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The ULTIMATE Nerf

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Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:43:00 - [1] Is... A new shard. Yep you heard me... a new shard. At what point does this become a reality when we have people on the forums discussing, ***ing, complaining, ing & moaning and whatnot about the unplayability of the game in certain situations. Fleet battles and Jita come to mind here. I mean, it seems to be an accepted fact that if you *** enough on the forums about one perceived imbalance or another, it WILL BE NERFED. Personally I don't want EVE to be sharded. However, the code for EVE can only take us so far, regardless of how good it may get, when us players insist on trying to break it at every turn possible. What do you think? Could this nerf become a reality? _________ "Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told... I'm a daughter of the moon and a Goddess among men."
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:44:00 - [2] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Is... A new shard. Yep you heard me... a new shard. At what point does this become a reality when we have people on the forums discussing, ***ing, complaining, ing & moaning and whatnot about the unplayability of the game in certain situations. Fleet battles and Jita come to mind here. I mean, it seems to be an accepted fact that if you *** enough on the forums about one perceived imbalance or another, it WILL BE NERFED. Personally I don't want EVE to be sharded. However, the code for EVE can only take us so far, regardless of how good it may get, when us players insist on trying to break it at every turn possible. What do you think? Could this nerf become a reality? Honestly, I think they're either going to have to look at it or get a much more advanced cluster, because right now the cluster cannot hack dealing with fleet fights. - Recruitment open again-
Lord Matrix Department of War	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:49:00 - [3] It's nothing that dramatic. The current EVE Cluster code simply does not scale. Thats the only problem. Great parts of it will need to be rewritten in the near future. 3/4 pure lunatic, 1/4 absolute genius
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:49:00 - [4] I highly doubt it. They have said no to this many, many times and repeatedly stated it would never happen.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:53:00 - [5] Originally by: Lord Matrix It's nothing that dramatic. The current EVE Cluster code simply does not scale. Thats the only problem. Great parts of it will need to be rewritten in the near future. Can we be sure of that? They have done work on Jita making it better, even giving it its own node, and we still crap our virtual selves in there like lemmings to the slaughter, prompting Jita whine threads every weekend. It seems code and equipment can only take us so far before breaking again, and the cycle begins anew. _________ "Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told... I'm a daughter of the moon and a Goddess among men."
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:54:00 - [6] Originally by: MysticNZ I highly doubt it. They have said no to this many, many times and repeatedly stated it would never happen. And yet we have EVE-China... _________ "Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told... I'm a daughter of the moon and a Goddess among men."
Captain FletcherMiles	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:59:00 - [7] THEY ARE WORKING ON HAVING MULTIPLE NODES IN ONE SYSTEM. THE DAY EVE GETS 2 SERVERS IS THE DAY EVE DIES,
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:59:00 - [8] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Originally by: MysticNZ I highly doubt it. They have said no to this many, many times and repeatedly stated it would never happen. And yet we have EVE-China... With how many people on it? =] It's like SiSi. :P - Recruitment open again-
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Originally by: MysticNZ I highly doubt it. They have said no to this many, many times and repeatedly stated it would never happen. And yet we have EVE-China... But we have EVE china due to MMO rules and laws over in china not to reduce lag its there because it has to be there not because they couldn't handle the players, IF you had paid attention to fanfest you would know that they are going to be working on implementing a new server architecture in the not so distant future just get over it or GTFOOJ nuff said :) --------- Liberty Rogues Website
Naervic Gallente Brotherhood of the Shadows Momentum Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:04:00 - [10] Fleet battles and Jita will probably be a cyclical problem. As the amount of hardware and coding grows to support more players, a greater number of players will pour in. If 2000 people can fit into Jita, 2500 will come. If a thousand people can battle it out lag free, 1400 ships will come into system. And then there will be massive complaints on how horrible CCP is, how they're doing everything wrong, and that the end of Eve is nigh. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])

Lord Matrix Department of War	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Originally by: Lord Matrix It's nothing that dramatic. The current EVE Cluster code simply does not scale. Thats the only problem. Great parts of it will need to be rewritten in the near future. Can we be sure of that? They have done work on Jita making it better, even giving it its own node, and we still crap our virtual selves in there like lemmings to the slaughter, prompting Jita whine threads every weekend. It seems code and equipment can only take us so far before breaking again, and the cycle begins anew. Indeed, the current code can only take us as far as a single server node hardware can go. With the new cluster design, a single solarsystem will be load balanced between several such power nodes, effectively eliminating the lag that comes as a result of a highly loaded node. 3/4 pure lunatic, 1/4 absolute genius
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Captain FletcherMiles THEY ARE WORKING ON HAVING MULTIPLE NODES IN ONE SYSTEM. THE DAY EVE GETS 2 SERVERS IS THE DAY EVE DIES, Which does not negate the very real possibility that we, the players, will break that system too. If the system can handle 1k ships per side... bring 1.5k. You see where I'm going here? As I mentioned in another thread... Where do we, as the players, begin to police ourselves to prevent this from happening again? _________ "Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told... I'm a daughter of the moon and a Goddess among men."
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Naervic Fleet battles and Jita will probably be a cyclical problem. As the amount of hardware and coding grows to support more players, a greater number of players will pour in. If 2000 people can fit into Jita, 2500 will come. If a thousand people can battle it out lag free, 1400 ships will come into system. And then there will be massive complaints on how horrible CCP is, how they're doing everything wrong, and that the end of Eve is nigh. The problem is as cyclical as your rhetoric is. You could replace those numbers with 200/250/140 and claim the same thing if the code didn't support them now. The fact that EVE doesn't support the numbers it needs to is no proof in itself that it cannot be done. If you base your claims on the assumption that the code and hardware are the best possible, there's no need to argue at all. Just write "I am a believer!" or something. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Kurogauna	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:21:00 - [14] About lag in empire due to overpopulation, there is a solution. Taxes Ccp may add "local" taxes calculated from the number of players already in the system. Exemple, using a stargate to enter in a system with 10 people won't cost more than .. 10 isks. But jumping in the 600 players black hole should cost 100M. It os an offer/demand system. Players demand to go in jita and Ccp can't offer this to everyone... So TAXES TAXES TAXES CHA CHING ! You can put taxes on transactions, bounties, jumps, docking, undocking, connections ... Taxes on each message written on the local. Guess where I live =)
Naervic Gallente Brotherhood of the Shadows Momentum Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Naervic Fleet battles and Jita will probably be a cyclical problem. As the amount of hardware and coding grows to support more players, a greater number of players will pour in. If 2000 people can fit into Jita, 2500 will come. If a thousand people can battle it out lag free, 1400 ships will come into system. And then there will be massive complaints on how horrible CCP is, how they're doing everything wrong, and that the end of Eve is nigh. The problem is as cyclical as your rhetoric is. You could replace those numbers with 200/250/140 and claim the same thing if the code didn't support them now. The fact that EVE doesn't support the numbers it needs to is no proof in itself that it cannot be done. If you base your claims on the assumption that the code and hardware are the best possible, there's no need to argue at all. Just write "I am a believer!" or something. I apologize that you misconstrued my "rhetoric" for saying that it cannot be done. I was simply pointing out that this problem will continue for as long as Eve continues to grow. CCP should try and expand their hardware and streamline their code, and I am all for that. But as history has already pointed out to us all, that there is always a red line and that players will push the system beyond that very quickly. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
DeadRow Naqam	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:24:00 - [16] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Honestly, I think they're either going to have to look at it or get a much more advanced cluster, because right now the cluster cannot hack dealing with fleet fights. tbh fleets will always crash the server no matter how often CCP upgrades their servers. When hardware/code is brought in to help large fleets not work at 1 fpm the big alliances will just think they can bring in more people and thus the cycle continues.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:26:00 - [17] Originally by: Naervic CCP should try and expand their hardware and streamline their code, and I am all for that. But as history has already pointed out to us all, that there is always a red line and that players will push the system beyond that very quickly. This sounds like it's the players' fault and they're doing it on purpose too. It's not, EVE should be maintained with foresight, not hindsight. Trying to improve the code to support 500 people per system should be done before the players have been bringing that many for the past 2 years... Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:28:00 - [18] Im quite sure that Hellmar said at Fanfest, that they are looking into a true supercomputer architecture for eve. The one they work with right now, is made by themselfs, before super computers became normal. So its not scalable like the modern super computers. This signature is brought to you by EBankÖ, free space for moderators to brag.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:32:00 - [19] Originally by: Lazuran This sounds like it's the players' fault and they're doing it on purpose too. It's not, EVE should be maintained with foresight, not hindsight. Trying to improve the code to support 500 people per system should be done before the players have been bringing that many for the past 2 years... Hypothetical question... What would be your prediction for 2 years down the road, for the high end number of pilots in fleet battles? Assuming a steady growth in the EVE population. Can that prediction be reasonably made taking in variables of projected subscription numbers, and alliance population numbers? _________ "Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told... I'm a daughter of the moon and a Goddess among men."
Naervic Gallente Brotherhood of the Shadows Momentum Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:36:00 - [20] In most cases I don't blame the players, especially with fleet fights. Numbers are key, and I can see why the fight keeps escalating. Now when it comes to Jita, yeah I feel most are idiotic lemmings for going there, and I can only home one day Jita supernovas and all the billions of ISK goes poof. Foresight? perhaps. But two things must be looked at. #1. Money, two years ago did CCP have enough cash to buy the technology needed to support such an infrastructure? I doubt it, and even if they did, they don't know where EVE will be in two years, it could be long dead and gone by that time. Its a highly risky investment. And #2, does the technology exist beyond experimental laboratories, and is the price reasonable for the increase in speeds? I don't know the specifics of the Tranquility server, but I do know its pretty hardcore. How much better can they get with today's technology? Will it be alot more money for a minimal increase in speed. If so, it isn't worth it. We must remember that EVE is pioneering in the way they've run their MMO. Most MMO's have multiple servers which divide the population, the servers get to full? Just get another server. We'll have to wait and see what CCP comes up with to combat the lag monster here, and hope they come up with something pretty ingenious. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])

Dr Slaughter Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.06 20:46:00 - [21] Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 06/01/2008 20:49:45 Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Originally by: Lazuran This sounds like it's the players' fault and they're doing it on purpose too. It's not, EVE should be maintained with foresight, not hindsight. Trying to improve the code to support 500 people per system should be done before the players have been bringing that many for the past 2 years... Hypothetical question... What would be your prediction for 2 years down the road, for the high end number of pilots in fleet battles? Assuming a steady growth in the EVE population. Can that prediction be reasonably made taking in variables of projected subscription numbers, and alliance population numbers? 2 years down the road... 1. CCP will have re-written the SOL services code so that; a. Individual services such as stations, market, can run on seperate CPUs cores from grids, b. Grids can still only run on one CPU core at a time, c. CCP will have rolled out some 'super nodes' with infiniband or 10g connections to the blade server chassis. They will be used for dynamically shunting over taxed systems from blades onto slightly more powerful CPU and significantly higher IO bandwidth nodes. 2. Players will still try to bring 500vs500 and Grids (rather than entire nodes) will crash. 3. Jita will have a higher sales tax associated with sales there but you will be able to use INTERBUS to ship your goods, relatively safely, upto 5 jumps from where-ever you purchased them in HISEC only. 4. CCP will introduce in-character poker, and other games as part of ambulation. 5. Factional Warfare, POS, Corporate management, planetary flight, will either still not work right or will not be present, 6. The Jove will turn out to be dark elves who escaped from WoW and will come on raids into empire to wtfpwn Concord and any players they find.... Well.. perhaps not that last one. CCP this is not the nerf you are looking for...
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.01.06 21:01:00 - [22] Not quite what I asked... _________ "Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told... I'm a daughter of the moon and a Goddess among men."
Dr Slaughter Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.06 22:55:00 - [23] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Not quite what I asked... I don't do crystal ball reading very well I'm afraid. I leave that to Circe. < 700 on a grid without it risking lots of lag and a crash. Hows that? CCP this is not the nerf you are looking for...
Morn Judith Caldari Incognito Inc	Posted - 2008.01.06 23:21:00 - [24] I would leave the game the day that they do that. Single shard is one of the main reasons I love this game. Honestly, if you hate the lag so much, don't participate in the activities that create it. I don't like my sig.
XoPhyte Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.06 23:30:00 - [25] I don't see how sharding eve would fix fleet battle lag in a single system. There are a lot of problems with Eve core atm, blocking operations, no SMP support comes to mind. Sharding will fix neither of these.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2008.01.07 00:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Naervic Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Naervic Fleet battles and Jita will probably be a cyclical problem. As the amount of hardware and coding grows to support more players, a greater number of players will pour in. If 2000 people can fit into Jita, 2500 will come. If a thousand people can battle it out lag free, 1400 ships will come into system. And then there will be massive complaints on how horrible CCP is, how they're doing everything wrong, and that the end of Eve is nigh. The problem is as cyclical as your rhetoric is. You could replace those numbers with 200/250/140 and claim the same thing if the code didn't support them now. The fact that EVE doesn't support the numbers it needs to is no proof in itself that it cannot be done. If you base your claims on the assumption that the code and hardware are the best possible, there's no need to argue at all. Just write "I am a believer!" or something. I apologize that you misconstrued my "rhetoric" for saying that it cannot be done. I was simply pointing out that this problem will continue for as long as Eve continues to grow. CCP should try and expand their hardware and streamline their code, and I am all for that. But as history has already pointed out to us all, that there is always a red line and that players will push the system beyond that very quickly. How is your observation constructive at all? Where did this attitude of "because someone somewhere will complain, it's not worth doing" come from? Why feed hungry kids in Africa? You won't ever feed them all. Why have diplomats? Someone will always eventually find a way to start war. Why build new roads? The population will just increase and cause traffic on the new roads too. It's asinine to argue for no advancement on the basis that not everyone will think its enough. If they fix it so that double the numbers are allowed without lagging, then great, now the game is better and double the numbers can cram into a system before the game breaks. The fact that this new limit will be reached in certain circumstances is irrelevant. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Biolaja Tista Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.01.07 01:09:00 - [27] Why not go the way of Earth & Beyond, and have the different regions of New Eden separated into distinct, but still fully connected server clusters? It would be the same as things now with a single persistent world and all, but with more resources to adjucate to fleet battles.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.01.07 01:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Gorefacer Originally by: Naervic I apologize that you misconstrued my "rhetoric" for saying that it cannot be done. I was simply pointing out that this problem will continue for as long as Eve continues to grow. CCP should try and expand their hardware and streamline their code, and I am all for that. But as history has already pointed out to us all, that there is always a red line and that players will push the system beyond that very quickly. snipped the rant section It's asinine to argue for no advancement on the basis that not everyone will think its enough. If they fix it so that double the numbers are allowed without lagging, then great, now the game is better and double the numbers can cram into a system before the game breaks. The fact that this new limit will be reached in certain circumstances is irrelevant. I don't think he is arguing against the advancement. Where the problem comes in, is the continuing cycle... fix it - break it. Despite CCP's attempts at trying to discourage blob warfare, it has shown time and again, when it comes to Fleet warfare, that numbers wins the day. Yes, in most circumstances people will be happy with the new performance, that is, until they keep pushing those upper boundaries that have been set. Leaving us back where we started. _________ "Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told... I'm a daughter of the moon and a Goddess among men."
Gealbhan Caldari The SAS The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.07 01:45:00 - [29] I for one do not want to see eve "sharded". Yeah I've been on the bad end of fleet battles aka lagged out, frozen UI and the next thing you know you're in your pod without ever getting a chance to lock someone let alone fire. But still, I like the sandbox appeal of eve. "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
Im Dumb	Posted - 2008.01.07 02:30:00 - [30] shards or new supper computers and all that stuff, will never fix the problem. The problem is that 100 BS are better then 50 BS. If you split Eve into 2 shards you would still get alliances trying to pack 1000 people into a system. If you had new supper computers that could handle 2000 people in a system, we would try and pack 3000 in it. The only way to fix the problem is to make 50 BS better then 100 BS.



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