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Making 100% Tax Rate Work (Thought Experament)

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Saashia Gallente Blackstar Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.17 14:56:00 - [1] I just finished reading the good Doctor's Blog Part 3 on Corporations, and it made me think about those handfull of corps that have set 100% tax rates. First, I suppose these could be 1 man corps, and in that case should be excluded from the metrics. But as a thought experament, lets discuss ways that a corp could opperate under those rates. I actually think this could work well, if certain criteria are met amongst the members. To make it work, there would have to be a level of trust and dedication amongst the members of the corporation. Some will say, "Well that ends the discussion," however, I think we should all consider that statement for a while and realize that it's more of an accomplishment to actually make it work. Selfishness is not a badge of honor. I think the way to do this, is through the division of shares and regular payouts of dividends. Think of it as paychecks. Each member works at their trade (combat, missioning, trade, crafting, mining, etc.) and the profits of their work go into the corporate wallet. Each interval (week, 2 weeks, month) the CFO calculates the profit minus expenses and distributes it to sharholders as dividend. At certain intervals (quarterly, etc.) The CFO would advise the board on members that have contributed extra to the corp, and they would decide how to reward those members with extra shares. Members that fell behind would be discussed as well to ensure they were not just riding the wagon to milk the rewards. Again, this is about people working together to achieve a goal (no not communism). Now, I thought, "Well sure, but problems are going to arise with some people thinking they would make more on their own." That's a serious point to consider. Yes, if less people contribute than most, the ones doing serious work would be able to make more on their own. I think this is where these corps struggle. But when the majority of members activly work at what they do, I believe the individual profits would exceed what they would be if the player did the same outside the corp. So if we have people contributing, the paychecks now depend on the volume of shares owned by members. I think this is an important point as well. Most corp leaders are very protective of the share volume and control slipping away, and that is important as there are people out there that would take advantage just to grief others. This is not unlike the real world. Boards have to protect their companies assets from hostile takeovers. This all comes down to knowing your people, but there are enough safety features that you should be able to keep control and reward the workers at the same time. The thing to avoid is having a board of directors that own a million shares, while the individual member owns 10. Again, he won't make profit from that. I think it boils down to a few essentials (please add if you think of more) Dedicated and fair leaders (especially the CFO, no one likes late paychecks) Dedicated membership (but you have to make it worth their time) Fair distribution of shares Cooperation between members. Thoughts?
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:12:00 - [2] Edited by: Zizzyx on 17/01/2008 15:14:28 So everybody contributes 100% of their earnings to the common good, and then the fair and just (and reliable) leadership distributes the money to its members? That sure sounds like a great idea on paper, and as a matter of fact I'm surprised that no first-world countries have tried it... EDIT: In all seriousness, if a 100% tax worked for any period of time, one of the side effects would involve people working less because responsibility for their personal wealth is no longer squarely on their shoulders. It's more or less an unchangeable fact of human nature that a person works harder when it is either strictly or mostly for their benefit. Taxes should be set at a rate that allows a corporation/alliance to both pay operational expenses and also run a reasonable combat reimbursement program. Anything over that is just silly.
TrippyX The Syndicate Inc	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:13:00 - [3] Member 'farms' shares by showing good behavior for half a year. He then leaves corp and joins another corp making his own ISK. Member still has shares and still gets the dividend. there's the problem.
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:18:00 - [4] Originally by: TrippyX Member 'farms' shares by showing good behavior for half a year. He then leaves corp and joins another corp making his own ISK. Member still has shares and still gets the dividend. there's the problem. Also, extrapolating this line of thinking to it's worst form: "reliable" CFO fudges numbers for the entire life of the organization and steals the entire wallet after some amount of time, after which he launders the isk through multiple NPC school accounts and deletes his character.
Saashia Gallente Blackstar Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:22:00 - [5] Good points, and that was the purpose of this post. Now discuss. There are quite a few organizations doing just that. If you work for a steel mill, you don't get the money made from the steel you produce each day. You get a paycheck, and probably some type of profitshare each quarter, year, whatever. The owned shares point is good too. Is there not a way to revoke shares? If not, maybe shares are not the way to go. Perhaps it would be better to have a list of roles and an associated payscale. Something like: Total Profit - Expenses = 100% Of that: (just pulling numbers out the air here) 75% divided to members with "Employee" title 20% divided to "Management" 5% divided to "Directors" This is a short list to save space, there could be more levels. Members that contribute could have their level raised equalling more pay. This is a great discussion, please continue.
Parasite S Quatidion United Intergalactic Nations	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:37:00 - [6] Edited by: Parasite S on 17/01/2008 15:44:22 Edited by: Parasite S on 17/01/2008 15:40:55 miner an trader are not affected by the 100% tax and would have to pay all they get in manually.... just sliping in several million a day would stil increase their payout by a lot where also a lot of trust has to be. also if it comes to pay blueprints you will be really *****ing with your member which one to buy, aswell as the minerals could aswell be used to manufacture this or that.... in fact you get closer to a point where 1 person will just blame the other 1. its doable with people who know each other in rl but infact its much to messy with people that never met each other since there will once be a point you go against personal wants... once you dont feel like your goals are reachable in a corp you leave.... --------------- DON'T troll me
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:42:00 - [7] You're very right as far as labor unions are concerned, but I think that the problem with applying that kind of metric to a video game is that (I assume) the majority of people don't play games like this so that they can find a new boss to work under. I can say for certain that if anybody had told me, on my first day in corp, that I was going to be doing mining ops to help out the swarm, I would have told them to bugger off. There's not a whole bunch I can say on the subject of corp taxes, though, as the billions I've made in my four months playing weren't taxable anyway - which is where I think this idea falls apart a bit unless you've got people that fit the "worker bee" mentality. If you've got a corp full of go-getters that are motivated to make waaaay more money than you can possibly make either ratting or mining, your tax income is going to be garbage - and those go-getters are the kind of people you're looking for, if I'm not mistaken.
Saashia Gallente Blackstar Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:42:00 - [8] Quote: miner an trader are not affected by the 100% tax and would have to pay all they get in manually.... What exactly is taxed by the corp? Just Mission rewards and such?
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Saashia Gallente What exactly is taxed by the corp? Just Mission rewards and such? There is a refine tax as well on corp/alliance controlled outposts/stations with a refining service.
Parasite S Quatidion United Intergalactic Nations	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:49:00 - [10] Edited by: Parasite S on 17/01/2008 15:50:16 mission rewards are taxed. killing rats of a bounty over a set heigh are taxed not sure but think its arroun 30k pls correct me oh yes i forgot..... you also would have trust in member geting factionloot that it will be sold for "corpssake" well i guess that was it about tax Originally by: Zizzyx Originally by: Saashia Gallente What exactly is taxed by the corp? Just Mission rewards and such? There is a refine tax as well on corp/alliance controlled outposts/stations with a refining service. thats set by the corp owning the outpost. there could also be docking fees set by that corp. falling apart considering npc stations except the normal refinery waste if you dont have skills and decent standing to decrease it to 0 --------------- DON'T troll me

Jack Spectre	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Saashia Gallente Edited by: Saashia Gallente on 17/01/2008 15:28:04 Good points, and that was the purpose of this post. Now discuss. There are quite a few organizations doing just that. If you work for a steel mill, you don't get the money made from the steel you produce each day. You get a paycheck, and probably some type of profitshare each quarter, year, whatever. The owned shares point is good too. Is there not a way to revoke shares? If not, maybe shares are not the way to go. Perhaps it would be better to have a list of roles and an associated payscale. Something like: Total Profit - Expenses = 100% Of that: (just pulling numbers out the air here) 75% divided to members with "Employee" title 20% divided to "Management" 5% divided to "Directors" This is a short list to save space, there could be more levels. Members that contribute could have their level raised equalling more pay. This is a great discussion, please continue. Quote: Also, extrapolating this line of thinking to it's worst form: "reliable" CFO fudges numbers for the entire life of the organization and steals the entire wallet after some amount of time, after which he launders the isk through multiple NPC school accounts and deletes his character. I know this happens and it bothers me. But for sake of this discussion let's say your CFO is actually trustworthy. I think the paradigm here is that most corps gain members to have members, I think this type of corp would be more selective as to recruit people who were actually motivated to make it work. Well I don't think there's a whole lot to discuss. What you are suggesting is communism, which can not work at all unless the leadership is 100% trustworthy. This is not human nature, especially with vast amounts of wealth in play. Add in the fact that there are really no consequences for stealing or skimming the money, and now you've got a real temptation on your hands. Communism doesn't even really hold up on paper, to be honest. When everybody throws the fruit of their labor into a huge bucket, thereÆs no individual pride on accomplishments. In the 1980Æs the Soviet Union had to take free grain shipments from the US just to feed their people. This is absurd considering that the landmass of the former Soviet Union contains vast amounts of arable land and natural resources, much more so than the US or other 1st world nations. If you apply this model to the EVE universe, you will likely get the same result. The role of government, or in the case of EVE, corporations, is to administer infrastructure that no one person could do. The activities of corps/governments should be limited to that role. Collectives / communes just donÆt work in groups larger than a few dozen or so.
Ban Shui Eve University	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:00:00 - [12] Edited by: Ban Shui on 17/01/2008 16:00:51 The main reason for minimising tax and letting people spend their money is that no one spends their money more carefully than they themselves will. Self interest is a very powerful incentive. Taxing people heavily only to pay people incentives is a very inefficient way of doing something that could easily be done by not taxing at all. But a 100% tax rate can work effectively in certain situations, you need 1) dedicated leaders who have an open commitment towards the common goal 2) members who are highly motivated to achieve the common goal. Take the military for example, it is a pseudo communist organisation. Everyone gets the same pay (according to rank/qualifications). There is little monetary incentive to work harder, yet militaries can be highly effective with very dedicated and hardworking members who are prepared to sacrifice a great deal.
Kari Daala Daala Spaceworks	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:04:00 - [13] The main problem with a 100% taxes is that it does not affect all members equally. Because only certain transactions are taxed, the main people affected by corp taxes are mission runners and ratters. Also, there is no way to tax the other forms of "income" like loot from kills, whether it be pvp or pve.
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Kari Daala The main problem with a 100% taxes is that it does not affect all members equally. Because only certain transactions are taxed, the main people affected by corp taxes are mission runners and ratters. Also, there is no way to tax the other forms of "income" like loot from kills, whether it be pvp or pve. Or margin trading or LP store -> market activities.
Miss Domination GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:22:00 - [15] internet spaceship communism itt. Gotta have Feyth.
Hitme Harder HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:24:00 - [16] Sorry but capitalism >>> communism. Because poasting on the forums is serious business.
To'Basco	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:27:00 - [17] snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. ~Saint
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:34:00 - [18] Originally by: To'Basco what happens if you leave corp and decide to keep your shares rather than handing them back, you get paid for doing nothing Well then by golly you just revoke that guy's shares! But then who do you decide who gets to revoke someone's shares? Hmmm.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:35:00 - [19] You can also just pay dividends to 'members' instead of shareholders - everyone gets the same share then though. Now recruiting!
Fehz Combat and Mining Utility Inc. Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:37:00 - [20] I was once in a corp that would set the tax rate to 100% whenever there was supposed to be a big op so that no one would be off trying to rat while the rest of us defended their sorry butts..

TrippyX The Syndicate Inc	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:40:00 - [21] I don't think you can revoke shares. I've tried to find such an option for our shares because some are in hands of old characters but can't find an option. Afaik the only way for a corp to get shares it handed out back is for the shareholder to give/sell them back to the corp. (and if there is an option to revoke, please say how :))
Hitme Harder HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Fehz I was once in a corp that would set the tax rate to 100% whenever there was supposed to be a big op so that no one would be off trying to rat while the rest of us defended their sorry butts.. Thats actually a pretty good idea there. Because poasting on the forums is serious business.
Pac SubCom A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:52:00 - [23] Edited by: Pac SubCom on 17/01/2008 16:56:06 What you need are some grown up people who don't run away screaming "COMMUNISM BAD!!!" Communist Eve corporations are closer to real world corporations than "capitalist" eve corps. If most capital is owned by members, it's no corporation. Capitalist corps are a joint venture of independent operators, who all make their own money: It's more like a nation state, not a corporation, with a mutual defense agreement between citizens. Seems capitalism doesn't work either, in a world where everybody is a half-god. --------------- ∞ TQFE
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:00:00 - [24] 100% tax would work only in cases where the corporation is incredibly wealthy and can afford to buy battleship after battleship after battleship for it members. Such a corporation would have to have larger stock of t2 bpo's and good moon mining, pets, etc, to actually have enough money to do this on a large scale. It may be that a 100% taxes in such a case is not to give all your isk rewards from npcing to the corp, not for the corp to keep you from npcing altogether. Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 17/01/2008 16:56:06 What you need are some grown up people who don't run away screaming "COMMUNISM BAD!!!" Communist Eve corporations are closer to real world corporations than "capitalist" eve corps. If most capital is owned by members, it's no corporation. Capitalist corps are a joint venture of independent operators, who all make their own money: It's more like a nation state, not a corporation, with a mutual defense agreement between citizens. Seems capitalism doesn't work either, in a world where everybody is a half-god. agreeing with this post. Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Saashia Gallente "experament"? You fail. ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus?
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.01.17 18:32:00 - [27] Edited by: Re Mi on 17/01/2008 18:34:32 Dividends give lazy people benefits, and the people who actually did the work will have to support parasites. Unless you have investors, dividends seem pointless. The goal of most taxes is to put isk into productive assets like ships, BPO or stations and build your corp capabilities so that you can convert isk into military power, logistics support or production capacity, if you don't do that, taxes are pointless in a pvp context. edit Unless you are at war and need people fighting, not ratting. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Nethers School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.01.17 18:54:00 - [28] Edited by: Nethers on 17/01/2008 18:54:53 thats pure enslavement I dont like income taxes, Ron Paul for president
Seredith GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 18:56:00 - [29] stunning that people still consider 100% tax during 'mandatory' ops as useful in any manner. playing tin-pot dictator and swinging your e-peen at all your members results in people just not logging in, or logging in on neutral corp alts to make money. P.S. 100% tax doesn't work at other times like you want it to oh god stop trying.
Saashia Gallente Blackstar Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.17 19:31:00 - [30] Edited by: Saashia Gallente on 17/01/2008 19:34:12 Pac SubCom - I agree. I think on the whole, people have had good discussion here. Minus the trolls. And yes, most so-called capitalist corps in Eve are not at all. In REAL capialist corporations, you sign contracts giving up rights to ideas and inventions while in the employee of said corporation. Zathi - Shut up about spelling. Nothing make a person look more moronic than pointing out others spelling mistakes. You, sir, are that person!



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