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Malcanis
5 finger discounteers
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Posted - 2008.01.14 12:46:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Ciena Centrifuge
I was looking through the character/timecode section seeing what kind of characters are for sale and noticed lots of people selling 9x 90 day codes, 20 x 30 day codes etc.... These guys are spending well over 300 bucks a pop to buy isk from CCP. Why does CCP find it a crime to buy isk from some internet site that's not labeled ccp but turn around and sell it theirselves? Greed maybe. Anyone else find the selling of GTC's disapointing?
I dunno. Would you find it a crime if I sold your car, yet you'd feel perfectly entitled to sell it yourself?
PS If not PM me with license plate details pls.
More seriously, they're NOT buying ISK from CCP. CCP create no new ISK and do not receive money for ISK. They're paying CCP for game time. They're "buying" ISK from other players. It may seem like a small difference but it's a bit like the difference between paying someone to work for you and buying a slave. In both cases, you're exchanging your money to get labour, but where the money goes makes all the difference to the acceptability of the transaction.
And finally: this is like the 5000th thread whining about GTC for ISK. Have you at least read the most recent ones? All the issues were covered pretty thoroughly in those.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
5 finger discounteers
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Posted - 2008.01.14 12:47:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Estephania
Edited by: Estephania on 14/01/2008 12:34:26
Ppl will buy advantage in game by their RL cash no matter what you do. From the outsiders' point of view, there's no difference at all between GTCs and ISK sellers, both allow ppl to get in-game currency with out of game means. CCP simply cashes in with the GTCs and some sweatshop owners are cashing in on illegal ISK selling.
Don't forget that the GTC system at least allows players to play for free. I recall you being quite concerned about people who don't earn thousands of euros a week, so this aspect should appeal to you.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.14 12:52:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: MotherMoon
B.Isk sellers infuse the economy with isk that wouldn't exist if there was no demand
The importance of this point cannot be overstated. The GTC trade does not increase the amount of ISK injected into the economy, since it's between normal players.
Farmers, despite making a up a small percentage of total accounts, are actually responsible for the majority of inflationary pressure in the EVE economy. Why, you ask?
Let's assume that the average player spends 3 hours a day performing activities that generate ISK, primarily Mission Running or Ratting. ISK farmers do this 23/7, so each ISK Farmer injects eight times as much ISK into the economy as a normal player. This means that even if 5% of EVE accounts are ISK farmers, they are responsible for over 40% of EVE's inflationary pressure.
I think the isk farmers are way less than 5% of the playerbase, as they need afairly large pool of buyers to get a profit.
On the other hand they have a proportionally larger effect than the x8 isk production of your example. As the buyer get the isk with little effort he will have little restrain in spending them, so he will overpay some item, giving eccess isk to the seller, that again will have larger wallets and be more willing to spend.
Another factor is that the isk farmer will have the efficency of a expert player in farming isk (well trained miner with good equipement for exampe) while a average player doing mining as a side activity would not necessarly have all the skills at the maximum level and the good equpement.
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Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
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Posted - 2008.01.14 12:52:00 -
[34]
Seriously though, RMT is bad. Doesn't matter how it creeps into the game, whether it's legal or illegal. It defeats the whole point of in-game resource gathering. Why should I earn ISK in game at all, when my work-hour costs half a billion ISK or more? This is stupid, it renders a large portion of the game obsolete and irrelevant. CCP has found the way to profit from it, but it doesn't make the whole thing better. It's like making a drug-dealers pay a tax, because you can't root out drug trafficking completely.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2008.01.14 13:04:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Adonis 4174
A quick look around the various isk seller websites indicates that their prices have risen in line with gtc sellers prices. This is why gtc sales are allowed, last year $5 would buy you billions, now people are boasting at selling 100M for $5.95
Absolute rubbish...so typical of this forum now.
Which, the fact that it's increased the cost of buying isk twentyfold, the fact that this will mean less people buy less isk or the fact that you had to resort to an ad-hominem attack because you couldn't answer the numbers?
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Anything less is wasted effort |
heheheh
Singularity.
Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 13:20:00 -
[36]
If these people have more money than sense then hell let them do it,
nothing sweeter than knowing the ship you just popped was payed for by some fools irl cash.
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heheheh
Singularity.
Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 13:22:00 -
[37]
Quote:
Why should I earn ISK in game at all, when my work-hour costs half a billion ISK or more?
lol
go for it, in my opinion exchanging real cash for fake cash is backwards and ridiculous. If your prepared to swap your "work hour" for pixels then more the fool you.
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Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.01.14 13:25:00 -
[38]
Quote:
It's like making a drug-dealers pay a tax, because you can't root out drug trafficking completely.
man if only the goverments would see sense and do this.
Your opinion is presicely that, each to his own, if they want to spend cash on pixels like the above poster says then more power to them, if u ask me ccp is just making cash out of idiots, the way business always has been all over the world since ill swap my pig for your magic beans.
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Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.01.14 13:29:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ralek Talen
making isk in EVE takes time. 
only if you decide to mine,mission, trade or rat, the 4 most popular but poor methods of income.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2008.01.14 13:42:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Adonis 4174
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Adonis 4174
A quick look around the various isk seller websites indicates that their prices have risen in line with gtc sellers prices. This is why gtc sales are allowed, last year $5 would buy you billions, now people are boasting at selling 100M for $5.95
Absolute rubbish...so typical of this forum now.
Which, the fact that it's increased the cost of buying isk twentyfold, the fact that this will mean less people buy less isk or the fact that you had to resort to an ad-hominem attack because you couldn't answer the numbers?
A billion ISK has never cost $5 (and with the amount of spam you can't really miss the going rate updated by the hour).
If the price for ISK goes up it is either a sign of CCP shutting down farmers faster or that it is even more than 10% of the playerbase that buy illegal ISK now so the farmers can't keep up. The 10% figure was mentioned by the GM's at FanFest btw.
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Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
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Posted - 2008.01.14 14:02:00 -
[41]
Originally by: XY55XTY
Yet another GTC for Isk thread!
Run for the hills!!!!!
I just came from the hills and they are chock full of GTC to ISK threads.
Run away from the hills!!! Run to the valleys!!!
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Riddick Valer
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Posted - 2008.01.14 14:08:00 -
[42]
Once again, people misunderstand the GTC program. CCP makes no $ off of this. Look at these examples.
No GTC Program:
Player A pays CCP $15 for a month
Player B pays CCP $15 for a month
2 players play the game. CCP makes $30
GTC Program
Player A pays ccp $15 for a month, + $15 for a GTC.
Player B buys GTC for isk. Gets a month of game time.
2 players play the game. CCP makes $30.
The only extra money CCP makes is the # of accounts that would not play at all without the GTC program (people that couldn't afford EVE anyway.) I would imagine this is a rather small % of the eve playerbase.
Also, here is the difference between casual players using GTC and buying isk from another site.
GTC:
Player A plays as normal. He Diverts 200m from his isk-flow to buy a GTC and play for another month. He may play a bit harder to earn the extra money, but overall, not much extra isk is being generated. Any isk being generated is being injected in rather small ammounts (200m is not that much for many eve players)
Other isk methods
Player A controls 6 computers and macros 23/7 to earn as much isk as possible. This player sells the money to multiple players, and probably funds their game time through GTC. This depresses the mineral market (if mining), depresses the LP market (if missioning), or ties up 0.0 resources (if ratting), and generates a large ammount of isk that would not normally be generated.
This is a traditional inflationary system. Large ammounts of money being generated that are competeing for the same number of goods.
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Nicholas Barker
MASS
Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.01.14 14:22:00 -
[43]
the russian mafia and the triads are laundering money, word in low sec is the italians are trying to break through but found out that it's too easy to eat pizza all day when you're sitting playing eve 23/7.
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Shevar
Minmatar
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.01.14 14:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Estephania
It's like making a drug-dealers pay a tax, because you can't root out drug trafficking completely.
Right hence making drugs legal can only lead to positive things, ie. proper regulation so that you know what you buy is actually good and not directly deadly like rat poison, not dealing with some random lowlife only interested in getting you hooked on harder stuff, more income for the goverment, less crime.
And no supporting evidence that legalizing drugs leads to higher consumption, eg in holland there aren't significantly more people smoking weed as in for example germany or belgium.
So in other words legalize it!
/end hijack
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Resolve
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Posted - 2008.01.14 14:30:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Rid**** Valer
OCCP makes no $ off of this.
The only extra money CCP makes is the # of accounts that would not play at all without the GTC program (people that couldn't afford EVE anyway.) I would imagine this is a rather small % of the eve playerbase.
This number is larger than you may imagine. It's not just people who couldn't afford EVE. It's people without a way to pay (no CC), people in the EU who buy GTC (and pay in USD to avoid VAT), people who have extra ISK that just want another month+ of play and so on.
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Pliskkenn
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.01.14 15:34:00 -
[46]
Originally by: MotherMoon
I can go up to my friend in school and tell him that if he buys me lunch I'll give him 30 mil
Back in the day and I'm talking fullon 6-7 years ago I did this with people I played Runescape with.
*I'll give you a 1000 gold for your sandwichs*
"Alright!"
Free lunch ftw.
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Malcanis
5 finger discounteers
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Posted - 2008.01.14 16:00:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Estephania
Seriously though, RMT is bad. Doesn't matter how it creeps into the game, whether it's legal or illegal. It defeats the whole point of in-game resource gathering. Why should I earn ISK in game at all, when my work-hour costs half a billion ISK or more? This is stupid, it renders a large portion of the game obsolete and irrelevant. CCP has found the way to profit from it, but it doesn't make the whole thing better. It's like making a drug-dealers pay a tax, because you can't root out drug trafficking completely.
Yeah, $ for ISk isn't good. Jesus, do we have to go through all this again? So soon?
You said it yourself: it can't be stopped entirely, but at least the GTC system supports the game instead of leaching money from it and allows more people to play. It's simply the least worst alternative. Your drug trafficking analogy is probably a good one: banning drugs doesn't work - in fact people can even get drugs in prison, so we'd need a regime more restrictive than being in prison to prevent drug use. Following the analogy, pretty much the only way to stop RMT isk buying would be to eliminate the EvE economy: to prevent ANY kind of asset or ISK transfer between players.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Gealbhan
Caldari
The SAS
The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.01.14 16:34:00 -
[48]
As mentioned, GTC sales do not introduce new isk into the game, macro famers and isk buying does.
CCP gets money for GTC
Player sells GTC for isk
Buyer continues playing eve.
Everyone wins.
No one wins when the macro farmers sell their isk only the farmers.
"Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium. |
Tarkan Kador
Amarr
PanTarkan Kador Holdings
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Posted - 2008.01.14 17:15:00 -
[49]
Plenty of people lose when GTC to ISK sales happen. Namely, every line subscriber who pays as they go, rather than through piecemeal timecodes.
They have to put up with a mass of EVE characters who tie up research slots, tie up customer service resources, deplete belts, clog systems, gank them, horde ISK, and pay nothing to CCP for the privilege of doing so.
The GTC buyer pays a lump sum today, but by selling the GTCs, create service demands in the future in excess of their own service consumption. The players who buy those GTCs with ISK from the GTC buyer create service demands, yet pay nothing for the service demands they end up taking.
Right now, there's no advantage to subscribing to this game as opposed to playing off of stockpiled timecodes. That to me is a problem, given all of the problems lately with ingame CS, the lack of research space in the stations, and lag.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.01.14 17:27:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat
There is no inflation in EVE according to the good doctor.
Note that I used the term "Inflationary Pressure," not inflation. Recent reductions in high-end mineral prices and the T2 market crash have resulted in much deflation, but much of the inflationary pressure is being caused by ISK Farmers.
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Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
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Fenderson
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.01.14 19:26:00 -
[51]
so many threads about this... seems like it warrants a sticky with a nice explanation from DrE explaining why GTC selling is better than the alternative of rampant 3rd party isk selling.
DO YOU PLAY POKER????
Join ingame channels "DOA Poker" and "Eve Online Hold'em" |
Kraya Luden
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Posted - 2008.01.14 19:34:00 -
[52]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/01/2008 05:22:20
Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/01/2008 05:15:03
you can stop me
no one can stop me.
This was a triumph.
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Leora Nomen
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.14 20:12:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Rid**** Valer
Once again, people misunderstand the GTC program. CCP makes no $ off of this. Look at these examples.
No GTC Program:
Player A pays CCP $15 for a month
Player B pays CCP $15 for a month
2 players play the game. CCP makes $30
GTC Program
Player A pays ccp $15 for a month, + $15 for a GTC.
Player B buys GTC for isk. Gets a month of game time.
2 players play the game. CCP makes $30.
Player B thinks "Gee! I can open second account, train it for a hulk and not pay anything for it". CCP makes $45.
The only extra money CCP makes is the # of accounts that would not play at all without the GTC program (people that couldn't afford EVE anyway.) I would imagine this is a rather small % of the eve playerbase.
fixed :P
The number of accounts paid by ISK is actually very substantial. Just see how many codes are being sold on forums each day - and this is only a fraction of sales done as many people trade codes with their corp and alliance mates. If I take a small sample of all the players in EVE that I've played with so far, roughly 20% of their accounts were paid by the codes.
People who go and buy ISK from farmers don't buy codes from CCP causing the average prices on them to rise as they hurt the supply. As average GTC prices rise players who pay for their time with ISK have to grind more hours each month. The more they have to grind, the less likely they are to use a code to pay for play time and the less sustainable additional accounts appear to them. Add to this that codes are a pre-paid product, and players are also more likely to pre-pay if they see that it costs them nothing in terms of real world currency.
guide to game time codes |
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