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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:34:00 - [1] I was doing some thinking while waiting for some carebears to undock their carriers and came to some conclusions: ISK 'faucets' such as missions and mining are increasing the total volume of ISK in the system, while the major ISK 'sinks' are things like PVP and ammo consumption. So to that end, ISK faucets are highly detrimental to the value of ISK as the volume of ISK increases, while the need to purchase new items decreases, if the 'sinks' can't keep up with the faucets, assuming that population remains static (as we're looking at the volume of ISK per capita). CCP has introduced some interesting sinks into the game lately (rigs and faction ammo are very expensive, yet essential for PVP use and 100% consumable), but I find it amusing that they've introduced mechanics such as these, and not removed others such as insurance (an easy way to remove ISK from the game). Additionally, mission runners in high sec are creating what I would think is a vast amount of ISK in the game with little to no ISK removal on their own part with the exception of ammunition consumption. This means that everyone else in Eve except the mission runners have to shoulder the burden of removing ISK from the game by either destroying or losing ships. As was indicated by the QEN (Quarterly Economic Newsletter), PVPers (players that I would classify as living in 0.0 or low sec. Empire 'PVP'rs are probably an even smaller minority than low sec or 0.0) are a very small minority, as everyone with -3.0 sec or less is less than 1% of the population, and a very small portion of the players lives in 0.0 compared to empire. Furthermore, I'm sure it's obvious that of all the population in 0.0, only a small percentage of those players are actually PVPers, with the rest being industrial/farming players. So here we have game mechanics that generate large amounts of ISK into the economy by the majority of the player base, while a very small fraction of the player base is responsible for removing it. Additionally, those who remove the ISK generate the least amount of ISK into the economy and have the least amount of purchasing power, when compared to the other players in the system. PVP playersgenerate a net ISK amount of zero- while they may gain some ISK from combat, they don't put any new ISK into the game, and in fact remove it every time there is a kill. The question isn't 'if', but 'how much' ISK is destroyed. Players like mission runners (as an example) generate an infinite amount of ISK (given enough time) and remove almost zero ISK from the game (in the form of ammunition, this includes drones etc., and a few ships due to noob losses). The more ISK a mission runner generates, the less likely he is to remove ISK from the economy, as the mission runner becomes more experienced and buys better modules/ships for mission running. Where is the balance in this? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Yonneh Precision Engineering	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:38:00 - [2] Edited by: Yonneh on 29/12/2007 03:37:56 Here to provide nothing of consequence to your thread.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:39:00 - [3] Originally by: Bellum Eternus ISK 'faucets' such as [...] mining Originally by: Bellum Eternus ISK 'sinks' are things like PVP [...] Originally by: Bellum Eternus CCP has introduced some interesting sinks into the game lately (rigs [...] and not removed others such as insurance [...] What. - DesuSigs
Mikelio Raijan Sulithus	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:40:00 - [4] Originally by: Bellum Eternus PVP playersgenerate a net ISK amount of zero- while they may gain some ISK from combat, they don't put any new ISK into the game, and in fact remove it every time there is a kill. The question isn't 'if', but 'how much' ISK is destroyed. Just an FYI, PvP is an ISK faucet. Take a look at how insurance works then have a think about this. Originally by: Mikelio Raijan ...also, Pyramid quote time! \o/ Sorry everyone who received a 'forum break' for continuing this.
Igetshotalot THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:44:00 - [5] uhmm... think again..
Richard Phallus	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I was doing some thinking There's the problem, you may want to avoid that in the future.
Mikelio Raijan Sulithus	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Bellum Eternus ISK 'faucets' such as [...] mining Originally by: Bellum Eternus ISK 'sinks' are things like PVP [...] Originally by: Bellum Eternus CCP has introduced some interesting sinks into the game lately (rigs [...] and not removed others such as insurance [...] What. Ah hell, i'm just going to quote Crumplecorn. Take a note of what he has highlighted and have a think about where -ISK- comes from and where it goes, pay particular attention to what happens to the ISK when you buy a new ship, and what happens when that ship is lost.. remember you are looking at the ISK here. Your thread title is 'I don't have a doctorate in economics but...' so i'm sure people will go easy on you. However hopefully by looking at these things you will quickly realise where you went wrong. Originally by: Mikelio Raijan ...also, Pyramid quote time! \o/ Sorry everyone who received a 'forum break' for continuing this.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Mikelio Raijan Originally by: Bellum Eternus PVP playersgenerate a net ISK amount of zero- while they may gain some ISK from combat, they don't put any new ISK into the game, and in fact remove it every time there is a kill. The question isn't 'if', but 'how much' ISK is destroyed. Just an FYI, PvP is an ISK faucet. Take a look at how insurance works then have a think about this. [sarcasm]Right. Destroying ships increases the net material/ISK value in the economy.[/sarcasm] How insurance works: players pay NPCs to insure their ships. The player's ship is destroyed. The insurance ISK is removed from the game (transferred to NPCs, and not to another player). That is the definition of AN ISK SINK. Just an FYI. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:54:00 - [9] Edited by: Exlegion on 29/12/2007 03:55:34 Originally by: Bellum Eternus PVP playersgenerate a net ISK amount of zero- while they may gain some ISK from combat, they don't put any new ISK into the game, and in fact remove it every time there is a kill. The question isn't 'if', but 'how much' ISK is destroyed. In fact, PVP does not remove isk from the game. PVP is a faucet, and per your argument, it's also part of the 'faucet' problem. As for your argument that mission runners are generating an 'infinite' amount of isk isn't truer than PVP generating isk inflation as well. As long as mission runners collect the loot and salvage their wrecks they more or less balance the relative effects of inflation. PVP (ship destruction) only has one direction; increase inflation. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Mikelio Raijan Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Bellum Eternus ISK 'faucets' such as [...] mining Originally by: Bellum Eternus ISK 'sinks' are things like PVP [...] Originally by: Bellum Eternus CCP has introduced some interesting sinks into the game lately (rigs [...] and not removed others such as insurance [...] What. Ah hell, i'm just going to quote Crumplecorn. Take a note of what he has highlighted and have a think about where -ISK- comes from and where it goes, pay particular attention to what happens to the ISK when you buy a new ship, and what happens when that ship is lost.. remember you are looking at the ISK here. Your thread title is 'I don't have a doctorate in economics but...' so i'm sure people will go easy on you. However hopefully by looking at these things you will quickly realise where you went wrong. So... running missions removes large amounts of material wealth from the game? PVP adds more material wealth to the game? Wern't you the guy who said something about insurance being an ISK faucet? What? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:56:00 - [11] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Mikelio Raijan Originally by: Bellum Eternus PVP playersgenerate a net ISK amount of zero- while they may gain some ISK from combat, they don't put any new ISK into the game, and in fact remove it every time there is a kill. The question isn't 'if', but 'how much' ISK is destroyed. Just an FYI, PvP is an ISK faucet. Take a look at how insurance works then have a think about this. [sarcasm]Right. Destroying ships increases the net material/ISK value in the economy.[/sarcasm] How insurance works: players pay NPCs to insure their ships. The player's ship is destroyed. The insurance ISK is removed from the game (transferred to NPCs, and not to another player). That is the definition of AN ISK SINK. Just an FYI. /facepalm The only way insurance could be an ISK sink is if peoples' ships survived the 12 week insurance period several more times than they were destroyed during it on average. - DesuSigs
Mikelio Raijan Sulithus	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Mikelio Raijan Originally by: Bellum Eternus PVP playersgenerate a net ISK amount of zero- while they may gain some ISK from combat, they don't put any new ISK into the game, and in fact remove it every time there is a kill. The question isn't 'if', but 'how much' ISK is destroyed. Just an FYI, PvP is an ISK faucet. Take a look at how insurance works then have a think about this. [sarcasm]Right. Destroying ships increases the net material/ISK value in the economy.[/sarcasm] How insurance works: players pay NPCs to insure their ships. The player's ship is destroyed. The insurance ISK is removed from the game (transferred to NPCs, and not to another player). That is the definition of AN ISK SINK. Just an FYI. Don't back yourself into a corner with aggression, it will only make you feel more foolish when you have the big 'revelation'. Originally by: Mikelio Raijan ...also, Pyramid quote time! \o/ Sorry everyone who received a 'forum break' for continuing this.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.29 03:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Bellum Eternus ISK 'faucets' such as missions and mining are increasing the total volume of ISK in the system, while the major ISK 'sinks' are things like PVP and ammo consumption. Mining = not ISK faucet (actually, in an indirect way, it counteracts the effects of ISK faucets on inflation) PVP = not an ISK sink in any way (and with insurance it's a net ISk faucet for the most part) Ammo consumption = not an ISK sink in any way Look at it this way: I buy a ship from someone. I get the ship and they get 30 mil ISK from me. Now I have the ship and the ISK is in the wallet of the person I bought it from. I go out and lose that ship. The ship is gone, but the ISK is still safe in the sellers wallet. No currency left the economy.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:00:00 - [14] The last thread about this - DesuSigs
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:05:00 - [15] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 29/12/2007 03:57:23 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Mikelio Raijan Originally by: Bellum Eternus PVP playersgenerate a net ISK amount of zero- while they may gain some ISK from combat, they don't put any new ISK into the game, and in fact remove it every time there is a kill. The question isn't 'if', but 'how much' ISK is destroyed. Just an FYI, PvP is an ISK faucet. Take a look at how insurance works then have a think about this. [sarcasm]Right. Destroying ships increases the net material/ISK value in the economy.[/sarcasm] How insurance works: players pay NPCs to insure their ships. The player's ship is destroyed. The insurance ISK is removed from the game (transferred to NPCs, and not to another player). That is the definition of AN ISK SINK. Just an FYI. /facepalm The only way insurance could be an ISK sink is if peoples' ships survived the 12 week insurance period several more times than they were destroyed during it on average. As I said in the last thread on this a few days ago, the common mistake here is equating value-in-ISK and actual ISK. Ok, lets just remove the concept of ISK and just refer to everything as 'material wealth', as ISK is an abstraction of wealth and it's value is variable depending on other factors. Mission runners/miners generate 99% of the material wealth in Eve, PVPers remove 99% of it. Mission runners do so with near 100% safety. PVPers can't access that wealth (attacking the mission runners hiding in high sec) at all by doing what they do (PVP). Broken? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Bellum Eternus ISK 'faucets' such as missions and mining are increasing the total volume of ISK in the system, while the major ISK 'sinks' are things like PVP and ammo consumption. Mining = not ISK faucet (actually, in an indirect way, it counteracts the effects of ISK faucets on inflation) PVP = not an ISK sink in any way (and with insurance it's a net ISk faucet for the most part) Ammo consumption = not an ISK sink in any way Look at it this way: I buy a ship from someone. I get the ship and they get 30 mil ISK from me. Now I have the ship and the ISK is in the wallet of the person I bought it from. I go out and lose that ship. The ship is gone, but the ISK is still safe in the sellers wallet. No currency left the economy. So would it be correct in saying that 'material wealth' left the economy? The man-hours required to make the ship left the economy, yes? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:08:00 - [17] Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 29/12/2007 04:11:40 Originally by: Hannobaal [Look at it this way: I buy a ship from someone. I get the ship and they get 30 mil ISK from me. Now I have the ship and the ISK is in the wallet of the person I bought it from. I go out and lose that ship. The ship is gone, but the ISK is still safe in the sellers wallet. No currency left the economy. Never thought of of it that way but it makes total sense, any act where you mine something or receive a bounty or loot drop is a creation of the ISK in the game and after that ISK is not destroyed or lost its just transferred around. Unless you count the purchase of some of the uber expensive NPC items like carrier skill books and NPC sale order T1 BPOs like BS or capitol ship ones and thats a pretty significant ISK sink. Originally by: Bellum Eternus So would it be correct in saying that 'material wealth' left the economy? The man-hours required to make the ship left the economy, yes? Material wealth is only worth the price you can get for it a good recent example was the mothership fire sale just before Trinity was released at one stage they where selling for many billions less than the usual price. In a game where the goalposts can be moved at will "material wealth" cant be used to judge actual wealth. moderated - removed to facilitate search query
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:11:00 - [18] Edited by: Hannobaal on 29/12/2007 04:14:28 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Ok, lets just remove the concept of ISK and just refer to everything as 'material wealth', as ISK is an abstraction of wealth and it's value is variable depending on other factors. Fine, but then you will have said nothing that is in any way relevant to the issue of inflation. It's all material wealth, yes. But, they have a completely different effect on inflation and deflation in the economy. More ISK = inflationary pressure Less ISK = deflationary pressure More commodities (stuff to buy) = deflationary pressure Less commodities = inflationary pressure It's basically supply versus demand: More currecncy = more demand = higher prices Less currency = less demand = lower prices More commodities = more supply = lower prices Less commodities = less supply = higher prices
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Never thought of of it that way but it makes total sense, any act where you mine something or receive a bounty or loot drop is a creation of the ISK in the game and after that ISK is not destroyed or lost its just transferred around. Yes, except for mining. When you mine you just create minerals, not ISK. The ISk you get for mining when you sell the minerals comes from another player (since we don't have npc buyers for minerals). So, the ISK you get was already in the economy.
Mikelio Raijan Sulithus	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Paulo Damarr Never thought of of it that way but it makes total sense, any act where you mine something or receive a bounty or loot drop is a creation of the ISK in the game and after that ISK is not destroyed or lost its just transferred around. Yes, except for mining. When you mine you just create minerals, not ISK. The ISk you get for mining when you sell the minerals comes from another player (since we don't have npc buyers for minerals). So, the ISK you get was already in the economy. Infact due to the market tax when you sell minerals, mining is technically an ISK sink. Originally by: Mikelio Raijan ...also, Pyramid quote time! \o/ Sorry everyone who received a 'forum break' for continuing this.

Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:16:00 - [21] Edited by: Exlegion on 29/12/2007 04:18:41 Originally by: Paulo Damarr Never thought of of it that way but it makes total sense, any act where you mine something or receive a bounty or loot drop is a creation of the ISK in the game and after that ISK is not destroyed or lost its just transferred around. Actually, the 'creation' of loot and minerals out of nothing keeps a check on the relative effects of inflation. The destruction of material has the opposite effect, since the same amount of isk remains in the game while there is now less material to trade for it, thus increasing inflation (relatively speaking). One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:19:00 - [22] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 29/12/2007 04:20:21 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Ok, lets just remove the concept of ISK and just refer to everything as 'material wealth', as ISK is an abstraction of wealth and it's value is variable depending on other factors. Mission runners/miners generate 99% of the material wealth in Eve, PVPers remove 99% of it. Mission runners do so with near 100% safety. PVPers can't access that wealth (attacking the mission runners hiding in high sec) at all by doing what they do (PVP). Broken? Looking at it from that perspective, total 'material wealth' or 'abstract wealth' using some magic absolute measuring system does keep increasing. But does it matter? If we both have the same wealth, but then you mission ***** to double your wealth, it does not effect me. Sure you now have more stuff than me, but I still have my stuff so I am unaffected (jealousy notwithstanding). OTOH, if you partake in an activity which is a massive ISK faucet, then my ISK indirectly becomes worth less (inflation), and that does affect me, it effectively reduces how much wealth I have through no action of mine. So I think it only matters when it concerns the ratio of ISK to Stuff, not the total of both And that relates to ISK sinks and faucets, which as pointed out above are more complicated and varied than 'missioners make, PvPers destroy'. However, I might be talking total crap here. - DesuSigs
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:28:00 - [23] Ok, I think I have it now. And the whole reason I posted about this is that I am/was quite confused about it. So everyone is helping me make sense of what I'm thinking about. Ratting/missioning creates raw ISK into the economy. Mining only creates raw materials into the economy that can be traded for ISK. ISK sinks are things like NPC taxes, anything sold by NPCs (like skillbooks, sales taxes, contract fees etc.), NPC station corp office rentals, etc. So I guess what the real questions I'm asking here are this: if mission runners are generating the largest portion of ISK in the game, and PVPers are generating the least amount, then how should we go about designing the game mechanics so that the PVPers have better access to the large amount of ISK/material wealth generated by the mission runners? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Igetshotalot THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Richard Phallus Originally by: Bellum Eternus I was doing some thinking There's the problem, you may want to avoid that in the future. QFT :))
Arekhon Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:41:00 - [25] Edited by: Arekhon on 29/12/2007 04:43:30 after looking at this thread /me now understands why most petitions get denied. edit: instead of saying "we reviewed the game logs...yadda yadda" they should say "we are sorry but the sink needs more isk" Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap [BEES]
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Arekhon after looking at this thread /me now understands why most petitions get denied. Material wealth removal? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Viper G	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:46:00 - [27] All mmorpgs are like this. If Eve were a person, that person would vote for Ron Paul.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Bellum Eternus So I guess what the real questions I'm asking here are this: if mission runners are generating the largest portion of ISK in the game, and PVPers are generating the least amount, then how should we go about designing the game mechanics so that the PVPers have better access to the large amount of ISK/material wealth generated by the mission runners? See, yes that makes more sense. I just went back and saw that you never actually mentioned inflation anyway. It was all the talk about sinks and faucets and the need to removeit at the same rate in entered. Anyway, as far as the distribution of wealth, a lot of people who do pvp combat in Eve also do other things to make money for themselves, either with the same character or with alts. For example, I have an industrial alt in a one-person corp that buys salvage materials and manufactures rigs near Jita so this character can buy and fit combat ships. Also, a lot of people (pirates) use pvp combat to steal wealth from others. There's two problems I, personally, think are there though. First of all, there are people who just run missions all the time and have no way of using their money in any kind of meaningful way (cause they don't want to fight other players or lead corps or alliances). They just keep piling up ISK and stuff in their wallet and hangars that they don't really need. Secondly, the more wealth in general there is in the economy (both ISK and stuff of value) compared to the number of players, the easier it is for people to buy and equip bigger and more expensive ships and lose them. At some point it kind of cheapens the game when everyone is so rich (if it comes to that point) that they can afford to fly around in capitals and lose them like people do with cruisers right now. Yaay did a thread about that months ago, except he kept calling it "inflation" for some odd reason. :)
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.29 04:49:00 - [29] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 29/12/2007 04:50:38 Originally by: Bellum Eternus So I guess what the real questions I'm asking here are this: if mission runners are generating the largest portion of ISK in the game, and PVPers are generating the least amount, then how should we go about designing the game mechanics so that the PVPers have better access to the large amount of ISK/material wealth generated by the mission runners? I'm not completely certain of what you are asking. To give direct access to that wealth you could start by (drastic example) moving L4 missions to lowsec. That way PvPers can gank carebears and take their expensive mission running gear. But in that case carebears will probably stop fitting expensive gear. Or simply learn to avoid being ganked. The amount of ISK/wealth that can be made through PvP is determined by how much people risk and subsequently lose in PvP. Mission runners have a lot of wealth because they risk as little as possible, so there's not much you can do to change it really. In terms of giving PvPers non-missioning ways of making their own money, that's a case of boosting lowsec and 0.0 moneymaking I guess... or just removing missions completely. That'd be a laugh. - DesuSigs
Mikelio Raijan Sulithus	Posted - 2007.12.29 05:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Mikelio Raijan Originally by: Bellum Eternus PVP playersgenerate a net ISK amount of zero- while they may gain some ISK from combat, they don't put any new ISK into the game, and in fact remove it every time there is a kill. The question isn't 'if', but 'how much' ISK is destroyed. Just an FYI, PvP is an ISK faucet. Take a look at how insurance works then have a think about this. Insurance. T2 ships. Do the math. Even on T2 ships you do not pay more to insure the ship than you receive from the insurance. Please read through the thread. Originally by: Mikelio Raijan ...also, Pyramid quote time! \o/ Sorry everyone who received a 'forum break' for continuing this.



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