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Law Enforcer	Posted - 2008.01.11 01:24:00 - [1] Edited by: Law Enforcer on 11/01/2008 01:26:33 I understand that the amarr issue is being beaten to death but since the devs tend to still think theres nothing wrong with amarr, heres another example. maybe I'm just another 68mil sp noob but I think the paladin is another example of a horrid amarr ship. [Golem, pve] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Power Diagnostic System II X-Large Shield Booster II Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field Caldari Navy Ballistic Deflection Field Caldari Navy Ballistic Deflection Field Large Capacitor Battery II Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Capacitor Control Circuit II Capacitor Control Circuit II tanked gurista dps: 1366... dps: 563 I'd say it's a pretty good setup that'll breaze through any level 4. this setup is kind of costly because of the tech 2 CCC's but it would still be very viable just using t1 CCC's. [Paladin, pve] Dark Blood Large Armor Repairer Amarr Navy Armor Thermic Hardener Amarr Navy Armor Thermic Hardener Amarr Navy Armor Kinetic Hardener Amarr Navy Armor Kinetic Hardener Dark Blood Heat Sink Dark Blood Heat Sink Domination Stasis Webifier Gallente Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Gallente Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Dark Blood Cap Recharger Dark Blood Tachyon Beam Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency L Dark Blood Tachyon Beam Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency L Dark Blood Tachyon Beam Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency L Dark Blood Tachyon Beam Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Capacitor Control Circuit II Capacitor Control Circuit II tanked gurista dps: 452 dps: 794 the good: it has enough tracking to one volley frigates before they get into orbiting range and even if they do; you just web them and even way under your optimal if you have good tracking skills you'll still wtfpwnbbq them. (tested on sisi). it can also be quicker then the golem on certain level 4's because of the ability to alpha most targets before they even get into orbiting range. the bad: so it's got pretty good dps and you can alpha just about anything cruiser and under so it's a win right? wrong. the tank sucks and you "cannot" dual rep a paladin without gimping it's dps beyond belief because of the lack of powergrid. but what if you could dual rep it? you'd cap out faster then you could mash the warp button. but you ish just another guy obsessed with tachyons! you could just use mega beams and stuffs! no, in quite a few missions battleships orbit 55km away. it's more fun watching paint dry then trying to break the tank on a bs that far away with just mega beam. so how do you fix it? increase the powergrid, allowing you to dual rep it and give it another low OR mid for another cap mod. or: increase the armor repair bonus and give it another mid or low.
Lt Angus Caldari the united	Posted - 2008.01.11 01:36:00 - [2] Edited by: Lt Angus on 11/01/2008 01:45:16 an interesting setup to say the least try mega pulse with scorch, similar range better tracking, simlar dps grid for a 1000+ dps tank Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
bladewell	Posted - 2008.01.11 02:02:00 - [3] [url=http://kb.styx-alliance.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=40783] [/url]
Clavius XIV Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.11 02:10:00 - [4] There is nothing wrong with the Paladin as a mission ship. It's just not ideal vs guristas and angels. It is also an actual upgrade to the Abaddon, givining Amarr mission runners something to actually look forward to, as the Navy Apoc is pretty much useless. Also Palidin is flown more like the Abaddon in mission mode, set up for max gank and kill stuff before it breaks your tank. More dps but less tank than Golem. Seems balanced to me.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.11 02:41:00 - [5] Consider a DPS tank: Paladin 4x Tach II (Or faction) SS TC, Domi Web, 2x Cap Recharger II Amarr Navy LAR, 3x Hardener II's, 3x Amarr Navy HS 2x CCC II It tanks way around about as well as a vanilla T2 Raven and deals about twice as much DPS. I'd say it's a close tie between the CNR/Golem and the Paladin as the best mission running ship in the game - though I do agree that the CNR/Golem is (very slightly) better. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Mc Fraser Cross Roads	Posted - 2008.01.11 09:41:00 - [6] Edited by: Mc Fraser on 11/01/2008 09:41:24 Originally by: Liang Nuren Consider a DPS tank: Paladin 4x Tach II (Or faction) SS TC, Domi Web, 2x Cap Recharger II Amarr Navy LAR, 3x Hardener II's, 3x Amarr Navy HS 2x CCC II It tanks way around about as well as a vanilla T2 Raven and deals about twice as much DPS. I'd say it's a close tie between the CNR/Golem and the Paladin as the best mission running ship in the game - though I do agree that the CNR/Golem is (very slightly) better. -Liang i use that setup but i have removed the web as nothing was lasting long enough to get into web range. to the OP now set up the ships to tank sansha's instead of guristas. and change the paladin's guns to tachyon ll
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.11 10:08:00 - [7] There are only a few missions requiring dual reps if you hate warping out, just switch to megapulses for those. But I would say yes golem is better then the paladin, but quite frankly I would rate the paladin as the second best marauder. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Jim Steele Dead By Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.11 10:29:00 - [8] Edited by: Jim Steele on 11/01/2008 10:30:40 If you want to use Tachs your better getting a Nightmare since it gets tracking bonuses and can shield tank which is more efficient than Armour tanking. Plus its a lot easier to fit since PDU IIs give more grid. Try a Golem with Torps. vs a Paladin with MP II A Paladin with MPII cant get close imho to the same damage or tank. Lasers and Armour reps need some love. Author of "The Apoc Guide"
achoura	Posted - 2008.01.11 10:31:00 - [9] Ditto, It's deffinatly good at what it does, in fact its the only tii bs i'll take to a pos bash but that's off topic. However there is also a large number of ppl who don't loot as they go, despite this being the primary intent of the ship and given the module sizes it's hardly surprising, but assuming you arn't looting then there isn't any reason not to spend an additional month skilling (assuming you don't have them) the skills for a nightmare, which has equal damage without sacrificing any tank. If the Marauders had an extra salvager slot and modules were sized better this may not be the case of course, or the ship had an additional low. I'd also like to add that you used no implants in your numbers, i remedied my nightmares cap problems with afew 5% ones, it would easily be possible for the paladin to up its tank in such a way too even if you did have to tweak it's fitting. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Jim Steele Edited by: Jim Steele on 11/01/2008 10:30:40 If you want to use Tachs your better getting a Nightmare since it gets tracking bonuses and can shield tank which is more efficient than Armour tanking. Plus its a lot easier to fit since PDU IIs give more grid. . The nightmare only works well as a lasership because of CCP forgetting to nerf grid after giving it double laser bonus. Otherwise it would waste its lows on fitting mods insted dof damage mods. Currently, nightmare outclasses paladin due to its nature, but to be perfectly honest the whole concept of tanking is broken in eve. Some ships have tanking slots in the same row as damage slots. Some races have tanking slots in the same row as EW slots. So if you are PvE and thus not needing EW, just use a race that has tanking slots in ew slos, thus allowing you to use damage slots. It is this very broken concept that is the main issue all along. Most space game have tanking as a set part of modifible ship layout. This prevents stuff like 3 bcu permatank ravens, which, lets be honest, outclass any turret pve'er simply because of the original concept of slot layout not being relevant anymore. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:25:00 - [11] i still prefer tachs :) 900 dps is just too uber to give away to lower dps setups :D (ok mybe pulse can out dps but i have nice range :D) ---------------------------------- Seems that there's a new game that seems to be very popular whit whiners these days. Its called EFT Online. dont listen those people.. as they dont have a clue
Mc Fraser Cross Roads	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Riho i still prefer tachs :) 900 dps is just too uber to give away to lower dps setups :D (ok mybe pulse can out dps but i have nice range :D) you using a domi web or a tracking mod?? i only change out to mega pulse for damsel as everything is very short range.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Jonny JoJo The nightmare only works well as a lasership because of CCP forgetting to nerf grid after giving it double laser bonus. Otherwise it would waste its lows on fitting mods insted dof damage mods. Currently, nightmare outclasses paladin due to its nature, but to be perfectly honest the whole concept of tanking is broken in eve. Some ships have tanking slots in the same row as damage slots. Some races have tanking slots in the same row as EW slots. So if you are PvE and thus not needing EW, just use a race that has tanking slots in ew slos, thus allowing you to use damage slots. It is this very broken concept that is the main issue all along. Most space game have tanking as a set part of modifible ship layout. This prevents stuff like 3 bcu permatank ravens, which, lets be honest, outclass any turret pve'er simply because of the original concept of slot layout not being relevant anymore. Most armor tankers can fit 3 damage mods, the main reason the raven is omgwtfpwn for PvE is because missiles never mis. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Jim Steele Dead By Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Shevar Most armor tankers can fit 3 damage mods, the main reason the raven is omgwtfpwn for PvE is because missiles never mis. Armour Tankers cant fit 3 damage mods, a full rack of the longest range guns AND permatank its just not possible. I dont think its possible even with short range guns. Author of "The Apoc Guide"
Mc Fraser Cross Roads	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:36:00 - [15] Edited by: Mc Fraser on 11/01/2008 12:39:37 Originally by: Jim Steele Originally by: Shevar Most armor tankers can fit 3 damage mods, the main reason the raven is omgwtfpwn for PvE is because missiles never mis. Armour Tankers cant fit 3 damage mods, a full rack of the longest range guns AND permatank its just not possible. I dont think its possible even with short range guns. paldin 4x amarr navy tachyon beam 3x cap recharger 1x tracking comp 1x amarr navy LAR 1x Em hardener 2x thermal hardener 3x heat sink 2x rep amount rigs that setup runs for over 10 mins with amarr navy standard and 5 mins with amarr navy multifreq.
Law Enforcer	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Mc Fraser Edited by: Mc Fraser on 11/01/2008 12:39:37 Originally by: Jim Steele Originally by: Shevar Most armor tankers can fit 3 damage mods, the main reason the raven is omgwtfpwn for PvE is because missiles never mis. Armour Tankers cant fit 3 damage mods, a full rack of the longest range guns AND permatank its just not possible. I dont think its possible even with short range guns. paldin 4x amarr navy tachyon beam 3x cap recharger 1x tracking comp 1x amarr navy LAR 1x Em hardener 2x thermal hardener 3x heat sink 2x rep amount rigs that setup runs for over 10 mins with amarr navy standard and 5 mins with amarr navy multifreq. try going up against anything other then sansha/bloodraiders and you'll lose that third damage mod for another hardner.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:42:00 - [17] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 11/01/2008 12:42:41 Originally by: Law Enforcer Originally by: Mc Fraser Edited by: Mc Fraser on 11/01/2008 12:39:37 Originally by: Jim Steele Originally by: Shevar Most armor tankers can fit 3 damage mods, the main reason the raven is omgwtfpwn for PvE is because missiles never mis. Armour Tankers cant fit 3 damage mods, a full rack of the longest range guns AND permatank its just not possible. I dont think its possible even with short range guns. paldin 4x amarr navy tachyon beam 3x cap recharger 1x tracking comp 1x amarr navy LAR 1x Em hardener 2x thermal hardener 3x heat sink 2x rep amount rigs that setup runs for over 10 mins with amarr navy standard and 5 mins with amarr navy multifreq. try going up against anything other then sansha/bloodraiders and you'll lose that third damage mod for another hardner. He will alos lose the third damage mod as well as upto 70-80% of his dps depending on PvE enemy. As he has no propulsion mod, he can fit this, but if he wants pvp then he has some big fitting problems Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:45:00 - [18] Why tank a ship that you can put enough DPS onto to clear rats before they shoot you much? --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Mc Fraser Cross Roads	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:46:00 - [19] that is a sansha/blood pve fitting does it look like a pvp fitting my pvp fitting is 4x mega pulse ll 3x 50w neuts 2x heavy cap booster ll web conjuctive Radar ECCM 2x amarr navy LAR 1x RCU ll 2x amarr navy EANM 1x Suitcase ll 1x heat sink ll 2x ogre ll 2x valk ll 1x warrior ll oh and 2x rep amount rigs
Law Enforcer	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Shevar There are only a few missions requiring dual reps if you hate warping out, just switch to megapulses for those. But I would say yes golem is better then the paladin, but quite frankly I would rate the paladin as the second best marauder. if you have to warp out in a t2 battleship for a mission then I wouldn't consider it the "second best". I'm not saying make the paladin uber but at least buff it's tanking bonus a little so you don't have to warp out. a golem can tank an entire room, no problem so all you have to do is mash "f1/f4" and walk away. another thing everyone is forgetting here. you're all saying the paladin has uberomgwtfbbq damage but in reality when you're fighting ANYTHING other then sansha/blood raider you're going to be doing around the same dps as a golem if not a little less because of the insane EM/thermal resists. use a amarr agent you say? sure, they still give gurista missions.
Law Enforcer	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:49:00 - [21] Originally by: Arana Tellen Why tank a ship that you can put enough DPS onto to clear rats before they shoot you much? ever warped into the third stage of worlds collide and had the entire room of serpentise aggro you? a paladin wouldn't survive that.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Law Enforcer [the good: it has enough tracking to one volley frigates before they get into orbiting range and even if they do; you just web them and even way under your optimal if you have good tracking skills you'll still wtfpwnbbq them. (tested on sisi). You sound like you believe optimal works both ways. Your tanking number for hte paladin also seem lower that what I'd get. You're sure you didn't make a mistake? Even at 450 dps it is a fairly good tank, and enough to take on any spawn without needing to warp out.. Quote: it can also be quicker then the golem on certain level 4's because of the ability to alpha most targets before they even get into orbiting range. the bad: so it's got pretty good dps and you can alpha just about anything cruiser and under so it's a win right? wrong. the tank sucks and you "cannot" dual rep a paladin without gimping it's dps beyond belief because of the lack of powergrid. but what if you could dual rep it? you'd cap out faster then you could mash the warp button. but you ish just another guy obsessed with tachyons! you could just use mega beams and stuffs! no, in quite a few missions battleships orbit 55km away. it's more fun watching paint dry then trying to break the tank on a bs that far away with just mega beam. so how do you fix it? increase the powergrid, allowing you to dual rep it and give it another low OR mid for another cap mod. or: increase the armor repair bonus and give it another mid or low. Use beams and ultraviolets, and those ships 50km away will die just fine. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Law Enforcer Originally by: Arana Tellen Why tank a ship that you can put enough DPS onto to clear rats before they shoot you much? ever warped into the third stage of worlds collide and had the entire room of serpentise aggro you? a paladin wouldn't survive that. Then switch to MP's with a dual rep setup for that mission? There are like 2 or 3 missions where a single rep setup that runs out of cap after 3 minutes while using every module can't tank properly. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Mc Fraser Cross Roads	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:13:00 - [24] if you have to fit duel rep and mega pulse fit a large cap booster and fill hold with 800 charges you can then rep and shoot for a very long time
Law Enforcer	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:15:00 - [25] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Law Enforcer [the good: it has enough tracking to one volley frigates before they get into orbiting range and even if they do; you just web them and even way under your optimal if you have good tracking skills you'll still wtfpwnbbq them. (tested on sisi). You sound like you believe optimal works both ways. Your tanking number for hte paladin also seem lower that what I'd get. You're sure you didn't make a mistake? Even at 450 dps it is a fairly good tank, and enough to take on any spawn without needing to warp out.. Quote: it can also be quicker then the golem on certain level 4's because of the ability to alpha most targets before they even get into orbiting range. the bad: so it's got pretty good dps and you can alpha just about anything cruiser and under so it's a win right? wrong. the tank sucks and you "cannot" dual rep a paladin without gimping it's dps beyond belief because of the lack of powergrid. but what if you could dual rep it? you'd cap out faster then you could mash the warp button. but you ish just another guy obsessed with tachyons! you could just use mega beams and stuffs! no, in quite a few missions battleships orbit 55km away. it's more fun watching paint dry then trying to break the tank on a bs that far away with just mega beam. so how do you fix it? increase the powergrid, allowing you to dual rep it and give it another low OR mid for another cap mod. or: increase the armor repair bonus and give it another mid or low. Use beams and ultraviolets, and those ships 50km away will die just fine. mega beam II's do 485dps using ultraviolent crystals so about 400/390dps againts gurista? watching paint dry is more exciting. a raven would have trouble getting away with that kind of dps and that's firing at an unresisted damage type. and yes, the closer a target is to your ship, the higher it's transversal when it's orbiting you. so the further "under" optimal the harder it's going to be to hit. perhaps I misused the word "optimal". so what happens when you have to tank multible damage types? mercanaries perhaps. your tanked dps would be far under 450. I wouldn't risk a one billion isk ship if it's going to be that fragile.
Law Enforcer	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Mc Fraser if you have to fit duel rep and mega pulse fit a large cap booster and fill hold with 800 charges you can then rep and shoot for a very long time since when do you cap boost a mission ship? cap boosters are hard to transport and they're expensive. when it comes to isk/hour, refitting your entire ship and running cap boosters is a waste. fixing the broken ship would be a better method then finding one hundread and one ways to band aid it.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:26:00 - [27] Originally by: Law Enforcer Originally by: Mc Fraser if you have to fit duel rep and mega pulse fit a large cap booster and fill hold with 800 charges you can then rep and shoot for a very long time since when do you cap boost a mission ship? cap boosters are hard to transport and they're expensive. when it comes to isk/hour, refitting your entire ship and running cap boosters is a waste. fixing the broken ship would be a better method then finding one hundread and one ways to band aid it. You're talking about isk/hour but don't take into account the far better cost efficiency of faction crystals over faction missiles? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Law Enforcer	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Law Enforcer Originally by: Mc Fraser if you have to fit duel rep and mega pulse fit a large cap booster and fill hold with 800 charges you can then rep and shoot for a very long time since when do you cap boost a mission ship? cap boosters are hard to transport and they're expensive. when it comes to isk/hour, refitting your entire ship and running cap boosters is a waste. fixing the broken ship would be a better method then finding one hundread and one ways to band aid it. You're talking about isk/hour but don't take into account the far better cost efficiency of faction crystals over faction missiles? k, since we're not going to derail this thread. lets just say they're both using t1 crystals/missles.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:31:00 - [29] To conclude this thread, the paladin is the most efficient turret based marauder. That missiles are really effin good for PvE isn't something new. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
DJ P	Posted - 2008.01.11 14:22:00 - [30] I cannot understand the complains about the lasers. Fit target painters and your problems are solved.

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