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Making 100% Tax Rate Work (Thought Experament)

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Saashia Gallente Blackstar Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.17 14:56:00 - [1] I just finished reading the good Doctor's Blog Part 3 on Corporations, and it made me think about those handfull of corps that have set 100% tax rates. First, I suppose these could be 1 man corps, and in that case should be excluded from the metrics. But as a thought experament, lets discuss ways that a corp could opperate under those rates. I actually think this could work well, if certain criteria are met amongst the members. To make it work, there would have to be a level of trust and dedication amongst the members of the corporation. Some will say, "Well that ends the discussion," however, I think we should all consider that statement for a while and realize that it's more of an accomplishment to actually make it work. Selfishness is not a badge of honor. I think the way to do this, is through the division of shares and regular payouts of dividends. Think of it as paychecks. Each member works at their trade (combat, missioning, trade, crafting, mining, etc.) and the profits of their work go into the corporate wallet. Each interval (week, 2 weeks, month) the CFO calculates the profit minus expenses and distributes it to sharholders as dividend. At certain intervals (quarterly, etc.) The CFO would advise the board on members that have contributed extra to the corp, and they would decide how to reward those members with extra shares. Members that fell behind would be discussed as well to ensure they were not just riding the wagon to milk the rewards. Again, this is about people working together to achieve a goal (no not communism). Now, I thought, "Well sure, but problems are going to arise with some people thinking they would make more on their own." That's a serious point to consider. Yes, if less people contribute than most, the ones doing serious work would be able to make more on their own. I think this is where these corps struggle. But when the majority of members activly work at what they do, I believe the individual profits would exceed what they would be if the player did the same outside the corp. So if we have people contributing, the paychecks now depend on the volume of shares owned by members. I think this is an important point as well. Most corp leaders are very protective of the share volume and control slipping away, and that is important as there are people out there that would take advantage just to grief others. This is not unlike the real world. Boards have to protect their companies assets from hostile takeovers. This all comes down to knowing your people, but there are enough safety features that you should be able to keep control and reward the workers at the same time. The thing to avoid is having a board of directors that own a million shares, while the individual member owns 10. Again, he won't make profit from that. I think it boils down to a few essentials (please add if you think of more) Dedicated and fair leaders (especially the CFO, no one likes late paychecks) Dedicated membership (but you have to make it worth their time) Fair distribution of shares Cooperation between members. Thoughts?
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:12:00 - [2] Edited by: Zizzyx on 17/01/2008 15:14:28 So everybody contributes 100% of their earnings to the common good, and then the fair and just (and reliable) leadership distributes the money to its members? That sure sounds like a great idea on paper, and as a matter of fact I'm surprised that no first-world countries have tried it... EDIT: In all seriousness, if a 100% tax worked for any period of time, one of the side effects would involve people working less because responsibility for their personal wealth is no longer squarely on their shoulders. It's more or less an unchangeable fact of human nature that a person works harder when it is either strictly or mostly for their benefit. Taxes should be set at a rate that allows a corporation/alliance to both pay operational expenses and also run a reasonable combat reimbursement program. Anything over that is just silly.
TrippyX The Syndicate Inc	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:13:00 - [3] Member 'farms' shares by showing good behavior for half a year. He then leaves corp and joins another corp making his own ISK. Member still has shares and still gets the dividend. there's the problem.
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:18:00 - [4] Originally by: TrippyX Member 'farms' shares by showing good behavior for half a year. He then leaves corp and joins another corp making his own ISK. Member still has shares and still gets the dividend. there's the problem. Also, extrapolating this line of thinking to it's worst form: "reliable" CFO fudges numbers for the entire life of the organization and steals the entire wallet after some amount of time, after which he launders the isk through multiple NPC school accounts and deletes his character.
Saashia Gallente Blackstar Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:22:00 - [5] Good points, and that was the purpose of this post. Now discuss. There are quite a few organizations doing just that. If you work for a steel mill, you don't get the money made from the steel you produce each day. You get a paycheck, and probably some type of profitshare each quarter, year, whatever. The owned shares point is good too. Is there not a way to revoke shares? If not, maybe shares are not the way to go. Perhaps it would be better to have a list of roles and an associated payscale. Something like: Total Profit - Expenses = 100% Of that: (just pulling numbers out the air here) 75% divided to members with "Employee" title 20% divided to "Management" 5% divided to "Directors" This is a short list to save space, there could be more levels. Members that contribute could have their level raised equalling more pay. This is a great discussion, please continue.
Parasite S Quatidion United Intergalactic Nations	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:37:00 - [6] Edited by: Parasite S on 17/01/2008 15:44:22 Edited by: Parasite S on 17/01/2008 15:40:55 miner an trader are not affected by the 100% tax and would have to pay all they get in manually.... just sliping in several million a day would stil increase their payout by a lot where also a lot of trust has to be. also if it comes to pay blueprints you will be really *****ing with your member which one to buy, aswell as the minerals could aswell be used to manufacture this or that.... in fact you get closer to a point where 1 person will just blame the other 1. its doable with people who know each other in rl but infact its much to messy with people that never met each other since there will once be a point you go against personal wants... once you dont feel like your goals are reachable in a corp you leave.... --------------- DON'T troll me
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:42:00 - [7] You're very right as far as labor unions are concerned, but I think that the problem with applying that kind of metric to a video game is that (I assume) the majority of people don't play games like this so that they can find a new boss to work under. I can say for certain that if anybody had told me, on my first day in corp, that I was going to be doing mining ops to help out the swarm, I would have told them to bugger off. There's not a whole bunch I can say on the subject of corp taxes, though, as the billions I've made in my four months playing weren't taxable anyway - which is where I think this idea falls apart a bit unless you've got people that fit the "worker bee" mentality. If you've got a corp full of go-getters that are motivated to make waaaay more money than you can possibly make either ratting or mining, your tax income is going to be garbage - and those go-getters are the kind of people you're looking for, if I'm not mistaken.
Saashia Gallente Blackstar Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:42:00 - [8] Quote: miner an trader are not affected by the 100% tax and would have to pay all they get in manually.... What exactly is taxed by the corp? Just Mission rewards and such?
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Saashia Gallente What exactly is taxed by the corp? Just Mission rewards and such? There is a refine tax as well on corp/alliance controlled outposts/stations with a refining service.
Parasite S Quatidion United Intergalactic Nations	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:49:00 - [10] Edited by: Parasite S on 17/01/2008 15:50:16 mission rewards are taxed. killing rats of a bounty over a set heigh are taxed not sure but think its arroun 30k pls correct me oh yes i forgot..... you also would have trust in member geting factionloot that it will be sold for "corpssake" well i guess that was it about tax Originally by: Zizzyx Originally by: Saashia Gallente What exactly is taxed by the corp? Just Mission rewards and such? There is a refine tax as well on corp/alliance controlled outposts/stations with a refining service. thats set by the corp owning the outpost. there could also be docking fees set by that corp. falling apart considering npc stations except the normal refinery waste if you dont have skills and decent standing to decrease it to 0 --------------- DON'T troll me

Jack Spectre	Posted - 2008.01.17 15:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Saashia Gallente Edited by: Saashia Gallente on 17/01/2008 15:28:04 Good points, and that was the purpose of this post. Now discuss. There are quite a few organizations doing just that. If you work for a steel mill, you don't get the money made from the steel you produce each day. You get a paycheck, and probably some type of profitshare each quarter, year, whatever. The owned shares point is good too. Is there not a way to revoke shares? If not, maybe shares are not the way to go. Perhaps it would be better to have a list of roles and an associated payscale. Something like: Total Profit - Expenses = 100% Of that: (just pulling numbers out the air here) 75% divided to members with "Employee" title 20% divided to "Management" 5% divided to "Directors" This is a short list to save space, there could be more levels. Members that contribute could have their level raised equalling more pay. This is a great discussion, please continue. Quote: Also, extrapolating this line of thinking to it's worst form: "reliable" CFO fudges numbers for the entire life of the organization and steals the entire wallet after some amount of time, after which he launders the isk through multiple NPC school accounts and deletes his character. I know this happens and it bothers me. But for sake of this discussion let's say your CFO is actually trustworthy. I think the paradigm here is that most corps gain members to have members, I think this type of corp would be more selective as to recruit people who were actually motivated to make it work. Well I don't think there's a whole lot to discuss. What you are suggesting is communism, which can not work at all unless the leadership is 100% trustworthy. This is not human nature, especially with vast amounts of wealth in play. Add in the fact that there are really no consequences for stealing or skimming the money, and now you've got a real temptation on your hands. Communism doesn't even really hold up on paper, to be honest. When everybody throws the fruit of their labor into a huge bucket, thereÆs no individual pride on accomplishments. In the 1980Æs the Soviet Union had to take free grain shipments from the US just to feed their people. This is absurd considering that the landmass of the former Soviet Union contains vast amounts of arable land and natural resources, much more so than the US or other 1st world nations. If you apply this model to the EVE universe, you will likely get the same result. The role of government, or in the case of EVE, corporations, is to administer infrastructure that no one person could do. The activities of corps/governments should be limited to that role. Collectives / communes just donÆt work in groups larger than a few dozen or so.
Ban Shui Eve University	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:00:00 - [12] Edited by: Ban Shui on 17/01/2008 16:00:51 The main reason for minimising tax and letting people spend their money is that no one spends their money more carefully than they themselves will. Self interest is a very powerful incentive. Taxing people heavily only to pay people incentives is a very inefficient way of doing something that could easily be done by not taxing at all. But a 100% tax rate can work effectively in certain situations, you need 1) dedicated leaders who have an open commitment towards the common goal 2) members who are highly motivated to achieve the common goal. Take the military for example, it is a pseudo communist organisation. Everyone gets the same pay (according to rank/qualifications). There is little monetary incentive to work harder, yet militaries can be highly effective with very dedicated and hardworking members who are prepared to sacrifice a great deal.
Kari Daala Daala Spaceworks	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:04:00 - [13] The main problem with a 100% taxes is that it does not affect all members equally. Because only certain transactions are taxed, the main people affected by corp taxes are mission runners and ratters. Also, there is no way to tax the other forms of "income" like loot from kills, whether it be pvp or pve.
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Kari Daala The main problem with a 100% taxes is that it does not affect all members equally. Because only certain transactions are taxed, the main people affected by corp taxes are mission runners and ratters. Also, there is no way to tax the other forms of "income" like loot from kills, whether it be pvp or pve. Or margin trading or LP store -> market activities.
Miss Domination GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:22:00 - [15] internet spaceship communism itt. Gotta have Feyth.
Hitme Harder HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:24:00 - [16] Sorry but capitalism >>> communism. Because poasting on the forums is serious business.
To'Basco	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:27:00 - [17] snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. ~Saint
Zizzyx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:34:00 - [18] Originally by: To'Basco what happens if you leave corp and decide to keep your shares rather than handing them back, you get paid for doing nothing Well then by golly you just revoke that guy's shares! But then who do you decide who gets to revoke someone's shares? Hmmm.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:35:00 - [19] You can also just pay dividends to 'members' instead of shareholders - everyone gets the same share then though. Now recruiting!
Fehz Combat and Mining Utility Inc. Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:37:00 - [20] I was once in a corp that would set the tax rate to 100% whenever there was supposed to be a big op so that no one would be off trying to rat while the rest of us defended their sorry butts..

TrippyX The Syndicate Inc	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:40:00 - [21] I don't think you can revoke shares. I've tried to find such an option for our shares because some are in hands of old characters but can't find an option. Afaik the only way for a corp to get shares it handed out back is for the shareholder to give/sell them back to the corp. (and if there is an option to revoke, please say how :))
Hitme Harder HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Fehz I was once in a corp that would set the tax rate to 100% whenever there was supposed to be a big op so that no one would be off trying to rat while the rest of us defended their sorry butts.. Thats actually a pretty good idea there. Because poasting on the forums is serious business.
Pac SubCom A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.17 16:52:00 - [23] Edited by: Pac SubCom on 17/01/2008 16:56:06 What you need are some grown up people who don't run away screaming "COMMUNISM BAD!!!" Communist Eve corporations are closer to real world corporations than "capitalist" eve corps. If most capital is owned by members, it's no corporation. Capitalist corps are a joint venture of independent operators, who all make their own money: It's more like a nation state, not a corporation, with a mutual defense agreement between citizens. Seems capitalism doesn't work either, in a world where everybody is a half-god. --------------- ∞ TQFE
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:00:00 - [24] 100% tax would work only in cases where the corporation is incredibly wealthy and can afford to buy battleship after battleship after battleship for it members. Such a corporation would have to have larger stock of t2 bpo's and good moon mining, pets, etc, to actually have enough money to do this on a large scale. It may be that a 100% taxes in such a case is not to give all your isk rewards from npcing to the corp, not for the corp to keep you from npcing altogether. Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 17/01/2008 16:56:06 What you need are some grown up people who don't run away screaming "COMMUNISM BAD!!!" Communist Eve corporations are closer to real world corporations than "capitalist" eve corps. If most capital is owned by members, it's no corporation. Capitalist corps are a joint venture of independent operators, who all make their own money: It's more like a nation state, not a corporation, with a mutual defense agreement between citizens. Seems capitalism doesn't work either, in a world where everybody is a half-god. agreeing with this post. Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Saashia Gallente "experament"? You fail. ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus?
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.01.17 18:32:00 - [27] Edited by: Re Mi on 17/01/2008 18:34:32 Dividends give lazy people benefits, and the people who actually did the work will have to support parasites. Unless you have investors, dividends seem pointless. The goal of most taxes is to put isk into productive assets like ships, BPO or stations and build your corp capabilities so that you can convert isk into military power, logistics support or production capacity, if you don't do that, taxes are pointless in a pvp context. edit Unless you are at war and need people fighting, not ratting. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Nethers School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.01.17 18:54:00 - [28] Edited by: Nethers on 17/01/2008 18:54:53 thats pure enslavement I dont like income taxes, Ron Paul for president
Seredith GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.17 18:56:00 - [29] stunning that people still consider 100% tax during 'mandatory' ops as useful in any manner. playing tin-pot dictator and swinging your e-peen at all your members results in people just not logging in, or logging in on neutral corp alts to make money. P.S. 100% tax doesn't work at other times like you want it to oh god stop trying.
Saashia Gallente Blackstar Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.17 19:31:00 - [30] Edited by: Saashia Gallente on 17/01/2008 19:34:12 Pac SubCom - I agree. I think on the whole, people have had good discussion here. Minus the trolls. And yes, most so-called capitalist corps in Eve are not at all. In REAL capialist corporations, you sign contracts giving up rights to ideas and inventions while in the employee of said corporation. Zathi - Shut up about spelling. Nothing make a person look more moronic than pointing out others spelling mistakes. You, sir, are that person!

Incy Taters BLACK SKY Exploration and Development Dark Matter Empire	Posted - 2008.01.17 20:04:00 - [31] Edited by: Incy Taters on 17/01/2008 20:08:26 Originally by: Saashia Gallente Selfishness is not a badge of honor. Thoughts? lol Ayn Rand Problem with your system is that there is competition. Why would I join a corp that will take all my income in the hopes that everyone else in the corp will not be keeping some of their income secret & will be earning as much as I do if not more? Answer is I wouldn't. I would join a corp that lets me keep my income so that I don't have to worry about what my corp mates are doing and how much they earning. Then again you could build the Berlin Wall once you get people in your corp so that they couldn't leave . . . P.S. Quote: In REAL capialist corporations, you sign contracts giving up rights to ideas and inventions while in the employee of said corporation. See here's the thing. In an efficient corporation, if you frequently generate good ideas that the corp then adopts and implements you tend to see more benefits (i.e. promotions, pay raises, etc). My experience in EVE has been that this is also the case in a good EVE corp. Crazy thing is if you don't get recognized for your contributions you tend to want to go elsewhere to another place you think will give you an appropriate amount of appreciation. Kinda like what people do in their careers in the real world.
Saashia Gallente Blackstar Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.17 20:41:00 - [32] Incy Taters - I don't think we are too far apart in thought. My reply to your first part would be, well if the corp is run well, you would make more money than doing it alone. It's easy to say, well what if the others don't do their part. That's not the issue we're talking about. Yes if some keep their dealings on the side, then the system is broken. But if everyone does their part, everyone benefits more than from being alone. For the second part, yes, that is what should be done for achievers. The example was, if you are working for company X in the real world (with few exceptions) one of the documents you signed to work there is that they retain rights to intellectual property. So while there, if you figure out a cure for cancer, they have grounds to try and claim that. Yes, you can fight it, but they still have the grounds. Another example would be working for a real estate agent. You agree to 6% commission on the sales you do. Now you could go off and sell houses on your own and keep more money, but any you sell at work, you only get the 6%. Then if your company found out you were wheelin and dealin on the side, they might get rid of you. The same would go for the 100% tax corp. If you're not pulling weight, to quote Trump, "You're fired".
Incy Taters BLACK SKY Exploration and Development Dark Matter Empire	Posted - 2008.01.17 21:03:00 - [33] Well of course the theory of it makes perfect sense. However, the problem with your theory is the same as the problem with Marxist theory. It doesn't take human nature into account.
Optimo Occassus Republica Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.18 07:32:00 - [34] Sounds pretty socialist
Stavro Mueller 2000 Corp	Posted - 2008.01.18 08:19:00 - [35] Evolution (SirMolle's corp in BoB) has a 95% tax rate. Your opinions of BoB aside, it seems to work...... Stav.
BigWhale Gallente TGB Foo Corp Dark Matter Empire	Posted - 2008.01.18 08:40:00 - [36] 100% tax works only where members are loyal and dedicated to corp ISK not their own ISK. Our corp provided most of the ships and equipment for our members, corp hangars are available to everyone. We used to have tax to 100% when we were mining and ratting in drone regions. Drone regions are perfect for this kind of stuff since most of the people don't have high refining skills to convert alloys&compounds into minerals and not all have the capability and patience to sell those and then profit. We used to mine and rat and once a month minerals were sold on the market, 50% of income was kept by the corp the rest was equally distributed among the members. Directors usually put money they got back on the corp account. So in the end more than 50% was left in the corp. Corporation provided everything for its members. From battleships to ammo and all modules/rigs that we could produce. Basically all T1 stuff. T2 modules/ships were bought on the market time to time and our hangar arrays were stocked with them. It worked for our small corp that was invite only mostly for people that we trusted and knew in real life. With bigger corps the problem is in trust, a member could always just take eveything. BPOs, minerals and such things were of course restricted. :) -- R, U & Y are letters, not words...
Pirokobo Caldari Orion Academy THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.01.22 15:48:00 - [37] True communism (which is what this amounts to, obviously) only works well if there's an objective. If every member of the corp was contributing to a common goal, then yes, I think a 100% tax could work. But not a nebulous, vague goal like holding space. No, like producing ships for corp members from a corp POS paid for out of the corp's money. If you had a group of dedicated players who need a steady supply of combat ships, and their goal is simply to supply themselves with ships to lose in battle and they can limit themselves to only a few ship designs, then yes I think a commune corp could work. Very efficiently for that matter.
Paladyn Griffith Gallente Phoenix Propulsion Labs Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.01.22 20:35:00 - [38] Edited by: Paladyn Griffith on 22/01/2008 20:35:53 I imagine that quite a few of those 100% tax rate corps are built by few players that have several alt characters. But I also know that the concept can and does work in-game. The premise is built on trust, that the corp leaders work in the best interest of the corp. With human nature thrown in, it might not be every penny, but the general direction the leaders take. The members of such a corp believe in the goals and direction the leadership claim, and they see measured progress toward those goals on a regular basis. This keeps their interest and desire to play actively going, and keeps the corp itself profitable for the members. As an example, suppose one of the "features" the corp offers is free ships and fittings for its members from corp hangars. Mission runners can collect loot and drop it into a corp hangar for all to take advantage of. Builders can skill up their chosen profession and build replacement ships for members to use, or for the corp to sell. Miners don't have to worry about mineral prices because they know that their efforts go directly into building the ships and modules they use. Obviously, if you are more concerned with your wallet than the corporations goals and direction, then this type of corp is not for you. If you want to choose your career in Eve, and concentrate on your abilities, instead of trying to learn mining and building and combat skills all at the same time, then you might take another look at what these types of corps can offer. Another advantage is that these corps likely suffer less "burnout". Players are not stuck in whatever path they have chosen. If you train just combat skills, and then get bored, you can change paths to manufacturing and build ships and modules. Get bored with that, you can try mining, or even go into researching or invention. All without having to change corps and start over again.
Alowishus mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.22 21:28:00 - [39] Edited by: Alowishus on 22/01/2008 21:28:43 Originally by: Zizzyx Edited by: Zizzyx on 17/01/2008 15:14:28 So everybody contributes 100% of their earnings to the common good, and then the fair and just (and reliable) leadership distributes the money to its members? That sure sounds like a great idea on paper, and as a matter of fact I'm surprised that no first-world countries have tried it... EDIT: In all seriousness, if a 100% tax worked for any period of time, one of the side effects would involve people working less because responsibility for their personal wealth is no longer squarely on their shoulders. It's more or less an unchangeable fact of human nature that a person works harder when it is either strictly or mostly for their benefit. Taxes should be set at a rate that allows a corporation/alliance to both pay operational expenses and also run a reasonable combat reimbursement program. Anything over that is just silly. This is nearly word-for-word what I would have posted. In the end a corp is better off with the most industrious people being richest rather than a large group of unmotivated people with mediocre wallets. The corp's combined wealth will be higher even if the distribution isn't even. /makes fart noise
UneFraiseDansUneChaise GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.22 22:07:00 - [40] As a rationally self-interested economic actor, I would like to state that Ayn Rand is terrible. I think most people would be reticent to entrust their entire source of income to a single individual. In addition, your system would pave the way for a lot of squabbling over what constitutes "contributing extra."

Maximillian Dragonard mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.22 22:57:00 - [41] Redistribution of MY wealth... lemme think here.... um.... NO.. Look at society as a whole and the plethora of parasites beginning to overwhelm the system..
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.22 23:00:00 - [42] For a corp focussed on PvP 100% tax can be good, it allows a central distribution of ships/mods without using trades. Also their members generally don't generally like to farm money anyways. 100% tax does mean you need to have some serious logistics backbone for your corporation though since you can't demand that your players will be supplying their own ships from empire. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Vactet SiK Elite The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.22 23:49:00 - [43] Just a interesting point of view...no speculation..practice. The corp I am a member, and director, of is a communist corporation in the sense that the tax is 100% and everyone works towards the goals of the corp in whatever their area is (Trade, Missions/Ratting, PVP, Production, Etc) The corp is rather new (Think we are still under 15 members), but one thing that makes it strong is that half of the members know each other in real life (Adds a certain extra reason not to get greedy...you'll be hurting your RL friends) and the others we have known for about 2 years. Trust is a definite issue. The members need to trust each other, trust the leadership, and trust that the corp will return the love in ways that it will help it. Everyone is out for themselves at some level, it is a basic human condition. The difference with a communist corp is this. For a capitalist corp the question is "How can the corp help ME" For a communist corp the question is "How can the corp help me help the corp?" I like this corp a lot so far, its by far the most rapidly successful one I have been in in all of my roughly 2 years of playing. Now before anyone says that a communist corp will never work in eve (A game fundamentally based on capitalism)..I have one corp to name to prove that wrong. Evolution. Hate bob, love bob, but recognize Evolution for its massive success as a communist corporation. The corp I am in is actually taking a lesson from Evo, and we are running our corp based on their example. Why? Do we want to be them? Thats so far off of the reason actually. The reason is they have a working business model that embraces communism and how long the corporation has been around is a testament to that. Anyways, back to the topic. Communism can work, but yes, it requires some odd measures. That whole shareholder thing is capitalistic to me personally, that does not happen in our corp. As i said, everything goes to the corp. Then say you need a skill? The corp gets it for you. Need a ship to fly along side your corp brethren? The corp gets it for you. Everything you do is for the benefit of the corp and the corp returns that to its members..equally. The concept of inequality is one that must not seep into the minds though or else problems will occur. As long as ALL members are contributing to the betterment of the corporation with everything they can...then all will be well. Just my 2cents from inside a communist corp. Some notes: 1)Ive been on both sides of this war, multiple times, so don't dare call me a 'Bober' or a 'Gooner'. I'm a player. I go where eve takes me. 2)Do i have a respect for BoB? Yeh, their track record in EVE has deserved it. 3)Id welcome someone from Evolution to post here to give more information on their corporation's workings. 4)Remember these views are mine. I'm not asking you to adopt them or embrace them, just recognize that they are my personal views. 5)No i did NOT read all of the thread. Sorry for repeating anything. Oh and yes...S!K Elite is recruiting. Delivering the kick to the jaw of society to stop it from drooling on itself like the ignorant slop it is since 1984. Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
Pirokobo Caldari Orion Academy THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.01.23 14:15:00 - [44] Edited by: Pirokobo on 23/01/2008 14:16:36 In some sense, communism really does make things a bit more efficient, especially for small corps running their own large POS. A communistic corp breaks out the work, so that several of the corp's industrialists each take responsibility for the provision of materials, the miners take responsibility of fuel, and the combat pilots bring in the money. As long as people are willing to apply themselves to the needs of the corp, they'll do well. It's almost like an investment, really, because eventually rewards will be reaped. However, in practice these things usually work out in capitalistic corps just as well. A midsized corp will already have a POS administrator, a freighter, and someone aspiring to fly a carrier or a rorq and has the track record to suggest they won't lose it. The only difference is that a corp driven by self-interest prevents labor falloffs, since each person is directly responsible for their own welfare, and are only trusted with corporate assets if they prove themselves up to the task.
Voltaire Leriel Minmatar BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.24 02:25:00 - [45] Edited by: Voltaire Leriel on 24/01/2008 02:33:41 BIG is a "share-all" corporatio, though we have 0% tax. There are no personal posessions or wealth in BIG. All members of BIG are expected to donate everything they have to the corp, isk and gear. In return we provide all of our members with everything they need to do whatever they want. Technically, every member of BIG must log off with only a shuttle in thier hanger and nothing else. This actualyl happens about 80% of the time. People who hoard modules, ships and isk are reminded of our sharing policy and they tend to comply when confronted about it. In general, the system works incredibly well. Everyone pitches in for the greater good, we're like a family. We're very tight knit because we share everything we do, from the top members to the newest recruits. BIG is like a second family for all of us in the corp. We care about what everyone in the corp does, because one person slacking off doesen't just hurt his wallet, it hurts everyone. I've been a member for over 4 years now, and I'm a director in the corp. The CEO, TornSoul, is a good friend of mine even though he's thousands of miles away. He actually flew from Denmark to the US for my wedding this summer and spent the week with me. We regularly attend FanFest as a large group and have a great time together. Some of our former members at FanFest actually perferred to hang out with us over thier new corps, because of how close we all were. The main constraint we run into is security. We have to be very careful who we let into the corp as there is alot of resources in one place. We also take measures to tuck certain very valuable items away in places that almost no one can access. Even though everything is shared, there are some things that are vital to the corporation's well being, that are trusted with only a handful of people. We do extensive background checks on all the members who join. We're very careful about the kinds of people we allow as well, people have to have the right mindset to enjoy thier time in BIG. We'll give most people a chance, but the senior members of BIG are quite an exclusive club of hard-core believer's in BIG's ideals. Ascending the ranks to gain more direct access to our collective resources can take much longer than in most corps. Promotions are based primarily on merit and trust, rather than seniority. The members who make it to the top tier, we call them "BIG'uns" are essentially BIG'uns for life. Because being a BIG'un isn't as much a rank as it is a special kind of person - a person who really "gets it." These people, though they have left the corp on occasion, still visit us every day in our chat rooms and remain good friends. Once a BIG'un, always a BIG'un. They're our extended family, and they are always welcome to return. The other major hurtle is apathy. If members are provided with everything they need for free, they sometimes have a hard time being motivated to do anything. But again, this is also tied into our rigorous selection process - we only accept applicants who we think will be motivated by placing the group's needs above thier own. Internally, we are much like communists, though our system of government is more like an oligarchy (a small circle of like-minded individuals that rule collectively). Externally, we are capitalists liek you wouldn't believe. We run many projects, all of which serve to enhance our image, increase our visibility, reinforce our brand name, or make us money. BIG makes more money in a month than many corps will make in thier lifetime, this is largely due to our sharing policy. Great things can be achieved when a group of like-minded individuals work together for a common ideal. _________________________________________________________ BIG Corporation Website
Vactet SiK Elite The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.24 02:47:00 - [46] Already sent a few ingame mails out about this, but figured I would go ahead and post this little idea here as well since I am sure there are more communist oriented corporations out there. I had this idea of making a chat channel for communist oriented corporations. The purpose would be to discuss implementation of communism in Eve, solving problems that occur with such, and generally helping each other make communism in our respective corporations work better. Now obviously..there is a war going on and this causes a problem with the fact that there are communist corps on each side of the war. So there would be a standing rule that no corporation/alliance tactical information be discussed at all, or anything about the war. Just a concept and would enjoy feedback to see all who would be interested in such a thing. Feel free to mail me ingame. Delivering the kick to the jaw of society to stop it from drooling on itself like the ignorant slop it is since 1984. Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
Voltaire Leriel Minmatar BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.24 04:22:00 - [47] Edited by: Voltaire Leriel on 24/01/2008 04:24:36 As for the OP, just splitting up earnings isn't really sharing, it's just profit sharing. BIG doesen't do that. All profits go to the corp wallet and the leaders decide where it is distributed, usually reinvesting and giving our members what they need to play the game the way they want. And BIG isn't communist really, we still have an internal hierarchy. The top members make decisions and the CEO has veto power over anything. He acts as a dictator who is mostly hands-off. The directors tend to make all the decisions without much interferance. We are by no means democratic, or communist. As for when people leave, we offer a sort of severance package. It isn't meant to be equal to what people put in, or even comprise of anything that was donated. Things donated to the corp become corp property. Instead, it's simply a package to help the member get started on thier new life outside of BIG. We have a trial period in the beginning where sharing isn't enforced as strictly, just to let people get the feel for how it works. But once you buy into the system by donating all your worldy posessions, you're promoted to being a full member. We also don't allow our members to have alts in other corporations. We don't recruit the character, we recruit the person. That person must be invested 100% into our corp or they aren't really welcome. Otherwise they could share with thier BIG characters and spend time on other characters making private fortunes. That just isn't the kind of person we want - no one in BIG craves personal wealth. We keep tabs on all our member's characters using API codes. Granted, people can have second accounts, but we also do extensive background checks to uncover such accounts. So far we've never had any problems with this, we've never found someone who has joined the corp has a secret second account. _________________________________________________________ BIG Corporation Website
Pirokobo Caldari Orion Academy THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:26:00 - [48] So.... correct me if I'm wrong. What I get from this is that BIG has no POSes, no capitals, and none of their ships will have rigs of any kind. Right?
Voltaire Leriel Minmatar BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:00:00 - [49] Originally by: Pirokobo So.... correct me if I'm wrong. What I get from this is that BIG has no POSes, no capitals, and none of their ships will have rigs of any kind. Right? Wrong, wrong and wrong... What would make you think that? _________________________________________________________ BIG Corporation Website
Pirokobo Caldari Orion Academy THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:11:00 - [50] Edited by: Pirokobo on 24/01/2008 17:12:41 Originally by: Voltaire Leriel Wrong, wrong and wrong... What would make you think that? Well, if you have to return all assets to the corp on logout then presumably you would repackage any ships you "checked out", drop them back in the corp hangar. Return any POS components you were using and then the tower, and of course since you can't dock a Mom to put it in a corp hangar... It was jest of course, but my point is that there are some things in the game where "share and share alike" simply isn't technically possible.

TornSoul BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:49:00 - [51] Originally by: Pirokobo I'm not gunning at BIG. It's just an observation that while they may be a very communistic society, they still aren't the marxian ideal commune. Wisely so too, since true communism discounts the fact that people (and avatars) are not made equal. I'll let Volt do the talking here - But I'll just add that : BIG isn't trying to approach or simulate any kind of RL ideology. The approach we have chosen, simply happens to remind of some. Some more than others. And often, those ideologies are used as examples to illustrate some part(s) of BIG to give people a better understanding about how we go about things - Which isnt't the same as us striving "to be" like that. Just to clarify BIG Lottery [url=
Is forporn THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:53:00 - [52] Communism, in my corp?
Voltaire Leriel Minmatar BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.25 01:26:00 - [53] Edited by: Voltaire Leriel on 25/01/2008 01:32:51 Edited by: Voltaire Leriel on 25/01/2008 01:29:25 Originally by: Pirokobo Well, if you have to return all assets to the corp on logout then presumably you would repackage any ships you "checked out", drop them back in the corp hangar. Return any POS components you were using and then the tower, and of course since you can't dock a Mom to put it in a corp hangar... POS structures aren't being used by any one member, they're the corp's property. So an individual might set up a starbase, but it's the corps property. Everything that POS produces goes into the corp hangers, to be used for projects or sold or whatever. It's the responsibility of the corp as a whole to keep the POSes running, though certain members may be assigned to work on a specific pos. Ships aren't repackaged as they're corp insured, and some have rigs. Sometimes people put thier names on a ship so that they know which one they fitted, we also give them descriptive names so you know generally how a ship is fitted. But putting your name on it doesen't make it yours or garantee that others won't use it if they have to. Most people will unpack a new ship before touching one with a name on it. We share our many cap ships between members. As for super caps, that's a slight exception to the rules. Those ships are essentially corp property that are "signed out" to a specific member. They're using it on our behalf, but it isn't thiers. An interresting difference between my corp and Vactet's is that they only share the things that a player has aquired since they joined, any personal wealth created before joining is kept personal. Since all new money and items would go to the corp, a person would eventually run out of personal wealth and begin to rely completely on the corp, though this could take a long time. That is where BIG differs the most from his corp - new members are given a trial period to see if they like the corp and if they feel they are ready to commit to us, they are expected to donate all personal wealth to the corp. They are then promoted to being full members, it's sort of a right of passage or a leap of faith. During the trial period, we still provide them with everything they need free of charge, within reason. New players to EVE find the transition much easier than older members who have spent alot of time on thier own already (even if they're in corp already). But we've had some success stories of veteran players joining with a good bit of welath and finding a good home with us. I know alot of you here would think this is insane, for a corp to expect someone to donate all thier worldly posessions to thier corp, but BIG isn't for everyone. We don't expect every person in EVE to either understand us or be able to join us. We're quite a special group, and I don't think you'd find any corp in the game that works and lives like we do. And that's one of the reasons people join us, because we're different. _________________________________________________________ BIG Corporation Website
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.25 05:10:00 - [54] Personally i think a communistic/socialistic corp can work, but it takes a lot more work from the director and ceo level to make it work. Having coherent goals and a combined strategy alows corporations to take advantage of greater returns to scale. 30 people running their own moon mining operation is inherently less efficient than that same system being run at a corporate level for the corporate interest, the logistics get easier, reactions get done and more profit is had, etc. Furthermore, someone who run a personal pos needs roles for fueling and emptying silos, with a dedicated and trusted pos crew this gets easier and more secure. When it comes to production, its more efficient to have one corp set of bpo's to build from that everyone has access to than to have multiple sets of bpo's for each builder. At 500+ mil for a bs bpo the extra capital adds up fast. With combined resources, its much more doable for the corporation to buy a t2 bpo or capital ship bpo than it is for an individual. I could go on, but i already have a wall of text, and i think the point is made about as well as i can.
Iron Wraith	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:51:00 - [55] first up i'd better explain my newbie corpness. i've just come back to the game so i'm not in a corp while i find my feet again. alliance wise i started with freelance assassins in 3FA, stayed in 3FA by moving to white star consortium, stayed with 3FA by joining LFC, followed LFC when LFC joined LV, then decided i needed to swing a sword and left eve for a while. this is my main and i am not trying to hide my identity. sorry forum mods for my lack of corp and alliance, i hope my brief history will allow me to join in on this discussion. now, to the topic. great thread . for the OP's idea of a 100% corp tax, assuming lack of trust isnt an issue. i cant see how members going about their daily solo isk earning business will earn more isk as a group then the would alone. putting aside the problems with one player having a faster way to earn isk, this is a thought experiment after all so we can assume some hard to reach perfections. lets assume each member earns the same X isk per hour when solo. if you have 30 members thats 30X per hour, so a dividend of X isk per hour come pay day. there is therefore no point in the corp members doing solo work as they would never get more isk from being in the corporation. so, for the corp to work the members would have to work together to earn more than X isk per hour. a classic example is a mining opp, with a dedicated hauler the rocks can be bled dry faster giving more isk per hour than is the players were to solo mine. also with missions, flying in 2 man teams, one tank and one gank, would shorten completion times to give more iks/hr than the players could achieve solo, also a dedicated salvage and loot team could support several mission running duo's. it is an interesting idea but i believe it would only work if the members can find ways to earn isk faster as a group then they could on their own, otherwise there is no benefit to being in the corp. well, aside from friendship, but that would be irrelevant of the 100% tax thing. as mentioned many times this all hinges in trust and a players ability to not put him self first (by letting the others do all the work). of course its very hard to determine who is not working hard and who is not capable of earning as fast. some characters and professions are just not as capable of pulling in the same isk/hr of other characters and professions. also player skill should be factored in, some players can work faster than others. i think the important thing is to be able to determine who is not putting the effort in. thats the key, the players have to put effort in to making the most of their ability to earn. which in turn makes monitoring a players contribution very difficult, how do you monitor effort when all you can see is output? also thanks for the other examples of real eve corps with a different way of working. its been an interesting thread to read. i dont know if i could log off with just a shuttle in my assets, i like my shiny ships too much. i know of BIG as a reputable corp who look into making isk in new ways, eg the BIG lottery, ways that the devs may never have expected to see in their game. so its interesting to hear about how BIG works behind the scenes. and who can question the dedication of their members when their CEO can drink till 6AM at an eve meet Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots: [2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage.
Pirokobo Caldari Orion Academy THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.01.25 13:57:00 - [56] Edited by: Pirokobo on 25/01/2008 13:57:27 Originally by: Voltaire Leriel I know alot of you here would think this is insane, for a corp to expect someone to donate all thier worldly posessions to thier corp, but BIG isn't for everyone. We don't expect every person in EVE to either understand us or be able to join us. We're quite a special group, and I don't think you'd find any corp in the game that works and lives like we do. And that's one of the reasons people join us, because we're different. It doesn't sound all that crazy. Actually it's sounds pretty monastic.
Kelban Kevar	Posted - 2008.01.30 03:40:00 - [57] sounds alot like how some place's in the real world all ready run there biz.....commisions.
RogerWilco Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.30 05:39:00 - [58] If everyone have the same goals, does it matter who holds the wallet? i know of several other very succesful corporations that also run by a communistic or semi communistic style.
Rowejob Gallente Explora Empire STELLAR LEGION	Posted - 2008.01.30 21:14:00 - [59] I thought Communism was dead. Just to come back in EVE...lol. Now look at all of the corps and find out what style of government they represent.


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