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FAO: SF & U'K (concerning PAK 0.0 policy)

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Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.08 18:57:00 - [91] Ok, here is a question. No need to answer it if you don't want to, just curious. If PIE have a problem with people allying with anti-amarrian forces, why doesn't the CVA have one? No flamebait, honestly, but I can't make out where you are standing atm. To Mr. Garreck: I know you don't approve our current approach towards Providence. Look at it like this: By our Burn Providence Campaign we have forced everyone entering the area to clearly make a statement whether he is willing to respect our struggle for freedom or whether he will set his wish for profit over the pain inflicted on our brothers. It has shown that although many people state publicly understanding to our cause they are not willing to put their hand where their mouth is. We have demasqued the falsehood of their statements and the dishonour in their actions. While I can least accept that you and your like have a reason more than greed behind your actions the actions of these people are just shameful.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 18:59:00 - [92] Originally by: Kabajashi San Ok, here is a question. No need to answer it if you don't want to, just curious. If PIE have a problem with people allying with anti-amarrian forces, why doesn't the CVA have one? No flamebait, honestly, but I can't make out where you are standing atm. To Mr. Garreck: I know you don't approve our current approach towards Providence. Look at it like this: By our Burn Providence Campaign we have forced everyone entering the area to clearly make a statement whether he is willing to respect our struggle for freedom or whether he will set his wish for profit over the pain inflicted on our brothers. It has shown that although many people state publicly understanding to our cause they are not willing to put their hand where their mouth is. We have demasqued the falsehood of their statements and the dishonour in their actions. While I can least accept that you and your like have a reason more than greed behind your actions the actions of these people are just shameful. are you suggesting that PAK are in any way acting out of greed? Were that the case I don't think this public announcement would exist and we certainly wouldn't have come to terms with CVA. PAK is recruiting!
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.08 19:02:00 - [93] Please don't let me be misunderstood. I was more referring to other entities living in the area much longer than you and the usual neut that comes to Providence because CVA advertises it as safe haven. I don't know about your intentions but your ignorance towards the question of slavery speaks for itself in my eyes. You think that fighting against piracy is a honourable thing to do. I think if it means contributing to the oppression of our brothers it is not.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.08 19:09:00 - [94] Originally by: Kehmor how is this an different from the way SF act in high sec. You only shoot those that concord deem -10 while operating in concord controlled systems. Yet many of these you would shoot while elsewhere? Am I right? Actually you are incorrect. Star Fraction does not shoot -10 security level pilots unless we ALSO have them tagged to -10 Hostiles to Star Fraction. We don't care what Concord have to say about a pilots personal record - we do care about their corporation/alliance ACTIONS towards Star Fraction. If we see a -10 sec level NEUTRAL pod with a huge bounty drifting by one of our patrols in lowsec we will not shoot it. By the same measure, if we see a prime -10 hostile target traveling in Lowsec we will attack regardless of criminal flagging and Concord security standing loss. We also reserve the right to attack in hisec against a non-wardecced -10 target if and when the circumstances were appropriate and damage inflicted would equal or exceed the weight of shipping lost. Yes Kehmor, the Star Fraction will "suicide-gank" a -10 freighter if we believe we can do it, and the damage inflicted will be significant and worth the cost of the operation. Point being we only care about concord classification insomuch is it affects operational and opportunity cost of engagements. In all ways and times it is Star Fraction standing that sets the ultimate authority for our pilots on target/neutral ROE. No other entity in the star cluster has authority over our pilots. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 19:14:00 - [95] And we only care about CVA's standings in so much as it allows us to effectively operate in providence. At this time we beleive we can operate more effectively against pirate forces in providence while respecting the rules laid down by the ruling power. If this means one or two targets are off limits to us in their jurisdiction so be it. It is better than wasting time firing upon CVA who pose no real threat to the innocent capsuleers of New Eden. PAK is recruiting!
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.08 19:22:00 - [96] Originally by: Kehmor And we only care about CVA's standings in so much as it allows us to effectively operate in providence. At this time we beleive we can operate more effectively against pirate forces in providence while respecting the rules laid down by the ruling power. If this means one or two targets are off limits to us in their jurisdiction so be it. It is better than wasting time firing upon CVA who pose no real threat to the innocent capsuleers of New Eden. I think you mean "who pose no real threat to innocents who have decided to comply with the amarrian supremacist agenda in Providence." there Kehmor. And since as I think most agree there are no real Pirates in Providence you are inevitably going to be spending your time shooting CVA's political enemies. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 19:34:00 - [97] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Kehmor And we only care about CVA's standings in so much as it allows us to effectively operate in providence. At this time we beleive we can operate more effectively against pirate forces in providence while respecting the rules laid down by the ruling power. If this means one or two targets are off limits to us in their jurisdiction so be it. It is better than wasting time firing upon CVA who pose no real threat to the innocent capsuleers of New Eden. I think you mean "who pose no real threat to innocents who have decided to comply with the amarrian supremacist agenda in Providence." there Kehmor. And since as I think most agree there are no real Pirates in Providence you are inevitably going to be spending your time shooting CVA's political enemies. I guess we are not part of that "most". PAK is recruiting!
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.08 19:47:00 - [98] Originally by: Octavinus Augustus I think it is time for me to express a personal point of view here. Originally by: The Cosmopolite I think it is worth you noting that the reaction of one of the CVA's 'Holder' alliance vassals is to recommend you set us red despite the fact we do not shoot neutrals. I am glad you are ignoring them for the moment but be prepared for more of the same behind closed doors. Let us open the doors shall we? It is clear that SF does follow their own rather twisted version of NRDS policy. It is also clear that you reserve the right to set anyone to red given prior notice. Finally, it is clear that your ultimate aim is to "free" Providence by removing CVA and any who support us or abide by the rules we set. So if you should succeed in removing Severence (which you won't) who will be next on your list? Any who choose to make a living in Providence is likely to end on your list at some point. When will you be targetting GoGo and his corp/alliance? CVA only demand that a resident of Providence do not engage in acts of piracy and limits his targets to known enemies of our rule. We do not demand that any resident should fight on our behalf or risk be declared our enemies. In reality, that is what both U'K and SF does. Does that make you pirates? I think not. A pirate is one who fights simply for personal profit and cares not whom he targets. At least both your organisations have some sense of honour and apply your ROE's aimed at furthering your twisted political aims. Of course the end result for the civilians plying their trade in Providence and who ends up under your guns is quite the same. I don't think it matters much if you're targetted by pirates or fanatics in the end. You must fight back or die. It is as simple as that. Many have realized this. That is one of the reasons why the list of CVA friends who will actively support our efforts in Providence is so extensive as it is. Rubbish. Sev3rance were attacked because they attacked us first. If PAK attacks us then we will do the same, if they don't then they are no threat to us and we will not attack them. The neutrals in providence that are aligned with CVA/Sev3rance but never shot us or are known to have passed intel about us (not just a guess such as sev3rance shooting shuttles but solid proof) have always been able to rat/mine/do what they want freely in providence without us bothering them. We only set 1 alliance to red in this campaign without prior agressing because of their open declaration to shoot us as well as passing intel on us in local. You are wrong about our ultimate aim as well. It really doesn't get any simpler than this. We will NOT shoot PAK if they are truely neutral towards us.
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.08 20:16:00 - [99] Originally by: Kabajashi San Ok, here is a question. No need to answer it if you don't want to, just curious. If PIE have a problem with people allying with anti-amarrian forces, why doesn't the CVA have one? CVA is operating in a different situation than we are and they are doing so admirably. CVA's policy decisions have yet to prove detrimental to the empire in any noticeable way, so blatant attempts like this to get CVA and PIE arguing over the minor disagreements that may exist are doomed to failure. If PAK wish to fight to destroy common enemies, then more power to them. It takes time, however, for a transition such as this to be enacted, and more time for it to be confirmed as an actual transition rather than a PR stunt. I truly doubt that GoGo is so naive to believe that we would trust her motives this early in her new career. But what we can do is get out of her way as long as it seems that PAK is living up to this new agenda. We have changed PAK's status from "Kill on Sight" to "Potentially hostile, be on your guard but don't shoot first," and we will be watching to see whether that will last. If this change is sincere, then I applaud their decision and I hope to see them as an force supporting the rule of rational law in the future. May God guide them towards the path to redemption. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 20:32:00 - [100] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri We have changed PAK's status from "Kill on Sight" to "Potentially hostile, be on your guard but don't shoot first," and we will be watching to see whether that will last. Good to finally get a clear answer on this. It is a descision I am sure, we will not make you regret. PAK is recruiting!
Conlin Gallente Yiotul Fighters Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.08 20:44:00 - [101] Edited by: Conlin on 08/01/2008 20:46:01 Originally by: GoGo Yubari Originally by: Conlin Welcome to the mad house If your words are true , then you will obviously be avoiding KBP where atm there is a territorial strife . This will benefit both of us . Current sov owners are in the practice of using nuetrals to benefit their own means , but it wont be a problem if you plan to stick to your agenda as quoted here. We will almost always come to Providence via KBP. Any forces that present a clear and present danger to us found camping the gate, which include yours, will be terminated with extreme prejudice. Do you want me to give you advance warning so you can clear the gate? You make a statement suggesting you will avoid territorial systems then have a hissy fit re : kbp . You make no sense . If that is an attempt to scare us from maintaining our blockade then I suggest you try a bit harder , because right now your just making your initial statement to be a lie . And leads us to believe you have another agenda here . In fact you only seem to be upsetting everybody , god forbid , but maybe we should all just get together and how should I say this ? , treat you with extreme predujice ? .
GoGo Yubari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 20:49:00 - [102] Edited by: GoGo Yubari on 08/01/2008 20:56:12 Originally by: Conlin You make a statement suggesting you will avoid territorial systems then have a hissy fit re : kbp . You make no sense . If that is an attempt to scare us from maintaining our blockade then I suggest you try a bit harder , because right now your just making your initial statement to be a lie . And leads us to believe you have another agenda here . You are grasping for straws here. We'll gladly stay out of your territorial conflict. This has been demonstrated exhaustively. I suggested to your diplomat that we set each other to +10. This was denied. I'm now ready to give you warning each time we come through. You are apparently not interested. Your belligerence isn't going to stop us from coming to Providence via any route we want, because we don't think you can order us around, but there's no reason we have to shoot at each other. The ball is firmly in your court. PAK is recruiting!
Bacchanalian Stimulus	Posted - 2008.01.08 21:12:00 - [103] Originally by: Drykor Rubbish. Sev3rance were attacked because they attacked us first. Quite so. I seem to recall hunting Sanshas in low security space nearly a year ago in a spot of boredom and jumping through a gate only to find my Vexor under attack from a combined gang of CVA and the then-neutral S3verance. Glad to see that S3verance has paid dearly for my Vexor. On the current topic, I find PAK's submission to CVA rather gutless and sad. Castrating themselves in order to find targets of convenience is what it sounds like. ____________________ GM Sunshine > oops Neurotica > Hate to see a GM in your gang say 'oops'
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 21:37:00 - [104] Edited by: Kehmor on 08/01/2008 21:38:41 Originally by: Bacchanalian On the current topic, I find PAK's submission to CVA rather gutless and sad. Castrating themselves in order to find targets of convenience is what it sounds like. I find your meaningless **** flinging gutless and sad. PAK do not fight for convenience, we engage battle hardened pirates in order to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and put our ships and the lives of our crews at risk on a daily basis. CVA do not engage in these activites and so we have no argument with them, and it is obviously vastly preferable to maintain standings with those who do not stand in our way. It allows us to maintain focus. This is the precise reason we are open to negotiations with the political enemies of CVA, something I would hardly call submission. The simple fact is CVA are merely being more reasonable than U'K, they are not asking us to go against our ROE, U'K are. Any who have fought with or against PAK can tell you we have little difficulty looking after ourselves, so if you believe that this descision was made out of fear I am afraid you are very much mistaken. If you have a problem with our policy come do something about it or keep your opinions to yourself. We are doing nothing that goes against our stated goal. It is spineless opinionated filth like yourself that make me regret I am a part of a NRDS organisation, however that is the way it is. However I fail to see how this has anything to do with you, seeing as you are not a member of any organisation involved in this announcement. PAK is recruiting!
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.08 22:07:00 - [105] As far as I am concerned PAK still carries the taint of WarHounds legacy, but I will follow the directions of my CEO until you put a foot wrong. On another note, I see one Constantspin has replaced another, but the lies remain the same, and her degenerate followers still make up the carnival of fools which is the Star Fraction. Your forked tongue will get you nowhere, again. ----------------------------------------------
Kabajashi San Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.08 22:20:00 - [106] Thank you for clarification, Mr. Lok'ri. It was in no way an attempt to drive a wedge betwen you, I know that your evil deeds will glue you together till the day we will end your existence. I'm just wondering whether CVA is still about reclaiming Providence or simply about holding it, that's all. To Mr. Khemor: What needed to be said was said. I can only laugh when you claim to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves but put a blind eye to the fate of our brothers. I will meet you in space as soon as I get this fricking ship going again. To Mrs. Yubari: I appreciate your effort in avoiding confrontation by giving a warning in advance. I just believe that being true warriors we both are we will not shy away from a fight whatever the odds may be. You seem to have made your decision to aggravate the life of our brothers, we will react accordingly.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 22:24:00 - [107] Originally by: Kabajashi San Thank you for clarification, Mr. Lok'ri. It was in no way an attempt to drive a wedge betwen you, I know that your evil deeds will glue you together till the day we will end your existence. I'm just wondering whether CVA is still about reclaiming Providence or simply about holding it, that's all. To Mr. Khemor: What needed to be said was said. I can only laugh when you claim to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves but put a blind eye to the fate of our brothers. I will meet you in space as soon as I get this fricking ship going again. To Mrs. Yubari: I appreciate your effort in avoiding confrontation by giving a warning in advance. I just believe that being true warriors we both are we will not shy away from a fight whatever the odds may be. You seem to have made your decision to aggravate the life of our brothers, we will react accordingly. My personal concern is for fellow pod pilots. I will admit I care little for your cause, but will not judge those who choose to waste their time on such issues. PAK is recruiting!
Kelsin	Posted - 2008.01.08 22:27:00 - [108] Originally by: Kehmor we engage battle hardened pirates in order to protect those who cannot protect themselves One of the points being raised is that in Providence you won't find many of either of those, because the conflicts in the region are by and large political. So no matter how noble your goals are, you're getting involved in politics by making a point of kowtowing to CVA. You'd do far better coming in with a declaration of a strong commitment to remaining a politically neutral anti-pirate force. What is so wrong with setting your own standings instead of looking to CVA for permissions?
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 22:31:00 - [109] Originally by: Kelsin Originally by: Kehmor we engage battle hardened pirates in order to protect those who cannot protect themselves One of the points being raised is that in Providence you won't find many of either of those, because the conflicts in the region are by and large political. So no matter how noble your goals are, you're getting involved in politics by making a point of kowtowing to CVA. You'd do far better coming in with a declaration of a strong commitment to remaining a politically neutral anti-pirate force. What is so wrong with setting your own standings instead of looking to CVA for permissions? This issue, along side many others being raised ove rand over again have all already been adressed. The issue at hand has been solved, that is who will set us to + and who will not. We have also stated our goals and policies very clearly. I think we can let this one die. PAK is recruiting!
Saraith Narr Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.08 22:51:00 - [110] Originally by: Kelsin So no matter how noble your goals are, you're getting involved in politics by making a point of kowtowing to CVA. You'd do far better coming in with a declaration of a strong commitment to remaining a politically neutral anti-pirate force. What is so wrong with setting your own standings instead of looking to CVA for permissions? It is impossible to be neutral in Providence, according to your allies. By theyre logic, you are either against CVA, or you are kill on sight. CVA does not appear to be demanding that PAK kills anyone on sight. But of course, it is CVA who are the domineering monsters here, and not Star Fractions allies. For you would not fly alongside an alliance that seeks to hold space and imposes its will and politics forcefully on others, would you? PAK, I salute your move towards lawfulness, and I will pray that you find sucsess, riches and more importanly salvation. Fear not the idle tongues of these vipers, for what they cannot defeat in battle they try to bring low with petty words and venal lies.
jtps Minmatar Si chou zhi lu	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:01:00 - [111] Edited by: jtps on 08/01/2008 23:01:09 Quote: PAK do not fight for convenience, we engage battle hardened pirates in order to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and put our ships and the lives of our crews at risk on a daily basis. Oh, such a noble incentive to enter Providence, but somehow slightly flawed. What seems to have escaped you is that Providence is a slaver controlled region, do you not regard slaves as those that "cannot protect themselves"? You fight to protect those stated above but find it morally correct to collaborate with a state that endoreses slavery? Somewhere along your path to rightousness or whatever you seek you lost your way... Take a look in the mirror and question your incentives, infact question your entire existence, you seem to be a living contradiction.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:12:00 - [112] Originally by: jtps Edited by: jtps on 08/01/2008 23:01:09 Quote: PAK do not fight for convenience, we engage battle hardened pirates in order to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and put our ships and the lives of our crews at risk on a daily basis. Oh, such a noble incentive to enter Providence, but somehow slightly flawed. What seems to have escaped you is that Providence is a slaver controlled region, do you not regard slaves as those that "cannot protect themselves"? You fight to protect those stated above but find it morally correct to collaborate with a state that endoreses slavery? Somewhere along your path to rightousness or whatever you seek you lost your way... Take a look in the mirror and question your incentives, infact question your entire existence, you seem to be a living contradiction. My personal opinion (not that of my corporation) is that slavery is completely acceptable. Care much? PAK is recruiting!
jtps Minmatar Si chou zhi lu	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:25:00 - [113] Originally by: Kehmor Originally by: jtps Edited by: jtps on 08/01/2008 23:01:09 Quote: PAK do not fight for convenience, we engage battle hardened pirates in order to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and put our ships and the lives of our crews at risk on a daily basis. Oh, such a noble incentive to enter Providence, but somehow slightly flawed. What seems to have escaped you is that Providence is a slaver controlled region, do you not regard slaves as those that "cannot protect themselves"? You fight to protect those stated above but find it morally correct to collaborate with a state that endoreses slavery? Somewhere along your path to rightousness or whatever you seek you lost your way... Take a look in the mirror and question your incentives, infact question your entire existence, you seem to be a living contradiction. My personal opinion (not that of my corporation) is that slavery is completely acceptable. Care much? Thanks for clearing that up, i'll have even more pleasure watching you fall at the hands of Si Chou Zhi Lu and U'K now. But that being your opinion, what is your corporations regard towards slavery?
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:32:00 - [114] Originally by: jtps Thanks for clearing that up, i'll have even more pleasure watching you fall at the hands of Si Chou Zhi Lu and U'K now. But that being your opinion, what is your corporations regard towards slavery? A) Are you officially stating Si Chou Zhi Lu will be engaging PAK vessels? If not please contact our corp diplomate immedietely. B) I am not aware we have an official stance. Some pirates are slavers, some are not. We shoot both. Prehaps you can ask GoGo when you are begging us to reset our standings towards you? PAK is recruiting!
jtps Minmatar Si chou zhi lu	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:43:00 - [115] Edited by: jtps on 08/01/2008 23:44:12 Originally by: Kehmor A) Are you officially stating Si Chou Zhi Lu will be engaging PAK vessels? If not please contact our corp diplomate immedietely. B) I am not aware we have an official stance. Some pirates are slavers, some are not. We shoot both. Prehaps you can ask GoGo when you are begging us to reset our standings towards you? I cannot speak on behalf of Si Chou Zhi Lu or our relasionship with PAK, but i can speak on behalf of our stance against slavery. Your words here have shown your support to slavery, slavers are targets, those who support slavers are targets, therefore you are a target.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:45:00 - [116] Originally by: jtps Edited by: jtps on 08/01/2008 23:44:12 Originally by: Kehmor A) Are you officially stating Si Chou Zhi Lu will be engaging PAK vessels? If not please contact our corp diplomate immedietely. B) I am not aware we have an official stance. Some pirates are slavers, some are not. We shoot both. Prehaps you can ask GoGo when you are begging us to reset our standings towards you? I cannot speak on behalf of Si Chou Zhi Lu or our relasionship with PAK, but i can speak on behalf of our stance against slavery. Your words here have shown your support to slavery, slavers are targets, those who support slavers are targets, therefore you are a target. standings will be changed accordingly, thank you for the heads up. PAK is recruiting!
GoGo Yubari PAK	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:50:00 - [117] Originally by: jtps But that being your opinion, what is your corporations regard towards slavery? We don't care what our members believe in as long as they are on board with what we do. We don't do politics, control space or set laws - nor do we want to. We're just a collection of misfits who've decided to focus our guns on pirates. I'm sure everyone in here has their own reasons for doing that and we seem to be attracting more of the kind. PAK is recruiting!
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:51:00 - [118] Well, considering you're asking CVA for permission before killing pirates like goonswarm, I can't really take you serious. Don't pretend to be the heroic anti-pirate force that you claim to be now, when you let others dictate for you who is a pirate and who isn't. Too much drama for a 19 man corp anyway.
jtps Minmatar Si chou zhi lu	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:55:00 - [119] Originally by: Kehmor standings will be changed accordingly, thank you for the heads up. I would expect nothing less. Now run along, i think i hear CVA calling you.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.01.09 00:09:00 - [120] Originally by: Kabajashi San So if you want to know if we pose a threat to you and your operations you should simply ask yourself if your are willing to step up to your words and end your support for the slavers. If not you will have to live with the risk of being held accountable. Step up to my words? As I said I used to respect but not support UK's actions. Now you have neither my respect nor support, though of course you do not desire or require my endorsement. Also as I have said I couldn't care less for your motives or ideals, I've seen Minmatar happier in the Empire than they are in the Republic and vice-versa it is not my place to claim to know what is right for an entire people either way. Much like almost every other person in empire space I will take the risk. It appears that you will have far too many targets to bother yourselves with myself or other such non-militant collaborators any time soon. Thankyou to all UK members who clarified your position and aided me in creation of my risk-assessment report. [And my, my can't a discussion move once certain "stars" of the community enter it.]

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