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Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.01.06 03:27:00 - [151] Originally by: Nathanial Victor i read this thread yesterday (lots of good stuff in here from you guys that did your homework) and finally got around to posting a question on the topic. seems to me that while the vargur is a bit odd and some of the other races ships are more convenient (how the hell did gallente get the web bonus!?!?) it has 2 things that seem to me might make up for everything else... 1) falloff bonus + tracking bonus = badarse autocannons. Due to fittings i've tried to think up, i think it would be silly to cram howies on here. due to other fitting reqs 800's even might be too much. well thats ok, i like dual 650s better anyways when it comes to a tempest, then i got to thinking about that tracking speed bonus. with 650's, i see this as a ship that (if its not jammed) can be smacking around all but the fastest frig hulls out to 40km+ , i gotta say that if tested that proves true, wtf man... what else you want? no vagabond would come w/in 50km of you! 2) doesn't it have what could be the best tank of all 4? Unfortunately it is a 6 mid slot shield tanker. Because of this, it cannot effectively tackle. A web bonus would have been wasted.
Nathanial Victor Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.01.06 03:34:00 - [152] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Nathanial Victor i read this thread yesterday (lots of good stuff in here from you guys that did your homework) and finally got around to posting a question on the topic. seems to me that while the vargur is a bit odd and some of the other races ships are more convenient (how the hell did gallente get the web bonus!?!?) it has 2 things that seem to me might make up for everything else... 1) falloff bonus + tracking bonus = badarse autocannons. Due to fittings i've tried to think up, i think it would be silly to cram howies on here. due to other fitting reqs 800's even might be too much. well thats ok, i like dual 650s better anyways when it comes to a tempest, then i got to thinking about that tracking speed bonus. with 650's, i see this as a ship that (if its not jammed) can be smacking around all but the fastest frig hulls out to 40km+ , i gotta say that if tested that proves true, wtf man... what else you want? no vagabond would come w/in 50km of you! 2) doesn't it have what could be the best tank of all 4? Unfortunately it is a 6 mid slot shield tanker. Because of this, it cannot effectively tackle. A web bonus would have been wasted. good call... but webbys aside, the falloff + tracking thing, is it as useful as i'm thinking it may be? "one more spam thread will get you a warning. - Thanks Hutch. " isn't a warning of a warning a warning? or just a warning of a warning? didnt he just get 'the warning'? my head hurts
Slide	Posted - 2008.01.07 09:03:00 - [153] Originally by: Nathanial Victor i read this thread yesterday (lots of good stuff in here from you guys that did your homework) and finally got around to posting a question on the topic. seems to me that while the vargur is a bit odd and some of the other races ships are more convenient (how the hell did gallente get the web bonus!?!?) it has 2 things that seem to me might make up for everything else... 1) falloff bonus + tracking bonus = badarse autocannons. Due to fittings i've tried to think up, i think it would be silly to cram howies on here. due to other fitting reqs 800's even might be too much. well thats ok, i like dual 650s better anyways when it comes to a tempest, then i got to thinking about that tracking speed bonus. with 650's, i see this as a ship that (if its not jammed) can be smacking around all but the fastest frig hulls out to 40km+ , i gotta say that if tested that proves true, wtf man... what else you want? no vagabond would come w/in 50km of you! 2) doesn't it have what could be the best tank of all 4? thx ahead for the answers, matar forever! Don't forget in this thread we mainly talked about doin missions with that ship, in most missions you would still be far better of using artillery. You might talk about pvp here, but i don't see people using this ship in the mass for pvp any time soon, with the price tag around 700/800 Million. About point 2, i won't say it isn't a good tank, but why exactly does it make the best tank of them all?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.07 10:41:00 - [154] Originally by: Slide Originally by: Nathanial Victor i read this thread yesterday (lots of good stuff in here from you guys that did your homework) and finally got around to posting a question on the topic. seems to me that while the vargur is a bit odd and some of the other races ships are more convenient (how the hell did gallente get the web bonus!?!?) it has 2 things that seem to me might make up for everything else... 1) falloff bonus + tracking bonus = badarse autocannons. Due to fittings i've tried to think up, i think it would be silly to cram howies on here. due to other fitting reqs 800's even might be too much. well thats ok, i like dual 650s better anyways when it comes to a tempest, then i got to thinking about that tracking speed bonus. with 650's, i see this as a ship that (if its not jammed) can be smacking around all but the fastest frig hulls out to 40km+ , i gotta say that if tested that proves true, wtf man... what else you want? no vagabond would come w/in 50km of you! 2) doesn't it have what could be the best tank of all 4? thx ahead for the answers, matar forever! Don't forget in this thread we mainly talked about doin missions with that ship, in most missions you would still be far better of using artillery. You might talk about pvp here, but i don't see people using this ship in the mass for pvp any time soon, with the price tag around 700/800 Million. About point 2, i won't say it isn't a good tank, but why exactly does it make the best tank of them all? Considering most pvp is currently done with carriers and mothersdhips. Marauders are pretty cheap PVP ships :P But they could be a tiny bit more powerfull to justify that. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Tyr Zewa Caldari MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.01.07 11:09:00 - [155] One thing i never got is, how can ccp argue that they gave it a low grid, to prevent nos/neut ships in pvp, when they already made the ships unusable for pvp with their sensor strenght? A single multispec will easily jam you in the vargur. CCP should just admit that this ship is a piece of crap and boost it's grid so it can be used as an arty platform for pve.
Coolun' Dar	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:55:00 - [156] Having shoe-horned a set of 4 1200mm II's on a Vargur (god how I despise the pathetic powergrid on the Vargur) [3 pdu IIs and the 10% powergrid rig] I will say one thing in its favour... it is as accurate as hell using arty's. Comparing it with the base tracking on a 720mm II med arty you're looking at only a 0.05rad difference. This give the Vargur the advantage that it can take down cruiser rats nearly as effectively as battleships. Battlecruisers die from one volley. It does have it's advantages, and if it were to get a powergrid boost it would be a serious serious contender with the fleet tempy (which completely outclasses it at this time - especially as an AC boat).
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:32:00 - [157] Originally by: Coolun' Dar Having shoe-horned a set of 4 1200mm II's on a Vargur (god how I despise the pathetic powergrid on the Vargur) [3 pdu IIs and the 10% powergrid rig] I will say one thing in its favour... it is as accurate as hell using arty's. Comparing it with the base tracking on a 720mm II med arty you're looking at only a 0.05rad difference. This give the Vargur the advantage that it can take down cruiser rats nearly as effectively as battleships. Battlecruisers die from one volley. It does have it's advantages, and if it were to get a powergrid boost it would be a serious serious contender with the fleet tempy (which completely outclasses it at this time - especially as an AC boat). Realistic Arty Vargur 4x RF 1200mm Arty Gist B-Type XL, 3x Hardener, 2x SS TC 3x RF Gyro, RF TE, Thukker PDU 2x CCC II It's the only viable Arty Vargur setup I've been able to come up with. A pair of Thukker PDUs allows for 1200mm II's, but I think you'll see better results with faction + Damage Mod (but haven't checked). -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
KD.Fluffy The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:36:00 - [158] Vargur may be the red headed step child of the marauders.... Who cares. How many uber ships does minmatar have? stop whining. Boost The Eagle!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:38:00 - [159] Originally by: KD.Fluffy Vargur may be the red headed step child of the marauders.... Who cares. How many uber ships does minmatar have? stop whining. Well, so the Eagle, Ferox, and Rokh are the red headed step children of the Caldari. Stop whining. ;-) -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Slide	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:40:00 - [160] Edited by: Slide on 07/01/2008 17:42:37 Originally by: KD.Fluffy Vargur may be the red headed step child of the marauders.... Who cares. How many uber ships does minmatar have? stop whining. Vargur is the only tech 2 BS there is, regardless race, and this thread is about that ship. What uber minmatar ships are you actualy refering to. And please if you can't think of anything else then "stop whining" wich none of us have done so far in this thread, please don't bother to react at all. It adds completely nothing constructive to this or any other thread. I must add, its funny to see your comment in a threat, mainly discussing the mission ability of the Vargur, you know being a Caldari and such
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.07 18:28:00 - [161] Originally by: Slide I must add, its funny to see your comment in a threat, mainly discussing the mission ability of the Vargur, you know being a Caldari and such Don't mind fluffy, he's just bitter that he had to train Gallente BS 5 to be useful in PVP and then they boost the crap out of the Raven. ;-) -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Xaen Caldari Thunder Muffin	Posted - 2008.01.07 18:39:00 - [162] Originally by: Maeltstome The boni it gets are stupid It's bonuses. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Bo0yakasha	Posted - 2008.01.07 19:07:00 - [163] Edited by: Bo0yakasha on 07/01/2008 19:08:36 Hola, I have a golem but is looking to get the alt into a Vargur. A quick round of EFT :) shows that I can get a 1.3k dps perma tank, 740 dps with Barrage and 6+63 km optimum + falloff with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. That seems pretty good in my book. The golem only beats it (in theoretic dps) if it fits jav torps and velocity rigs. Like I said, I can't fly the Vargur yet so is there something I'm missing because it doesn't seem as horrible as some of the people claim it to be at first glance.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.07 19:13:00 - [164] Originally by: Bo0yakasha Edited by: Bo0yakasha on 07/01/2008 19:08:36 Hola, I have a golem but is looking to get the alt into a Vargur. A quick round of EFT :) shows that I can get a 1.3k dps perma tank, 740 dps with Barrage and 6+63 km optimum + falloff with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. That seems pretty good in my book. The golem only beats it (in theoretic dps) if it fits jav torps and velocity rigs. Like I said, I can't fly the Vargur yet so is there something I'm missing because it doesn't seem as horrible as some of the people claim it to be at first glance. I wrote an analysis on page four. It will show you why that 3+63 is "misleading" at best. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Slide	Posted - 2008.01.07 22:25:00 - [165] Originally by: Bo0yakasha Edited by: Bo0yakasha on 07/01/2008 19:08:36 Hola, I have a golem but is looking to get the alt into a Vargur. A quick round of EFT :) shows that I can get a 1.3k dps perma tank, 740 dps with Barrage and 6+63 km optimum + falloff with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. That seems pretty good in my book. The golem only beats it (in theoretic dps) if it fits jav torps and velocity rigs. Like I said, I can't fly the Vargur yet so is there something I'm missing because it doesn't seem as horrible as some of the people claim it to be at first glance. Could you be so free to show me your setup, i am especialy curious how you get a falloff of 63km with Barrage and 1.3kdps perma tank, honestly.
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.08 01:29:00 - [166] Having come back to read this threads additional pages, I must say Liang's posts exemplify quality work and a deep knowledge of the game. Hats off to you Liang. CCP Wrangler, in General Discussions, stated well thought out posts will be taken into consideration for tweaking a item. Hopefully Wrangler reads this thread and passes on the need to boost some of the T2 battleships. As it stands right now the Marauder class is way too expensive for a ship designed for PvE, and is only a mediocre improvement over tier 2 BS's.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.08 05:22:00 - [167] Originally by: Maeltstome Lurk moar. And it's a long standing joke between myself and my friends. I'm sure you can see the similarity to boner. It just seems to have stuck for us, as one of them pointed out to me upon reading this thread :) Back on topic - Liang has crunched numbers and shown the vargur to be lacking in PVE. One pilot has used it in PVP and had the targets escape, im assuming because he operated outside of web and scram range... which is part of the point being made. I agree with what an earlier post said, 1 more mid and 1500 more Base PG. I'd happily swap a high for a mid. Opinions? It would be far better if marauders got something approaching T2 resists, and they added the extra grid as well.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.08 11:06:00 - [168] Originally by: Slide Originally by: Bo0yakasha Edited by: Bo0yakasha on 07/01/2008 19:08:36 Hola, I have a golem but is looking to get the alt into a Vargur. A quick round of EFT :) shows that I can get a 1.3k dps perma tank, 740 dps with Barrage and 6+63 km optimum + falloff with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. That seems pretty good in my book. The golem only beats it (in theoretic dps) if it fits jav torps and velocity rigs. Like I said, I can't fly the Vargur yet so is there something I'm missing because it doesn't seem as horrible as some of the people claim it to be at first glance. Could you be so free to show me your setup, i am especialy curious how you get a falloff of 63km with Barrage and 1.3kdps perma tank, honestly. 1. Open EFT 2. All skills to lvl5 3. Faction/officer gear all around Cmon, even i could think of that Nice hamster! - Mindstar Thanks! We wont touch this sig! - Cortes I lied - Cortes LIAR!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.08 11:18:00 - [169] Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: Slide Originally by: Bo0yakasha Edited by: Bo0yakasha on 07/01/2008 19:08:36 Hola, I have a golem but is looking to get the alt into a Vargur. A quick round of EFT :) shows that I can get a 1.3k dps perma tank, 740 dps with Barrage and 6+63 km optimum + falloff with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. That seems pretty good in my book. The golem only beats it (in theoretic dps) if it fits jav torps and velocity rigs. Like I said, I can't fly the Vargur yet so is there something I'm missing because it doesn't seem as horrible as some of the people claim it to be at first glance. Could you be so free to show me your setup, i am especialy curious how you get a falloff of 63km with Barrage and 1.3kdps perma tank, honestly. 1. Open EFT 2. All skills to lvl5 3. Faction/officer gear all around Cmon, even i could think of that Faction fittings OK. Do not even start with the bull**** of Officer fitting on anything other than a super capital ship. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Slide	Posted - 2008.01.08 12:59:00 - [170] Edited by: Slide on 08/01/2008 13:01:06 Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: Slide Originally by: Bo0yakasha Edited by: Bo0yakasha on 07/01/2008 19:08:36 Hola, I have a golem but is looking to get the alt into a Vargur. A quick round of EFT :) shows that I can get a 1.3k dps perma tank, 740 dps with Barrage and 6+63 km optimum + falloff with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. That seems pretty good in my book. The golem only beats it (in theoretic dps) if it fits jav torps and velocity rigs. Like I said, I can't fly the Vargur yet so is there something I'm missing because it doesn't seem as horrible as some of the people claim it to be at first glance. Could you be so free to show me your setup, i am especialy curious how you get a falloff of 63km with Barrage and 1.3kdps perma tank, honestly. 1. Open EFT 2. All skills to lvl5 3. Faction/officer gear all around Cmon, even i could think of that Yes exactly what i thought, i just wanted him to show me this on paper, shame you didn't grasp that, ever heard of the concept irony? Anyway proving a ships viability with a ony lvl 5 skill and faction/officer module only setup isnt really making a strong point.
Bo0yakasha	Posted - 2008.01.08 13:21:00 - [171] Originally by: Slide Edited by: Slide on 08/01/2008 13:01:06 Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: Slide Originally by: Bo0yakasha Edited by: Bo0yakasha on 07/01/2008 19:08:36 Hola, I have a golem but is looking to get the alt into a Vargur. A quick round of EFT :) shows that I can get a 1.3k dps perma tank, 740 dps with Barrage and 6+63 km optimum + falloff with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. That seems pretty good in my book. The golem only beats it (in theoretic dps) if it fits jav torps and velocity rigs. Like I said, I can't fly the Vargur yet so is there something I'm missing because it doesn't seem as horrible as some of the people claim it to be at first glance. Could you be so free to show me your setup, i am especialy curious how you get a falloff of 63km with Barrage and 1.3kdps perma tank, honestly. 1. Open EFT 2. All skills to lvl5 3. Faction/officer gear all around Cmon, even i could think of that Yes exactly what i thought, i just wanted him to show me this on paper, shame you didn't grasp that, ever heard of the concept irony? Anyway proving a ships viability with a ony lvl 5 skill and faction/officer module only setup isnt really making a strong point. Please read my post again. I said I can't fly a Vargur yet and was using EFT with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. If you read my post carefully you didn't have to assume anything and you would know I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was simplying asking if the ship is as horrible as people claim it to be because in my situation (gears and skills), it doesn't seem too bad on paper. I only asked a question. To Liang Nuren, I see your point. Of course I don't expect the Vargur to outperform a golem in pve, but do you think it is still much worse than the paladin and kronos?
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.08 13:25:00 - [172] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: arbalesttom Originally by: Slide Originally by: Bo0yakasha Edited by: Bo0yakasha on 07/01/2008 19:08:36 Hola, I have a golem but is looking to get the alt into a Vargur. A quick round of EFT :) shows that I can get a 1.3k dps perma tank, 740 dps with Barrage and 6+63 km optimum + falloff with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. That seems pretty good in my book. The golem only beats it (in theoretic dps) if it fits jav torps and velocity rigs. Like I said, I can't fly the Vargur yet so is there something I'm missing because it doesn't seem as horrible as some of the people claim it to be at first glance. Could you be so free to show me your setup, i am especialy curious how you get a falloff of 63km with Barrage and 1.3kdps perma tank, honestly. 1. Open EFT 2. All skills to lvl5 3. Faction/officer gear all around Cmon, even i could think of that Faction fittings OK. Do not even start with the bull**** of Officer fitting on anything other than a super capital ship. Dont you use officer stuff on your ratting-mobile? How 2007.... Oh, cant you see i was joking around? Nice hamster! - Mindstar Thanks! We wont touch this sig! - Cortes I lied - Cortes LIAR!
Jeetah	Posted - 2008.01.08 13:42:00 - [173] /signed
Coolun' Dar	Posted - 2008.01.08 15:42:00 - [174] Edited by: Coolun'' Dar on 08/01/2008 15:43:31 Originally by: Bo0yakasha Like I said, I can't fly the Vargur yet so is there something I'm missing because it doesn't seem as horrible as some of the people claim it to be at first glance Please read my post again. I said I can't fly a Vargur yet and was using EFT with my existing gears and maxing the remaining of my skills. If you read my post carefully you didn't have to assume anything and you would know I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was simplying asking if the ship is as horrible as people claim it to be because in my situation (gears and skills), it doesn't seem too bad on paper. I only asked a question. I would not describe the Vargur as a horrible ship - but as a underwhelmingly limited ship - in it's primary role as a pve ship. For the price paid, I feel the ship should be multifaceted; like its tech 1 counterpart. All the ship needs is a powergrid increase - I don't have issue with it being a shield tank; that's fine - a degree of specialisation at the cost of a degree of adaptability. However, the ship is constructed with an accuracy fall off of 65km, and a focus on accuracy. These traits (combined with an moderate shield tanking ability) call for a long range sniping capacity. It seems absurd to waste the Minmatar's only good accuracy fall off on a ship that is tied down to autocannons? If the powergrid were tuned up to the Tempest's level, then it could mount 1400mm II's (or properly mount 1200mm II's) and present itself as a admirable ship, with a superb accuracy. Having worked missions with it, 1200mm were managing to score 1400 points of damage on wrecking hits at 12km over the optimal (about 48km on fusion - optimal of 36km)on a cruiser sized target. This indicates how impressive a ship this could be. With such a capacity it could be used in the noble role of the Tempest as a sniper in pvp; giving it some credibility without (in my admittedly untested opinion) being too powerful. This doesn't accord with the OP's issue concerning pvp - but the ship's purpose is clear and bemoaning the fact that it flys poorly in pvp is disregarding it's design parameters.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.08 17:05:00 - [175] Originally by: Bo0yakasha To Liang Nuren, I see your point. Of course I don't expect the Vargur to outperform a golem in pve, but do you think it is still much worse than the paladin and kronos? The Paladin and Kronos are far and away better battleships than the Vargur, TBH. The Paladin gets more DPS at almost any range than the Vargur gets by 20km (which is very nearly inside its optimal) - and that's AFTER it deals with crap resistances. The Kronos is viable with rails if for no other reason than the web bonus. It's an interesting bonus, because of what it does to the damage graph. The web bonus gives the Kronos more damage than autocannons, at a closer range, and then by the time it runs out of Domi web range, it can generally track targets again. The situation becomes exceedingly funny if you have the ISK for an officer web... but that's a bit "lol?". OTOH, some officer stuff is pretty "cheap" (450M or so for a Thon's XLSB for instancE). At any rate, yes, the fact that the Kronos and Paladin can use long range weapons for good DPS, and it makes for a huge difference. There will be missions where the Vargur would be ok (and even out perform a Maelstrom!), but I doubt there are any missions where the Vargur outperforms either the Kronos or the Paladin when properly fitted. -Liang -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Slide	Posted - 2008.01.09 11:20:00 - [176] I would say the Vargur makes a decent tech 1.5 ship

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