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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.04.06 05:17:00 -
[301]
archangel sean, you're wrong. CPR are very imbalancing.
The benefit of stacking the bonuses that CPR give simply wasn't intended. It was meant to have a drawback, that is why CCP put a negative statistic on CPRs, the problem is the negative side to CPRs is meaningless, because shield recharge is not a vital statstic, nor do you benefit from lowering it, as its base recharge is way too high to lower to a point where it is becomes helpful shield regeneration.
The drawback to using CPR right now, simply doesn't exist in any realistic fashion, thus a change is needed.
The argument of "anyone can use CPR therefore it's okay" is another invalid argument. Everyone can use CPR yes, but not every ship has the same number of lowslots. Apocalypses simply weren't intended to have 7,200 cap and 120 second recharge rates, sorry but they weren't. Everyone could use turret dmg mods too, but we saw how awful PvP used to be on ships that could stack them like crazy and achieve insane damage output, would you not agree that was very imbalancing as well?
There are alternatives to CPR, and maybe they're not as effective, but quite frankly, CPR were never meant to be as effective as they are to begin with.
Adapt.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Nafri
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Posted - 2004.04.06 11:01:00 -
[302]
yeah but no its the fashion to use armor tanked ravens on Chaos, 6x Cap Rechargers in the midslots and the low used for Wards and Repairs is a Awfull setup without cap problems. It even helps you CPU a bit since you use only 3wards now 
Wanna fly with me?
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Eight
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Posted - 2004.04.06 11:16:00 -
[303]
Update:
The changes have been on chaos for a little while now (though for a moment they weren't set properly), and will be going to TQ with the next update (I have no information as to when that will be).
~Eight |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.04.06 11:26:00 -
[304]
 Quote:
yeah but no its the fashion to use armor tanked ravens on Chaos, 6x Cap Rechargers in the midslots and the low used for Wards and Repairs is a Awfull setup without cap problems. It even helps you CPU a bit since you use only 3wards now
yes i dont think the medium slot cap rechargers should be so strong, i'd leave them as they are, i'd hate to see people swap their cap relays for cap rechargers and get uber cap recharge and be in the same boat again, with armor tanking owning all.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Raknor
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Posted - 2004.04.06 11:43:00 -
[305]
Quote:
Update:
The changes have been on chaos for a little while now (though for a moment they weren't set properly), and will be going to TQ with the next update (I have no information as to when that will be).
CPR's were unbalancing but the current changes seem to cause more problems then they solve as this thread has pointed out. Hopefully this is simply a temp fix tell Shiva and the needed issue of Shield Recharge meaning nothing is addressed there but I wont keep my fingers crossed.
May your gunĘs strike truth into those who wish to oppress it. |
Nafri
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Posted - 2004.04.06 12:18:00 -
[306]
Quote:
Quote:
yeah but no its the fashion to use armor tanked ravens on Chaos, 6x Cap Rechargers in the midslots and the low used for Wards and Repairs is a Awfull setup without cap problems. It even helps you CPU a bit since you use only 3wards now
yes i dont think the medium slot cap rechargers should be so strong, i'd leave them as they are, i'd hate to see people swap their cap relays for cap rechargers and get uber cap recharge and be in the same boat again, with armor tanking owning all.
well i get a even better raven tank now, armor Tanking works for a very long time and i have crappy armor tank skillz 
Wanna fly with me?
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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2004.04.06 23:52:00 -
[307]
The main thing with armor tanking a raven is the restrictions on lows. You pretty much have to use all 5 lows, and with 5 lows used up, you are left with gimp grid, this forces you to use missles. Also cap rechargers take a crapload of CPU, but I agree with jim that mid slot cap rechargers should be left alone.
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2004.04.07 03:23:00 -
[308]
Quote:
Update:
The changes have been on chaos for a little while now (though for a moment they weren't set properly), and will be going to TQ with the next update (I have no information as to when that will be).
Too bad I can't patch my Chaos client 
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<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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archangel sean
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Posted - 2004.04.07 03:31:00 -
[309]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
yeah but no its the fashion to use armor tanked ravens on Chaos, 6x Cap Rechargers in the midslots and the low used for Wards and Repairs is a Awfull setup without cap problems. It even helps you CPU a bit since you use only 3wards now
yes i dont think the medium slot cap rechargers should be so strong, i'd leave them as they are, i'd hate to see people swap their cap relays for cap rechargers and get uber cap recharge and be in the same boat again, with armor tanking owning all.
well i get a even better raven tank now, armor Tanking works for a very long time and i have crappy armor tank skillz
ravens armor tanking.....I rest my case. :)
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2004.04.07 05:29:00 -
[310]
Quote:
The drawback to using CPR right now, simply doesn't exist in any realistic fashion, thus a change is needed.
That is true, so how about we make shield recharge mean something? So now we have a CPR, which is now useless because it can't be used for shiled tanking and armor tanks don't really have room for it. And still shield recharge means nothing. This is just like the session change thing, instead of fixing the problem they just change the error message "fasten your seatbelt" still the session change isn't fixed. CCP is just taking the lazy way out, again.
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<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.04.07 06:55:00 -
[311]
I can imagine that the medium slot cap rechargers, being marvelous for armour tanks, might not be terribly bad with a penalty on the shield. I am talking about a penalty on the shield, not a penalty on shield recharge.
The shield recharge rates needs tweeking. Over all, all ships need a lowering of the shield recharge rate to a level when it starts to actually play a part. After that, shield boosters could be rather intresting, giving a huge boost to armour recharge rate for a short period of time. The activation times get a bit longer on the low-end booster, while the high-end boosters has the huge recharge rate bonus.
Another possible fix might be to make capacitor power relays about what cap rechargers are now. Low recharge rate bonus, with no pnelaty. Shield boosting is a bit more capa intensive than armour repairing.
I just hope that in order to fix the issue of armour tanks, they do not kill shield tanks. The game needs both to be valid.
Well, there are three kind of tanks, but who seriously want to structure tank? 
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.04.07 23:14:00 -
[312]
16 pages wasted folks...
It'll be in the next patch and CCP is yet to give "their" reason for the change. They just implement it like this thread never existed.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.08 07:31:00 -
[313]
Quote:
16 pages wasted folks...
It'll be in the next patch and CCP is yet to give "their" reason for the change. They just implement it like this thread never existed.
IF you'd read this thread you'd realize that most people are in favor of this change. So it's not wasted, it just didn't reach the conclusion you would like.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.04.08 08:56:00 -
[314]
Um no, if you've read my post before replying...
All i want is an explanation from CCP and not from the rest of the community, because we've got 16 pages full of explanation from them.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.04.08 18:22:00 -
[315]
Quote:
Um no, if you've read my post before replying...
All i want is an explanation from CCP and not from the rest of the community, because we've got 16 pages full of explanation from them.
Let's give a shot at reading between the lines?
1. We are a bit uncomfortable with how the Capacitor Relays are working at the moment
2. We would like armour to recieve a bit more attention by the players.
3. These are the changes we have figured. What do you, the community, think of it?
So in it's essence, these discussions were put up in order for the developers to gauge the reaction of the community, not to explain anything.
Me, I think the Devs job is to improve the game, not sit and give explanations to their decisions all the time.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.09 00:50:00 -
[316]
Edited by: Hellek on 09/04/2004 00:51:28
I have already said it in two other threads but I repeat it here:
With the CPR nerf and the huge drawbacks armor tanking has compared to shield tanking, the Apoc will become a mining-only ship. You won't be able to do anything else with it.
I therefore hope CCP does not change CPRs until they have found a way of keeping the Apoc useful or at least they act very quick after putting the nerf into effect. Its not fair to the Amarr to make their best ship totally useless for any fighting.
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2004.04.09 04:21:00 -
[317]
You know Battlefield Veitnam is a really fun game and it has no subscription fees... I highly suggest you try it out.
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<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.04.09 09:05:00 -
[318]
Quote:
Edited by: Hellek on 09/04/2004 00:51:28
I have already said it in two other threads but I repeat it here:
With the CPR nerf and the huge drawbacks armor tanking has compared to shield tanking, the Apoc will become a mining-only ship. You won't be able to do anything else with it.
I therefore hope CCP does not change CPRs until they have found a way of keeping the Apoc useful or at least they act very quick after putting the nerf into effect. Its not fair to the Amarr to make their best ship totally useless for any fighting.
Oh do stop whining.
Appocalypse has basically the same stats as a Megathron with a few notable exceptions which, for some strange reason, makes it a better Blaster boat than the Megathron! It can carry one more turret, has a very much larger capacitor, plus a huge powergrid. Also, what the Appoc has in armour the Mega has in structure.
Now, I cannot see how Capacitor Power Relay "nerf" is going to make Appocalypse armour tanks impossible. I really do not!
Do look at the changes again! While an Appocs huge cap will indeed loose some of the benefits of the current immense CPR bonus, you must indeed take into account that armour tanking will reduce the number of lowslots free to put CPR in, as well as the Cap Rechargers are getting a boost! Cap Rechargers goes into medium slots.
The only thing wrong with these changes is that it now seems like shield tanking is dying out, which is not good.
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Levin, that sarcasm was unwarranted. It is also a direct reflection upon yourself... (make what you want of that comment, it can be read in two ways)
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If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2004.04.09 10:03:00 -
[319]
Quote:
Levin, that sarcasm was unwarranted. It is also a direct reflection upon yourself... (make what you want of that comment, it can be read in two ways)
Don't preach to me from behind your avatar. Battlefield Vietnam is a fun game, for those of us that are going to have to spend a few days adapting to the change it is nice to have a game to go play and have fun. I tried to figure this out and I can't seem to identify what two ways I can take that comment, please, enlighten me.
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<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.09 15:30:00 -
[320]
Edited by: Hellek on 09/04/2004 15:31:38
Ithildin, I have spent hours trying armor tank setups for Apocs, talking with many other people (with all kinds of different points of view) and the things I posted are the results to which we came.
So please try to verify that the things you said are true, you will fail ... the Apoc will suck so much that you won't be able to use him for PvP any more.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.04.09 16:50:00 -
[321]
Don't preach to me from behind your avatar. Battlefield Vietnam is a fun game, for those of us that are going to have to spend a few days adapting to the change it is nice to have a game to go play and have fun. I tried to figure this out and I can't seem to identify what two ways I can take that comment, please, enlighten me.
You took it in a good natured way. The comment was basically me calling you either a whiner or me calling you honest and too helpful (seriously, it's bad manners suggesting that people play a different game than EVE just because you don't like the changes being made). I am just curious, how could one not preach behind ones avatar?
Hellek, I don't honestly know, except that my Mega has worse capa than the Appoc, and I can keep a decent armour tanking fitting going in TQ quite well. I also know that after changes, I'll have a better recharge rate.
My theory is that most low slots are used for tanking, while most medium slots will be free and get improved capacitor recharge rates.
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If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.09 17:16:00 -
[322]
only that armor tanking does not leave enough space for CPRs (on an armarr ship, the 4 cap recharger II aren't enough for getting the necessary cap) or a heatsink. furthermore no space for i.e. a sensor booster as you HAVE to put Cap Recharger IIs in the meds.
Furthermore armor tanking has several huge drawbacks which make it inferior to shield tanking. there is a long thread about that with the details
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Shirei
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Posted - 2004.04.09 17:42:00 -
[323]
Quote:
So please try to verify that the things you said are true, you will fail ... the Apoc will suck so much that you won't be able to use him for PvP any more.
Most ships that used to shield tank will be quite a bit weaker with the cap relay nerf, not only the Apoc.
Even with a Tempest, which most people say is best off in the cap relay nerf, you have the choice to either take a 20%-30% cut in shield boosting or switch to armor (losing either a damage mod or a 1400mm in the process - assuming a 5 1400mm, 2 gyro + XL booster/amp setup now).
With the new mid slot cap rechargers, armor tanking an apoc will probably be at least as effective as shield tanking is now. Just using too many long-range lasers will be harder because of the higher grid-use of repairers, but mid-range setups with dual heavy beams or pulse lasers should be able to do quite good damage and be competitive. To make long-range viable, a slight decrease in the fitting requirements or cap use for long range lasers (or some other boost) could be good, but I don't think the situation is really quite as bad as you make it out to be.
If you don't restrict yourself to just lasers, using hybrids also gives you a lot of choice (with 425mm rails being quite decent at long range and blasters quite good at short range).
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Cuisinart
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:31:00 -
[324]
Well, despite it all I believe the answer is not to nerf the cpr, but rather to make the shield recharge actual worth a crap so that it's current penalty means something.
Vision without action is a daydream
Action without vision is a nightmare |
Andvari
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Posted - 2004.04.10 03:00:00 -
[325]
BIG TIP TO TOMB ON HOW TO MAKE SHIELD RECHARGE RATE ACTUALLY BE WORTH SOMETHING:
Change the shield boosters so that instead of a direct power injection to the shields, they boost the recharge rate of the shields for the duration of their cycle. This boost would be calculated to make shield boosters perform exactly as they do now, but just through the ships natural shield recharge rate.
Make this change and suddenly.... BAM!
Shield recharge means something. CPRs suddenly have an actual penalty.
This makes about 100 times more sense that what is being done to the CPRs now.
Hello?? TomB?? Are you reading this?? Do you even care about the input from the people who pay to play this game each month??
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2004.04.10 03:21:00 -
[326]
Well since you ask... The best way not to preach from behind an avatar is not to preach at all. You tell me that my comment is unwarranted? Who are you? By telling me what I say has no meaning you are preaching, by telling me that my comment is sarcastic you are preaching. If you just let it go then you wouldn't be preaching.
I am not going to be able to fly my Raven in an effective setup for a few days after the nerf, I need some time to train up some skills and try new setups, I have been unable to connect to Chaos and so can't test new setups. Playing one game forever can get old, those of us that will have to take some time to adapt need something fun to do in the meantime. This change is not making me quit eve, it's taking some fun out of eve for me until I find another setup I like and so I will play a little less until I get relevant skills trained.
So please, let's end the flaming.
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<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.04.10 09:49:00 -
[327]
Edited by: Ithildin on 10/04/2004 09:51:26
I agree with what Andvari wrote. Fully. Making shield recharge mean something.
Edit: Oh and, Levin, sorry for being a bit arrogant. Sometimes I let other events emotions affect what I write on the forums.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
archangel sean
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Posted - 2004.04.12 08:30:00 -
[328]
Edited by: archangel sean on 12/04/2004 08:38:12
I've stopped whining about the cpr nerf and started testing the new setups on chaos...and believe of not, the armageddon and apoc can tank just as well as b4 filling midslot with cap recharger2, 5 low slots with the armor repair/hardner combo, and the rest with cap relays( I beat the **** out of alot of ppl on chaos today...you know who you are).
The problem is, even ravens are armor tanking now..filling their mid slots with cap recharger2s and filling the low slots with armor repairers and hardners. I understand this is the only way to survive after the cpr nerf...but caldari armor tanking??..
Should've just fixed the shield recharge rate..IMO
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.04.12 13:48:00 -
[329]
Quote:
Edited by: archangel sean on 12/04/2004 08:38:12
I've stopped whining about the cpr nerf and started testing the new setups on chaos...and believe of not, the armageddon and apoc can tank just as well as b4 filling midslot with cap recharger2, 5 low slots with the armor repair/hardner combo, and the rest with cap relays( I beat the **** out of alot of ppl on chaos today...you know who you are).
The problem is, even ravens are armor tanking now..filling their mid slots with cap recharger2s and filling the low slots with armor repairers and hardners. I understand this is the only way to survive after the cpr nerf...but caldari armor tanking??..
Should've just fixed the shield recharge rate..IMO
yeah that what i said, shield tanking sucks now with cap relays but the combo cap recharger/armor repairs has no loss at all, for what would a tanked raven needs it midslots now other than cap rechargers
Wanna fly with me?
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.04.13 00:34:00 -
[330]
Quote:
BIG TIP TO TOMB ON HOW TO MAKE SHIELD RECHARGE RATE ACTUALLY BE WORTH SOMETHING:
Change the shield boosters so that instead of a direct power injection to the shields, they boost the recharge rate of the shields for the duration of their cycle. This boost would be calculated to make shield boosters perform exactly as they do now, but just through the ships natural shield recharge rate.
Make this change and suddenly.... BAM!
Shield recharge means something. CPRs suddenly have an actual penalty.
This makes about 100 times more sense that what is being done to the CPRs now.
Hello?? TomB?? Are you reading this?? Do you even care about the input from the people who pay to play this game each month??
This approach is far more intuitive. I'm all for it.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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