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Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.02 00:12:00 - [31] Damsel in Distress is another mission where you can warp in close. I usually steam away from warp in as I use all 1400's and want to get range. Might be interesting to see how arties would work and not move away but rather orbit the slave pens.
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.02 00:21:00 - [32] I feel we're rather getting off topic here - i was slating the usefulne ss of the Vargur in pvp. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.02 00:27:00 - [33] Originally by: Maeltstome I feel we're rather getting off topic here - i was slating the usefulne ss of the Vargur in pvp. Well, first we have to establish that it is actually useful in the role it was designed for. If it isn't useful in that role, it's highly doubtful that it'll ever be useful in any role. That said, it will never compare in versatility to the Tempest. It's notable that it's much faster than the Tempest or the Maelstrom (but not as fast as the Mach). -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.01.02 01:01:00 - [34] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Originally by: goodby4u All its bonuses help with pve,thats its role so...Whats the problem? Because for PvE, the maelstrom is just as good and costs 500mil less. AC's are just not good for most missions. Acs work for some missions...Alot better then arts infact,however with the vargurs falloff bonus they are awesome even with gurista missions and longrange orbitting ships...While all at the same time getting better dps then cruise missiles. Oh and you cannot tractor beam things with a fully fitted mael,even if you could it would still mean getting within 20km to do so. Signature removed. Contains no Eve content. Navigator ([email protected])
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.02 01:26:00 - [35] I suspect in a mission like Mordus Headhunters, A arty Mael will complete the mission quicker and my using a looting Cyclone (4 tractors, 4 salvagers and 1250 m/3 cargo) with a MWd will have the mission looted and salvaged quicker than a Vargur could.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.02 01:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Maeltstome I feel we're rather getting off topic here - i was slating the usefulne ss of the Vargur in pvp. True but I think people are just complaining about it in general. I think one of the problems people have is they see the tempest shape and think it's a tempest..a quick look at this ship quickly takes that away. It's a maelstrom with a different skin, and a nerfed maelstrom at that. I don't have a problem with the bonuses of the ship per se, however, the change where the shield boost amount is now placed under the marauder skill instead of the battleship skill means that this ship basically won't tank as well as a maelstrom unless you have marauders 5, which I doubt many people will train. Due to the shield tanking nature of the ship it instantly becomes gang use only for PvP for the most part, basically just like the maelstrom - it even has the same slot layout. However, compared to the maelstrom, you end up with a huge decrease in grid, and less CPU, even though you have the same number of mid slots. These are the true problems with this ship, that and general prenerfing that CCP seems to have assigned to the class in general. Currently due to the very low grid, in order to fit it you have to use grid mods in order to fit the ship correctly. Compared to the maelstrom, which generally fits 3x gyro, 1 co-pro and a DCU II, the vargur must mount multiple grid mods instead to get a reasonable fitting, even usually with autocannons. Artillery is not even really an option. Since the tank is also identical with the maelstrom usually, this also means that you must fit co-processors, as it has even less CPU. A usual good rule of thumb is if you must use a co-pro and a grid mod to make a fitting work you probabally need to rethink it. However the vargur pretty much requires this. There are 2 real issues with the ship, the first is that the ship PG is way too low and should be increased, the second has to do with T2 BS prenerfing. Increasing the grid so that you could at least fit 1200mm for missions or ratting would be an excellent start; no one uses autos for these types of situations due to ammo use anyway (and yes I know the ammo use is only 1/2 on the vargur). In PvP increasing the grid would allow for fitting the ship at least in the same manner you would normally fit a maelstrom. The second issue is CCP needs to look at the overnerfing of these ship classes in general. The whole reason you can't fit a disruptor/web is that unlike any other T2 ship, you get very little increase in resists. You can't do without a second hardener and fit a disruptor instead because there is very little increase in resists on the ship. All that 650-750m buys you is condensation of 8 turrets into 4, a bit more capacitor recharge, a bit more speed, and a bit more shield recharge. That's very little for an isk outlay that nearly rivals what you must pay for a capital ship. Frankly this is nutty. When you look at black ops ships in comparison they at least have unique abilites which no other battleship can do to justify their cost. Marauders however have no true unique abilities compared to other BS, they just try to do them better - and in the case of the vargur fail mostly. CCP needs to back up the nerfs on this class to justify their cost. If you're going to pay this much you should get value in return, in that it should have something close to 50% base EM resistance and 40-45% thermal resists. Other marauders should have similar increases. In the case of the vargur and golem this would also help a great deal in the PvP department because they could fit tackle gear without compromising their tank to a large degree. In the short term though until enough people get these, and start to complain enough that CCP listens (this won't be soon), vargur owners/prospective owners are basically SOL. Best advice is to stick with the maelstrom. No, it's not as good, but it's not hugely worse, and you can buy 5 of them for 1 vargur.
Slide	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:02:00 - [37] Edited by: Slide on 02/01/2008 11:02:08 I totaly agree with Kai Lae. I have been so stupid to train Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5...2 days left Just 2 days ago i tried to fit the ship in EFT and to my shock i noticed i can't even fit 4 1200 artillery tech II guns in it without a grid module, and that is with the mid and low slots empty! Maybe my expectation where wrong, i assumed i finaly could get a upgrade in minmatar BS (missionship that is), but as it looks now i will stick with my Maelstrom....saves me from training to Marauder 5 to get the same shield boost bonus
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:05:00 - [38] only issue i have whit the Vargur is the PG.... i cant even fit smalles artys on it... that means i dont have ANYTHING else fitt and still it wount fit :(, whit 3 pdu t2 i can make it fit (only guns tho :( ) strange ship ---------------------------------- Seems that there's a new game that seems to be very popular whit whiners these days. Its called EFT Online. dont listen those people.. as they dont have a clue
Slide	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:12:00 - [39] Sorry Riho, but you wouldnt call me a whiner do you? I don't see what EFT has to do with having no clue, its just a addon to check fittings?
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:18:00 - [40] The vargur is the worst of the 4 marauders, but I'm confident a vargur will make more isk/hour doing level 4 missions then any other minmatar ship (when factoring in loottimes and ammo useage). Unless you only run missions for LP/standing ofcourse... --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:21:00 - [41] Edited by: Shevar on 02/01/2008 11:23:50 Originally by: Riho only issue i have whit the Vargur is the PG.... i cant even fit smalles artys on it... that means i dont have ANYTHING else fitt and still it wount fit :(, whit 3 pdu t2 i can make it fit (only guns tho :( ) strange ship There is a good reason for this, if the vargur could fit 4 1400's (or even 1200's...) since then it could fit 4x 800's with 3 heavy neuts/nosses and some cap injectors, plates whatever. CCP doesn't want you to use the utility slots for PvP items, hence they had to severly limit the vargurs PG (the PG diffrence between short range and long range weapons for Minmatar is huge compared to the other races). The other option would have been to totally revamp PG useage of every minmatar gun and total grid available for every minmatar ship. But since that would probably cause even more whines they opted for making the vargur AC only. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Slide	Posted - 2008.01.02 11:26:00 - [42] The solution here would be simple imo. If i recal a mining barge has that bonus to fit the strip miners , wich initialy uses alot more fitting then the barge can ever use. So why not giving the vargur some sort of bonus when using artillery guns, or something.
Zaran Darkstar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.02 13:39:00 - [43] I agree of course with the original poster and Kai Lai and all the other people that blame Vargur for what it is: Utter Crap! I had also made a similar thread some days ago http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=666678 Problem is that you will have always to deal with some pestering fanboys that are totally ignorant but will spam the thread over and over using the most absurd arguments. Some of these fanboys know in fact that they are ignorant but their goal is not to convince people that see the facts. They only try to create a diversion to "tune down" in this way the voices of reason. They roam these forums and what they try to do is kill any constructive critisism based on facts with absurd fanboy remarks. In the end of the day the message of the thread will be: half of people agreeing that (in our case) Vargur sucks but the other half of the post would describe it as a very good ship.Therfore the message CCP will get by all this will be that "People are arguing between them about Vargur's usefullness others think it sucks others think it rocks. What do you think? Hm, half people like it half don't like it....... Leave it as it is! " And this is the goal of all these fanboys. Covering the facts and discouraging more people to say their opinion trying to make them show up like whiners. Because the art in obscuring the bigest truth is to react no matter what you are saying. By trying to respond even with arguments that don't stand to reason you already start create doupts no matter what you say. It's an art also the politicians know very well. So i have to tell to all these fanboys or just ignorant spammers: You should be ashamed of yourselves because you are really not helping this game to become better and in the end of the day you will suffer yourselves by that. All in all the only thing Vargur can do better than the other T1 Minmatar Battleships is Looting/Salvaging! Go download this little program and see for yourselves! http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Gripen/EFT2.4.1.zip
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2008.01.02 14:05:00 - [44] Originally by: Shevar Edited by: Shevar on 02/01/2008 11:23:50 Originally by: Riho only issue i have whit the Vargur is the PG.... i cant even fit smalles artys on it... that means i dont have ANYTHING else fitt and still it wount fit :(, whit 3 pdu t2 i can make it fit (only guns tho :( ) strange ship There is a good reason for this, if the vargur could fit 4 1400's (or even 1200's...) since then it could fit 4x 800's with 3 heavy neuts/nosses and some cap injectors, plates whatever. CCP doesn't want you to use the utility slots for PvP items, hence they had to severly limit the vargurs PG (the PG diffrence between short range and long range weapons for Minmatar is huge compared to the other races). The other option would have been to totally revamp PG useage of every minmatar gun and total grid available for every minmatar ship. But since that would probably cause even more whines they opted for making the vargur AC only. true... but my paladin fits 4 tachys whit a single rep tank :( sure no mwd, capinj... but still :P guess its AC Vargur then :) its not bad but would have been nice to fit artys :) ---------------------------------- Seems that there's a new game that seems to be very popular whit whiners these days. Its called EFT Online. dont listen those people.. as they dont have a clue
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.02 14:42:00 - [45] Edited by: Shevar on 02/01/2008 14:43:47 Originally by: Zaran Darkstar All in all the only thing Vargur can do better than the other T1 Minmatar Battleships is Looting/Salvaging! Go download this little program and see for yourselves! http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Gripen/EFT2.4.1.zip The palladin does less DPS then an gheddon but trust me it will earn more isk/hour then one. The Kronos does less DPS then a hyperion but trust me it will earn more isk/hour then one. The golem does less DPS then a raven trust me it will earn more isk/hour then one. And guess what? The same applies to the vargur, I do agree it is the weakest of the marauders but it's definatly more proffitable to fly then a typhoon/tempest/maelstorm (assuming you are a high sec carebear that is). Wether you find it's worth your isk is a second question, but since pre-trinity there were loads of caldari navy ravens around I would say that there is a market for em. Quote: true... but my paladin fits 4 tachys whit a single rep tank :( sure no mwd, capinj... but still :P guess its AC Vargur then :) its not bad but would have been nice to fit artys :) You need atleast 1 fitting mod for that. Unless you want tech1... But then again it was probably more worthwhile to train for tech2 turrets then that it was training awu5/bs5. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2008.01.02 14:59:00 - [46] Originally by: Shevar Quote: true... but my paladin fits 4 tachys whit a single rep tank :( sure no mwd, capinj... but still :P guess its AC Vargur then :) its not bad but would have been nice to fit artys :) You need atleast 1 fitting mod for that. Unless you want tech1... But then again it was probably more worthwhile to train for tech2 turrets then that it was training awu5/bs5. true.. but who fits t2 tank :P whit t2 guns and amarr navy stuff it fits nice :P 4x tach t2, slavagers and tractor beams 3x cap recharger, web rep, 3x hardeners/eans whatever, 3x HS 2 rigs of choise :) (iv gone for 2x cap recharger for the perma running pwnage :P) ---------------------------------- Seems that there's a new game that seems to be very popular whit whiners these days. Its called EFT Online. dont listen those people.. as they dont have a clue
Arsonin Flier	Posted - 2008.01.02 15:21:00 - [47] missiles are overpowered.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.02 15:46:00 - [48] Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: El Yatta Very ill thought-out OP. You dont seem to know how falloff works. I am perfectly aware how faloff works - barrage in a tempest will give you about 70% damage at scram range, above that and it starts droping alot. With a vargur you get about another 10-15% damage at that range for a MASSIVE loss of tank. And the boni that are 'fine' are whats gimping the ships PG, shield boost bonus with those res? It's basically an expensive cyclone. BTW, do you even fly minmatar? Massive ? You talk like if the tempest was anythign but a mediocre tanker. You can put 1 Dread Gurista XL booster ( bare minimum in a ship as expensive as a vargur. A invul Field 2 Shield rigs 1 DC II and tank 700 dps. Still enough space for MWD Cap Injector Disruptor and web. You might ddrop the wreb and use web drones, so you can increase your tank even more. That without even putign a LG crystal set in equation (very doable for such expensive ship). Better than tempest. Not an increadble Ship i agree. Vagur needs more PG and would be VERY niec to drop 1 low in favor of 1 Mid or even drop 2 HIgh in favor of 1 Extra mid. Somethign i agree is. CVOMPLETELY STUPID decision by CCP to make PVE ships! The most expected ships ever the T2 batleships made into PVE was somethign that deserved far more anger than the Carrier 5 fighter proposed nerf. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: El Yatta Very ill thought-out OP. You dont seem to know how falloff works. I am perfectly aware how faloff works - barrage in a tempest will give you about 70% damage at scram range, above that and it starts droping alot. With a vargur you get about another 10-15% damage at that range for a MASSIVE loss of tank. And the boni that are 'fine' are whats gimping the ships PG, shield boost bonus with those res? It's basically an expensive cyclone. BTW, do you even fly minmatar? Massive ? You talk like if the tempest was anythign but a mediocre tanker. Haha - You're obviously not fitting it right then. The combination of capless guns and a dual rep + cap booster tank makes it awesome. Since the other turret races need to fit a second cap injector to fuel guns before they even activate twin reps. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:37:00 - [50] I know someone who flies a Vargur into pvp sometimes. He seems happy a lot. Originally by: Orebuster I thought EVE was about self determination and responsibility.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:46:00 - [51] Originally by: Shevar There is a good reason for this, if the vargur could fit 4 1400's (or even 1200's...) since then it could fit 4x 800's with 3 heavy neuts/nosses and some cap injectors, plates whatever. CCP doesn't want you to use the utility slots for PvP items, hence they had to severly limit the vargurs PG (the PG diffrence between short range and long range weapons for Minmatar is huge compared to the other races). Or, they could have just removed the mostly useless utility slots, or reduced them by 2. That, however, would make too much sense I suppose.
Captain Dralisz	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:52:00 - [52] Nerf the matar! :D
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:52:00 - [53] Originally by: Phoenicia I know someone who flies a Vargur into pvp sometimes. He seems happy a lot. It has it's uses actually. The issue isn't that it's useless, it's that it's not worth the price you pay, because you get not enough value in return. I suspect greatly that all other marauders are similar (can't fly them so not sure) but the vargur seems to be the worst off.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.02 17:08:00 - [54] Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: El Yatta Very ill thought-out OP. You dont seem to know how falloff works. I am perfectly aware how faloff works - barrage in a tempest will give you about 70% damage at scram range, above that and it starts droping alot. With a vargur you get about another 10-15% damage at that range for a MASSIVE loss of tank. And the boni that are 'fine' are whats gimping the ships PG, shield boost bonus with those res? It's basically an expensive cyclone. BTW, do you even fly minmatar? Massive ? You talk like if the tempest was anythign but a mediocre tanker. Haha - You're obviously not fitting it right then. The combination of capless guns and a dual rep + cap booster tank makes it awesome. Since the other turret races need to fit a second cap injector to fuel guns before they even activate twin reps. And? the no cap usage of guns is more than compensated for the initially Low cap that matari BS have. THey also have too few low slots to tank WELL. Specially because when you fit armor rigs you destroy the matari BS greatest advantage capability of choosign range of engagement. Tempest is versatile but pittiful tank. 2 LAR II and 2 EANM and 3 rigs are NOT a good tank. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.02 17:39:00 - [55] Originally by: Kagura Nikon 2 LAR II and 2 EANM and 3 rigs are NOT a good tank. You're right, it's not - and if thats what you fit, then you're a ****. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.02 17:53:00 - [56] Originally by: Phoenicia I know someone who flies a Vargur into pvp sometimes. He seems happy a lot. Let me guess ... He enjoys the fact that many people haven't added Marauders to their overview. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Captain Dralisz	Posted - 2008.01.02 17:56:00 - [57] i dont know why the matars crying always. vargur: high: 4x 800mm ACt2, 2 salvager, 1 tractor med: 100mn ab t2,gist-b xl, 2x SBA t2, 2 hardener t2 low: 2x cap flux coil t2, 2 gyro stab t2, damage control t2 rig: 2ccc dps: 812 (barrage) with 3x ogre t2 range:6+45 the gist B xl is working always. (1009 eff dps) em-thermal kronos: high: 4X425mm rail t2, 2 salvager, 1 tarctor med: 3X cap rech t2, 100mn ab t2 low: 1600mm rolled, centus-b LAR, 4 hardener t2, 1 en adaptive nano t2 rig: 2ccc dps: 433 (spike)+3 ogre t2 range: 130+30 (targeting 108) the armor rep is working always. (427 eff dps) em-thermal with javelin: 18+30 range and 614dps+3x ogret2 so stop crying matar!
Phoenicia Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2008.01.02 18:00:00 - [58] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Phoenicia I know someone who flies a Vargur into pvp sometimes. He seems happy a lot. Let me guess ... He enjoys the fact that many people haven't added Marauders to their overview. insert amusing FAIL-picture, possibly with cat Originally by: Orebuster I thought EVE was about self determination and responsibility.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.02 18:02:00 - [59] Originally by: Captain Dralisz i dont know why the matars crying always. vargur: high: 4x 800mm ACt2, 2 salvager, 1 tractor med: 100mn ab t2,gist-b xl, 2x SBA t2, 2 hardener t2 low: 2x cap flux coil t2, 2 gyro stab t2, damage control t2 rig: 2ccc dps: 812 (barrage) with 3x ogre t2 range:6+45 the gist B xl is working always. (1009 eff dps) em-thermal kronos: high: 4X425mm rail t2, 2 salvager, 1 tarctor med: 3X cap rech t2, 100mn ab t2 low: 1600mm rolled, centus-b LAR, 4 hardener t2, 1 en adaptive nano t2 rig: 2ccc dps: 433 (spike)+3 ogre t2 range: 130+30 (targeting 108) the armor rep is working always. (427 eff dps) em-thermal with javelin: 18+30 range and 614dps+3x ogret2 so stop crying matar! It isn't really fair to compare a 110 km setup to a 50 km setup. The only problem is that it can only be somewhat compared to a ship using megapulses (also medium range), because comparing it to for example blasters would turn it skewed the other way around compared to the 425's. As for fitting I would most definably fit in a fall off rig on there to capitalize on the ships main strong point. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Captain Dralisz	Posted - 2008.01.02 18:05:00 - [60] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Captain Dralisz i dont know why the matars crying always. vargur: high: 4x 800mm ACt2, 2 salvager, 1 tractor med: 100mn ab t2,gist-b xl, 2x SBA t2, 2 hardener t2 low: 2x cap flux coil t2, 2 gyro stab t2, damage control t2 rig: 2ccc dps: 812 (barrage) with 3x ogre t2 range:6+45 the gist B xl is working always. (1009 eff dps) em-thermal kronos: high: 4X425mm rail t2, 2 salvager, 1 tarctor med: 3X cap rech t2, 100mn ab t2 low: 1600mm rolled, centus-b LAR, 4 hardener t2, 1 en adaptive nano t2 rig: 2ccc dps: 433 (spike)+3 ogre t2 range: 130+30 (targeting 108) the armor rep is working always. (427 eff dps) em-thermal with javelin: 18+30 range and 614dps+3x ogret2 so stop crying matar! It isn't really fair to compare a 110 km setup to a 50 km setup. The only problem is that it can only be somewhat compared to a ship using megapulses (also medium range), because comparing it to for example blasters would turn it skewed the other way around compared to the 425's. As for fitting I would most definably fit in a fall off rig on there to capitalize on the ships main strong point. with neutron blasters: 11+16 (null) 705dps iwth 3xogret2 will u fly close on every npc to 11+16? LOL u kidding with void: 6,8+6,3 846dps with 3xogret2 more lol vargur: with hail: 3+15 982dps with 3x ogret2

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