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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 09:59:00 - [1] The fight was my Hype and my buddies in a Hype and Raven vs. LC's Geddon, L0ci's Dominix and LC's alt in his Falcon. The falcon shut down my two buddies 100% until my Hype was down, which didn't take too long- Blaster Domi and gank Geddon toasted my max skilled Hype fast enough. Then they killed the two other BS while the Falcon kept them jammed. We were pretty bored so we decided to fly in another flight of ships, with my other buddy joining me in an Astarte. So we went back in with a Rokh with smarties, a Raven and two Astartes. The falcon kept all of us jammed handily until they downed the Rokh and Raven. Then my Astarte popped quick once they turned the guns on me. My command ships 18 Sensor strength didn't mean anything to the Falcon of course and was jammed solid. I think the Geddon jumped out with around 25% struc at one point, but the Falcon single handedly kept anyone from pointing anything. I was kind of amused to see LC's alt AmunRaa in local, so I figured we'd get a good fight, knowing he's always close behind with his main. I have to say, I really underestimated his Falcon. I really didn't expect it to keep 3-4 BS/CS jammed solid like it did. Now my ship losses since the release of Trinity have doubled in one messy engagement, lol. I guess I'll just have to stay docked if there's EW these days. Just no beating it. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Galliana Foresta Gallente Fleeting Moments of Insanity	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:12:00 - [2] ECM needs a nerf tbh. Pity to see that Hype go down.. FRAPS it perchance? ---------------
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:20:00 - [3] Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. Pity to see that Hype go down.. FRAPS it perchance? Tried frapsing, got discoed twice during each fight, almost lost my pod lol. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Arekhon Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:28:00 - [4] Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap [BEES]
Galliana Foresta Gallente Fleeting Moments of Insanity	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:30:00 - [5] Meh, that sucks. Woulda been nice to see you die for a change no offence of course - I'm a big fan of the Legendary vids. At least it wasn't the Kronos you were flying, eh? ---------------
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:33:00 - [6] ...so the special ECM ship that take over 6 months to get into managed to jam 2 BS untill you poped. that is hardly overpowered....isnt that what the falcon is for? Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 04/01/2008 10:42:34 Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw ...so the special ECM ship that take over 6 months to get into managed to jam 2 BS untill you poped. that is hardly overpowered....isnt that what the falcon is for? All of us had ECCM fitted. It made Zero difference. I mean, of course we were specifically fit to avoid being ECMed. I'm not too worried about it. I mean, I'm not going to whine about how shtty ECM is. 46 days until I can fly a Falcon. And my Falcon will be permanently fit with BZ-5 Gravimetric jammers. As many as I can fit while still fitting an ECCM on my Falcon so that it can't be counterjammed. Of course, the only reason I'd ever need a Falcon of my own is to counterjam someone elses Falcon. In a stand up fight, I've never had a problem winning. So yeah, 46 days. I can just stay docked until then if need be. Edit- and 46 days is hardly* 6 months. I'll be able to fly it with reasonable (all skills to L4 minimum) inside of two months. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:48:00 - [8] Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. Let's not turn this into an ECM discussion. This was just a contratulatory post for LC, his alt and his buddy. I'm not complaining about the ECM. I clearly said in the OP that I simply underestimated his Falcon and just didn't expect it to completley shut down my whole team when we were fit with ECCM. I will say that I won't be engaging any more gangs with EW support until I can get at least 2-3 more Falcon/Scorp pilots solidly skilled up. There's just no point. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:49:00 - [9] Well it's annoying that ECCM has stacking penalties while ECM doesn't... At least it's possible to overload those. Funny that damps were called "overpowered" when they can't even be overloaded.
Arekhon Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. Let's not turn this into an ECM discussion. This was just a contratulatory post for LC, his alt and his buddy. I'm not complaining about the ECM. I clearly said in the OP that I simply underestimated his Falcon and just didn't expect it to completley shut down my whole team when we were fit with ECCM. I will say that I won't be engaging any more gangs with EW support until I can get at least 2-3 more Falcon/Scorp pilots solidly skilled up. There's just no point. accept my apology for derailing your thread! Arek Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap [BEES]
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. Let's not turn this into an ECM discussion. This was just a contratulatory post for LC, his alt and his buddy. I'm not complaining about the ECM. I clearly said in the OP that I simply underestimated his Falcon and just didn't expect it to completley shut down my whole team when we were fit with ECCM. I will say that I won't be engaging any more gangs with EW support until I can get at least 2-3 more Falcon/Scorp pilots solidly skilled up. There's just no point. accept my apology for derailing your thread! Arek No worries. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
LordChaos Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.04 11:43:00 - [12] Hey Bellum, was a very good fight i enjoyed it good news i have fraps , only problem is your Hyperion looked like it was violating my geddon in not soo good looking way lol. Geddon looked so dam small too. I will make a small movie of that fight. If you check the KB you will see my alt was on 4 kills only , i didn't jam your Hyperion in the start or the raven, but when the 2nd Hyperion came in i knew i wont be able to tank it. KB Fight the 2nd fight i started out at 30% armor. i jammed the 2 astartes when i was in 30% hull. u will see it all in fraps when i finish it. Anyways very good fight and much repsect for bringing it the first time and the 2nd time. The Master Of Chaos
Genius L0ci Bonnie and Clyde	Posted - 2008.01.04 13:38:00 - [13] thx for the fight Bellum u guys fought well. I remember screaming at LC to jump out because of his low armour so I could finish the job. He didnt die lol lucky git Your damn rokh pilot discoed about 8 of my ogre IIs grrr
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:12:00 - [14] Well tbh this thread doesnt deliver a nice fight it delivers a clear message that ecm is overpowered. 2 BS and 1 Support takes down 6 Bs and 2cmd. Want to see if anyone can replicate this with any other recon ship ?
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Gaia Thorn Well tbh this thread doesnt deliver a nice fight it delivers a clear message that ecm is overpowered. 2 BS and 1 Support takes down 6 Bs and 2cmd. Want to see if anyone can replicate this with any other recon ship ? Well, tbh if the other side had brought a support ship of their own (and I'm thinking of a nano drone boat when I say that), then that Falcon would be pretty much dead...
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:38:00 - [16] a very skilled falcon pilot with a good setup should jam that good. ECCM gives you a better chance of not being jammed, it doesnt give you immunity agains ECM
Xtreme Wrath Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Malken a very skilled falcon pilot with a good setup should jam that good. ECCM gives you a better chance of not being jammed, it doesnt give you immunity agains ECM QFT No one seems to say that Hugins or Rapiers are overpowered... Arazu? OMG! Seriously, there are plenty of ways to counter ECM if you prepare for it, ECCM usually give a better chance but as Malken says, it's not a gaurenteed, just better odds. Sounds like LC got lucky on some jam cycles to me. I have ECM trained quite well and in my rook (or falcon rest it's soul) I have some engagements where I can't seem to jam anything... go two days and hit another similar gang (with the same people in it in the same types of ships) and everything I lock up is screwed Seems to be a lot of luck/chance involved with all things being equal. Plus LC is just charmed that way. Chuck Norris uses a live rattlesnake for a condom.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:55:00 - [18] Dead or warped off, the effect is similar. Actually, this thread shows a fundamental lack of understanding of ECM and ECM boats. Although ships have been boosted, in terms of jamming ability, little has actually changed with Trinity. Before Trinity, the pre-eminent ECM boat was the Rook - it got up to 7 midslots of ECM, with 2 lowslots for SDAs and +20% ECM strength per level. And there were plenty of people running about telling us that ECM was useless. Now the pre-eminent ECM boat is the Falcon, which gets, er, up to 7 midslots of ECM, with 3 lowslots for SDAs and +20% ECM strength per level. The extra lowslot offers a 10% increase in ECM strength - if you choose to take it and don't for example add a plate or istab. So what does this mean? Max-skilled Rook in pre-Trinity could get an ECM strength, on a racial jammer, around 12.7ish. Now, the Falcon can get an ECM stength of ~10% more - say, 14.0ish. If we're jamming a Hype of sensor strength 23 (or ~45 with ECCM), then the pre-Trinity Rook got, using a racial jammer, a ~55% jam chance (~28% with ECCM). In contrast, the Trinity Falcon gets a ~61% jam chance (~31% with ECCM). So, referring to the OP, is that increase of (with ECCM) 3 percentage points responsible for your defeat - whereas previously, before Trinity, you would have won? Maybe - that's the point of ECM it's chance-based , but it's pretty unlikely, really - the chances that a pre-Trinity Rook would have performed a similar shutdown job. A far bigger contributing factor would appear to be your predictable monoracial, tactically limited gang, allowing the ECM pilot to fit magnetometric jammers and jam with impunity. In fact, since ECM boats frequently fitted a damper or two in pre-Trinity, it may actually be harder to keep a target permajammed now. Now, obviously there's more to ECM boats than just jamming chances - but that wasn't what the OP was talking about.
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:19:00 - [19] Nerf stupid people.
Lucifer Fellblade Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:46:00 - [20] Originally by: Awox Nerf stupid people. Agreeing with Awox/Dividing by zero. ------
William DeMeo Gallente the united	Posted - 2008.01.04 16:17:00 - [21] LOL less then a month after damps got nerfed to hell people start saying ECM is overpowered? jesus christ EVE has the whiniest community I've ever seen in an MMO. Stop whining over ECM if you lose to it, it's just as valid as any other game mechanic and is FAR from overpowered. Everybody loses ships sometimes, sometimes to things that are out of their hands, it's a part of the game. I really hope CCP don't listen to these recent "oh no the falcon is overpowered" whines. The falcon has been the same for over a year and now you whine? Makes me lol. Yarr
The Tzar	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:17:00 - [22] Saw this gang the other night stomping around Mara. This time LC had an arazu as well as falcon, am I glad we didn't engage! Hilarious baiting though as a lone domi flits around the belts not shooting any rats. Multi-system scouting to avoid the loss Maybe a side-squad of stealth bombers to take out falcon close range?!?! Watch this space
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. here we go again it is only the ships w/ ECM roles that are tough. then again that is the way it should be. This DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!
M00dy Killed In Action The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:49:00 - [24] That's why ECM ships are always primary. Sun Zu would not be proud of you. RATatatatatat - Moody Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.04 18:50:00 - [25] Quote: In a stand up fight, I've never had a problem winning. Well, that's why E-WAR exists, so that it's not just a straight up gank vs tank by the numbers game. I hope that CCP will make recon damps as good as recon ECM's again though. Also, if all your guys had ECCM's fitted, it sounds like you must have gotten unlucky with the jamming, as otherwise I wouldn't expect a single falcon to keep you perma jammed either. How many cycles did the fight last?
Fuglife Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.04 18:51:00 - [26] Can i join you LC? :) pllleeaasseeee
Dr Slice mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:38:00 - [27] Begun, the Falcon Wars has.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:51:00 - [28] Originally by: LordChaos Hey Bellum, was a very good fight i enjoyed it good news i have fraps , only problem is your Hyperion looked like it was violating my geddon in not soo good looking way lol. Geddon looked so dam small too. I will make a small movie of that fight. If you check the KB you will see my alt was on 4 kills only , i didn't jam your Hyperion in the start or the raven, but when the 2nd Hyperion came in i knew i wont be able to tank it. KB Fight the 2nd fight i started out at 30% armor. i jammed the 2 astartes when i was in 30% hull. u will see it all in fraps when i finish it. Anyways very good fight and much repsect for bringing it the first time and the 2nd time. I agree that you didn't use the Falcon at first. I wanted to see how my Hype was going to hold up before I warped in any extra firepower to finish the job. I knew I'd need a little more DPS than I had to pop your two ships, so I had a few more come in, and of course I was expecting the Falcon, I was just waiting for it to be deployed. Everyone was fitted with ECCM, and yes the Falcon wasn't on my Hype's KM, but it wasn't needed on my Hype, just the others, which it was. But this brings me back to my original point: I underestimated the Falcon and what it takes these days to PVP in Eve: more Falcons than the enemy, with more EW skills and faction ECM. The Falcon was changed for Trinity. Now it has the same bonuses as the Rook, which is very different than pre-Trinity. Now I know just to not undock unless I have n+1 Falcons than the enemy gang lol. In reply to the guy who asked "why didn't you just use an Arazu?": because we're in low-sec, and Arazus get vaporized by the gate guns when you're inside sentry range, and damps don't have an optimal range much longer than 45km or so, and LC made sure that his Falcon was well inside sentry range. Drones are also somewhat effective against ECM ships, but again, being inside sentry range, drones are useless. LC knows this, as do I. That's why he chooses to engage like he does. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: In a stand up fight, I've never had a problem winning. Well, that's why E-WAR exists, so that it's not just a straight up gank vs tank by the numbers game. I hope that CCP will make recon damps as good as recon ECM's again though. Also, if all your guys had ECCM's fitted, it sounds like you must have gotten unlucky with the jamming, as otherwise I wouldn't expect a single falcon to keep you perma jammed either. How many cycles did the fight last? A few cycles I would guess. I don't know what level other people play the game at, but most of the heavy fights I get into are with max skilled players. Take all the EFT info and then add another 10-15% ON TOP of what the Level 5 skills are telling you due to implants and hardwirings. To me that is normal. At that level, if you're jammed maybe 2-3 times in a fight, you're so far behind the damage curve that you've already lost. In Trinity I hadn't really fought many max skilled Falcons, and I was used to fighting pre-Trinity Falcons, without the ECM strength buff that they got. I messed up and paid for it. I should have treated it like a Rook and just not engaged instead of putting best in game ECCM on my ships and thinking it would be enough. ECCM has proven combat ineffective. Even when you specifically fit it to counter the one thing that it's designed to do: stop specialized jamming ships from jamming you. So there is only one thing I know of to stop a Falcon- another Falcon, or three. So don't hate me two months from now when my gangs are 80% Falcons, 20% firepower. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Dimitry Kalashnikov The Black Fleet	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:19:00 - [30] Wait a minute... you entered a fight where you were perma-jammed the whole time and slaughtered with no mercy. How was that a GF? Sounds more like an HP (Hopeless Fight). Not your fault of course. The very concept of ECM is flawed in my book, but I digress. ============================================== The thousand ships of the Black Fleet Corporation descent upon you! Our Void L will blot out the sun!
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:44:00 - [31] I'm sure it was short notice, but none of your friends thought about Projected ECCM? There are so many ways to counter EW/Recons, yet noone bothers even trying. Quit whining (not directed at OP) and learn how to play the game. ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Dimitry Kalashnikov The Black Fleet	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:45:00 - [32] Originally by: PCaBoo Quit whining (not directed at OP) and learn how to play the game. If that was directed at me then you need to learn the difference between expression of opinion and actual whining. ============================================== The thousand ships of the Black Fleet Corporation descent upon you! Our Void L will blot out the sun!
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Originally by: PCaBoo Quit whining (not directed at OP) and learn how to play the game. If that was directed at me then you need to learn the difference between expression of opinion and actual whining. buhu t2 tissue 4u? and no, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Dimitry Kalashnikov The Black Fleet	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:03:00 - [34] Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Originally by: PCaBoo Quit whining (not directed at OP) and learn how to play the game. If that was directed at me then you need to learn the difference between expression of opinion and actual whining. buhu t2 tissue 4u? and no, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Yes. Tissue for me please. ============================================== The thousand ships of the Black Fleet Corporation descent upon you! Our Void L will blot out the sun!
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:11:00 - [35] Originally by: PCaBoo I'm sure it was short notice, but none of your friends thought about Projected ECCM? There are so many ways to counter EW/Recons, yet noone bothers even trying. Quit whining (not directed at OP) and learn how to play the game. Projected ECCM is the stupidest idea ever. It's a mid slot. A slot that could be taken up by ECCM proper. Additionally, anything that is able to jam your ship will be able to jam your other ship projecting the ECCM on to one of your gang mates. I've tried it plenty on test. The best thing to get rid of ECM is simply more ECM. Not damps, not ECCM, just more ECM. And drones have a hard time with targets at 100km. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:16:00 - [36] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Projected ECCM is the stupidest idea ever. It's a mid slot. A slot that could be taken up by ECCM proper. Additionally, anything that is able to jam your ship will be able to jam your other ship projecting the ECCM on to one of your gang mates. I've tried it plenty on test. The best thing to get rid of ECM is simply more ECM. Not damps, not ECCM, just more ECM. And drones have a hard time with targets at 100km. lol? Do you have any idea how ECM/ECCM works? ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Dimitry Kalashnikov The Black Fleet	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:18:00 - [37] Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Bellum Eternus Projected ECCM is the stupidest idea ever. It's a mid slot. A slot that could be taken up by ECCM proper. Additionally, anything that is able to jam your ship will be able to jam your other ship projecting the ECCM on to one of your gang mates. I've tried it plenty on test. The best thing to get rid of ECM is simply more ECM. Not damps, not ECCM, just more ECM. And drones have a hard time with targets at 100km. lol? Do you have any idea how ECM/ECCM works? Why don't you tell us. ============================================== The thousand ships of the Black Fleet Corporation descent upon you! Our Void L will blot out the sun!
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:30:00 - [38] Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Why don't you tell us. seriously? ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Dimitry Kalashnikov The Black Fleet	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:35:00 - [39] Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Why don't you tell us. seriously? Yes. ============================================== The thousand ships of the Black Fleet Corporation descent upon you! Our Void L will blot out the sun!
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:38:00 - [40] Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Why don't you tell us. seriously? Yes. ok. ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Dimitry Kalashnikov The Black Fleet	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:49:00 - [41] Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Why don't you tell us. seriously? Yes. ok. Well? ============================================== The thousand ships of the Black Fleet Corporation descent upon you! Our Void L will blot out the sun!
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:58:00 - [42] Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Why don't you tell us. seriously? Yes. ok. Well? im intrested in this... Btw falcon was excellent before the boost, why on earth it was boosted it beyond me, i dun mind as much though since i have one.
NightmareX Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:08:00 - [43] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/01/2008 23:11:28 Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Bellum Eternus Projected ECCM is the stupidest idea ever. It's a mid slot. A slot that could be taken up by ECCM proper. Additionally, anything that is able to jam your ship will be able to jam your other ship projecting the ECCM on to one of your gang mates. I've tried it plenty on test. The best thing to get rid of ECM is simply more ECM. Not damps, not ECCM, just more ECM. And drones have a hard time with targets at 100km. lol? Do you have any idea how ECM/ECCM works? Well then i can ask, do you know how those works?. Some months ago i did test my Machariel with ONLY ECCM modules in Med & Low slot, so my Ladar points was pretty high. Then i asked a Scorpion pilot with very good ECM skill to come to me to see if he could jam me. Then he was with me, and started to lock me, and guess what happened right after he got a lock on me?. Yes he jammed me, and he was even jamming me pretty good. So in other words, the ECCM doesn't really work, because the ECM is chance based on whatever many Ladar points you have, or points for the other races. It might help you to get lesser jam cycles on you, but it doesn't remove the ability to get jammed.
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 00:36:00 - [44] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/01/2008 23:15:50 Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Bellum Eternus Projected ECCM is the stupidest idea ever. It's a mid slot. A slot that could be taken up by ECCM proper. Additionally, anything that is able to jam your ship will be able to jam your other ship projecting the ECCM on to one of your gang mates. I've tried it plenty on test. The best thing to get rid of ECM is simply more ECM. Not damps, not ECCM, just more ECM. And drones have a hard time with targets at 100km. lol? Do you have any idea how ECM/ECCM works? Well then i can ask, do you know how those works?. Some months ago on Sisi i did test my Machariel with ONLY T2 ECCM modules in Med & Low slot, so my Ladar points was pretty high. Then i asked a Scorpion pilot with very good ECM skill to come to me to see if he could jam me. Then he was with me, and started to lock me, and guess what happened right after he got a lock on me?. Yes he jammed me, and he was even jamming me pretty good. So in other words, the ECCM doesn't really work, because the ECM is chance based on whatever many Ladar points you have, or points for the other races. It might help you to get lesser jam cycles on you, but it doesn't remove the ability to get jammed. Ship sensor strength vs Opp ship sensor strength +/- ECM strength * ECCM (or projected) * fail multiplier. So saying that 96% ECCM mod is useless when compared to the 120% bonus for projected ECCM makes me wonder how that is the case. It's a 24% bonus to your sensor strength, which isn't that much, but obviously helps your cause. ECM doesn't stack and ECCM/Proj ECCM has stacking penalties. I still find it rather amusing that all the older pirates in this thread are clueless or playing dumb about this matter. Thinking one mod will save you is foolish. Thinking one mod will wtfpwn everyone is also foolish. LC will undoubtedly continue bbq'ing those who are lazy and eventually will lose his falcon to those who aren't. ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.05 01:12:00 - [45] Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/01/2008 23:15:50 Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Bellum Eternus Projected ECCM is the stupidest idea ever. It's a mid slot. A slot that could be taken up by ECCM proper. Additionally, anything that is able to jam your ship will be able to jam your other ship projecting the ECCM on to one of your gang mates. I've tried it plenty on test. The best thing to get rid of ECM is simply more ECM. Not damps, not ECCM, just more ECM. And drones have a hard time with targets at 100km. lol? Do you have any idea how ECM/ECCM works? Well then i can ask, do you know how those works?. Some months ago on Sisi i did test my Machariel with ONLY T2 ECCM modules in Med & Low slot, so my Ladar points was pretty high. Then i asked a Scorpion pilot with very good ECM skill to come to me to see if he could jam me. Then he was with me, and started to lock me, and guess what happened right after he got a lock on me?. Yes he jammed me, and he was even jamming me pretty good. So in other words, the ECCM doesn't really work, because the ECM is chance based on whatever many Ladar points you have, or points for the other races. It might help you to get lesser jam cycles on you, but it doesn't remove the ability to get jammed. *Ship sensor strength vs Opp ship sensor strength +/- ECM strength ECCM (or projected) * fail multiplier.** So saying that 96% ECCM mod is useless when compared to the 120% bonus for projected ECCM makes me wonder how that is the case. It's a 24% bonus to your sensor strength, which isn't that much, but obviously helps your cause. ECM doesn't stack and ECCM/Proj ECCM has stacking penalties. I still find it rather amusing that all the older pirates in this thread are clueless or playing dumb about this matter. Thinking one mod will save you is foolish. Thinking one mod will wtfpwn everyone is also foolish. LC will undoubtedly continue bbq'ing those who are lazy and eventually will lose his falcon to those who aren't. The attacking and defending ships sensor strengths are not compared when calculating whether or not someone is jammed. Clearly you don't know wtf you are talking about. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
LordChaos Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.05 01:48:00 - [46] dam this has turned into a Falcon/ ECM thread lol ok i admit it i had faction ECM lol :)~ come on guys and Bellum check your own kb u guys have rooks jamming 1 ship while u all gank it , whats the difference between what u guys do what i did ? i could have just jammed u the min u went close to me and wouldn't have got almost any damage but i didn't . and tbh i never do. i only start jamming when i know i cant tank or in very low armor. Check my kb and u will see alot of times my falcon didnt save me and i even sometimes get the same treat from a falcon. GF to all again anyways will have a fraps for you all to see soon. The Master Of Chaos
kidrob Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.05 01:53:00 - [47] Edited by: kidrob on 05/01/2008 01:54:12 Why must ppl keep on crying? Falcon, Damagebattleships and stuff are part of this game - so just play it and learn! Btw: If u have known, that there will be a Falcon: - why did u engage? - where was YOUR falcon? ... No mercy for pirates!! Cheers
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.05 02:08:00 - [48] Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 05/01/2008 02:14:55 Originally by: LordChaos dam this has turned into a Falcon/ ECM thread lol ok i admit it i had faction ECM lol :)~ come on guys and Bellum check your own kb u guys have rooks jamming 1 ship while u all gank it , whats the difference between what u guys do what i did ? i could have just jammed u the min u went close to me and wouldn't have got almost any damage but i didn't . and tbh i never do. i only start jamming when i know i cant tank or in very low armor. Check my kb and u will see alot of times my falcon didnt save me and i even sometimes get the same treat from a falcon. GF to all again anyways will have a fraps for you all to see soon. Yeah, of all the kills on our KB, we have Rooks/Falcons on about 90% of our kills. It's crazy. We use ECM constantly. Not really. There is a total of five kills on our killboard of my buddy Pumpkin Bread using a Rook, and they are all within 24 hours of each other, and two of the 'kills' are a pod and a shuttle. Why? Because my buddy Pumpkin Bread was goofing off with his Rook. That's why. So a Rook showing up on a Thorax or Exequror killmail that we killed has nothing to do with how much EW we use, as he was doing it for laughs. You use it as a crutch, which is perfectly valid, and I don't. At least not for another two months. Then I'm going to use as much EW as possible, just like everyone else. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Exzor	Posted - 2008.01.05 02:58:00 - [49] OP is pretty butthurt and thread needs to die before CCP freak out and delete the falcon.
ReePeR McAllem The Carebear Stare Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.05 03:07:00 - [50] The falcon and othe ecm ships, they do their specific role, and cant solo. But in comparison to what the other force recons do in gang, they are quite overpowered. Can the curse shut down 3/4 bs in a fleet? no Can a arazu shut down 3/4 people in a fleet (used to be able to do a couple pre-nerf) Can a Rapier shut down 3/4 in a fleet hells no. I dont think they need to nerf the strength of the ecm specific ships, just the amount they can jam at once, say limit it to 2...
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:08:00 - [51] Originally by: Exzor OP is pretty butthurt and thread needs to die before CCP freak out and delete the falcon. I'm sure as soon as I get my Falcon pilot maxed out they'll nerf the hell outta it lol. I'm about two months away from a nicely skilled Falcon pilot. You've been warned. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:13:00 - [52] Originally by: ReePeR McAllem The falcon and othe ecm ships, they do their specific role, and cant solo. But in comparison to what the other force recons do in gang, they are quite overpowered. Can the curse shut down 3/4 bs in a fleet? no Can a arazu shut down 3/4 people in a fleet (used to be able to do a couple pre-nerf) Can a Rapier shut down 3/4 in a fleet hells no. I dont think they need to nerf the strength of the ecm specific ships, just the amount they can jam at once, say limit it to 2... Gah... you already said "can't solo in it"... hmmm yeah, Working as intendedÖ ------------ Originally by: Praxis1452 you win eve
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 05:57:00 - [53] Originally by: Bellum Eternus [ The attacking and defending ships sensor strengths are not compared when calculating whether or not someone is jammed. Clearly you don't know wtf you are talking about. After reading up on it. I stand corrected. That's how it was explained to me long ago and I never felt the need to question it until now. I still stand by my other statements though. ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 06:05:00 - [54] Originally by: ReePeR McAllem The falcon and othe ecm ships, they do their specific role, and cant solo. But in comparison to what the other force recons do in gang, they are quite overpowered. Can the curse shut down 3/4 bs in a fleet? no Can a arazu shut down 3/4 people in a fleet (used to be able to do a couple pre-nerf) Can a Rapier shut down 3/4 in a fleet hells no. I dont think they need to nerf the strength of the ecm specific ships, just the amount they can jam at once, say limit it to 2... can a falcon nos/neut you like a pilgrim? No. can a falcon tackle you from 40+km's? No. Can a falcon web you from 40km? No. Does everyone want to fly the same ships with the same bonuses? No. I don't see why the falcon needed a boost before... but I definately don't see a need to nerf it (below what it was pre-boost). A blackbird can just as easily provide similar results, as can a Kitsune. ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Lochmar Fiendhiem Caldari International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.05 06:49:00 - [55] Originally by: LordChaos Anyways very good fight and much repsect for bringing it the first time and the 2nd time. this ftw. kudos to the op for 'bringing it' twice and still smiling. made my evening :D Originally by: Halkin bob is dead, goons are great, cheese is cheesy, there we go no need for any more threads
Mi Lai The Black Dragon Society	Posted - 2008.01.05 08:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Galliana Foresta ECM needs a nerf tbh. Pity to see that Hype go down.. FRAPS it perchance? Nope, LC needs a nerf. ECM is fine.
Trepkos Cabalistical Technologies	Posted - 2008.01.05 08:35:00 - [57] <3 Genius L0ci Keep up the good work. -------- Cabalistical Technologies
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition	Posted - 2008.01.05 09:33:00 - [58] Paper is fine. Nerf rock.
Wizard Without Reason	Posted - 2008.01.05 11:18:00 - [59] Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: ReePeR McAllem The falcon and othe ecm ships, they do their specific role, and cant solo. But in comparison to what the other force recons do in gang, they are quite overpowered. Can the curse shut down 3/4 bs in a fleet? no Can a arazu shut down 3/4 people in a fleet (used to be able to do a couple pre-nerf) Can a Rapier shut down 3/4 in a fleet hells no. I dont think they need to nerf the strength of the ecm specific ships, just the amount they can jam at once, say limit it to 2... can a falcon nos/neut you like a pilgrim? No. can a falcon tackle you from 40+km's? No. Can a falcon web you from 40km? No. Does everyone want to fly the same ships with the same bonuses? No. I don't see why the falcon needed a boost before... but I definately don't see a need to nerf it (below what it was pre-boost). A blackbird can just as easily provide similar results, as can a Kitsune. This made me chuckle, get of your high horse fella having a go, you obviously dont like being wrong do you? Falcon doesnt need to be able to do ANY of the other stuff those other ships do because jamm = no one atacking you at all, the other ships can be countered much easier. No im not calling for a nerf on ECM.
burek Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.01.05 13:05:00 - [60] TBH, it's quiet clear why this thread was started... Better to yell publicly first, GF & ECM is overpowered, we was permajammed... before this slaughter comes into the public eye some other way. It's called saving face. amirite? sure I am
LordChaos Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.05 13:35:00 - [61] Uploading fraps for this fight. 1 hour and will post link The Master Of Chaos
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.05 13:39:00 - [62] LC sucks
Shaydin Minmatar Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.01.05 14:25:00 - [63] Originally by: Kaleeb LC sucks Nice work LC, keep does vids coming :D and for cryin out loud sort out ur compression, aspect ratio, resolution, file size and everything else !!! Oh and Kaleeb i agree ....
Dimitry Kalashnikov The Black Fleet	Posted - 2008.01.05 16:25:00 - [64] Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Bellum Eternus [ The attacking and defending ships sensor strengths are not compared when calculating whether or not someone is jammed. Clearly you don't know wtf you are talking about. After reading up on it. I stand corrected. That's how it was explained to me long ago and I never felt the need to question it until now. Now do you understand why I asked you to tell us how it works? ============================================== The thousand ships of the Black Fleet Corporation descent upon you! Our Void L will blot out the sun!
Praxis1452 The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.05 17:57:00 - [65] I don't think that ECM needs to be nerfed but ECCM seems to need to be boosted. ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
Rixsta Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.05 18:10:00 - [66] Falcon is a great ship - that's indisputable, i mean with maxed out skills and fit to jam you're looking at a jam strength of about 15. To be fair if you knew you were going to be facing a Falcon you should of set up at least one ship to counter it, a speed fitted HAC / Recon can close the 100km+ fairly quickly, and to be honest chances are if you see a HAC chugging towards your falcon you'll cloak, warp and look to reposition, because the second it gets in range that means you have to devote all your jammers to get it off your nuts and warp off, leaving the targets you truly do want jammed, unjammed. That's bad PVP right there. -------------------------------
Galliana Foresta Gallente Fleeting Moments of Insanity	Posted - 2008.01.05 19:43:00 - [67] I can has FRAPS link plox? ---------------
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.05 20:45:00 - [68] i demand more LC fraps tbh. Nothing i love more than watching some proper amarr pvp just to convince myself that im playing the right race.
Ketzerei	Posted - 2008.01.05 20:52:00 - [69] hurray for insurgency's policy of no pvping in empire OH WAIT NO some people apear to be above insurgency rules
LordChaos Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.05 21:04:00 - [70] fraps has been uploaded check a thread below this by me The Master Of Chaos
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.05 21:08:00 - [71] Originally by: Ketzerei hurray for insurgency's policy of no pvping in empire OH WAIT NO some people apear to be above insurgency rules Actually negative standing/pirates/war targets are fair game Mr alt. We only request that the priority is 0.0 and our major ops
Ketzerei	Posted - 2008.01.05 21:14:00 - [72] Edited by: Ketzerei on 05/01/2008 21:15:03 Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Ketzerei hurray for insurgency's policy of no pvping in empire OH WAIT NO some people apear to be above insurgency rules Actually negative standing/pirates/war targets are fair game Mr alt. We only request that the priority is 0.0 and our major ops your face is an alt tbh
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 21:22:00 - [73] Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Originally by: PCaBoo Originally by: Bellum Eternus [ The attacking and defending ships sensor strengths are not compared when calculating whether or not someone is jammed. Clearly you don't know wtf you are talking about. After reading up on it. I stand corrected. That's how it was explained to me long ago and I never felt the need to question it until now. Now do you understand why I asked you to tell us how it works? No. :p I just thought you liked replying. ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
PCaBoo RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 21:27:00 - [74] Originally by: Wizard This made me chuckle, get of your high horse fella having a go, you obviously dont like being wrong do you? Falcon doesnt need to be able to do ANY of the other stuff those other ships do because jamm = no one atacking you at all, the other ships can be countered much easier. No im not calling for a nerf on ECM. "Chuck Norris is never wrong. There's Chuck Norris' answer and then there's the other answer, about to take a roundhouse to the face." ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.05 23:13:00 - [75] Originally by: Ketzerei Edited by: Ketzerei on 05/01/2008 21:15:03 Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Ketzerei hurray for insurgency's policy of no pvping in empire OH WAIT NO some people apear to be above insurgency rules Actually negative standing/pirates/war targets are fair game Mr alt. We only request that the priority is 0.0 and our major ops your face is an alt tbh Yes what a clever response
LordChaos Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.05 23:46:00 - [76] Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Ketzerei Edited by: Ketzerei on 05/01/2008 21:15:03 Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Ketzerei hurray for insurgency's policy of no pvping in empire OH WAIT NO some people apear to be above insurgency rules Actually negative standing/pirates/war targets are fair game Mr alt. We only request that the priority is 0.0 and our major ops your face is an alt tbh Yes what a clever response ROFL i bet it took him alot of time for that come back Kaleeb lol "Your face is an alt tbh" The Master Of Chaos
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.06 00:05:00 - [77] As a Falcon pilot, I have just a couple things to say: 1) He beat you because of the setup of the fight, not just because of the Falcon. Falcons die very quickly to anything that gets a lock on them, and to any drones that auto-aggro. The mistake was not engaging a gang with ECM support, but engaging in a situation where you are unable to use the various counters that are normally available. Drawing sentry aggro was the major mistake, with drones or a recon of your own, you would've had a much better chance of either killing or driving off the Falcon. 2) Saying you can perma-jam 3-4 ships is massively optimistic, especially when battleships are involved. Based on experience, I can usually perma-jam one ship, jam two enough to keep them heavily disrupted, jam three at 50/50 or below, and jamming four is impossible to do with any consistency. My rule is count on jamming two, with a third as a nice bonus when it happens. I mean, sure, you have the exceptions to the rule where you hit with all 6 jammers on 6 different ships, but you also have the exceptions to the rule where you miss with all 6 on a single ship (have fun counter-jamming those recons).
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.06 00:25:00 - [78] Originally by: Ketzerei hurray for insurgency's policy of no pvping in empire OH WAIT NO some people apear to be above insurgency rules we dont actually we just send in LC to keep everyone on their toes now and then

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