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Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.09 09:27:00 - [1] I have been wondering for a while about effectivity differences between various level 4 running platforms. 'Effectivity' for me means mission running speed plus to smaller extent cost effectivity of setup. While EFT no doubt gives some nice numbers to compare them on paper it does not translate directly into mission running speeds but gives rather rough idea what to expect. Second rather nice tool I found rather recently is EVE combat log analyzer Linkage. I think that with help of that tool it might be easier to figure out how well is that particular mission running platform doing by getting some numbres on issue rather than gut feelings and impressions. I'm myself usually flying pair of gank CNR's in mission so I start by providing numbers for that with relevant setups added (time is in minutes rounded up to half minute, it's duration of combat, add 3 - 4 minutes to get actual speed to travel/complete that mission and getting next one). Number in () is number of missions over what time is averaged. the score (2) * 13 infiltrated outpost 8 stop the thief 5 gone berzek (2) 9,5 the assault (5) 19 Recon 1 of 3 (4) 11 Recon 2 of 3 (4)* 3 Recon 3 of 3 (4)** 2 A case of kidnapping *** 27 right hand of zassamazz (2) 3,5 damsel in distress 9,5 attack of the drones (2) 6,5 massive attack (2) * 11,5 rogue drone harassment 7 pirate slaughter 21 cargo delivery *** 2 guristas extravaganza 30 worlds collide (serp-gur) 22,5 * Done in CNR #1 (solo) when cap injector is relplaced by LiF afterburner. Killed all in first stage and only battleships in second * Speed fitted rifter is used instead of CNR ** Speed fitted fleet stabber is used instead of CNR *** Done solo in CNR #1 CNR #1 (5% cruise missile damange and RoF hardwires, using CN ammo) Hi: 7x CN Cruise launcher 1x Auto Targeter I Med: CL-5 XL booster, 3x CN/T2 hardener, 1x PWNAGE painter 1x H cap injector II Low: 4x CN BCU 1x Signal Amp II Rigs/Drones: 3x Warhead Rigor Catalyst I 5x T2 light 5x T2 medium drones CNR #2 (5% cruise missile damage and RoF hardwires, using CN ammo) Hi: 7x T2 Cruise launcher 1x Auto Targeter I Med: T2 XL booster, 3x T2 hardener, 1x PWNAGE painter 1x H cap injector II Low: 4x CN BCU 1x Signal Amp II Rigs/Drones: 3x CCC I 5x T2 light 5x T2 medium drones I'm most interested in numbers for Nighthawk, Dominix, Golem, Drake and Abbadon (for EM weak missions), but ofc any other not as common mission running platforms would be interesting also to see. I have gut feeling that top platforms would be within 10 - 15 % of each other, but gut feeling is just that and numbers would be a lot better. It would be interesting also to see effectivity differences between permatanking and 'gank' setups.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.09 09:29:00 - [2] I'll add some other numbers I have seen from thread CNR vs Golem talk Originally by: Gul Rashen I made a couple of Missions in my CNR and in a Golem. Both with Omnipermatank and T1 Ammo. CNR wit 3 BCS, through the better Cap Recharge i was able to fit 4 BCS on the Golem. I took the Missiontime from the Warp to the first Stage to the Completing of the Missions(Killing all NPCs+Mission Objective). Gone Berserk-EOM CNR-15m Golem-15m Pirate Invasion-Sansha CNR-20m Golem-20m Pirate Slaughter-Gurista CNR-37m Golem-36m The Assault-Gurista CNR-42m Golem-41m Massive Attack-Sansha CNR-22m Golem-23m Smuggler Interception-Blood Raider CNR-22m Golem-21m Stop the Thief-Gurista/Mercenary CNR-7m Golem-7m Unauthorized Military Presence-Blood Raider CNR-11m Golem-10m The Guristas Spies-Guristas CNR-10m Golem-9m Recon 1-Guristas CNR-20m Golem-21m Recon 2-Mercenary CNR-10m Golem-11m The Rogue Slave Trader 1-Sansha CNR-6m Golem-5m Downing the Slavers 2-Sansha CNR-10m Golem-11m Silence the Informant-Drones/Mercenary CNR-23m Golem-23m I think there was 4 Reasons why the Golem was at fast as my CNR: 1. First Strike/Volley Damage The Golem made nearly 4800 Rawdamage with one Volley, my CNR only about 4100. 2. Higher Targeting Range 3. Higher Speed 4. Higher Tractorrange and Speed I also took down Rachen Mysuna with the Golem. I shot 47 Missiles at him and 5 of them were shot down by Defenders. Thats only about 10%, so it's true that Defenders are Chancebased and are no Problem for the Golem. and Originally by: Gul Rashen CNR: High 7x CN Cruise Missile Launcher, Small Tractor Beam Med Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster, CN Shield Boost Amplifier, 2x CN Invulnerability Field, CN EM Resistance Amplifier, CN Heat Resistance Amplifier Low 3x CN BCS, 2x Capacitor Flux Coil II Rig 1x CCC II, 2x CCC I Golem: High 4x CN Cruise Missile Launcher, Small Tractor Beam Med Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster, 2x CN Shield Boost Amplifier, 2x CN Invulnerability Field, Sensor Booster II, Cap Recharger II Low 4x CN BCS Rig 2x CCC II I used Vespa II Drones and T1-Cruise Missiles on both.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:05:00 - [3] Fleet stabber is shield extended. I think it was Hi: nothing Med: 10 MN afterburtner II 3x Large Shield extender Low: 3x Nano II 2x Overdrive II Or some mix of named and T2 modules to squeeze it all in. I assembled it from modules at hand after losing few caldary cruisers trying to make them go fast. Bellicose works also just as fine for that mission altho it will have less shields left at the end than comfortable (around 25% on bellicose vs 60% shield left on fleet stabber). And it's not about beating anyone speedwise, but to find out about different viable setups for doing missions with numbers attached to those setups. Just some general interest and who knows - perhaps there is something out there that is even more effective than stuff I have managed to fit together.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.09 12:56:00 - [4] Originally by: Arrs Grazznic I presume that your timings are for the combat phase only, i.e. from the first to last shot and do not include looting? Also, do you knock out any structures with these times? Just trying to get an idea about what you are timing so I can give some comparable figures for a Navy Mega / Domi combo. Cheers, Arrs Yes. Only combat phase, no looting. Not killing structures (but killing usually sentries that shoot me). EVE Combat Log 'duration' numbers are from first hit to last hit as far as I understand. Reason for that was, that looting is usually best done in separate ship with fit dedicated to fast loot/salvage and travel times are more or less same for all ships (with most of that time usually occupied by various 30 sec timers).
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:46:00 - [5] Did small sample of missions with CNR #1 solo. Times were Pirate slaughter (gurista) - 29 min Attack of the Drones - 6 min The Score (sansha) - 13 min Recon 1 of 3 - 9 min Just to provide some numbers to compare to to solo pilots.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.09 20:59:00 - [6] It's not about only dual account missionrunning times, I'm quite interested in solo times also as it still gives quite reasonable idea about mission running platform effectivity. All that second account in mission does is making it approx 1/3 faster. As far as ranting goes, it's clearly stated before those times that it's dual account times so it's should not cause unneccesary flames. Yeh. Tiller's thread was quite impressive. Thanx to that I switched to torps back when their range was still adequate for lev 4 missions. Unfortunately so mutch has changed in game since that thread started that it seemed not quite proper to necro it with some new times. Hopefully he will get back to game soon with new energy.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.10 06:43:00 - [7] 2x CNR (second CNR setup has changed and it now has also 7x CN launchers instead of T2) Pirate invasion (sansha) - 10 min Vegenance (gurista) - 13 min Gurista spies - 6 min Pirate Slaughter (gurista) - 19 min
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:36:00 - [8] Edited by: Carniflex on 10/01/2008 16:42:08 It,s one side for WC clearing 3 stages. Killing all hostiles, but not the station. Second stage is serpentis one as it's easier. There is too many HAC's in gurista one and I'm not very fond of being jammed most of the time. Note the signal amps in those setups - they allow approx 110 km locking range so while some time in first stage is used up just slowboating towards the gate it's not too bad. I do have small pile of hacker cards also stockpiled somewhere, but 3 stages from WC give slightly under 30 mil in bounties so it's more rewarding to kill em all. edit: As far as i understand log analyzer counts combat duration from first hit to last hit by just substituting from last timestamp the first one, so if you would shoot something, or be shot at, travel for 5 minutes warping around and doing all kind of stuff, but not doing session change(thru stargate or doking) and then go back and kill the shooter your combat time would include that 5 minutes spent traveling. That is assuming that I understand it correct. I sometimes get silly results using 2 chars (like duration of minus 10 seconds etc) but I have always used longer time from two available logs or when in doubt then double cheking log manually and finding actual duration that way.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.11 09:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Qui Shon Carniflex, your solo Recon 1/3 is 2minutes faster then your dual account time. How come? Being able to pay more attention I quess. Running 2 accounts has it's disadvantages also as you need to divide your attention between 2 chars. When running solo you can do less overkills (dividing the fire of your launchers so that you kill your targets exactly, instead of full or half salvos I usually use when dual account running). 2x CNR - Gurista Extravaganza - 30,5 min (killing all in first 5 stages, not battlestation) 2x CNR - Infiltrated Outpost - 9,5 min 2x CNR - Vegenance (gurista) - 12,5 min 2x CNR - Pirate Invasion (sansha) - 10,5 min Some latest times for me (as second CNR has now also CN launchers instead of T2) - no significant time differences. Quess I just had to do it to feel better about not using them.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.12 19:21:00 - [10] 2x CNR - A case of kidnapping (storyline) - 19 min Solo time was 27 min for same mission with 1x CNR. I managed to get my claws also on domination 100 mn afterburner so we will see how it affects solo times on massive attack and the score missions with relatively few targets and long travel distances (when I will get those missions again).
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:01:00 - [11] CNR (domi afterburner) - Massive Attack (snasha) - 11 min CNR (domi afterburner) - The Score (sansha) - 9 min It is slightly faster, as expected compared to CNR with LiF afterburner. Reasonable investment, as domi afterburner was quite reasonably priced. However gain is not that big to make usage of cheaper LiF (or T2) afterburner unreasonable.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:48:00 - [12] Originally by: Leandro Salazar I wish you would time your missions in a different way. Timing from first rat hit to last rat popped skews the results in favor of short ranged weaps and slow lockers (and also slightly in favor of missiles). Best thing to do would probably be to time between leaving warp and entering warp with a stop watch which every cell phone nowadays probably has. Combat log does not count only your hits but also hits done on you from hostiles also. At least thats how I understand it. So 'combat' for short range slow locking ship would then start not from the first hit it does on NPC, but from first NPC hit on that ship. Combat duration is time from first hit to last hit between session changes (doking/jumping thru stargate). It seems pretty logical that combat starts when either you shoot somebody or somebody shoots you until you stop shooting and are not taking anymore incoming damage. Main reason why I opted for combat log analyzer was however ease of use for me. I just need to note down mission names as I get them and do not need to keep separate track of entry and exit times being able to use combat logs later for that. Running 2 accounts in mission in any semiefficent way takes usually my full attention so I forget all too often to take notes (often having to note down last few mission names from memory as i have forgot to note em down as I got em).
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.16 12:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Tranka Verrane I would agree two ships is unrealistic for most ppl. There are only two ships in my missions when there is another player along, I only run one account. It's true that for 'casual' missionrunning 2 accounts is not quite reasonable. However if you do missionrunning as your main source of income (ie. run them enough hours per month) it is cost effective to run second account by buying GTC's for it. Only account I'm paying for with real money is my 'main' account for example, all other accounts are running with GTC's. Reasoning is quite simple. If approx 1/3rd faster missions yield you more isk per month (or per 3 months) than the cost of GTC then it's reasonable to run second account as 'wingman' for missions with GTC's. As an bonus you get second account for 'free' as long as you run missions enough hours per month so that benefits granted by that wingman cover it's running costs. If you do the math then actual amount of missionrunninng hours per month is not very insane for that. As rough rule of thumb if you earn approx 500 mil isk per month from missionrunning (or more) it's cost effective to run second account from GTC's. Altho there is approx 1 month 'startup' period for that alt before his presence in mission starts to add some benefits you can actually see and stops being liability. For average level 4 mission runner this equals roughly to 20 hours of missionrunning per month (ie. 5 hours per week).

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