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Malicious Wraith Minmatar The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2007.12.26 19:34:00 - [31] Rollback to RMR : P! ----------------------------------------
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.26 19:48:00 - [32] Originally by: Tarron Sarek If you find enough 'roles' it's much easier, but .. no more sandbox. For those of you that apparently need a refresher course on sandbox gaming, Wikipedia provides a pretty good description: Originally by: Wikipedia A sandbox game (or a video game with an optional sandbox mode) is a video game with an open-ended and non-linear style of gameplay, or a mode of gameplay within a game that is more often played in a goal-directed manner. The sandbox analogy is used to describe this style of gaming because, as with a physical sandbox, the user is simply allowed to do what he or she wishes (with the available game elements and within the limitations of the game engine ù the metaphoric toys within, and boundaries of, the sandbox). So let's review. A sandbox game, such as Eve, has an open-ended and non-linear style of gameplay. You see this in Eve every time you log on. You don't log on and get a message saying, "Now you need to go do this and that and this to progress." The game doesn't spoon feed you where you need to be or what you need to be doing when you are playing. That you get to choose for yourself (and you choose to be directed by an alliance or by a mission agent, so it still applies). That is what Wikipedia continues to say as "the user is simply allowed to do what he or she wishes (with the available game elements and within the limitations of the game engine ù the metaphoric toys within, and boundaries of, the sandbox)". These different classed ships give you different toys to play with in your sandbox. It's like your parents put you in a sandbox to play and give you a shovel and a bucket and maybe a shaped bucket (for making certain looks of sand castles). But perhaps you start using that shovel to start digging deep into the clay under the sand (just trying to think of a stupid example) and your parent sees you and thinks, oh, dear, that shovel wasn't designed for that. So the parent takes away the shovel and gives you one with a shorter handle that won't reach down that far. It's still a sandbox; you can still do whatever you want, but the parent is just trying to keep the toys to their designed role. So, before you start complaining about "roles of ships, no more sandbox", maybe train debate up another couple levels and think about what you are trying to argue before you type it out. -- My sig taken from this site, so thoroughly explains the people I speak with on the forums.
Anubis Xian Vertigo One	Posted - 2007.12.26 21:08:00 - [33] Well if we want no more roles and more sandbox, give my Hel some turret and launcher hardpoints and let me migrate 50% of its armor and hull hp to sheild hp. And give it a booster amount bonus. Then let me build it with an 8/8/2 slot arrangement. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Ryusoath Orillian	Posted - 2007.12.26 22:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Why do the threads that bring up valid points die, while those that are antagonistic and stupid live? too true. so go look at my thread. i left the cheese in the the fridge and the whine in the cellar. The UI thread
Haffrage Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.26 23:02:00 - [35] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Rollback to Castor : P! Much better. And agreed :P T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers \| Eve GUI Tweaks
Mississippi Gunn	Posted - 2007.12.26 23:34:00 - [36] Or you can adapt like everyone has to. So much wasted effort on whining when you can be pew pewing.
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:03:00 - [37] Actually, nerfing some of the overpowered, cookie cutter setups that everyone uses -because they are so much more effective than other setups - can only serve to increase diversity as you have to be imaginitive rather than follow the formula. Just another nano ship is not a stride towards diversity in pvp. ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
Impee The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:09:00 - [38] Originally by: Sinder Ohm Originally by: Vaal Erit Edited by: Vaal Erit on 26/12/2007 06:07:52 edit Speed nerf on dictors has been commented on by the devs, T2 ships are very specialized ships and the role of interdictors is to drop a bubble and die, not kill interceptors or be untouchable(which they weren't before but oh well) edit How has Eve been dumbed down exactly? Please gives examples. Because one of the biggest nerf in trinity was the rsd nerf and that made eve smarter, not dumber. Before trinity you could slap on 3 damps and laugh at your enemies 8km lock range and 50+ second lock time. Now you have more freedom, two ways to fit your rsd ship and fight, not just a solowtfpwnmobile. Second nerf in trinity was drones, but not really a nerf, I don't see how a slightly smaller drone bay for a myrm kills the game. Whiners like you that can't play the game should stay off the forums and whine to your computer screen, just do what you do now just don't click on Post Thread ever, ever again. Dictor nerf was unneeded you obviously dont fly 1 Mr nobody and show your ******* alliance ticker I hate argueing with a nobody. Dictors now suck hairy donkey balls and fly slower than t2 cruisers thats ok though isnt it!!?? Just wait untill they nerf your fav ship fanboy and see how much you love CCP. meh I'm Amarr. All of my favorites ships come pre-nerfed :)
Malicious Wraith Minmatar The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:11:00 - [39] Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 27/12/2007 02:12:13 Originally by: Angel DeMorphis ... Your analogy is incorrect. The shovel is not your ship, its the physical properties of the sand. When you restrict what your sand can do, limiting its usefulness to only certain applications, you are slowly making the "Sandbox" an "Amusement park". Your "Shovel" is your method of interacting with the game. The sand is what the game is composed of, and the thing that you interact with. "Haxxing" and "Glichtzoring" are examples of the "Shovel" being used wrong. Throwing the sand that you pised on at the other kiddies using the shovel, and then your parents stopping you from pising on the sand, is probably a more correct analogy to the situation. ----------------------------------------
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.27 03:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama Actually, nerfing some of the overpowered, cookie cutter setups that everyone uses -because they are so much more effective than other setups - can only serve to increase diversity as you have to be imaginitive rather than follow the formula. Just another nano ship is not a stride towards diversity in pvp. Truth. I see so many whines about EVE having it's options narrowed and how smart players should be rewarded for their set-ups. To the first having a set-up/ship/tactic that is generally superior to all others is what narrows options, balance broadens options by ensuring that multiple choices are approximately equal while remaining different. To the second, you can be sure the first few dozen people to actually come up with superior set-ups have benefit from them for a long time. Those who learned from them also. Sadly those who took the cookie cutter set-up after it had been common knowledge for months and decided to invest in it aren't going to get as much value from it before it is nerfed. When a "unique" "clever" "out-of-the-box" set-up becomes the new standard it is often time to dispose of it. Especially when counters to it are excessively limited or it's benefits cannot be matched by any other set-up developed at that time. When a tactic is developed that powerfully abuses developer oversight or quirks of game mechanics then it should not be permitted to exist nearly as long as many such tactics do. When it comes to nano's I'm one of the few who firmly believe that nothing should be able to completely outrun light missiles and light drones. Speed-tanking should provide damage reduction not damage immunity. Many of the reasons I hear for why nano-tactics are fine strike me as similar to someone trying to defend a module that provides infinite warpcore strength and 100% resists by claiming that if you neut them enough the module will shut down. Game balance is about making sure everything is approximately equal while remaining different. It's an impossible task. It is a process that requires constant tweaking and it is evidently a thankless one. I for one would rather not have a game where certain roles are dominated by a single optimal choice of ship and fit. Once you reach that point you may as well remove the other ships from the game and have the optimal choices come with the optimal fit built in.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.27 03:17:00 - [41] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis It's like your parents put you in a sandbox to play and give you a shovel and a bucket and maybe a shaped bucket (for making certain looks of sand castles). But perhaps you start using that shovel to start digging deep into the clay under the sand (just trying to think of a stupid example) and your parent sees you and thinks, oh, dear, that shovel wasn't designed for that. So the parent takes away the shovel and gives you one with a shorter handle that won't reach down that far. It's still a sandbox; you can still do whatever you want, but the parent is just trying to keep the toys to their designed role. That is an excellent analogy. A sandbox is not defined by the color of the sand or length of the shovel handle. It is defined as being a play area where you set your own goals instead of being handed an obvious "correct" method of play. Should I decide to dye all the sand blue it is still sand, it is still in a sandbox, you can still use it as you see fit to achieve whatever goals you may have. You simply have to do so within the limits of the sandbox. In this case in blue. The only way EVE will stop being a sandbox is if it is given a clearly defined path of progression from the beginning to the end with goals for us to achieve as laid out by the developers along the way. This entire concept has absolutely nothing to do with the limitations or options within the sandbox. In a sandbox there is typically only one type of sand. The word is used to define the nature of play, not the variety of toys. tl;dr: Sandbox is not a word that typically belongs within balance discussions.
Malicious Wraith Minmatar The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2007.12.29 01:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf That is an excellent analogy. No, it isnt. See above. ----------------------------------------
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.29 20:30:00 - [43] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf That is an excellent analogy. No, it isnt. See above. I read you post, I simply disregarded it due to the fact that you fail to understand what sandbox means in gaming terms.
Thornat	Posted - 2007.12.29 21:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Malicious Wraith Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 25/12/2007 16:49:49 EvE Online is a game where you are meant to go out of the box, provide creative freedom, functional option, tradeoffs and the ability to be "surprised" by the extreme deviation of norm, that may very well become the norm due to its effectiveness, when it comes to ships, and just about anything that you do. Says you No offense, for a moment you had me interested but if there is one thing I can't stand is when some random player states his opinion as some undisputable fact that we should all just accept. Hopefully you don't take this too personaly but you don't get to decide for everyone what EVE IS!! If there was any such person it would be the people who created it, CCP... That my friend is an undisputable fact. This is NOT your game, end of story. With that said, I do share in the opinion that Eve SHOULD be a game about 'creative freedom, functional option, tradeoffs and the ability to be "surprised" by the extreme deviation of norm'. Its unfortuante that CCP does not share in this opinion. It would appear with their latest changes that EVE is ment to be a game about a large variety of choices which don't nescessarly lock you in (as you can train in anything) but are extremly limited in their scope when it comes to concievably 'good' choices. While you can fit an Enyo anyway you like there are only 1 or 2 worthy choices and anyone who doesn't fit them in this way is simply uninformed flying in a substandard setup. My opinion is that hopefully the day will come when our 'opinions' carry more weight with CCP then they currently do but unfortuntatly as it stands right now CCP has far to many designers who see Eve as 'their game' and could careless about the opinions of their fan base. CCP, like many game publishers, won't change their policy of 'we do it our way' until the player base finaly begins to leave and as it stands that is not happening and while CCP misinterprets this as 'we have made the right choices' the truth is that its more about the fact that they have overal created a game we love, but are slowly patching it to oblivion. I can only site examples like Star Wars galaxies which was a wonderful game destroyed by the developers and its miserable failure is the result of game developers who don't listen.
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.12.29 21:36:00 - [45] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis If your play style is so significantly better than your peers so that your peers are forced to adopt your play style (or only play as a direct counter to your play style) in order to succeed you are removing diversity from the game.
Malicious Wraith Minmatar The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2008.01.01 04:54:00 - [46] Originally by: J Valkor Edited by: J Valkor on 29/12/2007 21:37:55 Originally by: Angel DeMorphis If your play style is so significantly better than your peers so that your peers are forced to adopt your play style (or only play as a direct counter to your play style) in order to succeed you are removing diversity from the game. Saying that the Devs do not listen to the player base is insane. There any number of examples of players who go through the proper channels having their ideas be used in the game. There are players who do favors for CCP that receive actually cool compensation back. Just because you post a billion whine threads in all of the wrong forum channels does not mean you will be listened to. Ships being better then others is not the topic of the discussion. Its ships being limited to certain roles they were intended to fill. Im an advocate of nerfing unbalanced things. ----------------------------------------
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.01.01 05:35:00 - [47] New? _______________________________ Complex Fullerene Shards; why God? :\|
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2008.01.01 08:56:00 - [48] Originally by: Sinder Ohm Originally by: Vaal Erit Edited by: Vaal Erit on 26/12/2007 06:07:52 edit Speed nerf on dictors has been commented on by the devs, T2 ships are very specialized ships and the role of interdictors is to drop a bubble and die, not kill interceptors or be untouchable(which they weren't before but oh well) edit How has Eve been dumbed down exactly? Please gives examples. Because one of the biggest nerf in trinity was the rsd nerf and that made eve smarter, not dumber. Before trinity you could slap on 3 damps and laugh at your enemies 8km lock range and 50+ second lock time. Now you have more freedom, two ways to fit your rsd ship and fight, not just a solowtfpwnmobile. Second nerf in trinity was drones, but not really a nerf, I don't see how a slightly smaller drone bay for a myrm kills the game. Whiners like you that can't play the game should stay off the forums and whine to your computer screen, just do what you do now just don't click on Post Thread ever, ever again. Dictor nerf was unneeded you obviously dont fly 1 Mr nobody and show your ******* alliance ticker I hate argueing with a nobody. Dictors now suck hairy donkey balls and fly slower than t2 cruisers thats ok though isnt it!!?? Just wait untill they nerf your fav ship fanboy and see how much you love CCP. meh As i learnt with the recent nightmare nerf, sorry, "Changes" CCP will nerf, boost, nerf and boost in strange ways. If that affects me? well crap! but things like speed, affects EVERY PLAYER PLAYING THE GAME regardless of what they are doing bar a short few whom are the exceptions that prove the rule (or whatever). Speed is a counter to every weapon system, and when a ship can use speed to such an advantage it can nullify damage from pretty much any source, AND STILL perform ITS INTENDED ROLE pretty much unaffected, then yes...i think its very fair that something is tweaked there to give every other ship chasing it a chance to get it. Interdictors, not INTERCEPTORS, if CCP Intended us to be flying around at 5km/s dropping bubbles i'm pretty sure they wouldn't have made the 2 different classes, would they? Welcome to EvE
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.01 11:41:00 - [49] Originally by: Blane Xero Interdictors, not INTERCEPTORS, if CCP Intended us to be flying around at 5km/s dropping bubbles i'm pretty sure they wouldn't have made the 2 different classes, would they? Yea, yea... and the "intended role" of afterburners was speed tanking. Now that worked out well, didn't it? --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
SS HITARN Amarr HARDC0RE	Posted - 2008.01.01 12:21:00 - [50] I agree with the OP, Take the sandbox analogy, CCP fill a giant sandbox with 100Æs of toys then throw in a group of kids to ôplayö with them. After a while they notice that only a small percentage of the toys are played with, leaving a large percentage gathering dust. So what do they do to try and address the problem? They ôbalanceö the toys but instead of making the other toys more interesting, they make the popular toys less interesting. This has the desired effect, but the mood in the sandbox changed and is less exciting more mainstream. I wonder how the mood would have changed if they made the less popular toys more interesting?
Melor Rend	Posted - 2008.01.01 13:26:00 - [51] Originally by: SS HITARN I agree with the OP, Take the sandbox analogy, CCP fill a giant sandbox with 100Æs of toys then throw in a group of kids to ôplayö with them. After a while they notice that only a small percentage of the toys are played with, leaving a large percentage gathering dust. So what do they do to try and address the problem? They ôbalanceö the toys but instead of making the other toys more interesting, they make the popular toys less interesting. This has the desired effect, but the mood in the sandbox changed and is less exciting more mainstream. I wonder how the mood would have changed if they made the less popular toys more interesting? Thats why it's called a nerfbat and not a boostbat... but I actually totally agree with you. Better to boost then to nerf whenever possible. However I still think speed is overpowered and should be nerfed to some extent... maybe a nerf to speed and a small boost to some sort of tackling system so you nanof... i mean nano pilots () still have viable speed tanks without being invul. I can understand why the nano pilots are scared though... CCP has shown in the past that they don't have a very "fine hand" when it comes to wielding the nerfbat.. often things get a little to "overnerfed". I can only hope that CCP really "balances" speed to bring it up to a same level as other "tanks" and don't just gimp it to uselessness.
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.01.01 14:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Plaetean Glad to see I'm not the only one who is disappointed to see this game getting more and more simplified with every patch. i thought it was the other way around, game was alot better before pos. I think it was best just as pos came in, when people were only just starting to use them, now it's just over the top. ---
SS HITARN Amarr HARDC0RE	Posted - 2008.01.01 14:23:00 - [53] Originally by: Melor Rend Valid points about nano ships. To make a Nano ship really effective you have to invest a lot of ISK in Mods, Implants and hardwires, now the risk V's reward has taken effect. Now lets have a system that allows a counter to that speed with equal investment. Web's counter speed effectively if you get a lock on the nano ship before he presses his MWD, so we should begin there and invent a decent counter attack. So were not making the fast toy less exciting were boosting another toy to counter itÆs effectiveness adding to the enjoyment of the sand box. Of course this escalate out of proportion if not applied correctly, but the nano toy is still fun, but now there is a new toy it has to avoid to stay effective
Nexus Kinnon Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.01.01 14:33:00 - [54] Originally by: Anubis Xian As for the speed nerf, no ship should go more than 10x its own base speed. why not?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.02 08:57:00 - [55] Originally by: Nexus Kinnon Originally by: Anubis Xian As for the speed nerf, no ship should go more than 10x its own base speed. why not? Because there are 3 other races except minmatar that also want to play? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice

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