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How to Make 1 Billion + Isk per Day

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Nightfreeze	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:01:00 - [1] Edited by: Nightfreeze on 30/12/2007 06:02:12 Edited by: Nightfreeze on 30/12/2007 06:01:40 The best, fastest, and most effective way to make money in EVE is also one of the simplest. Trading. Now don't get me wrong. Trading does NOT mean space trucking NPC-bought goods across lowsec space for a couple million ISK profit only to be blown up by some pirates who just got home from school. The trading I'm referring to deals in player-built ships and modules, moon minerals, etc etc. It also does not require you to leave the station you are trading out of, assuming you are in a trade hub. Perhaps the best thing about it is that you MAKE MONEY WHILE YOU SLEEP. There's nothing better than waking up and seeing your wallet 200 million ISK fatter than it was than when you laid down to take a nap a few hours ago. I operated primarily out of Jita with an alt in Rens. If I put in the work, I can make over a billion ISK in a single day. If I weren't quitting EVE and decided to get really hardcore about trading and buy 4-5 accounts (one for each hub), I could easily see myself pulling in 2 billion ISK a day. Here's how: For EVERY item in EVE that is actively traded on the market, there is a spread between the buy orders and the sell orders. You can calculate the percentage size of this spread by dividing the price of the lowest realistic sell order by the price of the highest realistic buy order. For example: In this case, I would calculate the spread of the covert ops cloaking device IIs as follows: 10998/10000 = 1.0998 or 9.98%. If I put up a buy order at 10 million, have that buy order filled and put up a sell order at 10.998 million, I would make about a 10% return on the ISK invested. HOWEVER, you have to take broker fees and the sales tax into account. With no skill in broker relations or accounting, this shaves 3% off your profit. With broker relations 5 and accounting 5, you shave 2% off the profit. With great standings, broker relations 5, accounting 5, take 1% off the profit. The difference between 3% and 1% is HUGE when you're dealing with high-volume goods over a long period of time. Thus, on my accounting 5 broker relations 5 character with 0 standings, our 10% profit becomes an 8% profit. With a billion ISK invested in the trade, that's an 80 million ISK profit. Not too shabby. "But Nightfreeze, how can I find good stuff to trade?" Quite easy. Go into the price history screen and look at the table. Make sure it is sorted by date with the latest date is at the top. Multiply the AVERAGE PRICE PER DAY by the AVERAGE VOLUME PER DAY. A good rule of thumb is that if there isn't at least 1 billion ISK going through the item every day, it's not worth seriously trading. Also, make sure there is a sufficient amount of order volume. If there aren't at least 20 orders per day of the item, it might still be worth trading, but it won't be your bread and butter. The funny thing is, you don't even have to know what the item does. I don't know what half the ** I trade does. All you have to know is the spread and the volume. Or if you're lazy, you can look at the following screenshots and trade the stuff on the quickbar. Most of it fits my criteria for trading. A key thing to remember is that the markets are ALWAYS CHANGING, so you always have to watch them. An item with **ty volume and a 4% spread today might have great volume and a 20% spread tomorrow.
Nightfreeze	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:01:00 - [2] Edited by: Nightfreeze on 30/12/2007 06:03:27 Also notice in those screenshots the way my interface is arranged. It is CRUCIAL CRUCIAL CRUCIAL that you use your wallet for order management and the quickbar of the market screen to move between items. This will save you ridiculous amounts of time moving between items and modifying orders. To add an item to the quickbar, right click it on the market screen and click 'add item to quickbar'. Now you can browse to it quickly without having to scroll through numerous laggy windows. My most profitable items are POS fuels (hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, helium isotopes and liquid ozone), covert ops cloaking device IIs, +5 implants, and advanced materials. And my last, most important piece of advice to any trader... STAY ON TOP OF YOUR ORDERS. If you 'go away' for a few weeks, you may come back to a nasty surprise as the item you bought at 200 is now trading at 73 and you've lost billions of ISK. This has happened to me more times than I care to admit. Crucial skills to train include Accounting V, Broker Relations V, Margin Trading V, and the other trade skills such as retail and wholesale that let you increase your number of active orders. There is a lot more to trading than what I've written here, I could probably write 30 pages about it. But these are the basics. If you have any questions, ask them here.
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:05:00 - [3] It's BIG.
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:09:00 - [4] Nice little guide, you might want to change pics to links though before you get forum nerfed. ________
Vodun Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:17:00 - [5] Edited by: Vodun on 30/12/2007 06:18:07 To be perfectly honest, I can't stand carebear crap like this, but keeping with the honesty, you've actually made it sound quite interesting. Making me consider starting up a trading alt just to check it out. Also, nice post; Most of the other market examples I've noticed people write have been overly complex and pretentious. I agree with the above poster though. Smaller pics or links would be better. Cheers ---
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:25:00 - [6] Yeah nice guide, its always good to see people shareing the less common ways of makeing isk with others, and tradeing is something i used to do a fair bit myself. As you say though, the disadvantage is haveing to keep a very close eye on all your orders, or your invested isk will either end up going to waste or being ripped out of your wallet. ps: to all traders who bought those encryption method skillbooks for 160m (that are now 25m) yeah... sorrey that was me, but its all your own fault this is why sometimes if you can't keep on the ball, its better to chalk the sales tax up as a loss and cancle the order - (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
Nova Fox	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:27:00 - [7] please nerf your pictures! link them please.
Militis Kolosok Caldari Praetorian BlackGuard	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:28:00 - [8] Thanks, a new way to look at it for me :) Too bad most of my isk is in items that are on sell orders atm, or I'd give this a go ASAP.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:39:00 - [9] I love the guide, Nightfreeze. I usually don't term people "winners" or "losers" in a game like Eve, but I can't help but think you are a winner. Shame you're quitting Eve, but I'm sure you're making waves in the real world too. Best of wishes, Nightfreeze. --- Join BH-DL Skills
illusha North Face Force	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:44:00 - [10] If I didn't have to train those carebear skills to lvl 5, then I might try trading. I tried it a while ago when I bought a bulk of quad lif boosters and tried to resell them. I didn't like it because I had to sell a lot in order to get a decent profit.
Militis Kolosok Caldari Praetorian BlackGuard	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:53:00 - [11] I have a question, how much time must be spent on this a day?
TheSystem Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Militis Kolosok I have a question, how much time must be spent on this a day? The idea here is that you start investing a lot to being with, and have a huge number of orders running at once. You'll win with some of your orders, whether its buying the item at your price or selling it, but you'll lose with some of your orders. By losing of course I mean coming back to find yourself undercut, or maybe its not a popular item and it takes a while for your orders to be filled. Do lots at once, you'll see the benefit.
Nightfreeze	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Militis Kolosok I have a question, how much time must be spent on this a day? The more time that is spent placing and updating your orders, the greater a profit you will make. However, I would greatly prefer having a single hour divided up into 10 minute increments over 2 hour blocks (for a total of 12 hours of coverage) as opposed to having 2 hours of trading in a single period. Those 12 hours of coverage will bring in far greater profit than 2 straight hours of trading could, even though you are only actively trading for 1 hour over those 12 hours.
Militis Kolosok Caldari Praetorian BlackGuard	Posted - 2007.12.30 07:03:00 - [14] Hmm that's what I figured. I put up a couple of orders for multi million trades/day items and not a single unit was sold to me yet. Only have 50 mil to start off with for now :\
Nightfreeze	Posted - 2007.12.30 07:05:00 - [15] Originally by: Militis Kolosok Hmm that's what I figured. I put up a couple of orders for multi million trades/day items and not a single unit was sold to me yet. Only have 50 mil to start off with for now :\ I recommend starting off with at least 500 million. Sell a 90 day timecard if you have to. It will pay itself off many times over in the future.
Makhan	Posted - 2007.12.30 07:06:00 - [16] Can you please do at least one more epic scam or something before you quit?
Los Evilis	Posted - 2007.12.30 07:10:00 - [17] I was thinking of making a research alt but I've heard that with a bit of effort trading can be far more profitable before. What kind of attribute spread would you recommend? Simply stack everything on charisma?
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.30 07:26:00 - [18] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 30/12/2007 07:29:20 A thousand challengers appeared. You just made a lot of tight-lipped traders very unhappy. I for one welcome the competition, but would like to point out this is not for everybody. It requires, as mentioned, a large amount of starting capital to worth your time, as well as the very frequent presence of a character in the region you are trading in. The main problem faced by people who take up trading is that they make an unwise or unlucky investment and lose a lot of ISK, spread your investments between different, and preferably unrelated or inversely related, items and... Don't invest what you can't afford to lose.
Eralus	Posted - 2007.12.30 07:45:00 - [19] This doesn't work very well. It's time intensive, to work at all, and big price swings can more than wipe out your small profits. Maybe you can make 1 bil one day, but you can just as easily lose 2 bil the next. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
Nightfreeze	Posted - 2007.12.30 07:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Eralus This doesn't work very well. It's time intensive, to work at all, and big price swings can more than wipe out your small profits. Maybe you can make 1 bil one day, but you can just as easily lose 2 bil the next. This is just what a trader would say to attempt to dissuade people from moving in on his markets. You can't play a player ;) It's almost impossible to lose money while trading as long as the spread is decent enough and there is enough volume. The only times you lose money are when markets are wildly swinging in one direction or another, which generally don't happen unless there's a patch or big change upcoming, and even then it won't happen if you keep on top of your orders.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2007.12.30 07:50:00 - [21] Edited by: Zeba on 30/12/2007 07:51:17 edit: ^lol Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf You just made a lot of tight-lipped traders very unhappy. Originally by: Eralus This doesn't work very well. It's time intensive, to work at all, and big price swings can more than wipe out your small profits. Maybe you can make 1 bil one day, but you can just as easily lose 2 bil the next. And heres one of them doing a bit of subtle damage control.
Ormen Tuttle Caldari Intergalactic Amalgamated Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.30 07:58:00 - [22] Your plan is great if you start out with billions of isk to invest in the first place. To get to that point I suggest investing in popular ships first. I make a good income from doing so and just passed my first billion mark in cash. Ormen Tuttle http://www.ahnog.us/eve.htm
The Chaz Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:03:00 - [23] Very nice post nightfreeze. I was wondering if you had any expirence in buying low in trading hubs and couring/hauling items to missions hubs for higher profits. Im currently a station trader in Jita, and ive heard that doing this can rake alot of ISK. Ive tryed selling some items in Motsu but the prices are relitivly similar to Jita and it doesnt seem like its worth the extra effort. Thanks THREE FIDDY
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:10:00 - [24] someone once said buy low sell high and i figured all this out myself and i never understood the people who go to sell an item and undercut by more than .01 isk. hey look the market value is 10mil, guess i will sell for 9mil!!!!
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:12:00 - [25] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton someone once said buy low sell high and i figured all this out myself and i never understood the people who go to sell an item and undercut by more than .01 isk. hey look the market value is 10mil, guess i will sell for 9mil!!!! I was wondering how you guys funded your little T2 gatecamping fleet off the meager pickings that come through the Friggi gate.
Nightfreeze	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:13:00 - [26] Originally by: The Chaz Very nice post nightfreeze. I was wondering if you had any expirence in buying low in trading hubs and couring/hauling items to missions hubs for higher profits. Im currently a station trader in Jita, and ive heard that doing this can rake alot of ISK. Ive tryed selling some items in Motsu but the prices are relitivly similar to Jita and it doesnt seem like its worth the extra effort. Thanks Generally no, it's not worth it to haul to a mission hub. HOWEVER, it can be worth it to haul to 0.0 if there is a large enough price differential, if you can ensure that your hauling trip will be safe, and if the overall profit is big enough to justify the time and risk of watching a big ship traverse through gate after gate for 30 + minutes.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton someone once said buy low sell high and i figured all this out myself and i never understood the people who go to sell an item and undercut by more than .01 isk. hey look the market value is 10mil, guess i will sell for 9mil!!!! I was wondering how you guys funded your little T2 gatecamping fleet off the meager pickings that come through the Friggi gate. we have funding now? Who talked?!? ____________________ Hi. I'm not an alt :)
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton someone once said buy low sell high and i figured all this out myself and i never understood the people who go to sell an item and undercut by more than .01 isk. hey look the market value is 10mil, guess i will sell for 9mil!!!! I was wondering how you guys funded your little T2 gatecamping fleet off the meager pickings that come through the Friggi gate. we have funding now? Well I just assumed from your post that you were a daytime trader and nightime plunderer. So how exactly do you guys make your isk then? Those npc BS in front of the state bank surely can't cover the cost of all those command ships and fittings.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:27:00 - [29] Originally by: Zeba Well I just assumed from your post that you were a daytime trader and nightime plunderer. So how exactly do you guys make your isk then? Those npc BS in front of the state bank surely can't cover the cost of all those command ships and fittings. We have our ways... it has something to do with a salt shaker, an empty box of fries and a ribbon cable for a harddrive. ____________________ Hi. I'm not an alt :)
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:27:00 - [30] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton someone once said buy low sell high and i figured all this out myself and i never understood the people who go to sell an item and undercut by more than .01 isk. hey look the market value is 10mil, guess i will sell for 9mil!!!! I was wondering how you guys funded your little T2 gatecamping fleet off the meager pickings that come through the Friggi gate. we have funding now? Who talked?!? awwwwwww shi- tech found out
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:33:00 - [31] Ah great. More competition But pulling 2bill per day requires alot of work. I can easily make 30mill per day with 5 minuts of work. But if you wanna stay on top of 100-200 buyorders, which i think it requires, then you gotta spend alot more than 1 hour per day. This signature is brought to you by EBankÖ, free space for moderators to brag.
Militis Kolosok Caldari Praetorian BlackGuard	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:35:00 - [32] Originally by: Nightfreeze Originally by: Militis Kolosok Hmm that's what I figured. I put up a couple of orders for multi million trades/day items and not a single unit was sold to me yet. Only have 50 mil to start off with for now :\ I recommend starting off with at least 500 million. Sell a 90 day timecard if you have to. It will pay itself off many times over in the future. I am actually doing this so I can pay for the game :( Don't have RL cash. College is expensive, and no time to get a job. I do have 500 mil worth of stuff on sale in Jita atm. It should get sold within the week (about a fifth of it is gone already, and that money is in buy orders).
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.30 08:36:00 - [33] It's a great guide. really. But it's pretty much what everyone already knows. put time and effort into trading and it pays off. only downside is that you need starting capital. you need to play for a while before you can really take advantage of it.
Einstein II Biotech Industries	Posted - 2007.12.30 09:01:00 - [34] Originally by: Vodun Edited by: Vodun on 30/12/2007 06:18:07 To be perfectly honest, I can't stand carebear crap like this You know that it's not because you dont like something that it is necessairly crap, do you ? And to be perfectly honest, nobody cares that you dont like "carebear activities" like you said so eloquently
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.12.30 09:22:00 - [35] Originally by: Einstein II Originally by: Vodun Edited by: Vodun on 30/12/2007 06:18:07 To be perfectly honest, I can't stand carebear crap like this You know that it's not because you dont like something that it is necessairly crap, do you ? And to be perfectly honest, nobody cares that you dont like "carebear activities" like you said so eloquently don't feed the trolls
Rigo Kajjar	Posted - 2007.12.30 09:39:00 - [36] Originally by: LaVista Vista Ah great. More competition Nah, the amount of players who think that trading means truck driving in a freighter is annoyingly high. Let's be happy for everyone who finally gets it. More competition is also more fun when you try to outsmart them. Also, the original post is a pretty well written introduction. Of course there is still lots more, eg howto increase spreads so that a 1m bid-ask difference becomes 1.3 or 1.7m. Or actively moving the prices down one day, stock up, sell the next day for something like 4-5m difference per unit. Or howto push people out of the market who have more time than you to play the 0.01 isk game Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton and i never understood the people who go to sell an item and undercut by more than .01 isk. hey look the market value is 10mil, guess i will sell for 9mil!!!! Buying your stuff for 9 and putting it up for 9.99 immediately is easy cash with just 3 seconds effort. Thank you.
Ursula LeGuinn	Posted - 2007.12.30 09:41:00 - [37] I dunno... when I played EVE a year ago, I did a great deal of station trading in Jita IV. It's not all fun and games, incense and peppermints, even if you know exactly what you're doing and have a good stash of capital to start off with. There are lots of station traders in this game. After you put up your buy or sell order, half an hour later (sometimes much sooner) someone changes their order to beat yours. So you change your order to be better than theirs. Half an hour later, someone else has changed their order to trump yours yet again. Repeat ad infinitum. The name of the game is being the person with the lowest/highest bid when someone happens to fulfill one of your orders. There is no magical land where you put up your buy orders, go to bed, wake up, find them all or at least mostly filled, place your sell orders, go to work, then come home and your sell orders have also been filled. No, in the real EVE, you have to constantly check that ***. Sure, even with lots of orders, it doesn't take long to do the checking. But trading in EVE is like smoking: You can't be away from the computer for more than an hour. To succeed at trading, you're basically chained to it. I started with 150 million as a n00b (from hauling some guy's ore for a month), and turned that into 700 million in over a week of station trading. I'm a smart fellow, and I learn fast... it's not hard. But I quit the game the first time because* of station trading. It's profitable, but also a huge pain in the ass.
Nagen	Posted - 2007.12.30 10:38:00 - [38] then comes the hardest part of deciding what to do with all the billions ...
Deviant Desire	Posted - 2007.12.30 10:51:00 - [39] Sorry boys and yes I did type 'boys' but trading isn't the only way to make good iskies ;-). I've made quite a good profit 'manufacturing' well I guess you could call that trade too because I eventually sell the stuff but I first have to make the stuff. Doesn't trading imply that you buy at a low price and sell for a higher price ? Simply put ? Besides I like trade too I sold some 'tritanium' which is a mineral from ore when refined and when the prices of trit were high I made some very nice profit ;-). You'll ask or say mining does not make profit in any way, not true I take the time to train the skills to mine well, refine the ore, and then look for the best prices. I may be a simple dumb miner, but I have fun and enjoy Eve and playing ;-). Maybe one day I'll be rich and famous... naaahhhh screw that I just like being me ;-). Invention is another 'good' area to make iskies. What's wrong with that also ? Have fun all and fly safe ;-)
Lacco	Posted - 2007.12.30 10:58:00 - [40] i made 1billion in a day by suiciding haulers
Merritt	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:05:00 - [41] Quote: ...If I weren't quitting EVE... Two whole pages and no asks for stuff? I'm disappointed, EVE community. (Fine, I'll start... Can I have 1% of your stuff?)
Sasha Sen	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:21:00 - [42] ooh 2nd, can I have the second 1%?
Verone Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:26:00 - [43] Lol, Nightfreeze... >>> TRIBUTE TO A FALLEN WINGMAN <<<
Fiona Traydalt	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Nagen then comes the hardest part of deciding what to do with all the billions ... Lose faction-fit t2 ships by the dozens because you've spent the last few months sitting in Jita and don't remember how to pilot the things anymore.
Rigo Kajjar	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:51:00 - [45] Originally by: Sasha Sen ooh 2nd, can I have the second 1%? Tsk, you surely meant "I'll undercut you and do it for just 0.99%"
Dracule Amarr Yrma sales unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:53:00 - [46] I'll go above them both and ask for 98% (so u can all quit asking now, I've asked for the rest) How about sending some of your lovely "hard" earned ISK to me...and then I'll use it to work my magic with your guide.
Andreask14 Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula Dragons Of Oceans	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:55:00 - [47] Mining high ores yields more profit than 1 billion a day with less initial investment.
Sellerna Grant	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:57:00 - [48] I'm a trader Alt (for obvious reasons) in Jita for almost 1 year now. Nightfreeze talks the truth, but forgot to mention the boredom of doing this 0.01 isk game and to keep your orders on top. It's the first step to start wishing to quit EVE, as he said will do. Don't get me wrong, as I said, he is right about the high profit, you can invest the initial 500 millions isk and gain 50 millions, that for sure. In all my accounts, this is the only trader (buy and sell) and I can do more ISK in any of the other Chars but, as I'm not quitting EVE, I will keep that secret for me and my closest friends. Of course, if you are going to do this with your main Char it's better having a huge backup when you get wardeced by someone that have plenty of ISK to contract some of the mercenary groups to get you out of the market, don't doubt, this happens more than you can imagine. Oh, and is a sure way to not have friends as you will be always logged at your trade Alt, looking the orders and becoming more and more recluse in the game, ask Nightfreeze why he is quitting the game and why he didn't just shared his experiences with his friends but, instead, came to General Discussions to spread it. If you have doubts about what I'm talking about, you can put this Char in your buddlyst and monitor when I log with her, I can say before you do it: it's 2 times a week, if so, and no more than 2 or 3 minutes each time, because I pay to have fun and play with my friends.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.12.30 12:32:00 - [49] I wonder if OP is taking credit for someone elses guide or if you are the same person as the one posting this guide on the Goon forums? Secure 3rd party service ■ the Love project

Protheroe	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:10:00 - [50] Quote: I dunno... when I played EVE a year ago, I did a great deal of station trading in Jita IV. It's not all fun and games, incense and peppermints, even if you know exactly what you're doing and have a good stash of capital to start off with. There are lots of station traders in this game. After you put up your buy or sell order, half an hour later (sometimes much sooner) someone changes their order to beat yours. So you change your order to be better than theirs. Half an hour later, someone else has changed their order to trump yours yet again. Repeat ad infinitum. The name of the game is being the person with the lowest/highest bid when someone happens to fulfill one of your orders. There is no magical land where you put up your buy orders, go to bed, wake up, find them all or at least mostly filled, place your sell orders, go to work, then come home and your sell orders have also been filled. No, in the real EVE, you have to constantly check that **. Sure, even with lots of orders, it doesn't take long to do the checking. But trading in EVE is like smoking: You can't be away from the computer for more than an hour. To succeed at trading, you're basically chained to it. I started with 150 million as a n00b (from hauling some guy's ore for a month), and turned that into 700 million in over a week of station trading. I'm a smart fellow, and I learn fast... it's not hard. But I quit the game the first time because of station trading. It's profitable, but also a huge pain in the ass I agree. I enjoy trading, but I've found that once your orders are up, updating them is a monotony without any of the entertainment of other grinds. In the major trading hubs, or even popular mission areas, you are outbid or undercut far too frequently to make a reliable afk income out of it. You encounter less competition if you pick less populated areas and put up ranged orders, but the volume is often too low to make it worthwhile, and hauling to retail sites can be time consuming if you can't guarantee your courier contracts will be accepted. Quote: Would also like to see auto-updating orders that update on the 4 minute cycle to the best price up to whereever you set your stops. This is really worth discussing as it's a normal "feature" on all modern markets. Instead of the 0.01 game it would be all about triggering the other traders' stops, much like the real world. I like this idea, but I'm not sure about the 4 minute cycle. Wouuld orders update at a universal 4 minute interval, or in cycles from 4 minutes starting from when the order was placed until it is filled? If the timer is universal and all orders are updated at the same time, how do you choose between competing orders which update to the same price? If the timer is specific to each order, the trick would be to place your order so that the timer initiates at the start of the longest time interval in the 4 minute cycle between two other orders updating. Older orders are therefore still potentially penalised, and there is an element of randomness as to who can hijack the market at the correct time and be in the monopoly position for the longest part of the cycle. Quote:** Or howto push people out of the market who have more time than you to play the 0.01 isk game I want to hear this
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:16:00 - [51] Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? I want less competition not more please. kthx.
Guilliman Roboute	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:34:00 - [52] Did I read correct that you are quiting? If so, would you mind helping someone out who'd love to give it a go, but has no financial backup? I would really like it ^_^. I don't play enough to be to sociable in eve, so many other things i do a day :(. but EVE <3
Guilliman R Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:34:00 - [53] ugh stupid alt, this is my main ---sig---
Valron Xizor The Xizor Cartel	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Vodun Edited by: Vodun on 30/12/2007 06:18:07 To be perfectly honest, I can't stand carebear crap like this, but keeping with the honesty, you've actually made it sound quite interesting. Making me consider starting up a trading alt just to check it out. Also, nice post; Most of the other market examples I've noticed people write have been overly complex and pretentious. I agree with the above poster though. Smaller pics or links would be better. Cheers How exeptionally narrowminded of you. Carebare crap? You assume every one plays Eve for the pew pew and that my friend shows the scope of your mentality. I wouldnt bother trying if I were you, you clearly dont have the brains to do this kind of thing. I suggest you stick with killing noobs to make your ISK.
Venec Rave Technologies Inc. C0VEN	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:55:00 - [55] Quote: [..]only to be blown up by some pirates who just got home from school.[..] wut
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.12.30 14:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Nightfreeze Edited by: Nightfreeze on 30/12/2007 06:31:27 The best, fastest, and most effective way to make money in EVE is also one of the simplest. Trading. Now don't get me wrong. Trading does NOT mean space trucking NPC-bought goods across lowsec space for a couple million ISK profit only to be blown up by some pirates who just got home from school. The trading I'm referring to deals in player-built ships and modules, moon minerals, etc etc. It also does not require you to leave the station you are trading out of, assuming you are in a trade hub. Perhaps the best thing about it is that you MAKE MONEY WHILE YOU SLEEP. There's nothing better than waking up and seeing your wallet 200 million ISK fatter than it was than when you laid down to take a nap a few hours ago. I operated primarily out of Jita with an alt in Rens. If I put in the work, I can make over a billion ISK in a single day. If I weren't quitting EVE and decided to get really hardcore about trading and buy 4-5 accounts (one for each hub), I could easily see myself pulling in 2 billion ISK a day. Here's how: For EVERY item in EVE that is actively traded on the market, there is a spread between the buy orders and the sell orders. You can calculate the percentage size of this spread by dividing the price of the lowest realistic sell order by the price of the highest realistic buy order. For example: http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1552/goods1xt3.jpg In this case, I would calculate the spread of the covert ops cloaking device IIs as follows: 10998/10000 = 1.0998 or 9.98%. If I put up a buy order at 10 million, have that buy order filled and put up a sell order at 10.998 million, I would make about a 10% return on the ISK invested. HOWEVER, you have to take broker fees and the sales tax into account. With no skill in broker relations or accounting, this shaves 3% off your profit. With broker relations 5 and accounting 5, you shave 2% off the profit. With great standings, broker relations 5, accounting 5, take 1% off the profit. The difference between 3% and 1% is HUGE when you're dealing with high-volume goods over a long period of time. Thus, on my accounting 5 broker relations 5 character with 0 standings, our 10% profit becomes an 8% profit. With a billion ISK invested in the trade, that's an 80 million ISK profit. Not too shabby. "But Nightfreeze, how can I find good stuff to trade?" Quite easy. Go into the price history screen and look at the table. Make sure it is sorted by date with the latest date is at the top. Multiply the AVERAGE PRICE PER DAY by the AVERAGE VOLUME PER DAY. A good rule of thumb is that if there isn't at least 1 billion ISK going through the item every day, it's not worth seriously trading. Also, make sure there is a sufficient amount of order volume. If there aren't at least 20 orders per day of the item, it might still be worth trading, but it won't be your bread and butter. The funny thing is, you don't even have to know what the item does. I don't know what half the ** I trade does. All you have to know is the spread and the volume. Or if you're lazy, you can look at the following screenshots and trade the stuff on the quickbar. Most of it fits my criteria for trading. A key thing to remember is that the markets are ALWAYS CHANGING, so you always have to watch them. An item with **ty volume and a 4% spread today might have great volume and a 20% spread tomorrow. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7534/goods2oa6.jpg http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/9098/goods3ul9.jpg Heresy! staying safe in high sec trade hubs making millions of ISK risk free! CCPs selling out people are supposed to be able to gank your ship! Move all the market stations and hubs to low sec because being able to trade safely in high sec is causing inflation and the collapse of the space time continuum like level 4 agents in high sec are!!!!!1111one!! ----------------------------------------------- My new years resolution is to give up nonconstructive posting
Artimis Scout	Posted - 2007.12.30 14:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Vodun Edited by: Vodun on 30/12/2007 06:18:07 To be perfectly honest, I can't stand carebear crap like this, You are aware PVP does not always mean shooting at people.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.30 15:23:00 - [58] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 30/12/2007 15:23:33 yep, charisma is a great attribute (got char 25). and definately has it's merit. it's also decent for command ship skilling, and a few standing skills, other than that it is granted useless for pvp. but eve is much more than pvp, eventhough that's a very very cool part of eve tbqh
Daphne Eveningstar	Posted - 2007.12.30 16:42:00 - [59] Edited by: Daphne Eveningstar on 30/12/2007 16:42:56 Originally by: Protheroe I like this idea, but I'm not sure about the 4 minute cycle. Wouuld orders update at a universal 4 minute interval, or in cycles from 4 minutes starting from when the order was placed until it is filled? If the timer is universal and all orders are updated at the same time, how do you choose between competing orders which update to the same price? If the timer is specific to each order, the trick would be to place your order so that the timer initiates at the start of the longest time interval in the 4 minute cycle between two other orders updating. Older orders are therefore still potentially penalised, and there is an element of randomness as to who can hijack the market at the correct time and be in the monopoly position for the longest part of the cycle. Isn't this pretty much exactly how price warfare is conducted currently? Currently we can only modify our open orders one time every 4 minutes. So really, the whole daytrading side of station trading is about keeping your orders on top of all the competitions'. So you keep enough orders open such that every time your competition updates their prices, you have one order free and untouched for 4 minutes to modify to outbid him and keep yours on top. So I am just asking that this process be automated to a degree. The majority of the people leading the price curve would be using auto-ticking orders with stops set. Prices might move a bit more gradually than they do now but there would still be a lot you could do to game the system like triggering the other guy's stops, and run multiple orders timed perfectly against the other guy's so you monopolize 90% of the "best price time" for an item. This would lessen the need to persistently load and reload and flip between items and check recheck and modify your orders by hand. You'd just set them and wait for either a sale or for your stops to trigger.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.30 17:23:00 - [60] Originally by: Artimis Scout Originally by: Vodun Edited by: Vodun on 30/12/2007 06:18:07 To be perfectly honest, I can't stand carebear crap like this, You are aware PVP does not always mean shooting at people. You can lose a couple hundred mill to a combat PvP'er You can lose a several billion to a market PvP'er Carebearing it is not. I'd also love to know how these people fund themselves. If mining, trading, and NPCing are all carebear activities where do the ISKies come from? I suppose all those single units of tritanium must add up. Seriously, even the best pirate will have unlucky streaks and have to NPC or such to get their funds up.
Helge Lund	Posted - 2007.12.30 17:48:00 - [61] Befor you quit, i'd just like to say thank you for introducing me to Eve Online! A long time ago the great scam story got posted on my old guilds forum, and i was looking for a new MMO at the time. After reading it i tried Eve out and did not regret it Thank you! And good luck.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.30 18:18:00 - [62] if someone couldnt figure this out on their own dont expect them to make any money after reading your - guide - Trashed sig, Shark was here
Karlemgne Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.30 19:30:00 - [63] Great guide! Now let me explain something to you. First, I play eve to have fun, not to work. I don't want to get two, three, or four accounts to sit in trading hubs, refreshing markets every 30 seconds to try and beat people's "buy and sell" orders by fracking .01 isk. On top of that, to be quite honest the return on investment is too small for most people. This whole for every 1 billion isk invested you see an 80 million isk return tells the whole story. That mainly you've got to have a lot of capital to start trading to see any appreciable returns. Otherwise you have to nickle and dime your way to large amounts of capital through investing small amounts of isk, and refreshing your screen every thirty seconds. No thanks. And as someone who has a billion isk in his wallet, I wouldn't hand it over to anyone on the promise of a 80 million isk return. Flatly, no. I expect from my investments 100% return--at least--especially if I'm dropping 1 billion isk. And before you say, "wishful thinking," your wrong. It is possible to get this type of return over a couple weeks, with a lot less work that 5 accounts in the trade hubs... refreshing the market data every 30 seconds. -Karlemgne
Calamity Jali JellyBeans	Posted - 2007.12.30 19:48:00 - [64] Originally by: Alski ps: to all traders who bought those encryption method skillbooks for 160m (that are now 25m) yeah... sorrey that was me, but its all your own fault this is why sometimes if you can't keep on the ball, its better to chalk the sales tax up as a loss and cancle the order pity there are so many mean people about... why hide all that gear then release it in bulk.... bad bad pricing.
flashfreaking LFC FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.12.30 20:22:00 - [65] Edited by: flashfreaking on 30/12/2007 20:23:05 Nice read, might consider this Disallowed sig graphic. Send an e-mail to [email protected] when it meets the forum signature guidelines. ~Saint
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.30 20:29:00 - [66] Originally by: Karlemgne Great guide! Now let me explain something to you. First, I play eve to have fun, not to work. I don't want to get two, three, or four accounts to sit in trading hubs, refreshing markets every 30 seconds to try and beat people's "buy and sell" orders by fracking .01 isk. On top of that, to be quite honest the return on investment is too small for most people. This whole for every 1 billion isk invested you see an 80 million isk return tells the whole story. That mainly you've got to have a lot of capital to start trading to see any appreciable returns. Otherwise you have to nickle and dime your way to large amounts of capital through investing small amounts of isk, and refreshing your screen every thirty seconds. No thanks. And as someone who has a billion isk in his wallet, I wouldn't hand it over to anyone on the promise of a 80 million isk return. Flatly, no. I expect from my investments 100% return--at least--especially if I'm dropping 1 billion isk. And before you say, "wishful thinking," your wrong. It is possible to get this type of return over a couple weeks, with a lot less work that 5 accounts in the trade hubs... refreshing the market data every 30 seconds. -Karlemgne stop crying this kind of return can be done about a few dozen times a day when you trade so in your 3 weeks using 1 billion without the hassle someone else can make much more and if you think you cant compete unless you update your orders 0.01 isk all day then you really have no idea and need to either try it and test it or stop talking about something you so obviously havent tried for more than a second Trashed sig, Shark was here
Big Zulu Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.30 20:39:00 - [67] CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF!?!?!?!?!!!!ONEONE!!ELEVEN!!!??? _________ I has bree..
Corporati Capitalis Tollan Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.30 21:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Karlemgne I expect from my investments 100% return--at least--especially if I'm dropping 1 billion isk. And before you say, "wishful thinking," your wrong. It is possible to get this type of return over a couple weeks, with a lot less work that 5 accounts in the trade hubs... refreshing the market data every 30 seconds. So why don't you have more than 1 billion if it's so easy, then?
Militis Kolosok Caldari Praetorian BlackGuard	Posted - 2007.12.30 21:28:00 - [69] Now is this more profitable in Rens/Oursulaert/Etc or in Jita? Because in Jita everyone updates extremely fast.
NateX THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.30 22:00:00 - [70] can i have some capital to start off with ? R0ADKILL-killboard \|
Holly Hotdrop	Posted - 2007.12.31 03:23:00 - [71] HMMMZ
antientity	Posted - 2007.12.31 08:24:00 - [72] This thread is quite general. My trade alts have been trading for 3 years now, in every market through ups and downs. I try to stay away from the constant .01s but thats getting harder. Mostly due to stupid traders who like to directly compete when its not needed, its better to share areas then to try to own it. If i get outbid at all hours of the day i usually end up driving up the market by millions since i'm not going to ever be on top for long. It's spite. But I'm a friend to the people who sell to buy orders since they are all much richer. I tend to skip out on good deals cause I'm lazy. More often then not it turns out well. I prefer to play safe sometimes. At a certain point with billions unused, faction ships, mods its easier to do nothing. I have spent 8 hours .01ing people that i can only conclude could be farmers editing dozens of orders for hours. Fun comes in manipulation, making other traders lose Isk. Or driving up the market then crashing it while making money on both sides. Losing money can be fun when you know it cost your competitors 10x. It is amazing how much manipulation happens if you watch closely. Jita is where most the games are played. So i can see how you lose billions if you just edit orders. I have considered writing guides before, the couple i have written for friends. They always go wow, i never though of any of that stuff. Topics about psychological behavior of purchasers and other traders, fairly endless. The entire billion isk has to be a catch phrase. You have to be inhuman to .01 that many high volume market orders. There is defiantly some markets where people need to buy in where some of the less intelligent people spent 10s of billions on risky buys based on what happened last time but forgoing the thought process of whats different this time around. It still takes isk to make isk. But you have to be a certain type of person to deal with trading. There are many other ways or small nitches in every area. Ive seen people make killings everywhere, sometimes to ridiculous to be allowed, and its not exactly trading. Certainly seldom ever talked about and maybe thought about less. One thing is for sure, its a daily cut throat activity. Or at least a grind. It may not seem like it at first but it gets bad. It can make you avoid the game just cause it turns into work. It all depends on how you play and what you value most.
Mallikan Gallente Spartan Hoplites Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.12.31 09:31:00 - [73] Currently, this has turned into a great thing to do either between missions, or instead of 0.0 stuff. Why? I don't know, my mind works weird sometimes. Next week I'll probably want to pvp all the time. Or maybe I'll end up uninteresting in EVE for a week again. But right now, this is awesome. --- lol.. I messed up.
Lady Beauvoir Slutty Witches	Posted - 2007.12.31 10:00:00 - [74] Edited by: Lady Beauvoir on 31/12/2007 10:00:28 Originally by: Calamity Jali Originally by: Alski ps: to all traders who bought those encryption method skillbooks for 160m (that are now 25m) yeah... sorrey that was me, but its all your own fault this is why sometimes if you can't keep on the ball, its better to chalk the sales tax up as a loss and cancle the order pity there are so many mean people about... why hide all that gear then release it in bulk.... bad bad pricing. No, a very good play. If the prices drop that much and they don't get back up, then there were too many items on the market and the price would have dropped down to that in any case. What he did was to get most ISK out of his items while leaving his competitors in the red and dictated when and how the prices would crash. Trading is about earning more than others. If everyone is a billionaire, it doesn't really matter if you are, right? The more ISK you have in comparison to others gives you more possibilities to play with the market to earn more. Just like flying an officer fitted vindicator makes you able to take two battleships head on and winning. "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaet point." -Blaise Pascal, PensTes, 4, 277
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar Storm Legion	Posted - 2007.12.31 10:08:00 - [75] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 31/12/2007 10:11:01 Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton someone once said buy low sell high and i figured all this out myself and i never understood the people who go to sell an item and undercut by more than .01 isk. hey look the market value is 10mil, guess i will sell for 9mil!!!! Lol I do that all the time, usually 500k-1mil cheaper cause I don't want to have to go back to a trade hub a day later to find the price dropped on them and drop my sell price by 2 mil when I could have sold it 1 mil cheaper the day I was there. Also the only way you could possibly think undercutting by 0.01 isk would actually sell is if you sat in the system monitoring it.. otherwise someone else will undercut by 0.01 again and your item will sit there ad infinitum :p _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Militis Kolosok Caldari Praetorian BlackGuard	Posted - 2007.12.31 17:33:00 - [76] I can confirm that the return isn't that great. I spent around 3 hours off and on trading in the last 24 hours and made about 40 mil or so. More than running level 4s, but it's also less fun.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.12.31 17:57:00 - [77] Buy low, sell high. Got it. --
Sadayiel Caldari Dragon Highlords Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.12.31 18:03:00 - [78] I know some ppl that make tons of isk by trading, sometimes due buying in empire selling at 0.0 or it's borders. one a way i like the post it helps to open eyes about how to make some profit when you have very little time to play actively and you remain docked in a station, if you have enough isk. in the other hand, maybe someone is selling a lot more of items due a well subtle guide pointing a specific item. Anyway merry X-mas to all and CCP where is our snowball launchers!!! -------------------------------------- You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here.
Arianna D	Posted - 2007.12.31 18:16:00 - [79] Are there any apps you use to help you trade?
Felysta Sandorn System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.31 18:22:00 - [80] Originally by: Nightfreeze If I weren't quitting EVE... Your stuff... May I? A few bil at least... I'm wanting a few new ships! Cheers... Latest Video, Click Here!
Sandor Krejaa	Posted - 2007.12.31 18:37:00 - [81] Short version of the guide... "Buy low, sell high" Guaranteed to make the most money with that tactic
Ursula LeGuinn	Posted - 2007.12.31 18:39:00 - [82] Originally by: Arianna D Are there any apps you use to help you trade? Traders, like magicians, don't like to give away trade "secrets". If you're a person of at least average intelligence, you can trade successfully in EVE. More competition means lesser profits for existing traders, so while I imagine the hardcore traders use various different Web sites, applets, and what-have-you to aid in their trading, you'll have to find these things on your own.
phalanxTW F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.12.31 18:57:00 - [83] these "how to make fortunes" threads always omit the rather important part about requiring several billions of initial liquid isk but yea, your stuff me thx
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders	Posted - 2007.12.31 19:37:00 - [84] Originally by: Vodun Edited by: Vodun on 30/12/2007 06:18:07 To be perfectly honest, I can't stand carebear crap like this, but keeping with the honesty, you've actually made it sound quite interesting. Making me consider starting up a trading alt just to check it out. I'm not sure I'd call traders carebears . . . traders can be every bit as ruthless, if not moreso, as those who shoot others up for fun/ISK. And they probably risk more ISK in their version of PvP. . . . Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 30/12/2007 07:29:20 A thousand challengers appeared. You just made a lot of tight-lipped traders very unhappy. I for one welcome the competition, but would like to point out this is not for everybody. It requires, as mentioned, a large amount of starting capital to worth your time, as well as the very frequent presence of a character in the region you are trading in. The main problem faced by people who take up trading is that they make an unwise or unlucky investment and lose a lot of ISK, spread your investments between different, and preferably unrelated or inversely related, items and... Don't invest what you can't afford to lose. Though, of course, all the new people trying to become traders will present easy targets for those that know what they're doing. . . . grins evilly
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.12.31 19:41:00 - [85] To this I would add, don't stay in an overcrowded trade, don't stay through a market top, and don't get whipsawed. The 'next big thing' is a disaster waiting to happen as soon as everyone piles into it, new highs are only supported as long as it takes the big players to offload their inventory, and volatility plays are nice when they work, but they have a way of taking everything back later. Unless you trade mostly for the thrill of risk and have time to burn, your time will be spent more effectively making a constant steady return in a secondary hub not saturated with competition. Although I will not deny the lunacy of Jita is fun for arbitrage trades. EVE CCG Trinity Booster
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders	Posted - 2007.12.31 19:59:00 - [86] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Also the only way you could possibly think undercutting by 0.01 isk would actually sell is if you sat in the system monitoring it.. otherwise someone else will undercut by 0.01 again and your item will sit there ad infinitum :p You realize, of course, that the same applies to undercutting by any amount? Unless, of course, you undercut so much that you're taking a loss, in which case a sensible person with enough ISK might just buy your items and resell them at a much higher price (done that), you undercut enough so that you're selling below the value of the minerals in the item, in which case a smart person would just buy your items and refine them (done that), or you just undercut by such a huge by still profitable percentage that others are too stunned, stupified, and angery to do anything right away. Which will buy you maybe an extra day before they undercut you by .01 ISK. So, really, the only way you could think that undercutting by large amounts would be a good idea is, well . . . I really can't see any. Sorry, a bunch of items I was selling for my corp were undercut by a huge amount today and are now selling for about 60% of what I was selling them yesterday. Which is still three times what is costs to make them, but extremely annoying.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.12.31 20:05:00 - [87] The best undercut is when they cut below the price in a different region without realising it and cover your shipping. You can double or triple your money when that happens. EVE CCG Trinity Booster
Iria Ahrens Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.31 21:39:00 - [88] Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 31/12/2007 21:41:37 My only complaint about this thread is the typical station trader elitism, unjustified I might add. Reading a station trader's description of trading is like reading a brain surgeon's description being a doctor, but only describing the brain surgery part of it. Station trading, or daytrading is just a subset of trading. And relatively the least important one. Daytraders provide no real service other than maintaining the liquidity of the market, just as real life daytraders do. Otherwise, they are just parasites. Every form of trading has advantages and disadvantages. Daytrading is no different. Playing the spread in one station is nothing like playing the spread cross regions. Unlike the insinuation made in the OP, it is not necessary to haul in null sec or low sec to make a billion or more a day as a freight trader. Reading this guide is really just a repeat of any RW daytrading guide, which I've read many. What people who specialize in daytrading, and get all elitist about it, fail to realize is they are not the most profitable form of trading. Still, making billions a day routinely requires billions of isk in seed money. To hit some unanswered questions asked in this thread. Q. "Why would someone undercut by more than .01 isk. A. Opportunity cost. There is a difference between priced for profit and priced to sell. When someone prices to sell, they are looking at another investment opportunity and the anticipated profits of re-investing that money somewhere else exceeds the anticipated loss of undercutting by .01 Isk. Lower prices are usually more liquid, so the seller posts at a more liquid price. Q. Is this guy taking credit for someone else's guide. A. I doubt it. This is pretty standard daytrading strategy. There are plenty of books written about the subject in RL, but it's not that difficult to figure out after doing standard research. Q. Where do people get the money to do this? A. Lots of ways. When I first started trading, I ran contracts until I could afford a sigil, then I filling buy orders. If you have low seed money, the opportunity cost of creating sell orders rather than filling buy orders is greater. As you acquire more isk, the opportunity costs flips so issuing buy orders and creating sell orders is more beneficial than filling existing orders. At this point, you might want to start toeing into daytrading. But not before.
Uchuu Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2007.12.31 22:39:00 - [89] Nice thread. Many good things already said about it. I'll add another important thing. Everything that I have put on the market has sold. There is nothing that never sold in 3 months. I used to play the .01 isk game, then undercut prices by a huge some, wait for fools to .01 me, buy their stuff, and sell at 50% higher value, like others have done in this thread. I'll add one more thing. It gets really boring and repetitive playing the market game like this all the time. Which made me eventually just leave sell orders at extreme high values and continue doing what I like in this game. It's just not worth my time if I'm not having fun.
Holly Hotdrop	Posted - 2008.01.01 00:57:00 - [90] oh wow, i thought the OP sounded a bit optimistic or something, but i've made 2bn the last days just by trading minmatar t2 ships. this is incredible, thanks Nightfreeze
Karlemgne Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.01 01:07:00 - [91] Originally by: Garion Avarr Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Also the only way you could possibly think undercutting by 0.01 isk would actually sell is if you sat in the system monitoring it.. otherwise someone else will undercut by 0.01 again and your item will sit there ad infinitum :p You realize, of course, that the same applies to undercutting by any amount? Unless, of course, you undercut so much that you're taking a loss, in which case a sensible person with enough ISK might just buy your items and resell them at a much higher price (done that), you undercut enough so that you're selling below the value of the minerals in the item, in which case a smart person would just buy your items and refine them (done that), or you just undercut by such a huge by still profitable percentage that others are too stunned, stupified, and angery to do anything right away. Which will buy you maybe an extra day before they undercut you by .01 ISK. So, really, the only way you could think that undercutting by large amounts would be a good idea is, well . . . I really can't see any. Sorry, a bunch of items I was selling for my corp were undercut by a huge amount today and are now selling for about 60% of what I was selling them yesterday. Which is still three times what is costs to make them, but extremely annoying. Or your a pirate, and perhaps a mission runner, and you've gotten the item "for free." In which case, undercutting the average price by large amounts of isk doesn't really generate a "loss." You could also be a miner/manufactorer who is interested in a quick return, and not spending hours trying to maximize your profit. Its all a matter of how you want to play the game. For most of us, the thought of investing the time it takes to maximizing profits by min/maxing buy and sell values detracts from the other parts of the game we find to be more fun. OR... it detracts from out lives, since for most of us this is a game, not our second life. -Karlemgne
Karlemgne Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.01 01:26:00 - [92] Originally by: Holly Hotdrop oh wow, i thought the OP sounded a bit optimistic or something, but i've made 2bn the last days just by trading minmatar t2 ships. this is incredible, thanks Nightfreeze Hello, Ms. Alt.
me bored	Posted - 2008.01.01 02:11:00 - [93] I thought that everybody did this already.
Ursula LeGuinn	Posted - 2008.01.01 02:15:00 - [94] Originally by: me bored I thought that everybody did this already. A lot of people (like me) know how to do it, but would rather have fun actually playing the game, even if we make less money in the long run.
Lab Technician071548 Astro-Support Services	Posted - 2008.01.01 02:41:00 - [95] The world is full of 1-iskers. Unfortunately, there are now also cheating tools out there making it impossible to keep up, which is why I got out of trading. Honestly, this sounds like the kind of note a trader writes because he no longer trades! Why would a person who trades at hubs encourage others to go there and 1-isk unless he's done trading because of 1-iskers? I'm afraid this is bait cast by a retired trader and many have swallowed hook line and sinker. hint: trade secondary hubs and mission points and hope nobody finds that you are making money there. ---- Do you need special permission to type in this color?
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar Storm Legion	Posted - 2008.01.01 03:49:00 - [96] Quote: You realize, of course, that the same applies to undercutting by any amount? Unless, of course, you undercut so much that you're taking a loss It's not a loss if you didn't buy it in the first place. I'm more than happy to sell my items cheap enough so that someone else who makes their money through trading will want to buy it and resell it higher, that way I don't have to monitor the market, let someone else do it and my undercutting will be like a 'tip' for them :) _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Holly Hotdrop	Posted - 2008.01.01 05:00:00 - [97] Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Holly Hotdrop oh wow, i thought the OP sounded a bit optimistic or something, but i've made 2bn the last days just by trading minmatar t2 ships. this is incredible, thanks Nightfreeze Hello, Ms. Alt. Hello
Kaathar Rielspar Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.01 05:08:00 - [98] meh too much effort ship it all to lowsec and charge 400-500% of jita prices. lazy people will pay it because at the root of it all, people are lazy ____________________
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders The Colbert Nation	Posted - 2008.01.01 07:30:00 - [99] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: You realize, of course, that the same applies to undercutting by any amount? Unless, of course, you undercut so much that you're taking a loss It's not a loss if you didn't buy it in the first place. I'm more than happy to sell my items cheap enough so that someone else who makes their money through trading will want to buy it and resell it higher, that way I don't have to monitor the market, let someone else do it and my undercutting will be like a 'tip' for them :) Ah, perhaps poor wording on my part -- I meant you won't get undercut back if the person you undercut can't do so without taking a loss on the sale. Though, in my opinion, anytime you sell an item for less then you could have if you'd been smart, you're taking a loss. As long as you'd have sold it within an acceptable amount of time at the hire price, of course -- if you reduce your profit margin by 25% to sell it 50% faster, that's good, as long as you can keep your supply up with the demand. If you reduce your profit margin by 50% to sell 25% faster, that's not good. And the second is what I see most of. By the way, I'm not really including relatively small sell orders in this -- if 100 items sell a day, I'm not going to pay any attention when I get undercut by a 10 item sell order (or buy order, for that matter). Likewise, I won't even bother making my order lower (or higher) priced than the small orders if enough items are sold that I think my order is likely to still be filled in an acceptable time. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Tido Maliyu Condottieri Industries The Economy	Posted - 2008.01.01 07:36:00 - [100] Whelp... don't gimme all this competition!
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2008.01.01 07:39:00 - [101] Edited by: MysticNZ on 01/01/2008 07:40:55 I do the same thing. I see you sell alot of what I sell actually. However, to make the sort of money you are talking about is a huge amount of time and effort. You can only make this money on weekends as well. Market is dead during the week. You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 1-2b +
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.01.01 08:56:00 - [102] Originally by: MysticNZ You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 10-20b + Fixed it for you. This signature is brought to you by EBankÖ, free space for moderators to brag.
Xonkra Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.01 09:15:00 - [103] why make billions , when you can make MILLIONS muhahaha muahahahahahaha muhahahahahahahahahahahah muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha muahammm mmmm sigh Originally by: Illyria Ambri No matter how you want to say it.. it always sounds like frog clearing throat "Ve zurrendur, dunt schuut"
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2008.01.01 10:30:00 - [104] "To be perfectly honest, I can't stand carebear crap like this, but keeping with the honesty, you've actually made it sound quite interesting. Making me consider starting up a trading alt just to check it out." got some nerve to talk smack about carebear crap and immediately then convict yourself of an even LARGER weak arse carebear pile of crap yourself.... ALT = MASSIVE, maybe the most friggin carebear gimptard cop out act in this game. Man this game would have been so much better if there was 1 dam character per account, so all the total fruitcake pussies couldn;t use alt's to avoid everything that is supposed to make eve what it is supposed to be.
Leora Nomen Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.01 10:40:00 - [105] Originally by: MysticNZ Edited by: MysticNZ on 01/01/2008 07:40:55 I do the same thing. I see you sell alot of what I sell actually. However, to make the sort of money you are talking about is a huge amount of time and effort. You can only make this money on weekends as well. Market is dead during the week. You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 1-2b + nah, you only need to have some social engineering skills, can make 20b wallet from 200K wallet in just a few weeks guide to game time codes
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.01.01 11:03:00 - [106] Originally by: Leora Nomen Originally by: MysticNZ Edited by: MysticNZ on 01/01/2008 07:40:55 I do the same thing. I see you sell alot of what I sell actually. However, to make the sort of money you are talking about is a huge amount of time and effort. You can only make this money on weekends as well. Market is dead during the week. You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 1-2b + nah, you only need to have some social engineering skills, can make 20b wallet from 200K wallet in just a few weeks ... But this of course requires you to do scamming, right? This signature is brought to you by EBankÖ, free space for moderators to brag.
Leora Nomen Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.01 11:09:00 - [107] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Leora Nomen Originally by: MysticNZ Edited by: MysticNZ on 01/01/2008 07:40:55 I do the same thing. I see you sell alot of what I sell actually. However, to make the sort of money you are talking about is a huge amount of time and effort. You can only make this money on weekends as well. Market is dead during the week. You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 1-2b + nah, you only need to have some social engineering skills, can make 20b wallet from 200K wallet in just a few weeks ... But this of course requires you to do scamming, right? ofc, to make a lot of isk out of no isk guide to game time codes
Tarnish Cathair GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.01 11:51:00 - [108] Originally by: Chribba I wonder if OP is taking credit for someone elses guide or if you are the same person as the one posting this guide on the Goon forums? No worries there. Its the same person.
Dravius Luxor	Posted - 2008.01.01 13:48:00 - [109] Originally by: Lab Technician071548 The world is full of 1-iskers. Unfortunately, there are now also cheating tools out there making it impossible to keep up, which is why I got out of trading. Honestly, this sounds like the kind of note a trader writes because he no longer trades! Why would a person who trades at hubs encourage others to go there and 1-isk unless he's done trading because of 1-iskers? I'm afraid this is bait cast by a retired trader and many have swallowed hook line and sinker. hint: trade secondary hubs and mission points and hope nobody finds that you are making money there. I find I can quite easily torture 1-iskers, because they usually invest too much. When I trade; I don't care how much I make per item, as long as I make something and the items sell quick. In this way you can cost them billions by slaughtering the market value of an item, and this scares them away. Come back to that item when you so choose, and start again. This takes care of macro-traders too, who 1-isk automatically. They're selling 58 items at 18,999,999.99 ; so I sell ONE item at 10,000,000.00 ... As if by magic, the trader of 58 items has instantaneously changed his sell order to 9,999,999.99, which is cheaper than his buy order. Oops! Overall though, a highly entertaining thread. It just goes to show that there are infinite ways to make money in Eve, it all depends on one's imagination...
Kaar Art of War	Posted - 2008.01.01 14:23:00 - [110] Originally by: Dravius Luxor I find I can quite easily torture 1-iskers, because they usually invest too much. When I trade; I don't care how much I make per item, as long as I make something and the items sell quick. In this way you can cost them billions by slaughtering the market value of an item, and this scares them away. Come back to that item when you so choose, and start again. This takes care of macro-traders too, who 1-isk automatically. They're selling 58 items at 18,999,999.99 ; so I sell ONE item at 10,000,000.00 ... As if by magic, the trader of 58 items has instantaneously changed his sell order to 9,999,999.99, which is cheaper than his buy order. Oops! I love doing that. I lowered one of the datacore markets by quite a lot just to **** on the people who kept 1-isking me. --- ---
SL Helper	Posted - 2008.01.01 15:48:00 - [111] Another big difference between conventional isk-making and trading is that trading needs to be maintained thruout the whole day. You won't make much money by "powertrading" for 2 hours in a day. Instead you'll have to log in several times a day and update your orders (there's usually alot of them if you want to make any serious cash). Another thing is that it can, unlike missionrunning, mining ect, be very dangerous to take a brake from Eve when you are a trader. few days abscense can make you loose a ****load due to old orders.
aklein24 Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.01.01 20:12:00 - [112] Nightfreeze, you're my hero, if you're the guy who wrote and did "the great scam" way back in the early days of eve, you're the reason I'm playing now. Cheers, and a happy new year to you, have fun in RL.
Iria Ahrens Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.01 20:44:00 - [113] Originally by: Dravius Luxor Originally by: Lab Technician071548 This takes care of macro-traders too, who 1-isk automatically. They're selling 58 items at 18,999,999.99 ; so I sell ONE item at 10,000,000.00 ... As if by magic, the trader of 58 items has instantaneously changed his sell order to 9,999,999.99, which is cheaper than his buy order. Oops! Overall though, a highly entertaining thread. It just goes to show that there are infinite ways to make money in Eve, it all depends on one's imagination... Wow, I guess I don't deal in the markets that macro traders frequent, but I'll keep this in mind if I ever suspect this is the case. What a wonderful idea. I guess it still needs to be slightly above the highest buy order. I've seen sell orders at stations that are lower than the highest buy order before, so maybe it was bugged, or maybe something else.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.01 21:42:00 - [114] Originally by: SL Helper Another thing is that it can, unlike missionrunning, mining ect, be very dangerous to take a brake from Eve when you are a trader. few days abscense can make you loose a ****load due to old orders. plan ahead Trashed sig, Shark was here
SL Helper	Posted - 2008.01.01 22:10:00 - [115] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: SL Helper Another thing is that it can, unlike missionrunning, mining ect, be very dangerous to take a brake from Eve when you are a trader. few days abscense can make you loose a ****load due to old orders. plan ahead Yes, you'll need to be aware of every possible break that you might do if you don't want to risk loosing money. Unlike other ways of making money taking an sudden break is dangerous.
Cyrus Deacon	Posted - 2008.01.01 22:50:00 - [116] sits back with his cup of coffee and begins to watch the market crash.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.01 23:01:00 - [117] Originally by: SL Helper Originally by: SiJira Originally by: SL Helper Another thing is that it can, unlike missionrunning, mining ect, be very dangerous to take a brake from Eve when you are a trader. few days abscense can make you loose a ****load due to old orders. plan ahead Yes, you'll need to be aware of every possible break that you might do if you don't want to risk loosing money. Unlike other ways of making money taking an sudden break is dangerous. its called not being a lemming and upping your buy order just because theres one above yours trading isnt for everyone Trashed sig, Shark was here
Twinstrike	Posted - 2008.01.25 04:29:00 - [118] Nightfreeze. This Nightfreeze?
Don Z0LA Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2008.01.25 09:59:00 - [119] very nice guide, and very nice of you to share it with others... pitty i dont have time to do it, so if you are quiting - can i have your stuff ? :)
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.26 19:04:00 - [120] its really sad when someone gives everyone advice on how to trade and then everyone says its bad advice because they cant wrap their head around the concept and instead focus on the example items Trashed sig, Shark was here
CanCleaner	Posted - 2008.01.26 19:11:00 - [121] how to make money ? trade coolant at Jita, if you are able to get there sometimes.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.26 19:46:00 - [122] Originally by: CanCleaner how to make money ? trade coolant at Jita, if you are able to get there sometimes. trade outside of jita and far away Trashed sig, Shark was here
Slyton Silur	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:42:00 - [123] Questions. Do you have to move out of the station? or do you just sit at the station, putting up buy orders and sell them again at the same station for a bit higher price? or do you buy from one place and move it to another place?
Ursula LeGuinn Versus Gloria Omnis	Posted - 2008.01.27 18:55:00 - [124] Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn on 27/01/2008 18:56:10 Originally by: Slyton Silur Questions. Do you have to move out of the station? or do you just sit at the station, putting up buy orders and sell them again at the same station for a bit higher price? or do you buy from one place and move it to another place? You can do all of those things, and some are as lucrative as or, in some cases, more lucrative than trading in Jita. But the most commonly talked-about method only requires you to sit in Jita IV, Moon 4, Caldari Navy Assembly Plant, placing buy and sell orders with whatever capital you have in your wallet. You don't ever have to leave it, go anywhere, or haul anything. It's extremely lucrative once you you get the hang of it, but time-intensive, and doesn't give truly staggering returns until you have billions to invest (i.e., a billion a day would take many billions in the bank to invest, I should think). ________________
Captain Campion Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:40:00 - [125] yea but now all those things r **** coz everyone knows about it, thanks for screwing that up.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:36:00 - [126] Edited by: SiJira on 28/01/2008 16:36:33 Originally by: Captain Campion yea but now all those things r **** coz everyone knows about it, thanks for screwing that up. he gave you a method not a list of items that are always more profitable than your average pay per minute of a mission Trashed sig, Shark was here
Bazman Caldari Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:47:00 - [127] I can't help but think there are many people trying this and failing. I recently gathered all my assets in one location that i've gathered over the last couple of years and began selling the whole lot off (amazing how much isk you have sitting around after a while) I wanted quick sales so listed my items 10% below the regional average so they would sell relatively quickly. Now bearing in mind that the majority of the stuff i was selling was low quantities with high values (2 or 3 T2 425mm Railguns here, 1 or 2 Neutron Blaster Cannon II's there etc) people who had stacks of 50 or more of these items were undercutting my 10% cheaper price by 0.1 isk. How thick can people get, they could wait 20 mins or so for the item to sell but don't, instead they wipe a good 10% off a huge number of items just so they have the prime position. I just lolled and undercut them an hour or so later again :s I have been looking at doing serious trading lately, but after having done my little clearance sale, I realised just how excruciating it is to modify lots of market orders (I only had 57 on a newb alt, screw doing it with tycoon lvl 5 :P) I'm happy to buy some low priced stuff and ship it to sell in 0.0 to make isk rather than sit hunched over the keyboard all day modifying orders. I make lots of money from it still, and I'm not all to bothered how fast the isk comes to me. To each their own i guess. -----
Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:55:00 - [128] Originally by: Twinstrike Nightfreeze. This Nightfreeze? I'm very curious about this.... Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:07:00 - [129] Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Twinstrike Nightfreeze. This Nightfreeze? I'm very curious about this.... its just a well written fiction story based on the real big scam Trashed sig, Shark was here
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:16:00 - [130] Quote: Now bearing in mind that the majority of the stuff i was selling was low quantities with high values (2 or 3 T2 425mm Railguns here, 1 or 2 Neutron Blaster Cannon II's there etc) people who had stacks of 50 or more of these items were undercutting my 10% cheaper price by 0.1 isk. How thick can people get, they could wait 20 mins or so for the item to sell but don't, instead they wipe a good 10% off a huge number of items just so they have the prime position. I just lolled and undercut them an hour or so later again :s Agreed - I see stuff like that as well, and it almost convinces me it's some macro running or some other automated process. No trader could be that dumb, could they? They'd take a 10% hit on 200 items in order to undercut a sell order for a single unit? I either undercut them again by a significant amount, or buy their sutff, if it's suddenly ridiculously cheaply priced.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:18:00 - [131] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: Now bearing in mind that the majority of the stuff i was selling was low quantities with high values (2 or 3 T2 425mm Railguns here, 1 or 2 Neutron Blaster Cannon II's there etc) people who had stacks of 50 or more of these items were undercutting my 10% cheaper price by 0.1 isk. How thick can people get, they could wait 20 mins or so for the item to sell but don't, instead they wipe a good 10% off a huge number of items just so they have the prime position. I just lolled and undercut them an hour or so later again :s Agreed - I see stuff like that as well, and it almost convinces me it's some macro running or some other automated process. No trader could be that dumb, could they? They'd take a 10% hit on 200 items in order to undercut a sell order for a single unit? I either undercut them again by a significant amount, or buy their sutff, if it's suddenly ridiculously cheaply priced. a trader will do anything to reduce competition long term profits Trashed sig, Shark was here
Bazman Caldari Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:52:00 - [132] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Ulstan Quote: Now bearing in mind that the majority of the stuff i was selling was low quantities with high values (2 or 3 T2 425mm Railguns here, 1 or 2 Neutron Blaster Cannon II's there etc) people who had stacks of 50 or more of these items were undercutting my 10% cheaper price by 0.1 isk. How thick can people get, they could wait 20 mins or so for the item to sell but don't, instead they wipe a good 10% off a huge number of items just so they have the prime position. I just lolled and undercut them an hour or so later again :s Agreed - I see stuff like that as well, and it almost convinces me it's some macro running or some other automated process. No trader could be that dumb, could they? They'd take a 10% hit on 200 items in order to undercut a sell order for a single unit? I either undercut them again by a significant amount, or buy their sutff, if it's suddenly ridiculously cheaply priced. a trader will do anything to reduce competition long term profits Best way to have done that would have been to either buy up the 10% lower items and resell, or to wait 10 mins for it to have cleared... -----
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:58:00 - [133] Originally by: Bazman Originally by: SiJira a trader will do anything to reduce competition long term profits Best way to have done that would have been to either buy up the 10% lower items and resell, or to wait 10 mins for it to have cleared... for you to come back with twice as many a few minutes hours or days later? no thank you Trashed sig, Shark was here
Ursula LeGuinn Versus Gloria Omnis	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:00:00 - [134] Originally by: Bazman I'm happy to buy some low priced stuff and ship it to sell in 0.0 to make isk rather than sit hunched over the keyboard all day modifying orders. That pretty much sums up my opinion, as well. ________________
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:06:00 - [135] Quote: a trader will do anything to reduce competition long term profits You obviously failed to understand the example given. There is no competition and the trader is badly reducing his long term profits. Maybe you're one of these clueless traders? What region do you trade in? I could use some more folks who can't accurately evaluate potential competitors or correctly calculate profits :)
Hitme Harder HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:13:00 - [136] How to ruin the ability to make money trading. Post about it in the general forums. That worked really well with datacores too. AREN'T THEY ADORABLE?
Herredsvela Gallente Carpe Diem Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:44:00 - [137] /pat
SiJira	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:09:00 - [138] Originally by: Hitme Harder How to ruin the ability to make money trading. Post about it in the general forums. That worked really well with datacores too. that item was an example Trashed sig, Shark was here
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:10:00 - [139] Originally by: Hitme Harder How to ruin the ability to make money trading. Post about it in the general forums. That worked really well with datacores too. What? butthurt because there's now 3 guys constantly undercutting your sales and overbidding your buys? (one of them is me ) --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur

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