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GF to LordChaos and L0ci

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 09:59:00 - [1] The fight was my Hype and my buddies in a Hype and Raven vs. LC's Geddon, L0ci's Dominix and LC's alt in his Falcon. The falcon shut down my two buddies 100% until my Hype was down, which didn't take too long- Blaster Domi and gank Geddon toasted my max skilled Hype fast enough. Then they killed the two other BS while the Falcon kept them jammed. We were pretty bored so we decided to fly in another flight of ships, with my other buddy joining me in an Astarte. So we went back in with a Rokh with smarties, a Raven and two Astartes. The falcon kept all of us jammed handily until they downed the Rokh and Raven. Then my Astarte popped quick once they turned the guns on me. My command ships 18 Sensor strength didn't mean anything to the Falcon of course and was jammed solid. I think the Geddon jumped out with around 25% struc at one point, but the Falcon single handedly kept anyone from pointing anything. I was kind of amused to see LC's alt AmunRaa in local, so I figured we'd get a good fight, knowing he's always close behind with his main. I have to say, I really underestimated his Falcon. I really didn't expect it to keep 3-4 BS/CS jammed solid like it did. Now my ship losses since the release of Trinity have doubled in one messy engagement, lol. I guess I'll just have to stay docked if there's EW these days. Just no beating it. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Galliana Foresta Gallente Fleeting Moments of Insanity	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:12:00 - [2] ECM needs a nerf tbh. Pity to see that Hype go down.. FRAPS it perchance? ---------------
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:20:00 - [3] Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. Pity to see that Hype go down.. FRAPS it perchance? Tried frapsing, got discoed twice during each fight, almost lost my pod lol. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Arekhon Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:28:00 - [4] Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap [BEES]
Galliana Foresta Gallente Fleeting Moments of Insanity	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:30:00 - [5] Meh, that sucks. Woulda been nice to see you die for a change no offence of course - I'm a big fan of the Legendary vids. At least it wasn't the Kronos you were flying, eh? ---------------
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:33:00 - [6] ...so the special ECM ship that take over 6 months to get into managed to jam 2 BS untill you poped. that is hardly overpowered....isnt that what the falcon is for? Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 04/01/2008 10:42:34 Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw ...so the special ECM ship that take over 6 months to get into managed to jam 2 BS untill you poped. that is hardly overpowered....isnt that what the falcon is for? All of us had ECCM fitted. It made Zero difference. I mean, of course we were specifically fit to avoid being ECMed. I'm not too worried about it. I mean, I'm not going to whine about how shtty ECM is. 46 days until I can fly a Falcon. And my Falcon will be permanently fit with BZ-5 Gravimetric jammers. As many as I can fit while still fitting an ECCM on my Falcon so that it can't be counterjammed. Of course, the only reason I'd ever need a Falcon of my own is to counterjam someone elses Falcon. In a stand up fight, I've never had a problem winning. So yeah, 46 days. I can just stay docked until then if need be. Edit- and 46 days is hardly* 6 months. I'll be able to fly it with reasonable (all skills to L4 minimum) inside of two months. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:48:00 - [8] Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. Let's not turn this into an ECM discussion. This was just a contratulatory post for LC, his alt and his buddy. I'm not complaining about the ECM. I clearly said in the OP that I simply underestimated his Falcon and just didn't expect it to completley shut down my whole team when we were fit with ECCM. I will say that I won't be engaging any more gangs with EW support until I can get at least 2-3 more Falcon/Scorp pilots solidly skilled up. There's just no point. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:49:00 - [9] Well it's annoying that ECCM has stacking penalties while ECM doesn't... At least it's possible to overload those. Funny that damps were called "overpowered" when they can't even be overloaded.
Arekhon Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. Let's not turn this into an ECM discussion. This was just a contratulatory post for LC, his alt and his buddy. I'm not complaining about the ECM. I clearly said in the OP that I simply underestimated his Falcon and just didn't expect it to completley shut down my whole team when we were fit with ECCM. I will say that I won't be engaging any more gangs with EW support until I can get at least 2-3 more Falcon/Scorp pilots solidly skilled up. There's just no point. accept my apology for derailing your thread! Arek Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap [BEES]
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. Let's not turn this into an ECM discussion. This was just a contratulatory post for LC, his alt and his buddy. I'm not complaining about the ECM. I clearly said in the OP that I simply underestimated his Falcon and just didn't expect it to completley shut down my whole team when we were fit with ECCM. I will say that I won't be engaging any more gangs with EW support until I can get at least 2-3 more Falcon/Scorp pilots solidly skilled up. There's just no point. accept my apology for derailing your thread! Arek No worries. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
LordChaos Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.04 11:43:00 - [12] Hey Bellum, was a very good fight i enjoyed it good news i have fraps , only problem is your Hyperion looked like it was violating my geddon in not soo good looking way lol. Geddon looked so dam small too. I will make a small movie of that fight. If you check the KB you will see my alt was on 4 kills only , i didn't jam your Hyperion in the start or the raven, but when the 2nd Hyperion came in i knew i wont be able to tank it. KB Fight the 2nd fight i started out at 30% armor. i jammed the 2 astartes when i was in 30% hull. u will see it all in fraps when i finish it. Anyways very good fight and much repsect for bringing it the first time and the 2nd time. The Master Of Chaos
Genius L0ci Bonnie and Clyde	Posted - 2008.01.04 13:38:00 - [13] thx for the fight Bellum u guys fought well. I remember screaming at LC to jump out because of his low armour so I could finish the job. He didnt die lol lucky git Your damn rokh pilot discoed about 8 of my ogre IIs grrr
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:12:00 - [14] Well tbh this thread doesnt deliver a nice fight it delivers a clear message that ecm is overpowered. 2 BS and 1 Support takes down 6 Bs and 2cmd. Want to see if anyone can replicate this with any other recon ship ?
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Gaia Thorn Well tbh this thread doesnt deliver a nice fight it delivers a clear message that ecm is overpowered. 2 BS and 1 Support takes down 6 Bs and 2cmd. Want to see if anyone can replicate this with any other recon ship ? Well, tbh if the other side had brought a support ship of their own (and I'm thinking of a nano drone boat when I say that), then that Falcon would be pretty much dead...
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:38:00 - [16] a very skilled falcon pilot with a good setup should jam that good. ECCM gives you a better chance of not being jammed, it doesnt give you immunity agains ECM
Xtreme Wrath Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Malken a very skilled falcon pilot with a good setup should jam that good. ECCM gives you a better chance of not being jammed, it doesnt give you immunity agains ECM QFT No one seems to say that Hugins or Rapiers are overpowered... Arazu? OMG! Seriously, there are plenty of ways to counter ECM if you prepare for it, ECCM usually give a better chance but as Malken says, it's not a gaurenteed, just better odds. Sounds like LC got lucky on some jam cycles to me. I have ECM trained quite well and in my rook (or falcon rest it's soul) I have some engagements where I can't seem to jam anything... go two days and hit another similar gang (with the same people in it in the same types of ships) and everything I lock up is screwed Seems to be a lot of luck/chance involved with all things being equal. Plus LC is just charmed that way. Chuck Norris uses a live rattlesnake for a condom.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:55:00 - [18] Dead or warped off, the effect is similar. Actually, this thread shows a fundamental lack of understanding of ECM and ECM boats. Although ships have been boosted, in terms of jamming ability, little has actually changed with Trinity. Before Trinity, the pre-eminent ECM boat was the Rook - it got up to 7 midslots of ECM, with 2 lowslots for SDAs and +20% ECM strength per level. And there were plenty of people running about telling us that ECM was useless. Now the pre-eminent ECM boat is the Falcon, which gets, er, up to 7 midslots of ECM, with 3 lowslots for SDAs and +20% ECM strength per level. The extra lowslot offers a 10% increase in ECM strength - if you choose to take it and don't for example add a plate or istab. So what does this mean? Max-skilled Rook in pre-Trinity could get an ECM strength, on a racial jammer, around 12.7ish. Now, the Falcon can get an ECM stength of ~10% more - say, 14.0ish. If we're jamming a Hype of sensor strength 23 (or ~45 with ECCM), then the pre-Trinity Rook got, using a racial jammer, a ~55% jam chance (~28% with ECCM). In contrast, the Trinity Falcon gets a ~61% jam chance (~31% with ECCM). So, referring to the OP, is that increase of (with ECCM) 3 percentage points responsible for your defeat - whereas previously, before Trinity, you would have won? Maybe - that's the point of ECM it's chance-based , but it's pretty unlikely, really - the chances that a pre-Trinity Rook would have performed a similar shutdown job. A far bigger contributing factor would appear to be your predictable monoracial, tactically limited gang, allowing the ECM pilot to fit magnetometric jammers and jam with impunity. In fact, since ECM boats frequently fitted a damper or two in pre-Trinity, it may actually be harder to keep a target permajammed now. Now, obviously there's more to ECM boats than just jamming chances - but that wasn't what the OP was talking about.
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:19:00 - [19] Nerf stupid people.
Lucifer Fellblade Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:46:00 - [20] Originally by: Awox Nerf stupid people. Agreeing with Awox/Dividing by zero. ------
William DeMeo Gallente the united	Posted - 2008.01.04 16:17:00 - [21] LOL less then a month after damps got nerfed to hell people start saying ECM is overpowered? jesus christ EVE has the whiniest community I've ever seen in an MMO. Stop whining over ECM if you lose to it, it's just as valid as any other game mechanic and is FAR from overpowered. Everybody loses ships sometimes, sometimes to things that are out of their hands, it's a part of the game. I really hope CCP don't listen to these recent "oh no the falcon is overpowered" whines. The falcon has been the same for over a year and now you whine? Makes me lol. Yarr
The Tzar	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:17:00 - [22] Saw this gang the other night stomping around Mara. This time LC had an arazu as well as falcon, am I glad we didn't engage! Hilarious baiting though as a lone domi flits around the belts not shooting any rats. Multi-system scouting to avoid the loss Maybe a side-squad of stealth bombers to take out falcon close range?!?! Watch this space
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. This DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!
M00dy Killed In Action The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:49:00 - [24] That's why ECM ships are always primary. Sun Zu would not be proud of you. RATatatatatat - Moody Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.04 18:50:00 - [25] Quote: In a stand up fight, I've never had a problem winning. Well, that's why E-WAR exists, so that it's not just a straight up gank vs tank by the numbers game. I hope that CCP will make recon damps as good as recon ECM's again though. Also, if all your guys had ECCM's fitted, it sounds like you must have gotten unlucky with the jamming, as otherwise I wouldn't expect a single falcon to keep you perma jammed either. How many cycles did the fight last?
Fuglife Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.04 18:51:00 - [26] Can i join you LC? :) pllleeaasseeee
Dr Slice mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:38:00 - [27] Begun, the Falcon Wars has.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:51:00 - [28] Originally by: LordChaos Hey Bellum, was a very good fight i enjoyed it good news i have fraps , only problem is your Hyperion looked like it was violating my geddon in not soo good looking way lol. Geddon looked so dam small too. I will make a small movie of that fight. If you check the KB you will see my alt was on 4 kills only , i didn't jam your Hyperion in the start or the raven, but when the 2nd Hyperion came in i knew i wont be able to tank it. KB Fight the 2nd fight i started out at 30% armor. i jammed the 2 astartes when i was in 30% hull. u will see it all in fraps when i finish it. Anyways very good fight and much repsect for bringing it the first time and the 2nd time. I agree that you didn't use the Falcon at first. I wanted to see how my Hype was going to hold up before I warped in any extra firepower to finish the job. I knew I'd need a little more DPS than I had to pop your two ships, so I had a few more come in, and of course I was expecting the Falcon, I was just waiting for it to be deployed. Everyone was fitted with ECCM, and yes the Falcon wasn't on my Hype's KM, but it wasn't needed on my Hype, just the others, which it was. But this brings me back to my original point: I underestimated the Falcon and what it takes these days to PVP in Eve: more Falcons than the enemy, with more EW skills and faction ECM. The Falcon was changed for Trinity. Now it has the same bonuses as the Rook, which is very different than pre-Trinity. Now I know just to not undock unless I have n+1 Falcons than the enemy gang lol. In reply to the guy who asked "why didn't you just use an Arazu?": because we're in low-sec, and Arazus get vaporized by the gate guns when you're inside sentry range, and damps don't have an optimal range much longer than 45km or so, and LC made sure that his Falcon was well inside sentry range. Drones are also somewhat effective against ECM ships, but again, being inside sentry range, drones are useless. LC knows this, as do I. That's why he chooses to engage like he does. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: In a stand up fight, I've never had a problem winning. Well, that's why E-WAR exists, so that it's not just a straight up gank vs tank by the numbers game. I hope that CCP will make recon damps as good as recon ECM's again though. Also, if all your guys had ECCM's fitted, it sounds like you must have gotten unlucky with the jamming, as otherwise I wouldn't expect a single falcon to keep you perma jammed either. How many cycles did the fight last? A few cycles I would guess. I don't know what level other people play the game at, but most of the heavy fights I get into are with max skilled players. Take all the EFT info and then add another 10-15% ON TOP of what the Level 5 skills are telling you due to implants and hardwirings. To me that is normal. At that level, if you're jammed maybe 2-3 times in a fight, you're so far behind the damage curve that you've already lost. In Trinity I hadn't really fought many max skilled Falcons, and I was used to fighting pre-Trinity Falcons, without the ECM strength buff that they got. I messed up and paid for it. I should have treated it like a Rook and just not engaged instead of putting best in game ECCM on my ships and thinking it would be enough. ECCM has proven combat ineffective. Even when you specifically fit it to counter the one thing that it's designed to do: stop specialized jamming ships from jamming you. So there is only one thing I know of to stop a Falcon- another Falcon, or three. So don't hate me two months from now when my gangs are 80% Falcons, 20% firepower. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Dimitry Kalashnikov The Black Fleet	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:19:00 - [30] Wait a minute... you entered a fight where you were perma-jammed the whole time and slaughtered with no mercy. How was that a GF? Sounds more like an HP (Hopeless Fight). Not your fault of course. The very concept of ECM is flawed in my book, but I digress. ============================================== The thousand ships of the Black Fleet Corporation descent upon you! Our Void L will blot out the sun!

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