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Solving blobing without nerfing

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Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:29:00 - [1] Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 22/01/2008 19:30:49 (edited for clarity & typo's) The idea is that rather than trying to "fix blobing" by fiddling with what is already there, add something extra to make combat a little less 1 dimensional. I.e. a 2nd dimention (duh) The extra dimension I talk of is tactical environments: Imagine there is something like effects on ewar or speed or other things that affect combat and "carbear" activities. Across a system or constellation it is analogous to terrain in RL combat. Then you get varying and constantly changing strengths or different effects in different systems and areas within a system. This is the "weather". So you plan tactics to take advantage of the terrain but the weather on the day can completely mess that up if really severe. That way you just don't get generalised setup roaving gangs (such as nanogangs) and you have to have truely balanced fleets, with small gangs who use the environment to their advantage able to take on homogeneous setup fleets where atm they would just get out blobbed Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists Recruiting
Naridos Caldari IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:31:00 - [2] sounds like a good idea... but weather in space? I mean its a nice idea but adding stuff to the environment wont help anything if there is a blob war going on. Quote: Pandas are the PWN of Eve. Pandas!
Bronwolff LeCroix	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:34:00 - [3] I belive he is talking about things such as meteor showers, Dust clouds and such screwing with ships in space not weather.
Naridos Caldari IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:35:00 - [4] Yes i understand that part but the fact that you are adding more to the environment means more things for your PC to load and more stress on the visual aspect on the system. That just adds to the lagfest of blob wars. Quote: Pandas are the PWN of Eve. Pandas!
Haurian Commando Gallente Cursed Souls Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:36:00 - [5] still not going to stop blob tactics in the war down south, especially as goons NEED to blob to be effective --- beer for anyone who mods this sig!
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Naridos sounds like a good idea... but weather in space? I mean its a nice idea but adding stuff to the environment wont help anything if there is a blob war going on. Solar wind () () (â;..;)â (")(")
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium	Posted - 2008.01.22 19:50:00 - [7] Guess I was more thinking in response to this thread and the medium sized homogeneous fleets (nano-gang fleets being the flavour of the month in that respect atm) This is rather than the giga-blobing at the highest level of alliance fleet combat, which is a different sort of problem, one that stems from the dynamics of large scale strategic combat. Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists Recruiting
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.22 20:07:00 - [8] The idea of shifting environmental effects is an interesting one, but Im not clear as to how you envisage these effects reducing players concentrating their forces? The problem in my view is that most players do not think strategicaly in fleet warfare, have no reason to do so and have no tools to do so. The only static objects that exist that could be potential targets to a fleet which splits up (e.g to strike targets in systems X,Y and Z) are POS's, which are so resilient that they will survive long enough for a defence force to arrive. For example if Alliance A splits its fleet to attack POSs in systems X, Y and Z is far more sensible for the defending alliance to blob up a large fleet and destroy the attackers sequentialy. Until CCP introduces limited objectives which can be attacked simultaneously (and thus widen the battle field beyond one system) then there will be no incentive to divide a force. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.22 20:29:00 - [9] Under current game mechanics. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FIX BLOBBING! IT CANNOT BE DONE! I have thought about this for a long time. Its just not possible. You either need something that destroys blobs, yet not small gangs. I dunno how you can do such a thing. Titans are not the answer. Neither are stealth bombers. As long as people CAN bring more, they WILL bring more. period. The only sure fire way I see to fix blobbing is to lock a constelation to a max ammount of ship numbers. Notice I didnt say system. Constellation. Otherwise you will just have 2-300 people sitting on a gate waiting to jump in as soon as they can. As someone mentioned above. Until there is a way to make a reason to split up your numbers among multiple objectives, people wont do it. _________________________________
Chemical Castration Chemical Castration Lotto	Posted - 2008.01.22 20:33:00 - [10] How about... a weapon that shoots a bolt of lightning that jumps to the next person within 20km (except people who are ganged) and does 2x damage jump, but only hits each person once... :D So first shot is like 100, second 200, third 400, fifth 800, etc. etc. etc. Yes, I know, stupid, I'm just bored. And it would be funny as hell to watch. Info on current and past lottos + mini-guides
Naridos Caldari IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.22 20:46:00 - [11] Unless you can think of a ship or a solution to breaking up blobs like said above, there is no solution to fixing the problem. Quote: Pandas are the PWN of Eve. Pandas!
Mavrix Able Black Avatar Hexad	Posted - 2008.01.22 20:51:00 - [12] Spoon, here are 17 lovely forum pages to dig trough on the topic, Devs are reading that thread so why not throw your suggestion in the end of the line if they have not been suggested already. -NWS/Mav
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.22 21:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Chemical Castration How about... a weapon that shoots a bolt of lightning that jumps to the next person within 20km (except people who are ganged) and does 2x damage jump, but only hits each person once... :D So first shot is like 100, second 200, third 400, fifth 800, etc. etc. etc. Yes, I know, stupid, I'm just bored. And it would be funny as hell to watch. Not stupid. Either you're relatively brilliant, or you read Ender's Game. This was an amazing weapon called something like "The Little Doctor". Anyways, you'd deploy it on a blob and it would continue like dominoes, eventually passing to all other members of the blob. Very effective way to hit everyone in a blob in a single hit. Not sure if or how it would work in Eve, but as an idea of a weapon to break up blobs, yes. My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.22 21:04:00 - [14] Portal Storms
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.22 21:09:00 - [15] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis Not stupid. Either you're relatively brilliant, or you read Ender's Game. This was an amazing weapon called something like "The Little Doctor". Anyways, you'd deploy it on a blob and it would continue like dominoes, eventually passing to all other members of the blob. Very effective way to hit everyone in a blob in a single hit. Not sure if or how it would work in Eve, but as an idea of a weapon to break up blobs, yes. You're referring to the Molecular Disruption Device (a.k.a. M.D. Device, which lead to it's nickname, "Doctor Device") that would create a self-propagating shockwave that deconstructs objects on the molecular level. ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
azura nester White Shadow Imperium	Posted - 2008.01.22 21:38:00 - [16] there are those wonderful things called stealth bombers....that launch bombs...that do AOE damage....cap neutralising bombs work great btw
Aknot Wat Gallente Carbide Industries	Posted - 2008.01.22 21:45:00 - [17] As I posted before. Add a self destruct option to player ships that actually does some damage. Like on Star Trek when a warp core goes critical. Not only could this "clear" out some ships it also makes Pirating far more engaging if when you go to pop a ship or take it there's a chance the player has activated a self destruct that's gonna blast everything within 20km with 30,000HP of THERM damage. (course you could pop his ship before it cycles down to go boom and avoid this) Still the gamble and risk would be fun. Players may not always leave in their pod. They might chose to stay in the ship as it self destructs so you can't just count on seeing a pod popping out as a warning. BAD A$$! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please let us chose the old ship voice as an option.
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.01.22 21:46:00 - [18] If you want to dissuade "blobs" and only have small gangs in-game, then everything has to be re-tuned to be destroyable by a small gang. ... yeah, ok. Besides, AoE doesn't dissuade blobbing. Do Doomsdays dissuade big fleets from forming? No. You just evade the DD and re-form / re-blob. But it still comes down to the fact that that Titan can't be destroyed by a small gang.
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium	Posted - 2008.01.22 23:59:00 - [19] Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 23/01/2008 00:01:46 Originally by: Mavrix Able Spoon, here are 17 lovely forum pages to dig trough on the topic, Devs are reading that thread so why not throw your suggestion in the end of the line if they have not been suggested already. -NWS/Mav Observe the date that thread was started. This thread is partly a "bump / hint" that this subject years on from when it was first forwarded by devs and the community has still not seen the light of day 20/06/2005 ? Did ya read that thread? I posted in it iirc about 6 months ago --- The point is that there is a second dimension to just fleet numbers in a fight. Sure a 5 man gang isn't going to beat 50, but they might beat 15, if they know the terrain and take the opportunity of a bad ion storm or something as their chance to strike Right now, any gang of 5 no matter how good the pilots and ships and how poor the opposition will almost certainly lose barring complete incompetence from the 15 man side Also it makes roaving gangs think twice about just using some generic setup, and if they fly 3 regions away set up for the environment there, they may get sunk in the in-between Also it just gives a little character to the Eve universe. Atm you could be in Delve or in Tribute and it doesn't matter in the slightest, the only difference is in who you are fighting Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists Recruiting
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.01.23 00:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Turin Under current game mechanics. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FIX BLOBBING! IT CANNOT BE DONE! I have thought about this for a long time. Its just not possible. You either need something that destroys blobs, yet not small gangs. I dunno how you can do such a thing. Titans are not the answer. Neither are stealth bombers. As long as people CAN bring more, they WILL bring more. period. The only sure fire way I see to fix blobbing is to lock a constelation to a max ammount of ship numbers. Notice I didnt say system. Constellation. Otherwise you will just have 2-300 people sitting on a gate waiting to jump in as soon as they can. As someone mentioned above. Until there is a way to make a reason to split up your numbers among multiple objectives, people wont do it. Locking speed penalty based on gang size? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Raygin Sunflare Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.23 00:24:00 - [21] Originally by: Chemical Castration How about... a weapon that shoots a bolt of lightning that jumps to the next person within 20km (except people who are ganged) and does 2x damage jump, but only hits each person once... :D So first shot is like 100, second 200, third 400, fifth 800, etc. etc. etc. Yes, I know, stupid, I'm just bored. And it would be funny as hell to watch. Interesting idea. My sugestion would be to create a new weapon for capital ships. This high slot module would act as a nos based smartbomb. When activated the module drains a small amount of cap from all ships in range then redirects and fires the energy. I'll throw out some numbers for example these can be tweaked for balance. Range = 50-100km? Cycle time = 30 sec Base damage = 10 multiplier = 5% (per ship in range) Power and cpu requiremts for capital+ ships. Now for the numbers 1 ship in range 10.5 damage 20 ships 26.5 damage on each ship 50 ships 115 damage (>200 total dps output from module) 100 ships 1315 damage 150 ships 15079 damage I would also recommend a hard cap on damage output maybe 15k just so a lucky shot on a group of 250+ doesn't wipe everyone out.(250 ships would be almost 2m damage) for those interested in trying out other base and % damage combinations the formula is: 1.05^#ships * base damage. This would leave titans DD useful for fleets >100 where it would take 25+ capitals firing modules all at once to equal a DD. But if you caught an enemy gang with 150+ just 3 capitals jumping in could hit like a DD. Comments positive and negative are welcome. Thanks, Raygin http://www.voogru.com/images/signature/farmers.jpg
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.23 00:24:00 - [22] rainbows lollipops and gummidrops all that a carebear needs Trashed sig, Shark was here
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.23 00:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Turin Under current game mechanics. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FIX BLOBBING! IT CANNOT BE DONE! I have thought about this for a long time. Its just not possible. You either need something that destroys blobs, yet not small gangs. I dunno how you can do such a thing. Titans are not the answer. Neither are stealth bombers. As long as people CAN bring more, they WILL bring more. period. The only sure fire way I see to fix blobbing is to lock a constelation to a max ammount of ship numbers. Notice I didnt say system. Constellation. Otherwise you will just have 2-300 people sitting on a gate waiting to jump in as soon as they can. As someone mentioned above. Until there is a way to make a reason to split up your numbers among multiple objectives, people wont do it. Locking speed penalty based on gang size? How?? You could just divide your fleet into 'x' number of gangs but keep them all co-located. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.01.23 00:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Raygin Sunflare Originally by: Chemical Castration How about... a weapon that shoots a bolt of lightning that jumps to the next person within 20km (except people who are ganged) and does 2x damage jump, but only hits each person once... :D So first shot is like 100, second 200, third 400, fifth 800, etc. etc. etc. Yes, I know, stupid, I'm just bored. And it would be funny as hell to watch. Interesting idea. My sugestion would be to create a new weapon for capital ships. This high slot module would act as a nos based smartbomb. When activated the module drains a small amount of cap from all ships in range then redirects and fires the energy. I'll throw out some numbers for example these can be tweaked for balance. Range = 50-100km? Cycle time = 30 sec Base damage = 10 multiplier = 5% (per ship in range) Power and cpu requiremts for capital+ ships. Now for the numbers 1 ship in range 10.5 damage 20 ships 26.5 damage on each ship 50 ships 115 damage (>200 total dps output from module) 100 ships 1315 damage 150 ships 15079 damage I would also recommend a hard cap on damage output maybe 15k just so a lucky shot on a group of 250+ doesn't wipe everyone out.(250 ships would be almost 2m damage) for those interested in trying out other base and % damage combinations the formula is: 1.05^#ships * base damage. This would leave titans DD useful for fleets >100 where it would take 25+ capitals firing modules all at once to equal a DD. But if you caught an enemy gang with 150+ just 3 capitals jumping in could hit like a DD. Comments positive and negative are welcome. Thanks, Raygin Again this wouldnt work - straight away I thought "right, Ill get my buddies to bring along a pile of alts in noob ships/frigates to max out the DD damage". Bringing 'bigger guns' doesnt solve the issue even using an inverse law like your own to calculate damage. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2008.01.23 00:30:00 - [25] Yeah combat in eve is nothing like RL which annoys me. In RL I like to hide my giant space ship in foxholes and behind bushes and I think eve would be much better if it supported this. Also why dont we limit the size of fleets? To 50? 30? Then you need at least a few semi competent FCs giving warp ins and the like to blob... now its generally 3-4 competent people leading a blob of complete ******s who just align to where the broadcast is and shoot the primary. The only reason this wouldnt work is because 30 people cant kill a pos, and pos's are everything right now. Hint hint.
Ghostwarden	Posted - 2008.01.23 01:28:00 - [26] In deference to the OP and the other posters here....I dont believe that it is possible to "fix" blobbing without making it difficult for the players to "call primary". The only suggestions that I've seen that could accomplish this are to have a build up of "natural ECM" based on the number of ships targeting a single ship or to make the communication of which ship to target impossible by removing ship/player names from the overvier. With that said....I do think that it might be possible to give players other options on how to conduct hostilities. First, give us multiple points of egress into a system....instead of jumping into a system at a static gate give the players the choice to warp to a number of points (the jump gate, the primary planet or planets ect. That way if your going to blob an incomming fleet you will have to watch multiple places and react to where and when the oposing fleet jumps in. POS warefare, from what I've seen and read is most likely always going to be handled with a blob because its easier. The second thing would be to make all of the objects alread in space (like asteroids, other ships or stations) interrupt direct fire weapons. This however is going to put futher strain on the server and so I dont know if it is feseable or not. Just my 2 Cents worth. Ghost
Raygin Sunflare Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.23 04:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Chemical Castration Again this wouldnt work - straight away I thought "right, Ill get my buddies to bring along a pile of alts in noob ships/frigates to max out the DD damage". Bringing 'bigger guns' doesnt solve the issue even using an inverse law like your own to calculate damage. C. I had considered this as well, thats why I added the 15k max damage for 150+ ships. Even if the FC was pushing his luck and had 100 ships in one location you would need to bring 50 alts in frigs to get max effect which is neither an easy or cost effective tactic. When the first module fired most if not all the T1 alts would be wiped out reducing the ships in the area to the original gang numbers. The fist shot could be artificialy boosted but at the 15k damage hard cap even a 60% damage resist will only recieve 4500 damage, for most BS setups this barely scratches the paint. Now your left with 50 dead alts and several capital ships (doing relativly low dps) sitting in tne middle of an angry 100 man gang. The only time the weapon has DD like effect is when you have 150+ equally well tanked ships, and several capitals attacking all at once. Once the weaker tanked ships start poping the ship count drops and the damage from any further capitals firing is reduced quickly. I realize this won't prevent 600 in local you'll still have multiple FC's running 100 man groups all over the system but you wont see 200+ sitting at a gate. Raygin http://www.voogru.com/images/signature/farmers.jpg
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.01.23 04:23:00 - [28] Originally by: Haurian Commando still not going to stop blob tactics in the war down south, especially as goons NEED to blob to be effective Where did you get your degree for being an armchair general?
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.01.23 04:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Ghostwarden In deference to the OP and the other posters here....I dont believe that it is possible to "fix" blobbing without making it difficult for the players to "call primary". Heh heh heh, Fog of War!!!1111one You shoot into the darkness, maybe you hit an important ship.
Arturus Vex	Posted - 2008.01.23 05:03:00 - [30] Blobbing isn't broken. It makes perfect sense that both sides would bring as many pilots as possible. The server not handling blobs is the problem. The majority of these solutions are either counter-intuitive (reducing damage as number of pilots increases? wtf?)Or potentially game unbalancing (blobbing is partially a result of caps and Supercaps, you need those 200 pilots in BS to even having a chance at breaking the a capitol spider tank). Adding in damaging ship collisions and turret line of sight may be a possible solution (also might give tactical reasons to retreat to asteroid belts and the like). But then you have the problem of people being able to take down cap fleets at all. On top of this, we have people suggesting more forms of the doomsday, which really doesn't do much other than to restrict battles to capitol ships.

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