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David Khan War Crimes	Posted - 2008.01.04 16:53:00 - [61] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No, add lasers to an amarr ship, then let the amarr ship fire its lasers and use repper. At the same time let a comparable minmatar ship fire its guns and use its repper. AND THEN COMPARE THE CAP. ya rly. With perfect cap skills I cannot run a proper tank on a Minmatar ship without cap injecting. With perfect cap skills, a Abaddon pilot can forget the tank - heck he will barely be able to sustain 1 tach Active tanking is subpar, also, if you're fitting an active tank and tachs, you need not be flying the Abaddon.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:07:00 - [62] Originally by: Diana Merris Do Minmatar have a command ship with 7 lows or a battleship with 8 lows? Of course this is off-topic from the OP's whine post which is about the fact he thinks the Amarr 10% cap use bonus is usless. That said I fully support the change mentioned as long as CCP also gives projectiles the same base DPS as lasers. And same base capacitor and base cap recharge and no ammo consumption and and and and and and. Don't try to make the game the same, for crying out loud. Johnny, look, you stop making random (and ridiculous) nerf threads and I'll start making threads on Amarr sucking. Keep making nerf threads and I'll dredge up every single instance where Amarr is the best race, hands down. I think pretty much everyone in Ships & Modules agrees that Amarr needs a boost, and the devs have promised one. Stop ***ing. -Liang -- Originally by:** "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:23:00 - [63] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/01/2008 17:23:25 Originally by: Diana Merris Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No, add lasers to an amarr ship, then let the amarr ship fire its lasers and use repper. At the same time let a comparable minmatar ship fire its guns and use its repper. AND THEN COMPARE THE CAP. ya rly. With perfect cap skills I cannot run a proper tank on a Minmatar ship without cap injecting. But on the other hand you do have midslots to actually fit one. Do you have a commandship with 3 mids or a battleships with 3 mids? Do Minmatar have a command ship with 7 lows or a battleship with 8 lows? Does Amarr have one? last I checked, 2-3 RCU, 3 X Tracking mods, 8 x Cap mods needed to sustain 2 tach on a Abaddon for a competitive optimal sniper range of 160km. How man lows are "REAL"? Hardly any! Amarr have fake slots - their lows are not really lows because they need cap mods, fitting mods and tracking mods just to be on par with Minmatar. Even Caldari has more "Real" lows than Amarr Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Dianeces Minmatar Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:23:00 - [64] Edited by: Dianeces on 04/01/2008 17:24:09 Originally by: Liang Nuren I think pretty much everyone in Ships & Modules agrees that Amarr needs a boost, and the devs have promised one. Stop *****ing. This, OMG. So much win contained in one post. It's mind-boggling.
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:34:00 - [65] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Amarr have fake slots - their lows are not really lows because they need cap mods, fitting mods and tracking mods just to be on par with Minmatar. Even Caldari has more "Real" lows than Amarr Man, too bad there isn't an alternative ship that does the same DPS that isn't very hard to fit. And you're right, the highest DPS long-range weaponry should be able to fire merrily without any cap problems. If only there were some magical things that increased, or 'boosted', your capacitor... would that be wonderful? And why do Minmatar sniping battleships do pretty much the same damage as other sniping battleships that have to use fitting mods as well as being as sturdy as the latter? Also, plated Geddons/Abaddons are so horrifically powerful that even outnumbered they're gonna take some people with them.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:39:00 - [66] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Lets say you use an abaddon or any other Amarr ship for Sniping. Just to fit the goddam tach you need 2-3 fitting mods. And the Abaddon can only sustain 1 tach. (2 tach if you give up half a dozen slots to cap mods) ... 2-3 fitting mods? PDS, RCU, ACR rigs? Which ones? My alt's abaddon handles 8 tachyons with 1 ACR rig which is about the same as 1 RCU. Alt has energy systems management, energy systems operation, and controlled bursts to level 4 which is so pathetically easy she had those within the first 3 months of playing. With those skills 3 tachyon lasers, modulated mind you, pump out 19.3 cap/sec use while her abaddon natively regens only 19.1. Oh, wait, were you meaning T2 tachyons, the one that use 1.6 cap/second more per laser than the best named varieties using multifrequency crystals? If that's the case then she can power 2 (presuming she had the skills to fit them) with cap leftover. Hm... 8 T1/T2 beam lasers, 8 cap/sec, 64.3 cap/sec total usage. Caps out after 8 minutes with 4 CPR2s, no CR2s, and no CCCs while 8 modulated keep running just fine. Well, your basic premise that more than a couple tachyons will require a disturbing number of cap mods to fire them is accurate however your premise that you need multiple fitting mods or that you need multiple cap mods to sustain 2 lasers is highly over-stated and, honestly, flat out wrong, or you're using different math than I am and I don't have the numbers you're using. Personally, I don't really see what the big problem is. You probably shouldn't be fitting 8 tachyons on an abaddon and expecting to fire them non-stop unless you're DPS support in a mission and get minimal aggro and run away from what little you do or you're playing a sniper role in which case having a logistics ship along for things like sensor boosting, tracking links, cap taps, and so on would be pretty smart to have. Either way you slice it while the requirements to run 8 tachyons on an abaddon non-stop (you can do it with as "little" as 2 CCC rigs, 3 CR2s, and 1 CPR 2 if you don't use cap-piggy guns) are steep in how much they limit the ship they are no worse in many respects than what other ships face. Abaddon needing 1 ACR/RCU to fit 8 tachyons is not a problem. The rokh requires the same for 8 425 rails. Hyperion requires one as well if you want 8 425s and a LAR of any sort, though a PDS will work about as well, give you a bit more effective HP, and better cap stability. Plus the ever so minor fact that both ships will also cap out with all 8 guns firing cap-heavy ammo without cap mods. Not as badly/quickly as the abaddon but they still do it. Originally by: Jonny JoJo With perfect cap skills, a Abaddon pilot can forget the tank - heck he will barely be able to sustain 1 tach ... Yeah, you're trolling. I'm sure that not even the town fool or the village idiot could mess up the math that badly because even with no skills you can run 1 T1/T2 tachyon (2 for 22 minutes) and 2 modulated tachyon without capping out. Originally by: Jonny JoJo Does Amarr have one? last I checked, 2-3 RCU, 3 X Tracking mods, 8 x Cap mods needed to sustain 2 tach on a Abaddon for a competitive optimal sniper range of 160km. How man lows are "REAL"? Hardly any! 2-3 RCU? 8 cap mods? 2 tachyon lasers? Fail. ____________________ "Titans were never meant to be cost-effective. It's a huge ****." - Some dev(?).
Bager Gray Gallente COBRA INC Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:47:00 - [67] I have a perfect solution to this problem. Stop posting in this trolls thread. Its a pointless waist of time. Im done reading anything Jonny says.
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:46:00 - [68] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ranvaldy ... If u want to tach beam fit an abaddon u must have very least engi 4 and 3 powergrid rigs which is sill If u have adv. weapon upgrades 4 and engi 5... I don't mean to come off as rude, but ... There are certain mandatory skills for every single race. Energy Management 5, Energy Systems Op 5, Engineering 5, Electronics 5, and Advanced Weapon Upgrades 4 are on it (amongst a lot of others). So, you're just whining about things that you really have to grow in to. You shouldn't even be in an Abaddon without Engineering 5. -Liang It wasnt a whine it was a notation(yes i have engi 5 long ago tho adv weap upgrades not yet nor tech 2 pulses).Thx for letting me know:i must sit back and watch for boring 3 months of skill traning. Intro should include that or description:"By choosing Amarr u will find fitting things pretty hard so just sit back and learn skills for like 4 months even if u want to play u cant"(because im bored of lvl 3 totally did enough with my retired caldari char and wanna lvl 4 but i lack skills flying an Abaddon badly) Anyway i will wait till i get adv weap upgrades 4 and tech 2 pulses.Till that i play EFT Online ... great. Why would it hurt for people if our ships get a 5% max base cap(example:Abaddon 6375->6700 sure it will tear apart everything) ?
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.01.04 22:17:00 - [69] Since total cap use after tanking was mentioned, I'd just like to say that Amarr seem well suited toward massive, high-resist, high hp buffer tanks, and I hear 1600 plates don't use much cap. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.04 22:22:00 - [70] Originally by: Ranvaldy Anyway i will wait till i get adv weap upgrades 4 and tech 2 pulses.Till that i play EFT Online ... great. Why would it hurt for people if our ships get a 5% max base cap(example:Abaddon 6375->6700 sure it will tear apart everything) ? A couple of comments: - You're abbreviating so much that I can barely understand you. Stop. - You simply shouldn't be in an Abaddon (or any battleship for that matter). Go back to battlecruisers or cruisers for a while and enjoy the game. You'll likely even get better performance out of the battlecruiser than your battleship. Now with regards to the 5% max base cap ... I'd be in favor of a 20% increase in capacitor amount across the board for every ship in the game. The fact that cap boosters are pretty much mandatory to run even a light tank is sad. I'd further be a fan of increasing Amarr capacitor by some larger amount. But ***ing and whining because you can't fit Tachs (which are equivalently about half a size category above 1400mm Arties or 425's IIRC) without good skills and a fitting mod .... meh. If you were to post constructively (make a suggestion, generally not in an all out nerf-whine thread) backed up with reasonable evidence to support your suggestion... you'd find that people are quite a lot more amenable to boosting your ships. Hell, there's this guy "Sarmaul" who made a suggestion called "Khanid Mk II". You might have heard of it in relation to several Amarrian ships. Less whining, and crying for nerfs. More constructive posting. -Liang -- Originally by:** "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:13:00 - [71] Edited by: Ranvaldy on 04/01/2008 23:14:59 Edited by: Ranvaldy on 04/01/2008 23:13:33 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ranvaldy Go back to battlecruisers or cruisers for a while and enjoy the game. BC = lvl 0 < BS = lvl 4 Med energy turret = lvl 3 < Large energy turret = lvl 4 So 63751.25(management 5)=7969 63751.05(that 5%)1.25=8367 Thats 398 more cap. Now lets make this situation:Abaddon with 4cap rechargers II in meds + 3 cap rigs with this "boost" u get +4/s more peak regen.If u put a power relay in lowslot then its +5/s.Sure it will be uber imba... Why would this hurt in any way u?Why shouldnt we get a very slight cap boost like this to our ships?The cap differences should be "visible" since WE are the cap race(a +3% boost would be also good then those numbers would change as +2.1/s and +2.9/s).Not everybody has 999m skill points(and the cash for estamel's cap stuffs or opportunity) to get everything.With this Amarr would be more newbie friendly while wouldnt make much impact on the game but we could "feel" we got a buff yay and trust me these forums would get less so called "whine threads"(psychology)! If u dont agree with this slight buff fine just say it but dont tell me:"stop whining because its not (dont know why it feels to u) or "get back into my BC" when i dislike them(didnt even train them). I really think this is a fair small boost which we should get.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:27:00 - [72] Originally by: goodby4u Right,ok since i pretty much only use shortrange weapons i'll leave it in this realm for now...autocannons do(almost across the board)20% less damage then pulse lasers,50% less then blasters...So what you get is a tradeoff,20% less damage and a shorter optimal for better tracking(to a lesser degree now)and no cap use. Unbonused, Amarr laser weapons win, but if you add bonuses, AC's far out perform lasers. A few numbers on Proph and cyclone. Heavy pulse II vs 425mm II. Energy: 4.99875 - 0 Falloff: 4800 - 9600 Tracking: 0,1015625 - 0,132 Rof: 3,78 - 3,04 Dam: 5,589 - 5,3794125 Opt: 15000 - 3000 As you can see, AC's beat in energy (ofcourse), falloff, tracking, rof. Dam mod is close to equal. only thing we got, is optimal. That would be dandy and fine, if it wasn't so bloody easy to close the range. This is fitting the gun on the ship without any other mods. Skills are at the same level. I'm not saying lasers are useless, just very very very hard to use.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:30:00 - [73] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ranvaldy Anyway i will wait till i get adv weap upgrades 4 and tech 2 pulses.Till that i play EFT Online ... great. Why would it hurt for people if our ships get a 5% max base cap(example:Abaddon 6375->6700 sure it will tear apart everything) ? A couple of comments: - You're abbreviating so much that I can barely understand you. Stop. - You simply shouldn't be in an Abaddon (or any battleship for that matter). Go back to battlecruisers or cruisers for a while and enjoy the game. You'll likely even get better performance out of the battlecruiser than your battleship. Now with regards to the 5% max base cap ... I'd be in favor of a 20% increase in capacitor amount across the board for every ship in the game. The fact that cap boosters are pretty much mandatory to run even a light tank is sad. Possibly one of the best suggestions I've heard so far. Originally by: Liang Nuren I'd further be a fan of increasing Amarr capacitor by some larger amount. But ***ing and whining because you can't fit Tachs (which are equivalently about half a size category above 1400mm Arties or 425's IIRC) without good skills and a fitting mod .... meh. Amarr should be able to fit Tachyons easily because I can fit artillery on any ship of mine. Oh, wait, I can't... not to mention artillery sucks horribly. I think JoJo the Troll should try to use Pulses. Since he complains about tracking problems in other threads and I hear long-range guns don't track well, and guess what; you can typically fit pulses without tracking mods. They also consume less cap. Originally by:** Liang Nuren If you were to post constructively (make a suggestion, generally not in an all out nerf-whine thread) backed up with reasonable evidence to support your suggestion... you'd find that people are quite a lot more amenable to boosting your ships. Hell, there's this guy "Sarmaul" who made a suggestion called "Khanid Mk II". You might have heard of it in relation to several Amarrian ships. Less whining, and crying for nerfs. More constructive posting. -Liang This. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer But on the other hand you do have midslots to actually fit one. Do you have a commandship with 3 mids or a battleships with 3 mids? Excuse me, but that is poor ship design, which does pertain to specific ships, true; however many Amarr ships designed later on have four+ midslots and therefore can cap boost. 3 midslot ships you can still plate, though, and be effective. And, also: do you have battlecruisers/battleships which cannot fit the necessary PvP fittings, cap injectors and a semi-decent shield tank? We do, you know. This makes these ships typically gang ships and people are fine with them. Rifters!
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:46:00 - [74] Originally by: Cpt Branko Possibly one of the best suggestions I've heard so far. Thx the sarcasm .My cap calculations would be even lower(guessing around +1-2/s peak regen) in PVP since there people usually tend to use cap boosters(and not going for recharge rate) so the +5% max cap would be only good for 1 more rep cycle(400 cap for a t2 LAR boost gives 398 ).... That will surely change the world
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:51:00 - [75] Originally by: Ranvaldy Originally by: Cpt Branko Possibly one of the best suggestions I've heard so far. Thx the sarcasm .My cap calculations would be even lower(guessing around +1-2/s peak regen) in PVP since there people usually tend to use cap boosters(and not going for recharge rate) so the +5% max cap would be only good for 1 more rep cycle(400 cap for a t2 LAR boost gives 398 ).... That will surely change the world He was referring to the 20% cap increase across the board that I suggested. And he was serious. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders	Posted - 2008.01.05 00:03:00 - [76] Originally by: Liang Nuren He was referring to the 20% cap increase across the board that I suggested. And he was serious. Oh if he was really serious then my bad .Anyway 20% would be veeeeryyyy silly but ill stick with my 3or4or5% max cap boost cookie(can i eat more cap cake mum ? no u cant cuz u have the same amount as others even if u should be eating more but u just cant my love i im sorry i cant cook more cap cookies.Waiting for daddy to cook us more)--->damn im tired i go sleep . Anyway peace all
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.01.05 00:04:00 - [77] Edited by: goodby4u on 05/01/2008 00:04:58 Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Originally by: goodby4u Right,ok since i pretty much only use shortrange weapons i'll leave it in this realm for now...autocannons do(almost across the board)20% less damage then pulse lasers,50% less then blasters...So what you get is a tradeoff,20% less damage and a shorter optimal for better tracking(to a lesser degree now)and no cap use. Unbonused, Amarr laser weapons win, but if you add bonuses, AC's far out perform lasers. A few numbers on Proph and cyclone. Heavy pulse II vs 425mm II. Energy: 4.99875 - 0 Falloff: 4800 - 9600 Tracking: 0,1015625 - 0,132 Rof: 3,78 - 3,04 Dam: 5,589 - 5,3794125 Opt: 15000 - 3000 As you can see, AC's beat in energy (ofcourse), falloff, tracking, rof. Dam mod is close to equal. only thing we got, is optimal. That would be dandy and fine, if it wasn't so bloody easy to close the range. This is fitting the gun on the ship without any other mods. Skills are at the same level. I'm not saying lasers are useless, just very very very hard to use. Seems fair to me,we get a +.2 damage mod and 12km longer range optimal against their slightly better tracking and +.7 rof...Not to mention their hail ammo hurts their ships more. Signature removed. Contains no Eve content. Navigator ([email protected])
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.05 00:31:00 - [78] Originally by: Liang Nuren I think pretty much everyone in Ships & Modules agrees that Amarr needs a boost, and the devs have promised one. Stop *****ing. -Liang Actually there are way too many thinking amarr are fine and there are just a few minor tweaks needed to omen and apoc (this is what even the rtrd devs said in the live blog wich is quite a w00t?). So we are gonna keep these threads going until we get our promised oomph. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.05 00:34:00 - [79] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Since total cap use after tanking was mentioned, I'd just like to say that Amarr seem well suited toward massive, high-resist, high hp buffer tanks, and I hear 1600 plates don't use much cap. You know what the sad part is? We still need cap boosters to run a plate+mwd+laser platform (ie no repper at all). great aint it? fail. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.05 00:41:00 - [80] Originally by: Cpt Branko Excuse me, but that is poor ship design, which does pertain to specific ships, true; however many Amarr ships designed later on have four+ midslots and therefore can cap boost. So you agree 3 mids on geddon and absolution is a clear flaw. I mean who wouldnt drop the extra high for an extra mid or even an extra low for a 4th mid? How are these ships compensated for this intentional flaw in its design? They are not. This is why ccp made abaddon and harbinger 4 mid slots eventhough its totally against amarr slot layout on their gun ships. ccp knows it sucks with 3 mids on bigger ships, I just wonder why they havent fixed the rest of the ships. They fail in so many ways and have gone friggin schizofrenic all over the place when it comes to amarr ships and their place and balance. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.05 00:57:00 - [81] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/01/2008 00:57:30 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer So you agree 3 mids on geddon and absolution is a clear flaw. I mean who wouldnt drop the extra high for an extra mid or even an extra low for a 4th mid? How are these ships compensated for this intentional flaw in its design? They are not. This is why ccp made abaddon and harbinger 4 mid slots eventhough its totally against amarr slot layout on their gun ships. ccp knows it sucks with 3 mids on bigger ships, I just wonder why they havent fixed the rest of the ships. They fail in so many ways and have gone friggin schizofrenic all over the place when it comes to amarr ships and their place and balance. TBH, it wouldn't be an issue if capacitor wasn't such a colossal issue in the game. Ships can't run a reasonable plain jane subsized tank off cap recharge in most cases.... let alone actual PVP conditions! MWD/Web/Scram should be the ideal mids for the Geddon, and cap boosters should (ideally) not be strictly necessary (for almost any ship IMO). -Liang Ed: Of course, it should be noted that you shouldn't be able to run an uber dual rep 1000 DPS tank and fire your guns forever. I'm not sure how it would balance in PVE, but I might be tempted to work up a proposal sometime soonish. -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.05 01:02:00 - [82] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/01/2008 00:57:30 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer So you agree 3 mids on geddon and absolution is a clear flaw. I mean who wouldnt drop the extra high for an extra mid or even an extra low for a 4th mid? How are these ships compensated for this intentional flaw in its design? They are not. This is why ccp made abaddon and harbinger 4 mid slots eventhough its totally against amarr slot layout on their gun ships. ccp knows it sucks with 3 mids on bigger ships, I just wonder why they havent fixed the rest of the ships. They fail in so many ways and have gone friggin schizofrenic all over the place when it comes to amarr ships and their place and balance. TBH, it wouldn't be an issue if capacitor wasn't such a colossal issue in the game. Ships can't run a reasonable plain jane subsized tank off cap recharge in most cases.... let alone actual PVP conditions! MWD/Web/Scram should be the ideal mids for the Geddon, and cap boosters should (ideally) not be strictly necessary (for almost any ship IMO). -Liang Ed: Of course, it should be noted that you shouldn't be able to run an uber dual rep 1000 DPS tank and fire your guns forever. I'm not sure how it would balance in PVE, but I might be tempted to work up a proposal sometime soonish. Yeah, the whole cap booster thing is a bit silly. Youre right, its stupid that many ships can barely run guns+1 rep tank without a booster even at high skills. The biggest issue imo is explaining this to ccp balance team. They seem very clueless about the balance problems... --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.01.05 01:32:00 - [83] Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 05/01/2008 01:33:05 Originally by: Liang Nuren But ***ing and whining because you can't fit Tachs (which are equivalently about half a size category above 1400mm Arties or 425's IIRC) without good skills and a fitting mod .... meh. -Liang I would be fine with this arguement about tachs being oversized if we had anything reasonably resembling a downgrade option. MegaBeams are so far and away behind 1400s and 425s in every possible way, that Amarr ships need Tachs to just be competitive, and they are still way behind on range while fitting 4 track comps/enhancers. as for the projectile arguement vs lasers, the way i see it is this: projectiles start out with horrible dps. minnie ship bonuses double damage bonii them up to equivalent of laser dps. Lasers start with good RAW dps, but horrible cap use. Amarr ships cap bonus the guns down to.....slightly less horrible cap use. in the end, ACs have comparable damage to pulse lasers, while having no cap use, better tracking, better damage types, and comparable effective ranges in true pvp fights. pulse range advantage is either too small (meds and smalls) or difficult to impossible to utilize due to cap use/slot layout/realities of todays pvp fights (large lasers) Originally by:** Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders	Posted - 2008.01.05 10:45:00 - [84] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 05/01/2008 01:33:05 Originally by: Liang Nuren But *****ing and whining because you can't fit Tachs (which are equivalently about half a size category above 1400mm Arties or 425's IIRC) without good skills and a fitting mod .... meh. -Liang I would be fine with this arguement about tachs being oversized if we had anything reasonably resembling a downgrade option. MegaBeams are so far and away behind 1400s and 425s in every possible way, that Amarr ships need Tachs to just be competitive, and they are still way behind on range while fitting 4 track comps/enhancers. as for the projectile arguement vs lasers, the way i see it is this: projectiles start out with horrible dps. minnie ship bonuses double damage bonii them up to equivalent of laser dps. Lasers start with good RAW dps, but horrible cap use. Amarr ships cap bonus the guns down to.....slightly less horrible cap use. in the end, ACs have comparable damage to pulse lasers, while having no cap use, better tracking, better damage types, and comparable effective ranges in true pvp fights. pulse range advantage is either too small (meds and smalls) or difficult to impossible to utilize due to cap use/slot layout/realities of todays pvp fights (large lasers) Agreed in 100%--->+5% max base cap to all Amarr ships and a -5% base cap recharge time :P(im getting greedy xD xD xD ) So example an Abaddon from 6375-->6693 and recharge from 1250-->1187 It would be like Amarrs as a Cap race we get "1 extra" lvl in Energy management and Energy Systems Operation.Like matars have sick speed and they are the speed race.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.06 00:23:00 - [85] Originally by: Ranvaldy Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 05/01/2008 01:33:05 Originally by: Liang Nuren But *****ing and whining because you can't fit Tachs (which are equivalently about half a size category above 1400mm Arties or 425's IIRC) without good skills and a fitting mod .... meh. -Liang I would be fine with this arguement about tachs being oversized if we had anything reasonably resembling a downgrade option. MegaBeams are so far and away behind 1400s and 425s in every possible way, that Amarr ships need Tachs to just be competitive, and they are still way behind on range while fitting 4 track comps/enhancers. as for the projectile arguement vs lasers, the way i see it is this: projectiles start out with horrible dps. minnie ship bonuses double damage bonii them up to equivalent of laser dps. Lasers start with good RAW dps, but horrible cap use. Amarr ships cap bonus the guns down to.....slightly less horrible cap use. in the end, ACs have comparable damage to pulse lasers, while having no cap use, better tracking, better damage types, and comparable effective ranges in true pvp fights. pulse range advantage is either too small (meds and smalls) or difficult to impossible to utilize due to cap use/slot layout/realities of todays pvp fights (large lasers) Agreed in 100%--->+5% max base cap to all Amarr ships and a -5% base cap recharge time :P(im getting greedy xD xD xD ) So example an Abaddon from 6375-->6693 and recharge from 1250-->1187 It would be like Amarrs as a Cap race we get "1 extra" lvl in Energy management and Energy Systems Operation.Like matars have sick speed and they are the speed race. Yeah the cap race thing should be made more noticable. Its a joke right now. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.06 00:33:00 - [86] fit 3 damage mods adn damage rigs. I've had a zealot literally cut me in half with that, dual repping munnin (94%em, 74%therm). He outdamaged my reps. Now THATS insane. The reason you're not beating armor tanks is cause you're not fitting damage mods. Given that amarr ships have mostly no damage boni, when you stick on a damage mods, it's bonus isn't stacked against ship bonus, so its more effective. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.06 00:38:00 - [87] Originally by: Maeltstome fit 3 damage mods adn damage rigs. I've had a zealot literally cut me in half with that, dual repping munnin (94%em, 74%therm). He outdamaged my reps. Now THATS insane. The reason you're not beating armor tanks is cause you're not fitting damage mods. Given that amarr ships have mostly no damage boni, when you stick on a damage mods, it's bonus isn't stacked against ship bonus, so its more effective. Is it just me or is there alot of fail in this post? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Ranvaldy Amarr Hungarian Space Defenders	Posted - 2008.01.06 00:57:00 - [88] Originally by: Maeltstome fit 3 damage mods adn damage rigs. I've had a zealot literally cut me in half with that, dual repping munnin (94%em, 74%therm). He outdamaged my reps. Now THATS insane. The reason you're not beating armor tanks is cause you're not fitting damage mods. Given that amarr ships have mostly no damage boni, when you stick on a damage mods, it's bonus isn't stacked against ship bonus, so its more effective. Hmmm dunno what u think ?
Flurren	Posted - 2008.01.06 22:06:00 - [89] Edited by: Flurren on 06/01/2008 22:10:13 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah the cap race thing should be made more noticable. Its a joke right now So they should remove the sacrilege and the recons then? I mean amarr are the laser race so why do you have ships with drone and missile boni? :) EDIT: I agree about the cap booster thing though. The problem is that the 4 midslot mods seen as necessary for pvp are so completely out of kilter with anything else in regard to how much they buff your ship or debuff others (apart from the warp disruptor actually when i think about it, thats just a pvp defining mod and fine imo although it could maybe be modified to take range into account somehow) . Damage controls can be seen this way too in that they provide a huge bonus to the ship and are virtually essential on the larger ones.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.06 22:45:00 - [90] Originally by: Flurren Edited by: Flurren on 06/01/2008 22:10:13 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah the cap race thing should be made more noticable. Its a joke right now So they should remove the sacrilege and the recons then? I mean amarr are the laser race so why do you have ships with drone and missile boni? :) EDIT: I agree about the cap booster thing though. The problem is that the 4 midslot mods seen as necessary for pvp are so completely out of kilter with anything else in regard to how much they buff your ship or debuff others (apart from the warp disruptor actually when i think about it, thats just a pvp defining mod and fine imo although it could maybe be modified to take range into account somehow) . Damage controls can be seen this way too in that they provide a huge bonus to the ship and are virtually essential on the larger ones. You see this is exactly where you can see the why laser cap usage vs amarr ship cap is broken. Khanid ships have excellent cap BUT they dont use lasers. The problem is lasers take too much cap compared to the slight cap advantage on amarr ships. Its simply not enough cap bonus or too much cap use on lasers depending on how you wanna look at it. ccp fail in balancing it. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice

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