing that vaga's have almost the same destruction rate like a non-nano HAC isn't what the anti-nano whining crowd appreciates, but so is reality.

And that you don't want to cope with reality should remain your sole and private burden...

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Originally by: Inflexible

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Want to buy a clue: Top 20 T2 ship destruction rates

As we can see, the vagabond destruction rate is just a bit higher than the one concerning cerberus'es.

Also, taking into account that the average stay on an EvE player corresponds to approximately 7 months, first not everybody and it's mother are flying HAC's, and despite Caldari being the major race in demographic density, second not every Caldari mission runner is regularly loosing cerberuses in missions.

So maybe Lyria could explain us HOW THE HELL cerberus & vagabond destruction rates are almost similar given the complete different set of abilities and role these ships imply.

I know that being able to display OBJECTIVE & FACTUAL numbers showing that vaga's have almost the same destruction rate like a non-nano HAC isn't what the anti-nano whining crowd appreciates, but so is reality.

And that you don't want to cope with reality should remain your sole and private burden...

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Let's fly hulks, thay are almost indestructible \o/
Well, statistics told me that...

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Either you can't interpret statistics and replace them in the appropriate context, either your cheap sarcastic remark does NOT apply on vaga's vs cerberus'es since BOTH the built numbers and the destroyed numbers are almost similar.

Next.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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A) Number of built Cerberus = Number of built Vagabonds.
B) Number of popped Cerberus slightly below number of popped vagas.

You are implying that Vagabonds used in PvP enjoy a much higher survival rate than Cerberuses, but this automatically implies that most of Cerberus deaths come from mission running.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Originally by: Inflexible

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Yes it was sarcastic remark. I'm certain you know cerberuses are used for carebearing in empire and are being used at least five times less than vagas in PvP. It is because vaga is largely superior to cerb.

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If you believe a Vaga is superior to a Cerb we can stop talking right now. A Cerb just need to maintain its trail of missiles up the vaga's butt, and as soon the vaga wants to slowdown to take a few shots it will begin to take consistent damage.

And unless you too believe that Cerberus pilots can't do missions without loosing their ship, it means that Cerberus'es die as much as Vaga's in PvP, or vice-versa.

I'm bored of clueless nanowhiners complaining about the least effective nanoship. The only thing a vaga is good at is at having the highest amount of failed engagements, while other ships might not attack as easy once they have you in their sights, you're almost sure to get popped.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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I never said that vaga's aren't extensively used. I say that as soon they are NOT in gang, they seldom represent a threat for a similar or bigger ship.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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And as soon a vaga is ganged, their effectiveness is a moot point because they are NOT the ship which will deliver the main DPS which will bring down the target.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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AAA is the most interesting since the set of stats is much more complete. Just check the number of destroyed vagas for the last 3 days... And we are talking about an invulnerable ship right?

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