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Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party Federal Consensus Outreach
0
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Posted - 2012.02.07 00:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Contrary to what the relativism of the Sociocrats might argue, for us, not all civilisations are of equal value. In regard to the values held by Gallenteans and I believe by all Federal parties, there are civilisations that we prefer. Those who defend liberty, equality and fraternity, seem to us superior to those who accept tyranny, the subservience of women, social and ethnic hatred.
Gallentean civilisation has uplifted so many others. No civilisation has been unimproved by contact with our people. The dream of a universal Federation of humanity, according to those ideals we hold dear has not yet been achieved. In fact, we are further from our goal that we have been at any time since Federation.
My predecessor in this role warned this chamber many times of the danger posed by the Amarr Empire. He said that, alone, among the peoples of New Eden, the Amarr could never be Federated, could never accept the principles outlined in the Articles of Federation. His warning is as true now as it has always been.
This will be brief, esteemed colleagues, as I am not a verbose man. I leave the Sociocrat members of this assembly with a challenge: Does the Social Democratic Party find a civilisation that enslaves men and women, violates personal and political freedoms, and allows tyranny a civilisation that has the same value as ours?
Consider it well. The future of Gallentean civilisation depends on our answer.
Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station |
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto. Veto Corp
64
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Posted - 2012.02.07 00:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
I would find it hard to believe that a "relativist" (ie. a thoughtful mind) would consider two cultural constructs -- nations, imagined communities -- as being of equal value. After all, isn't that what relativism is? |
Senn Typhos
Anshar Incorporated
8
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Posted - 2012.02.07 01:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hans Nardieu wrote: Gallentean civilisation has uplifted so many others. No civilisation has been unimproved by contact with our people.
You certainly improved what remains of mine. |
Aurelie Severasse
The Light on the Hill
0
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Posted - 2012.02.07 03:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Senn Typhos wrote:Hans Nardieu wrote: Gallentean civilisation has uplifted so many others. No civilisation has been unimproved by contact with our people.
You certainly improved what remains of mine.
While I find Col. Nardieu's statements to be xenophobic and repugnant in the extreme, I don't think there is any doubt that contact with the Gallente helped improve Caldari civilsation, at least at the beginning.
Unfortunately, I have subsequently come to doubt that either race is civilised at all.
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Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party Federal Consensus Outreach
0
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Posted - 2012.02.07 03:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thankyou for your commentary, Mlle Severasse. Your kind of apologetics are exactly what I was critiquing. Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station |
Kaleigh Doyle
Red Skies Enterprises
48
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Posted - 2012.02.07 03:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
It takes an open mind to find common ground with people who originate from a foreign civilization with vastly different ideals than our own. For us to mutually co-exist, a minimal level of understanding for those differences has to be achieved for a lasting peace to endure. Understanding the underpinnings of Amarrian society doesn't mean we share its ideals, or even agree with their practices, it means we are mature enough to respect one another's boundaries to avert open bloodshed. It's called compromise, and it's been the tool of rational people against combative ultra-nationalists for centuries.
While there's no doubt that the Federation and Gallentean culture has much to offer the people of New Eden, it would be folly to pretend that it's without its blemishes. In addition to the three century long conflict against the State, which unfortunately continues to this day, the ever-increasing population of the homeless continues to pervade our society, while matters of national security frequently trample our basic human rights as free people. It is a bleak day for all humanity, when televised executions in front of live audiences are encouraged by the government and applauded by the masses. Is this the vision we wish to share with the remainder of New Eden?
I would hope not.
As founding member and leader of the Progressive Reformist Party, I find your rhetoric both disconcerting and horrendously narrow-minded. Presenting a false-dichotomy of supporting open violence with the Amarr Empire (beyond militas) or supporting slavery and tyranny by maintaining peace with them, is such an absurd over-simplification of the issue that I have to question your general understanding of interstellar politics. I strongly suggest that the Social Democratic Party refuse to play into cheap politics of this kind and maintain their dignity by not responding to this kind of skullduggery.
xoxo |
Graelyn
Amarrian Retribution
211
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Posted - 2012.02.07 04:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:The dream of a universal Federation of humanity, according to those ideals we hold dear has not yet been achieved.
One of the Luminaire Children wish to start a Reclaiming?
That's Adorable! + Cardinal Graelyn + Owner/Operator, "The Summit" YR113 Amarr Loyalist of the Year
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Aquila Shadow
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
5
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Posted - 2012.02.07 05:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
First, the caldari civilisation was definently NOT helped by contact with the federation. infact we had a war about it. Second, did democracy REALLY help the minmatar? there own culture is to different to federation culture that democracy was never going to work with them. They are only now realising it and getting back onto their feet. |
Senn Typhos
Anshar Incorporated
8
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Posted - 2012.02.07 05:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aurelie Severasse wrote:Senn Typhos wrote:Hans Nardieu wrote: Gallentean civilisation has uplifted so many others. No civilisation has been unimproved by contact with our people.
You certainly improved what remains of mine. While I find Col. Nardieu's statements to be xenophobic and repugnant in the extreme, I don't think there is any doubt that contact with the Gallente helped improve Caldari civilsation, at least at the beginning.
I think you misunderstand.
Where I am from, we learn that conflict promotes growth. Strength and discipline are the fruits of overcoming challenges, and without these elements of risk and competition between adversaries, a society cannot grow.
In fact, it was the Federation's genocide and the depletion of the Caldari population that prompted the tube child program, thereby necessitating my existence and that of many productive members of the State. And while the Federation failed in the attempt, their effort to destroy us contributed to their zealous exploration into drone technology as we know it today.
Political parties, in my limited understanding, follow this same logic. The fact that this one's ideology is more aggressive than the Sociocratic variety lends it credence. |
Altarr Orkot
Intaki Security and Intelligence Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
12
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Posted - 2012.02.07 08:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aquila Shadow wrote:First, the caldari civilisation was definently NOT helped by contact with the federation. infact we had a war about it.
Well the Federation did give the Caldari great practice at wide scale subterfuge, treachery and the use self-victimization to justify just about anything. I'd say it helped quite a bit.
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Drasden
Torash Family Holdings
0
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Posted - 2012.02.07 09:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
I will leave out the obvious statements to be made about the the Caldari Prime holocaust, and make the equally as obvious but constantly overlooked one: If you are so intent on liberty, M. Nardieu, then you should likely be focused upon the repression in your own borders.
The Jin-Mei, last I checked, do not share your views. |
Jev North
Ghost Festival Naraka.
37
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Posted - 2012.02.07 11:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Perhaps true. Certainly pointless. The real meat of the issue is, what are you going to do with your newfound cultural superiority? |
Boma Airaken
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
8
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Posted - 2012.02.07 11:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
I suggest you take a look at what you are saying, perhaps modify your statements to be a bit more amicable to the universe at large, lest you attract the attention of those who truly equalize again. |
Aelisha
Nisaba Syndicate NISYN Inc.
4
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Posted - 2012.02.07 13:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Although I agree with Mr Nardieu's sentiment that not all cultures are equal, I do so only with the stipulation that this is a purely subjective and individual assessment. It is a core failure in the Federal senate, that cultural diversity be pursued at the same time as a clearly imperialistic social and economic model.
The superiority-complex at the heart of the Federation has no better voice than the clear, concise and refreshingly honest views expressed by the good Mr Nardieu. It is to be expected and even applauded that any nation would wish to put itself above it's ideological and territorial rivals, always at the expense of those outside of it's borders and frequently at the expense of those 'outsiders' within it's borders.
The problem, however, lies in the fact that the Federation has always used a much more subtle population control policy of apparently inclusive cultural policies that rarely run deeper than the skin in minority provinces and solar systems. The encouragement of global educational policies and a heavy emphasis on revisionist history is most apparent in current educational reforms regarding the Cal-Gal separatist war in even the most esteemed of academic institutions. As capsuleers we are freed from the majority of such retrospective manipulation, but we lack the means by which to counter-act such perversions of historical integrity. This is not to say that the Federation is the only culprit, but it is certainly the most duplicitous of the nations with regards to saying one thing while enacting policy counter to such noble words.
I, as an individual and knowing that I have no political sway in such matters, would posit that should Mr Nardieu's views become the mainstream policy of the Senate, the Federation would become a much more respectable entity for it's honesty, should it allow it's client populations such as the Intaki, Jin-Mei and Mannar the option of secession and the adoption of a trade partnership instead of the current policy of long-term social erosion that is so clearly the core purpose of the Federal government. Any other result would merely maintain the status quo of speak nobly, but act covertly, or confirm the imperial ideals at the heart of this well-meaning but ultimately corrupt institution.
Executor of NISYN Inc CEO of Nisba Syndicate Empire Trader, Industrialist and part-time FC |
Seriphyn Inhonores
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
63
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Posted - 2012.02.07 18:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Firstly, I'd like to point out that the good Chairman here is a Federal Nationalist, and expectations of politically correct statements are fallacy.
Secondly, as Caldari pilots endlessly like to bring up the events from two hundred years ago, I'd point out that the bombardment of Caldari Prime is what the more politically aware of us like to call "extremism". How long did the Ultra-Nationalist government last? Not even a year, which goes to show how long a democratic and pacific Federation can sustain militaristic regimes. Remember, authoritarianism is not organic of the Gallente and Intaki societies. It's like trying to impose democracy on the Caldari, who have had a long history of a bureaucratic authoritarian style of governance. It is inorganic and unnatural of the Caldari.
Thirdly, if the Intaki, Jin-Mei and Mannar should have increased rights, the option to secede, or whatever, so should the people of Luminaire. Last I checked, the capital world of the Federation is Villore IV, and not Gallente Prime. The problem with conservatives or traditionalists is that they like to harp on about the events of yestercentury. Sure, we should learn from our mistakes in history, but basing our entire existence off of the past, like the Caldari do, it's no wonder the Caldari mindset is so inflexible and counter-receptive to change, and it's especially unsurprising that the "forward-looking" nature of Gallente society has made the Federation unmatched in its progressive policies.
The constitutional, legal and political makeup of the Federal government has changed more frequently in ten years, than it has in the Amarr Empire for a thousand. |
Kat Robspierre
Reclamation Technologies Federal Consensus Outreach
6
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Posted - 2012.02.07 19:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Boma Airaken wrote:I suggest you take a look at what you are saying, perhaps modify your statements to be a bit more amicable to the universe at large, lest you attract the attention of those who truly equalize again.
M. Airaken,
Given recent events, your statement causes concern. I hope that you appreciate that Col. Nardieu represents only the views of the FNP, and not the general views of Federal Consensus Outreach.
Any concerns or opinions you have with his politics, we at FCO encourage you to address Col. Nardieu directly, and hopefully peacefully.
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Firstly, I'd like to point out that the good Chairman here is a Federal Nationalist, and expectations of politically correct statements are fallacy.
Secondly, as Caldari pilots endlessly like to bring up the events from two hundred years ago, I'd point out that the bombardment of Caldari Prime is what the more politically aware of us like to call "extremism". How long did the Ultra-Nationalist government last? Not even a year, which goes to show how long a democratic and pacific Federation can sustain militaristic regimes. Remember, authoritarianism is not organic of the Gallente and Intaki societies. It's like trying to impose democracy on the Caldari, who have had a long history of a bureaucratic authoritarian style of governance. It is inorganic and unnatural of the Caldari.
Thirdly, if the Intaki, Jin-Mei and Mannar should have increased rights, the option to secede, or whatever, so should the people of Luminaire. Last I checked, the capital world of the Federation is Villore IV, and not Gallente Prime. The problem with conservatives or traditionalists is that they like to harp on about the events of yestercentury. Sure, we should learn from our mistakes in history, but basing our entire existence off of the past, like the Caldari do, it's no wonder the Caldari mindset is so inflexible and counter-receptive to change, and it's especially unsurprising that the "forward-looking" nature of Gallente society has made the Federation unmatched in its progressive policies.
The constitutional, legal and political makeup of the Federal government has changed more frequently in ten years, than it has in the Amarr Empire for a thousand.
M. Inhonores makes a number of excellent points. Our society is not well suited to authoritarian or militaristic regimes - indeed we are often at a loss when things become static. We thrive on change, and hence encourage other civilizations to enjoy that change as well.
K. Robspierre http://chasingISK.blogspot.com |
Senn Typhos
Anshar Incorporated
8
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Posted - 2012.02.07 20:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote: Secondly, as Caldari pilots endlessly like to bring up the events from two hundred years ago, I'd point out that the bombardment of Caldari Prime is what the more politically aware of us like to call "extremism". How long did the Ultra-Nationalist government last? Not even a year, which goes to show how long a democratic and pacific Federation can sustain militaristic regimes.
We could instead discuss the Federation's POW scandal, if you prefer, since that came to light roughly one year ago. |
Lyn Farel
Extropian Technologies
235
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Posted - 2012.02.07 20:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
I think Mr Nardieu might be surprised the day when the Federation will actually absorb other cultures (or just "touch" them to use the same words) and "improve" them, if such thing is even possible. Much like it is currently the case with the important minmatar native immigrants and citizens that live in the Federation - and have been constantly harassed by Mr Nardieu predecessors in the past.
What people fail to understand is that even a rigid and strict entity such as the Amarr Empire always ends up changed by the assimilation of another culture. Which might not be to the taste of the Federal Nationalist Party. |
Seriphyn Inhonores
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
64
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Posted - 2012.02.07 20:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Senn Typhos wrote:We could instead discuss the Federation's POW scandal, if you prefer, since that came to light roughly one year ago.
As if the Caldari State does a good job of distinguishing "civilian" from "soldier" themselves. I suppose that's what you get when you're bombarded from space by fascists, forcing everyone to pull their own weight in equal fashion.
Anyway, war brings out the worst in human nature, and human nature is not contigent with any culture or society. Inhumane actions occur from all sides in a war. As you just called it, it was a "scandal", as the population went into a moral outcry, believing such behaviour to not be appropiate or acceptable according to Federal ideals. They felt it was not 'organic' behaviour. |
Mammal Tafren
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
15
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Posted - 2012.02.07 21:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kaleigh Doyle wrote: As founding member and leader of the Progressive Reformist Party, I find your rhetoric both disconcerting and horrendously narrow-minded. Presenting a false-dichotomy of supporting open violence with the Amarr Empire (beyond militas) or supporting slavery and tyranny by maintaining peace with them, is such an absurd over-simplification of the issue that I have to question your general understanding of interstellar politics. I strongly suggest that the Social Democratic Party refuse to play into cheap politics of this kind and maintain their dignity by not responding to this skullduggery.
xoxo
Kaleigh,
I feel like the FCO could use a balanced and reasonable individual yourself to counter the voice of the Nationalists, if the organisation is to be a voice for what is good about the Federation. |
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
727
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Posted - 2012.02.07 21:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
I agree with the title of the speech - it's true that not all civilisations are equal.
The actual text of the speech was a pile of tripe though. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
210
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Posted - 2012.02.08 01:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hans Nardieu wrote: Gallentean civilisation has uplifted so many others. No civilisation has been unimproved by contact with our people. The dream of a universal Federation of humanity [...]
The irony of this statement is truly beyond description.
Hans Nardieu wrote: My predecessor in this role warned this chamber many times of the danger posed by the Amarr Empire.
Dangerous because their goals are exactly the bloody same as yours, mate, if your bigoted jingoist spew is anything to go by. Two predators + same desired prey + same feeding/hunting grounds = fight between them.
Whoever wins is of ultimately little concern to the prey, I think...
Hans Nardieu wrote: He said that, alone, among the peoples of New Eden, the Amarr could never be Federated, could never accept the principles outlined in the Articles of Federation.
How do you say "Reclaiming" in Gallentean? And from which part of the Scriptures are you justifying yours? It's exactly the same damned thing, look in a mirror.
Hey, I got a joke for ya, Hansie:
Q: What does a Gallentean nationalist see when he looks in a mirror?
A: God I are kyute kitten! I are in ur mishun! Redoosin' teh lag by ninja'ing ur wrekz! (CCP: Make wrecks probable, and after 30min., tractorable.) |
Barrent Cesaille
Federal Nationalist Party Federal Consensus Outreach
1
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Posted - 2012.02.08 03:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
That joke sounds fairly familiar for some reason.
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Senn Typhos
Anshar Incorporated
8
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Posted - 2012.02.08 06:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Senn Typhos wrote:We could instead discuss the Federation's POW scandal, if you prefer, since that came to light roughly one year ago. As if the Caldari State does a good job of distinguishing "civilian" from "soldier" themselves. I suppose that's what you get when you're bombarded from space by fascists, forcing everyone to pull their own weight in equal fashion. Anyway, war brings out the worst in human nature, and human nature is not contigent with any culture or society. Inhumane actions occur from all sides in a war. As you just called it, it was a "scandal", as the population went into a moral outcry, believing such behaviour to not be appropiate or acceptable according to Federal ideals. They felt it was not 'organic' behaviour.
It is entirely organic behavior, coming from a culture of individualism. In fact, it's nearly inevitable that such behavior will arise under such cultural circumstances. |
Rorin Cutter
Defensores Fidei Curatores Veritatis Alliance
21
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Posted - 2012.02.08 10:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:I agree with the title of the speech - it's true that not all civilisations are equal.
The actual text of the speech was a pile of tripe though.
Very true.
There is no civilization that is equal to the Amarrian civilization.
Always remember, God is watching you. Praise him, and be truly free, slight him and be a slave forever.
Amarr Victor!
-Rorin Cutter
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Khazarn Areth
The Black Pigs The Black Pigs Alliance
85
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Posted - 2012.02.08 10:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
This seems to come across as childish bickering as to who has the better play pen, though both are rather similar underneath the cultural veneer, time will tell gentlemen, time will tell. Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood |
Kentt Em'asep
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
20
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Posted - 2012.02.08 10:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
I agree with Areth on the feeling that some is of the "bickering nature".
To the opening poster's challenge, I'll provide some input, even though I am not much of a verbal man as well. I am also not Gallente of course, but I have lived there for nearly half my life.
I'll be honest, and I hold a very neutral stance on most things.
Their lives are different from those of the Federation. They were brought up from a different history, have different morals, and also hold different beliefs. It will be very hard for them to see the positives of the Federation's view of things such as democracy, "freedom of speech", or slavery. It would be just as hard as any of us who have not lived in the Empire to view their positives of their civilization's structure in their eyes.
With that said, I doubt the values of both the Federation and the Empire can really be sided equally without concidering the positives that both bring from the eyes of each race. To stand in their shoes... or vice-versa. Each would condem the other for how things are done, as easilly seen from some of the responses before mine. Becasue that is how they were raised and brought up in the galaxy. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
20
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Posted - 2012.02.08 14:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Kyoko Sakoda wrote:I would find it hard to believe that a "relativist" (ie. a thoughtful mind) would consider two cultural constructs -- nations, imagined communities -- as being of equal value. After all, isn't that what relativism is? Relativism is a philosophy that says there is no universal right and wrong because everyone has a different point of view. You need universal truths to argue that one society or belief system is superior, therefore some relativists argue that all people, cultures, and points of view are equal.
But some people are idiots.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
455
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
As much as I hate taking the side of the Amarr, Mr. Blake has the gist of it:
Rodj Blake wrote:I agree with the title of the speech - it's true that not all civilisations are equal.
The actual text of the speech was a pile of tripe though.
There is no inherent objective "value" to any civilization or society. Civilizations are indeed not equal, but to say a civilization has more "value" than another is ridiculous. It sounds similar to the reasoning behind the Amarr Reclaiming, honestly. Your wishes of "Federating" other peoples are particularly disturbing.
Extinguishing cultural variety using the argument that you are the best is wrong -- whether it is done by slavery or by imposed democracy. What's next, the Republic needs to be "Federated" as its tribal system is too primitive?
Mr. Nadieu, you walking a very slippery slope. I suggest taking a break to learn the meaning of "hypocrisy". Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers. US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join us. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
210
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Barrent Cesaille wrote:That joke sounds fairly familiar for some reason.
I told it before, the last time some Fed-Nationalist was spewing his self-righteous, condescending bigotry on the IGS, though it was a while ago now.
Funny how these types seem to crawl out of the station sub-basements fairly regularly, eh?
I are kyute kitten! I are in ur mishun! Redoosin' teh lag by ninja'ing ur wrekz! (CCP: Make wrecks probable, and after 30min., tractorable.) |
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