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Last Starfighter
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Posted - 2004.03.18 10:29:00 -
[91]
 Quote:
I do believe most stock setups are going to run into massive CPU issues now, most every setup I can think of for my Raven now will most undoubtedly require a cpu upgrade module.
yeah most of the configs I've come up for my Raven involve CPU + PDUs in lowslots and switching out a hardener for a Heavy Cap Booster in the mids. I wonder if I can pursuade any indy pilots to drop cap booster 800 for me mid battle. That or orbit a giant can full of the stuff :)
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Grut
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Posted - 2004.03.18 10:31:00 -
[92]
As far as i can see the only problem with cprs was that apocs could captank to crazy levels, stick a stacking nerf on cprs that begins around the 6th module and this is fixed without messing with every other ship in the game.
With this change everythings gonna invert, scorps become captanks  , everyone goes with armour hardening and amarr endup worse then ever.
On second thoughts i've already got my ravens cfg sorted and its ebil so nerf away.............
Mostly harmless |
Lipton
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Posted - 2004.03.18 10:42:00 -
[93]
Tnx Levin 
Good points all of em...
I'd say about the same if only i could be bottomed to hammer my keyboard for as long as u did...
The 4 Tier 2 Battleships is at a draw if piloted/setup good...
And as far as the Apoc Being _ber, sure... Hard to Kill when sheildtanked, but when u sheildtank u really cant do to good damage.
So it's either damage or tanking...
nuf said...
*trying to get onto chaos to get a new setup working*
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What? |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.03.18 10:47:00 -
[94]
Quote:
The 4 Tier 2 Battleships is at a draw if piloted/setup good...
And as far as the Apoc Being _ber, sure... Hard to Kill when sheildtanked, but when u sheildtank u really cant do to good damage.
So it's either damage or tanking...
nuf said...
*trying to get onto chaos to get a new setup working*
Uhm, cap relays use 4tf and 1mw of powergrid, around 3tf with skills, how does that cripple your offense in ANY way???
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Lipton
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Posted - 2004.03.18 11:02:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Lipton on 18/03/2004 11:06:50
Edited by: Lipton on 18/03/2004 11:06:10
 Gotcha Jim...
What i was meaning was: if yer gonna do a proper sheildtanking on a Apoc u need to fit 7 cprlys leaving no room for dmg mods...
And if ya fit 7 of em u cant fit more than 4 Tachy's or 5 Mega's...
And really... Lasers Aint that good right now (diff thread )
Just ment that u cant really have both...
Edit: And... Yeah... of course... i f ya mount proj's or something instead... But I'm looking at it from my point of view and i'm just using Lasers...
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What? |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.03.18 11:17:00 -
[96]
people, people, people..
You have to expect a certain amount of whining when an 'easy' gets fixed.
the problem with CPR's, is that they detract from your shields to improve your cap. People then use this cap to power shield boosters.
This was not intended.
This only really affect amarr pilots that want to shield tank. And anyone that thinks amarr shield tanks were intended is free to complain as much as they want.
as for amarrs being able to shield/armor tank and *still* do max damage/fit 8 of the biggest guns is tripin'
tanking *should* cost you in terms of damage dealt. At the moment, amarr pilots can get the best of both worlds (8xhybrids + 24hr tanking ability).
.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.03.18 11:17:00 -
[97]
Quote:
*snip* But I'm looking at it from my point of view *snip*
think that about somes up the thinking of the people that are against this change
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.03.18 11:29:00 -
[98]
It would be nice if we could get those 350mm Railguns, which we were supposed to get last patch, as they have lower CPU requirements, that would help..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Lucre
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Posted - 2004.03.18 11:46:00 -
[99]
Quote:
Dalman don't ye think it was kinda wrong than an apoc with 5+ cap relays could run its shield stuff forever AND maintain maximum dmg output by fitting lots of hybrids? I mean aren't you supposed to trade dmg if you get survivability?
So what you're saying is that hybrids do too much damage relative to lasers (or lasers do too little) as they let you maintain damage output but use far less cap?
I think several of us have been saying this for a while now...
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Mirial
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Posted - 2004.03.18 11:51:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Mirial on 18/03/2004 11:55:40
Have people looked beyond just Apoc shield tankers?
Have you noticed that many of the Amarr that are against this change are laser users and not hybrid/projectile users trying to get the best of both worlds? These are the Amarr that are trying to be in character by using lasers, not switching to hybrids like more and more Apoc users are doing.
The point is that with lasers in their current state, armor tanking requiring low slots, and the Amarr deficiency of medium slots, how is an Amarr ship to power an armament of lasers? I'm not talking about trying to fit 8 Tachs or anything as ridiculous as that but actually usable reasonable laser setups that leave the ship somewhat competitive in combat. The only real option I see right now is using cap booster charges, but how is that really different from basically making lasers use ammo (removing the "advantage" of ammo-less lasers)?
Replies saying "adapt" or don't use lasers don't address the problem and only show there is a problem with lasers or the proposed cap relay change if lasers become unfeasible to use on Amarr ships.
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2004.03.18 12:11:00 -
[101]
Problem: You can't sustain lasers and armor tank at the same time.
Solution: Swap med slot Large Shield Booster with Cap Recharger I or II and one cap relay in low slot with an Armor Repairer. Fit the rest of low slots w cap relays.
Problem solved.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2004.03.18 12:14:00 -
[102]
Quote:
This was not intended.
This only really affect amarr pilots that want to shield tank. And anyone that thinks amarr shield tanks were intended is free to complain as much as they want.
as for amarrs being able to shield/armor tank and *still* do max damage/fit 8 of the biggest guns is tripin'
tanking *should* cost you in terms of damage dealt. At the moment, amarr pilots can get the best of both worlds (8xhybrids + 24hr tanking ability).
Ok, how do you know how this mod was "intended"?
The only people this will effect are Amarr pilots? This will be a pretty radical change for the Caldari too and what about blasterthrons? The Minmatar need the relays for their ships too. This change will efect ALL ships.
As far as being able to fit all the biggest guns I don't see why not. If the Raven is the biggest baddest ship the caldari make why can't it fit the biggest baddest guns/launchers? A super tanked Apoc CAN'T fit 8 hybrids and besides that apoc pilots in question fit 1400s not hybrids, since hybrids kind of suck anyway. If you aren't getting a bonus then the 1400 is a much better gun than a 425. To fit 8 guns on an apoc you have to use some lows for power mods, balancing the cap since you have to give up come cap to gain grid. So even on an apoc, shield tanking already costs you in damage since you have to give up the bigger guns or give up tanking ability.
What is wrong with "easy" every setup is "easy".
*puts on his thinking cap*
Hmm.. let me think I fly a raven, wonder what guns I should use... Gee I get a hybrid bonus, guess I should use those. Oh, 6 launchers? A bonus to launcher speed? This looks like a missile boat, I think I'll fit missile launchers. Wow, 6 mids... looks like I can make a nice shield tank out of this. Oh, 5 lows? not too much room there for armor tanking, looks like my only choice is shields. Hmm... I need to run 4 hybrids and a X-LG booster and a bunch of hardeners, I really need cap, good thing I got these relays...
See? its easy.
How about a megathron. Hmm.. 7 turrets, looks like a gunship, bonuses to damage and tracking speed on hybrids? That would work great with blasters. Oh, wow, HUGE drone space, even better for close up. Oh, few mids, looks like I have to depend on this shield booster because I don't have any room to tank out much since IÆm using this MWD and a warp scrambler. Good thing I have all these lowslots for cap relays so I can survive the MWD trip to the target and still be able to boost my weakened shield.
Again, easy
Both of these setups DIE, however both are capable of killing. It depends on the situation and the pilots skills, as it should. When I say skills I donÆt mean look at the character sheet, I mean the guy moving the mouse. PvP is NOT a stroll in the park, you have to watch or you die, that is true of any setup, even a super tank.
If they change the cap relays we will just find another mod that is the next best thing, basically they make the cap relay useless when it is used in its intended way. I think that this is the intended use of the cap relay. You fit the module knowing it makes your recharge rate terrible but since you are gaining cap recharge its no big deal because you can boost shields with a big booster. It's just a good mod all around, so what if it doesnÆt have a big disadvantage? Why should it? The whole idea of fitting modules is to make your ship do what you want/need it to do. Cap relays let us do that but we have to give up precious lowslots to get it, A damage mod and a sensor boost would be great in the lows on my raven, I give up that extra damage and targeting ability to gain defense ability.
Again, TomB PLESE DON'T CHANGE WHAT DOES NOT NEED CHANGED
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<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2004.03.18 12:20:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 18/03/2004 12:27:14
EDIT: Double Post 
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<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.03.18 12:23:00 -
[104]
Bad idea, making a bad situation worse.
Amarr ships are already low on midslots - so I guess they can now forget about using any the most powerful tracking, sensor boosting, jamming or ECCM modules. Meanwhile *still* not having enough power to use lasers properly (not that they should bother as has been repeatedly pointed out a railgun does comparable range/damage to a megabeam for (even with Amarr bonuses) a fraction of the cap). So even more Amarr ships will move to railguns which should *not* be what system changes should be encouraging.
Nor does this change even slightly correct the other half of this problem - shield recharge being a useless attribute. Changing the cap relay to have a meaningful penalty does nothing to solve this issue (nor to make any number of shield flux modules remotely worthwhile in use).
How about cutting laser cap use by 25% and introducing a low slot cap recharger at say 15% (needs to be better enough than power diagnostic to be worthwhile) but no penalties (except comparable fitting reqs to PDU). Whilst giving the 20% (or better?) cap power relay Is the shield boost and/or shield strength penalty. So if you wanted the raw power for offence, you could have it, but at the price of defence.
That and/or (as others have frequently suggested) doubling, trebling or more shield recharge rate so it's fast enough to actually be relevant in combat.
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fras
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Posted - 2004.03.18 12:33:00 -
[105]
I think this affects all races similarly as regards tanking (probably minmatar the least), but I do agree with people talking about lasers. Cap relays are essential to actually run lasers on not just battleships but cruisers aswell. Omens and Mallers have fewer low and mid slots to play with than their BS counterparts and imo they are already the worst race line for pvp cruisers. I'm sure people could come up with a compromised setup which actually has some defenses - but my guess is it's going to be much more compromised than any other race' cruiser would be.
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Lipton
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Posted - 2004.03.18 12:50:00 -
[106]
Quote:
Quote:
*snip* But I'm looking at it from my point of view *snip*
think that about somes up the thinking of the people that are against this change
*yawn*
_______________________________________________
What? |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.03.18 12:54:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 18/03/2004 12:56:51
Personally, I'm against this move - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
As things stand, armour tanking is still less viable than shield tanking because damage leaks through to structure once the armour has been reduced to 25% and its very difficult to repair armour at the same rate as shields.
Also, it's very hard to keep lasers running for any period of time without using relays, batteries or cap boosters. Batteries and boosters are not always a viable option on Amarr ships because they use up the valuable mid-slots. I'm not just talking about the battleships here, it applies to all Amarr ships.
So if we must have useless relays, can we also have:
a) lower cap usage for lasers (on top of the variable changes recently introduced).
b) XL Armor Repairers.
Also, have other options been considered to make relays less effective - ie heat sink style stacking penalties, lower bonus, increased cpu/power reqs etc?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Andvari
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Posted - 2004.03.18 12:56:00 -
[108]
First of all, I have to agree with Levin: if it isn't broken, don't fix it.
I truly fail to see why so many people think that CPRs are "overpowered". Just sounds like people whining that they can't kill a battleship in a 1v1 fight, because of shield/cap tanking; which is just ridiculous. Battleships are the backbone of any fleet. They are supposed to be hard to kill.
And anyone who seriously believes that the current CPR attributes make battleships way too powerful either doesn't understand real tactics or wants to ignore them. At the moment, any of the battleships, in the right hands, are equal. Well, what happens when you have equal forces facing off against eachother? They have to think, be creative, try to concieve how they can get the advantage over an enemy just as strong as they are. If CPRs were nerfed, would they still have to do these things? Absolutely. Nerfing a mod in game won't nerf the minds of the players; however, my point is that the current system isn't "broken" it never was, never will be.
The people that are complaining about "easy" setups have no valid point whatsoever. Take away CPRs and something else will fill that hole, and we'll have people complaining about "easy" setups all over again. The fact of the matter is that no matter what you change, each ship in the game will have a setup that is "easy", that is a "no brainer". If a setup works, why break it just to appease people who think it's "too powerful".
And finally, I want to know why CCP is changing something that's not broken, has been in the game for almost a year, when there are things that are advertised on the retail box and in the booklet that I've not even seen mentioned except as a "maybe later" in a Dev Chat. Or how about things recently introduced that are broken (see: Station Interfaces)? Why are we talking about changing one module that works when there are so many other things that are much more important to be changing/fixing? Can someone tell me why?
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Andvari
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Posted - 2004.03.18 13:18:00 -
[109]
Also in response to people that claim that armor tanking will become more viable: Every single time I've armor tanked a battleship and gone 1v1, I was beaten into next week. Armor tanking sucks, period. Why? It's not the armor hardeners, it's not the armor plating, it's actually the fact that the armor repairers repair at the end of their cycle, take VERY LONG to cycle, and use a huge ammount of cap to do so. Armor repairers would work fine if I was psychic and could predict when I was about to take a lot of damage so I could activate my repairer in time to repair the damage just as I've taken it. Even if I attempted to make a lucky guess and time it correctly I'd have the risk of wasting the large amount of cap, which would further put me at a disadvantage, as once my cap ran out, all my modules would turn off and I'd be easy pickings for whoever I was fighting while I waited for my cap to recharge.
To everyone who's posted saying "this change won't affect me." If it won't affect you, then why are you posting here just to say that??? Go post about something that will affect you and stop wasting everyone else's time. Thank you.
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Toulak
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Posted - 2004.03.18 13:27:00 -
[110]
/me looks at the new changes.
/me looks at his scorp.
WTS Scorpion!
/me gets into his apoc.
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Alexander Rahl
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Posted - 2004.03.18 13:30:00 -
[111]
Hmm. Does anyone want to bet that TomB uses a tempest with 1400,s. Its the only ship that hasnt been drastically affected by all the recent changes including this proposed insanity with the cap power relays.
----/ / /-----<[]>-----\ \ \----
Head of House Rahl
Warleader of the Rahl Clans
"Death and Glory, Honour with Courage, Fury and Vengeance"
- Chronicles of Rahl. |
Ukiah
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Posted - 2004.03.18 13:45:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Ukiah on 18/03/2004 13:51:08
Quote:
Why are we talking about changing one module that works when there are so many other things that are much more important to be changing/fixing? Can someone tell me why?
Sure, I can tell you why...
There was SUCH a good subscriber solution to the 'Cap Power Relay' problem, and I use that term loosely, that I'm surprised it wasn't used. Someone suggested *gasp* actually making the shield recharge rate MEAN something by having shield boosters boost by a percentage of the shield recharge rate, ie the lower your shield recharge rate, the better you get when activating a shield booster.
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Wadenbeisser
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Posted - 2004.03.18 14:34:00 -
[113]
Quote:
Basic Cap Recharger:
Capacitor Recharge Bonus: +10% (was 5%)
Cap Recharger I:
Capacitor Recharge Bonus: +15% (was 10%)
Meta modules (named rare drop modules) have also been updated with these changes, giving the best Meta Cap Recharger 18% bonus to capacitor recharge rate.
So what will the Cap Reacharger II then have??
20 % recharge rate..or did you just forget it :P
;)
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.03.18 14:43:00 -
[114]
Quote:
/me looks at the new changes.
/me looks at his scorp.
WTS Scorpion!
/me gets into his apoc.
If you really-really want to tank,
1 XL shield booster
1 Heavy cap booster w/ 800 charges
1 cap relay
Pick the rest of your slots. Problem solved. It's not as ³ber as it is with 4 cap relays and 1 heavy cap booster, of course...
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.03.18 15:14:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 19/03/2004 11:19:11
tihi, secret! 
"We brake for nobody"
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Doppleganger
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Posted - 2004.03.18 15:47:00 -
[116]
I cant belive how many ppl complain before they have even tried the new stats on the cap relay or has everyone that has posted complaining done that?
For once I agree with Jim.... adapt.... when life gives you lemons make lemonade. Almost everytime Tomb has proposed changes so many ppl say its going to ruin the game, granted his changes aren't always the best but I dont know if they have ruined the game yet.
I have faith in the eve gaming pvper that most will quickly find the new uber setup for killing in a week or 2 max. History has shown this to be true more times then not. 
*runs for his flame proof suit*
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.03.18 15:55:00 -
[117]
Levin, this change doesn't affect everyone. not even close.
It affects people that want to shield tank. And that's it.
I have a mega, and these changes don't make a shred of difference, a megathron was not designed to be a shield tank.
I can armor tank it and still rip people in two on chaos.
Blasterthrons don't need a set of CPR's. They need a good pilot. I never stacked my lowslots with CPR's on my blasterthrons, and they did just fine. And even if you *DID* have a stack of CPR's, it wouldn't make any difference to a CR blaster setup, as shield tanking is not an option for such a ship, and anyone setting up a proper CR ship would drop the sheild booster like a rotting corpse.
And again, they do *NOT* affect amarr laser users. They affect Amarr laser users that want to shield tank.
Seriously, pay attention here: The only penalty is to *shield boost per activation*
The fact that everyone thinks they need a shield booster is *not* a good enough reason to unnerf CPR's.
Too many people in this thread are providing worst-case scenarios to bolster their opinions, but frankly, it's not working.
If you can't set up a ship without 5-7 CPR's that will be worth using, then you need more practice at fitting ships, or maybe more practice using them.
.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.03.18 15:57:00 -
[118]
Quote:
I cant belive how many ppl complain before they have even tried the new stats on the cap relay or has everyone that has posted complaining done that?
For once I agree with Jim.... adapt.... when life gives you lemons make lemonade. Almost everytime Tomb has proposed changes so many ppl say its going to ruin the game, granted his changes aren't always the best but I dont know if they have ruined the game yet.
I have faith in the eve gaming pvper that most will quickly find the new uber setup for killing in a week or 2 max. History has shown this to be true more times then not.
*runs for his flame proof suit*
the people complaining are *not* the people that devise the 'uber-setups', they're the people who copy those people
.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.03.18 16:25:00 -
[119]
Edited by: j0sephine on 18/03/2004 16:27:06
"There was SUCH a good subscriber solution to the 'Cap Power Relay' problem, and I use that term loosely, that I'm surprised it wasn't used. Someone suggested *gasp* actually making the shield recharge rate MEAN something by having shield boosters boost by a percentage of the shield recharge rate, ie the lower your shield recharge rate, the better you get when activating a shield booster."
... That's exactly what you get with those new changes. Just think about it:
* base shield recharge rate: ~nil
* shield recharge with shield booster running: +80 hp/sec per booster
* shield amplifier: increases the improved shield recharge achieved with shield booster
* the 'new' cap relay: reduces shield recharge achieved with shield booster
The only difference from suggested change is the name of the affected attribute, "shield boost" vs "shield recharge" The end result is identical.
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2004.03.18 16:30:00 -
[120]
Looks like its in then. The relay desription has changed to mention "shield" which has been confirmed on TQ. But its attributes still say -25% shield recharge..does it hit both now?
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