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Xavior Mousepractice	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:47:00 - [1] Hi there. A few quick questions about suicide ganking in hi-sec and how to protect against it. For the record - this isn't a whine. I haven't been suicide ganked and have no particular views on whether it should be allowed or not. I fly Amarr (I know, I know ) and so armor tank. I mission run in a bs and have reasonable skills - Amarr bs lvl 5 and all tanking / capacitor / grid / cpu skills to lvl 4 or 5 (mostly 5). This gives me base armor of around 19k with a cap of over 10k. From reading other posts, I understand that you paint a big target on yourself if you start to use top end faction kit. I'm not in that league yet but my mission running ship is around the 1.5 billion mark so am getting a bit concerned as I am still adding shiney bits to it From what I have read, a typical suicide gank tactic would be to neut the cap of their victim as quickly as possible to kill active modules (armor rep / armor hardener / damage control) leaving gank ships to deal with victims base resists = quick kill. Questions 1. Heavy T2 energy neut drains 600 cap every 24 seconds. With cap of 10k plus it seems like it would take around 16 hits to kill my cap which looks like 2 bs's each with 8 heavys. Am I reading this right? 2. If I were to use a heavy injector with 800's, would it be possible (with careful timing) to inject cap and immediately re-start hardeners before neut cycle killed cap again? These take around 40 enery to power up and would then last for 20 seconds. 3. If Q2 is possible, then I believe it should be possible to keep hardeners going even if armor repper is un-useable. That would leave gank team to kill around 19k armor with resists across the board of around 75 to 80% before Concord spoils their fun. If my sums are right, that looks like around 76k raw damage required. Can anyone tell me if my sums stack up, and if that would be achievable for a realistic gank team before being concorded? Cheers. P.S. - In advance, please don't respond with "don't fly what you can't afford to loose". I could afford to loose this but would really rather not, so want to understand the risks and develop an appropriate strategy.
LukeIamYourMother Hedion University	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:50:00 - [2] With that title I would've assumed either a whine, or anti-whine, or whatever.. first reasonable OP I seen on the subject. Here, have a cookie.
Xavior Mousepractice	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:54:00 - [3] Cookie
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:56:00 - [4] I'm wondering a similar thing, what sort of DPS a heavy suicide squad could put out before Concord get to them.
Malcanis 5 finger discounteers	Posted - 2008.01.11 09:23:00 - [5] If enough people want you dead, then there's not much you can do about it. It might be an idea to include some passive resists in your setup. Damage Controls are good for this also, and they have a long cycle time (even if they neut you, the DCU stays active for 30 seconds) Do you use an alt with leadership skills? Even a moderately skilled gang booster can add a surprising amount of extra hp, and those hp won't be shown by a scanner. An armour mindlink-skilled alt in a battlecruiser would add nearly 3000 base hp, with 22.5% (stacked) resists - enough to significantly alter the calculations. (You can also send the alt ahead to keep an eye out for suspciously large concentrations of battleships hanging around at gates...) At the end of the day, you're aware of the problem and you're thinking about it. Which is probably the most important part of the defence. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Xavior Mousepractice	Posted - 2008.01.11 09:30:00 - [6] Thanks Malcanis. Completely understand that if enough people want me dead then it's going to happen. I am trying to get a feel for the balance of whether I would be an attractive target for a suicide gank team scanning out mission runners with an aim to profit from dropped modules.
SexehGallente Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.01.11 09:38:00 - [7] Edited by: SexehGallente on 11/01/2008 09:39:27 A fitted out suicide gank dominix costs less then 30m after insurance. About 15 of these can take out a freighter that has 100k+ effective hitpoints. Not much you can do if they decide your ship is pretty enough. Go on youtube and watch a few suicide gank videos if you like, I'm too lazy to search and link one. What you could do is carry tons of seperate bookmarks in your hold, and if the gankers are smart they know the chances are slim they'll get some of the good loot.
Vikarion Caldari United Heavens	Posted - 2008.01.11 10:16:00 - [8] Edited by: Vikarion on 11/01/2008 10:16:25 Originally by: SexehGallente What you could do is carry tons of seperate bookmarks in your hold, and if the gankers are smart they know the chances are slim they'll get some of the good loot. Don't do this. It's an exploit. And it's pretty obvious. Instead, load up a bunch of small t1 stuff: ammo, hardeners, etc. That will make you look like someone not worth ganking. Hide the real stuff in all the crap. I use CrumpleCorn(tm) Sigs, because they (and he) are awesome!
Malcanis 5 finger discounteers	Posted - 2008.01.11 10:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Xavior Mousepractice Thanks Malcanis. Completely understand that if enough people want me dead then it's going to happen. I am trying to get a feel for the balance of whether I would be an attractive target for a suicide gank team scanning out mission runners with an aim to profit from dropped modules. Yeah basically all you can really do directly is raise the value of "enough". If you have 1,5 billion worth of fittings, you're probably approaching the point where it's possibly worthwhile to gank you. As you say, a couple of neutrascorps combined with a domi ganksquad could probably take you down. Be paranoid, change your patterns occasionally, vary your fittings, keep a spare ship with just ordinary T2 fittings to do those missions which just don't need a faction-fit faction BS (eg: Duo of Death, part 1 of Slavers, etc) to reduce your exposure. If a lot of black skulls start appearing in local, check them out. Basically, make potential gankers have to work harder for their payoff. It's not as easy to assemble numbers of skilled BS pilots to wait for long periods of time for an uncertain reward as some people would have you think; if if you can make them wait longer and need a few more pilots for a less certain payoff, then your risk reduces exponentially. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Xavior Mousepractice	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:49:00 - [10] Thanks for the advice
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.11 14:27:00 - [11] It would indeed be nice to have some form of damage calculator that can be used to predict how many ships of a certain type (given best value for money fittings) it would take to gank a specific type of fitting in a given security rating system. That way you can calculate the cost to gank you and thereby take measures to make sure your cargo doesn't exceed this amount (this still gives a margin as generally only a fraction of your cargo survives. Good pirates take that in account in their calculations). Or just use a blockade runner and never given them a chance to peek in your cargo hold
Ursula LeGuinn Versus Gloria Omnis	Posted - 2008.01.11 14:32:00 - [12] Originally by: SexehGallente What you could do is carry tons of seperate bookmarks in your hold, and if the gankers are smart they know the chances are slim they'll get some of the good loot. How do you put bookmarks in your cargo hold? Drag and drop them from the bookmark window...?
Frau Igogo	Posted - 2008.01.11 15:18:00 - [13] Originally by: Ursula LeGuinn Originally by: SexehGallente What you could do is carry tons of seperate bookmarks in your hold, and if the gankers are smart they know the chances are slim they'll get some of the good loot. How do you put bookmarks in your cargo hold? Drag and drop them from the bookmark window...? Yes. And you can give such bookmark to other players or contract it. On example, if you want somebody else to salvage your mission wrecks without making gang with you.
Xavior Mousepractice	Posted - 2008.01.11 15:51:00 - [14] Thanks for all the feedback but it has gone slightly off course.... OP was to try to work out whether my bs would be an attractive target for suicide gangs while I was mission running so we are only talking about installed mods, not cargo contents. I was trying to understand what sort of firepower (cost of fleet) would be needed to kill me before concorde arrived. Please see op for specifics.
Ven Li Heracles.	Posted - 2008.01.11 16:06:00 - [15] Edited by: Ven Li on 11/01/2008 16:06:41 it usually takes about 5 ships to destroy a ship in mission, so if your flying a BS 5 enemy BS's would be needed. Or more if they use lower class ships. It seems that gankers usually only do it if there is profit in it so in a BS i doubt you'd be a target as the potential profit would be to low
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.01.11 16:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Xavior Mousepractice I was trying to understand what sort of firepower (cost of fleet) would be needed to kill me before concorde arrived. Please see op for specifics. As was already noted in the thread around 15 Domis can zap a freighter with well over 100K effective hitpoints in less than 30 seconds. All costs considered and with their insurance payout coming back to them each Domi costs less than 30 mil. So around 450 mil for 15 Domis to zap a freighter. If the freighter has 1 billion in cargo they can expect a 500 million payday so they come out ahead (albeit 50 mil divided 15 ways is probably not quite worth the effort). Without knowing your exact setup I am willing to bet that same gank squad could down your battleship with ease (probably with fewer Domis than 15 actually). With 1.5 bil in fittings you are probably worth the effort (depends on the mods and how much is wrapped up in each...a single 500 mil mod going pop will mess their profit margin). Little of your setup is helpful to you except resists and plates in this case (anything that gives you raw HP). Your reppers will barely get off 1, maybe 2, cycles which is pathetic in the face of the DPS they will be dishing out. In short you will die fast and get to watch them haul your stuff from your pod and there is jack-all you can do about it really aside from not using expensive mods (or missioning in 1.0 - 0.8 systems where CONCORD presumably shows up faster).
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.11 18:35:00 - [17] Edited by: Qui Shon on 11/01/2008 18:39:46 Q2: Yes. Q3: You need to look at your weakest resist, especially if it's thermal or EM, and calculate from that. If I were to hit you, I'd obviously know your fit, try to get my damage types suitable, and I'd wait a few missions if I had to, until your mods suited me. Which they will given a suitable mission, unless you always omnitank. 30mil? Pfft, more like 0-10mil for a pure T1 fit Domi. In fact I just did a quick recalc purely using market prices, i.e. not manufacturing some of the stuff myself, mainly the ship, which would save me a few mil, and which I would do if I made a business out of this. It comes out to ~13mil cost, including too much CN ammo, including the ridiculously low insurance cost, for an overheated 1000+dps scrambling, mwd'ing, webbing Domi, with MY skills, and I'm not even a year old and have split my SP somewhat, i.e. I'm still at Hybrids 4, Surgical 4. Nor do I have Cyber 5, not that it matters a great deal for this. Sans heat I stll get almost 950. (382 of the 1000+, or 37%, is Kinetic, though) Shield tankers should really fear the Geddon btw, especiallly when coming back from Angel mission, to take an example. Insurance in regards to suiciding is broken!
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.11 20:30:00 - [18] its been said that you are never safe Trashed sig, Shark was here
Khanid Kutie I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.01.11 20:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Xavior Mousepractice For the record - this isn't a whine. for the record, denial of a whine, makes it a whine by default...everything after your italics is no considered a whine. Therefore, stop *****ing about hi sec ganking, its perfectly fine. Eve is a sandbox, people like you are the kids who pee in it.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.11 20:54:00 - [20] BE WARNED The trick of filling your cargo hold with lot of cheap trash/bookmarks DOES NOT WORK against serious suicide gankers. Although you are entirely correct to be taking the possibility of Neuts being used to drain your cap. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2008.01.11 21:03:00 - [21] Originally by: Khanid Kutie Originally by: Xavior Mousepractice For the record - this isn't a whine. for the record, denial of a whine, makes it a whine by default...everything after your italics is no considered a whine. Therefore, stop *****ing about hi sec ganking, its perfectly fine. Eve is a sandbox, people like you are the kids who pee in it. Try reading the OP first, idiot. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Jack Freely Caldari Trading Corp	Posted - 2008.01.11 21:29:00 - [22] If you read the gank posts they are mostly haulers, who were auto-piloting and afk eating a sandwich. Most pirates don't want to work for their isk so they attack easy targets, just don't make yourself an easy target. Also remember the sector security rating will play a big part in if they will attack or not. But I don't know much, I have only attacked the easy afk haulers
Aceoil Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.01.11 21:35:00 - [23] Question 1. Yes enemy battleships could equip heavy neuts and drain your cap to 0. Two neuts on every BS should do it. Question 2. Injecting is possible. But when you are getting ganked there is alot of lag that comes into play. The entire grid becomings a 1 FPS slideshow. I doubt you would be able to time the injection once your cap runs out. See Q3. Question 3. Killing you with resists on is very likely. The team that takes you down will be counting on you running your hardeners, and repairers. And will equip their guns/torpedoes to your weakest resist. So even if you were able to inject extra cap to keep your hardeners running. You should die anyways, because the team would have brought along enough BS's. If your hardeners turn off, then the team kills you even quicker, and more BS's show up on the killmail instead of pods.
Jernau Riggs	Posted - 2008.01.11 22:28:00 - [24] Quote: A fitted out suicide gank dominix costs less then 30m after insurance. I really can't beleive that insurance is paid up on ships that suicide gank other ships in high sec, surly your insurance should be void if your ship was destroyed while breaking the law?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari SIVAKASI	Posted - 2008.01.11 22:30:00 - [25] To be fair, why insurance are paid to ships killed by Concord policemen? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment -KB-
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.01.11 22:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire To be fair, why insurance are paid to ships killed by Concord policemen? Surely you know better. Anyway, for the uninformed yeah...makes zero sense with regard to all we understand about insurance but hey...this is a game and they do what they want. In game terms the Devs seem to want suicide ganking. There is a cost associated with suicide ganking. If the Devs felt the cost was too little they could use insurance payouts as a means of adjusting how high that bar is. Considering they have never made a change in this regard one can only assume the Devs think everything is just peachy as is.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari SIVAKASI	Posted - 2008.01.11 22:57:00 - [27] Maybe risks vs rewards? If Devs really want suicide Gankakkes, they should remove insurance because it balances risks vs rewards. Also it makes no sense to keep insurance in suicides because it encourages lame play. No wonder, I keep seeing threads relating to lame play popping out every now and then. Maybe you are right, Devs are encouraging lame play and that is why there are many players laming about in the game playing borderline exploits. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment -KB-
Ralara	Posted - 2008.01.11 23:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Xavior Mousepractice Thanks Malcanis. Completely understand that if enough people want me dead then it's going to happen. I am trying to get a feel for the balance of whether I would be an attractive target for a suicide gank team scanning out mission runners with an aim to profit from dropped modules. You can fiddle with EFT but basically, you become "attractive" as a target when: 1) They know your style - where you will be, when and how you play. 2) The loot you drop (25-75% - averaging around roughly 50% of your total stuff on your ship) is worth quite a bit more than the amount of ships, plus fittings (minus insurance) it will take to kill you. If it takes 1 billion isk of ships and fittings to kill you, they're not going to do it over a 1.5b ship - 750m drop - net loss. Easiest way - in your mission station (the one where you use the agent the most), set a "warp out" book mark - get a shuttle and undock and "go forward" (in the direction you're initially travelling), say, 1000km or more. Bookmark it. Now, whenever you undock, simply warp there as soon as you can - you're already aligned and travelling fast enough to insta warp - people wont have time to scan and lock you. Maybe set 3 or 4 of them. or 10. Vary the distance every time. From there, warp to a safe spot (make 10... vary it every time). From there, warp to the mission :) When you undock, isntantly activate your hardners/reppers/boosters. You should be more or less safe. Sure, they can probe you out, but if you're in a system with many missioners, they wont know which Apoc (or whatever you use) is you. Name your ship something else. Pick another character's name and call it, say, Ralara's Armageddon etc. Sure, you could eventually die, but it'll make it that much harder for them to do it. HTH.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.01.12 02:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Jenny Spitfire To be fair, why insurance are paid to ships killed by Concord policemen? Surely you know better. Anyway, for the uninformed yeah...makes zero sense with regard to all we understand about insurance but hey...this is a game and they do what they want. In game terms the Devs seem to want suicide ganking. There is a cost associated with suicide ganking. If the Devs felt the cost was too little they could use insurance payouts as a means of adjusting how high that bar is. Considering they have never made a change in this regard one can only assume the Devs think everything is just peachy as is. People are SERIOUSLy off the ball with the whole 'insurance payout' thing. Your in a hound. You gank a shuttle with a 1 bill BPO in it. Do you think the ganker gives even the remotest **** about a 5 million isk insurance payout when his alt is hottailing it in the opposite direction with a billion isk in his cargo? SKUNK
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.12 02:31:00 - [30] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Jenny Spitfire To be fair, why insurance are paid to ships killed by Concord policemen? Surely you know better. Anyway, for the uninformed yeah...makes zero sense with regard to all we understand about insurance but hey...this is a game and they do what they want. In game terms the Devs seem to want suicide ganking. There is a cost associated with suicide ganking. If the Devs felt the cost was too little they could use insurance payouts as a means of adjusting how high that bar is. Considering they have never made a change in this regard one can only assume the Devs think everything is just peachy as is. People are SERIOUSLy off the ball with the whole 'insurance payout' thing. Your in a hound. You gank a shuttle with a 1 bill BPO in it. Do you think the ganker gives even the remotest **** about a 5 million isk insurance payout when his alt is hottailing it in the opposite direction with a billion isk in his cargo? SKUNK In the example you give, you are correct. However, removal of insurance WOULD change the "break even" point for the minimum value of cargo to worth shooting. Play nice while you butcher each other.

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