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Why i believe motherships should have more highslots.

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Auron Shadowbane Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 12:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Troye Motherships have 25 fighters which would take 5 high slots, goddamn n00b! Originally by: Troye way more tank which inr eality means 1 more tanking slot. That is a HUGHE difference and you can fit your 4th stacking nerved resist mod or a 3rd repair you dont have cap for... ew imunity, damage (up to 20 fighters realsitically which is two carriers) and possibility of up to 6 gang links is what makes them worth the tag or not. 2 more highs on the other hand wouldnt hurt. not like 2 more fighters, smartbombs or neuts could make a 18bil ship overpowered. if there were capital siced neuts or smartbombs (not doomsday, just capital siced smartbomb with 15-20km ish range and 2000-3000damage) highslots would be a balancing issue but not with bs mods.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.24 12:16:00 - [32] The op is very well written and I cannot find fault in the proposal. Sounds reasonable, so I agree. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Alyth Gallente Dichotomy	Posted - 2008.01.24 12:33:00 - [33] Originally by: Auron Shadowbane Originally by: Troye Motherships have 25 fighters which would take 5 high slots, goddamn n00b! Originally by: Troye way more tank which inr eality means 1 more tanking slot. That is a HUGHE difference and you can fit your 4th stacking nerved resist mod or a 3rd repair you dont have cap for... ew imunity, damage (up to 20 fighters realsitically which is two carriers) and possibility of up to 6 gang links is what makes them worth the tag or not. 2 more highs on the other hand wouldnt hurt. not like 2 more fighters, smartbombs or neuts could make a 18bil ship overpowered. if there were capital siced neuts or smartbombs (not doomsday, just capital siced smartbomb with 15-20km ish range and 2000-3000damage) highslots would be a balancing issue but not with bs mods. You make a good point there with the gang mods thing, something I forgot about entirely. Yet another thing to add to the already large list of 'very useful things to carry but can't without gimping myself'. I'd love to be able to fit a couple of gangmods if I have a mothership, but again the choice between what to fit is pretty much predetermined with the current slot layouts. -------------------------------------------
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.24 12:42:00 - [34] Originally by: Alyth You make a good point there with the gang mods thing, something I forgot about entirely. Yet another thing to add to the already large list of 'very useful things to carry but can't without gimping myself'. I'd love to be able to fit a couple of gangmods if I have a mothership, but again the choice between what to fit is pretty much predetermined with the current slot layouts. I intended to dedicate an entire paragraph to the wasted bonus that is the gangmod thing on moms, but thought the logistics example alone would be enough. But yes, you worded it exactly right: "I'd love to be able to fit a couple of gangmods if I have a mothership, but again the choice between what to fit is pretty much predetermined with the current slot layouts."
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2008.01.24 13:18:00 - [35] The cloak is not only mandatory for strategical reasons, it is vital for being able to log out of the game safely in systems without friendly POS. The two ship classes that can hold a mothership down are interdictors and heavy interdictors. The defenses available against them are smartbombs and neutralizers in conjunction with fighters. One smartbomb will destroy bubbles, but not interdictors themselves. For practical reasons a minimum of two, often preferrably three are required. Moms can't use triage because it's practically the kill me while I sit here and do nothing button, so no worries trying to fit one of those. ECM Burst is pretty much useless aswell because it only breaks lock, it does not jam for any amount of time. A ridiculous pre-nerfed supposedly unique and marginally useful piece of *****s, really. And the same pretty much applies to clone vat bay aswell; incredibly impractical. So, that leaves us remote assistance and gang mods. Circlejerk tanking is one of the main reasons carriers or motherships would be worth flying in the first place, so not using at least one remote repper/xfer is pretty daft. Especially when most of the time those ships will be sitting at stations or POS' repairing them. And since mom tanking is only marginally better than carrier tanking which isn't that great without triage, the need for remote assistance is comparable to a paralyzed granny. So then we're left with one little piggy who couldn't decide whether it wanted to be a gang mod, a second xfer or neut or a third smartie. It wanted to be a gang mod because it thought motherships were supposed to be like super flagships with nber bonuses to the fleet. But why bother when command ships actually get bonuses for the modules, and its much more useful to assign booster to one of them with several gang mods than your puny unbonused one. So, in conclusion, some bloody incentives for those modules would be appreciated. Another highslot wouldn't hurt, but it's far from sufficient a solution. --- CEO**
Charlie Seriya Gallente Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.24 13:53:00 - [36] I agree that Motherships need changes that include some kind of buff, and an extra high slot or two would be one step towards this. However, I disagree with the notion that you have some kind of right to a free cloak. Additionally, Energy Neutralisers should be handled by your gangmates. By fitting a Neut you're trying to make the ship interdictor-proof solo, which should come at a price. Still, the mothership needs something else. 3% bonus to effectiveness of all warfare links per level? Maybe even 5%, giving you a reason to field it as a gang booster over a command ship. Or giving the Remote ECM Burst a jam duration (5 secs? More? The reactivation delay keeps in in check.) Honeslty, how much use is that module right now? I'm not saying they should have more roles, and I'm not saying that nothing should be taken away from them in turn, but they really ought to be focused to be the absolute best at -something- to justify the immense investment and risk in fielding one.
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:16:00 - [37] 1. Remove the bonus to remote reps and triage modules, having these on an ECM-proof ship is bad when facing massed MS. Motherships should rely on specialised logistics ships for support, not other motherships. 2. Buff to eight hi-slots, no change to other slots. This encourages more gang mods or point defense weapons like smartbombs and neuts. 3. Buff Remote ECM burst with various scripts to give it a more useful effect. Right now this module does not justify deploying a mothership in a fleet fight, largely due to its high cooldown time and very brief effect. 4. Fix clone vats to allow two-way clone jumps and the ability to set of medical clones to any corp office. 5. Increase ship maintainence bay capacity to better support the clone bay. 6. Buff tanking ability slightly, either in the form of increased overall HP or rep bonus per level. 7. Introduce new logistics fighters only usable by motherships. These can be assigned to support sub-capital fleet ships in order to assist their cap, tank or ewar capabilities. Logistics fighters double in effectiveness when their mothership is on the same grid. You now have a vessel that justifies its position in direct battle, can support a corp in a 'flagship' role away from battle, and can defend itself from smaller threats while needing a varied support fleet against larger targets.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:42:00 - [38] Originally by: xttz 1. Remove the bonus to remote reps and triage modules, having these on an ECM-proof ship is bad when facing massed MS. Motherships should rely on specialised logistics ships for support, not other motherships. 2. Buff to eight hi-slots, no change to other slots. This encourages more gang mods or point defense weapons like smartbombs and neuts. 3. Buff Remote ECM burst with various scripts to give it a more useful effect. Right now this module does not justify deploying a mothership in a fleet fight, largely due to its high cooldown time and very brief effect. 4. Fix clone vats to allow two-way clone jumps and the ability to set of medical clones to any corp office. 5. Increase ship maintainence bay capacity to better support the clone bay. 6. Buff tanking ability slightly, either in the form of increased overall HP or rep bonus per level. 7. Introduce new logistics fighters only usable by motherships. These can be assigned to support sub-capital fleet ships in order to assist their cap, tank or ewar capabilities. Logistics fighters double in effectiveness when their mothership is on the same grid. You now have a vessel that justifies its position in direct battle, can support a corp in a 'flagship' role away from battle, and can defend itself from smaller threats while needing a varied support fleet against larger targets. /me sets goonswarm +5 for this post only
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:18:00 - [39] no they are fine like they are now they dont need a boost Trashed sig, Shark was here
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.24 23:28:00 - [40] Originally by: SiJira no they are fine like they are now they dont need a boost I might care more for your opinion if you 1) told me who you were 2) told me what your experience with them is 3) told me in more than one line

Bertn Erney	Posted - 2008.01.24 23:40:00 - [41] triage is worthless in battle, the only reason to fit the module is for the targets controlled bonus it gives, think its something like 4 extra targets or what not. cloak.... well unless you plan to smartbomb lowsec I would say drop the damn cloak and fly with support fleets..... Cloak is very useless unless you are planning on operating for very extended periods in enemy space and even then its still easy to get in trouble relying on one. in large scale fights I know the remote repping of the motherships is incredibly valuable to other carriers on the field, because it is guaranteed repping not dependant on the amount of ewar the enemy has brought. In addition I would say atleast 1 smartbomb is mandatory, go officer or go home.... please dont do drone control units either unless you only sit outside a pos and asign fighters. again however it all comes down to the situation and dont wine that you cant dock or refit easily as more then likely the list of different situations you put your mom in combat for is pretty small. So take a good hard look at that list and see if from it you can cover all angles with the 6 highs you have. The only two I would put as mandatory is capiatal remote repper of the flavor you get a range bonus to(two of em if you get both) and atleast one officer smartbomb
Requiescat True Foundation Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.24 23:48:00 - [42] I think a lot of people who are opposed to your ideas, Sok, didn't read the part of your post where you laid out how difficult it is to refit a mom since you can't dock in it Victory - Honor = Loss
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.24 23:57:00 - [43] Edited by: Splagada on 24/01/2008 23:57:03 pretty nice request. totally agree with the idea, but if you fought MC in the north when they broke up razor space, you see how those pwnmobiles they were were overpowered... 4 mothership vs 120, fleet dies... i sure dont want to see this ever again :/ just a side note, as much as the "stealth cyno" of some new ships are not used to their full extent, the clone vat/ship bay is really not used to its full extent on any mothership i ever met tested a bit on those for fun with some friends, one of them piloting a hel, and well its pretty great. horrible to organize on a group level imo, but quite fun. jump to ms, get your ship, pew! of course now its empty ships so the logistics are even worse but still :p the "mother" part of the mothership is still underused. that's maybe the point behind the nerf, i dont know ------ Tides of Silence
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.25 00:54:00 - [44] 00:53:37 Notify Training of the skill Caldari Carrier lvl 5 has been completed. puppy eyes
Theladder	Posted - 2008.01.25 02:39:00 - [45] Right now, MSs are just like ferraris in RL, they are just a bit better than Volvos but 10~20 times more expensive
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2008.01.25 03:09:00 - [46] Motherships should get some guns because it would look cool. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
SexehGallente Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.01.25 03:52:00 - [47] I've also spoken with numerous nighthawk pilots, we all agree it should have 8 launchers, 7 midslots and 4 lowslots.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.01.25 05:43:00 - [48] Originally by: SexehGallente I've also spoken with numerous nighthawk pilots, we all agree it should have 8 launchers, 7 midslots and 4 lowslots. Golem's got your 8 effective launchers, 7 mids and 4 lows. It's also ungodly expensive and does not typically justify its price over say, a NH or standard Raven. It has some cool bonuses (that won't all really get used) and tanks harder than the standard Raven or NH. Oddly, this point parallels Sok's thread rather well. . . -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.25 07:00:00 - [49] Supercaps are in need of a boost, and ccp have said they're aware of this. The days of the pwnmobile mothership ended with dictor bubbles preventing cynos, dictor bubbles canceling warp(after you already initiated), and the heavy dictor. It really wasnt the killing or tanking ability of the mothership that made it so powerful in the past, but rather that it could choose to disengage and simply leave should a fight turn unfavorable, because neuts is the only way to stop it from cynoing out. This is not the case anymore.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.25 08:11:00 - [50] Originally by: Requiescat I think a lot of people who are opposed to your ideas, Sok, didn't read the part of your post where you laid out how difficult it is to refit a mom since you can't dock in it I think i should have stressed it a bit more. Capital mods are ridiculously large (4k m3) so impossible to haul around all the time

Alyth Gallente Dichotomy	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:04:00 - [51] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Originally by: SexehGallente I've also spoken with numerous nighthawk pilots, we all agree it should have 8 launchers, 7 midslots and 4 lowslots. Golem's got your 8 effective launchers, 7 mids and 4 lows. It's also ungodly expensive and does not typically justify its price over say, a NH or standard Raven. It has some cool bonuses (that won't all really get used) and tanks harder than the standard Raven or NH. Oddly, this point parallels Sok's thread rather well. . . Sorry but how do motherships tank harder than carriers? Never got that bit considering they don't get any additional bonus' to tanking over carriers so doesn't that make their tank the same just with more hitpoints? A couple of sieged dreads are going to screw over a mothership just as much as they will a carrier only it will take a little longer. With regards to the Golem, which bonus won't be used? The painter bonus is ungodly for torps, the tanking bonus is just wow and two damage bonus' (explosion radius and and 100% damage bonus) are used every time you fire? Apples and oranges. -------------------------------------------
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.01.25 23:53:00 - [52] Originally by: Alyth Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Originally by: SexehGallente I've also spoken with numerous nighthawk pilots, we all agree it should have 8 launchers, 7 midslots and 4 lowslots. Golem's got your 8 effective launchers, 7 mids and 4 lows. It's also ungodly expensive and does not typically justify its price over say, a NH or standard Raven. It has some cool bonuses (that won't all really get used) and tanks harder than the standard Raven or NH. Oddly, this point parallels Sok's thread rather well. . . Sorry but how do motherships tank harder than carriers? Never got that bit considering they don't get any additional bonus' to tanking over carriers so doesn't that make their tank the same just with more hitpoints? A couple of sieged dreads are going to screw over a mothership just as much as they will a carrier only it will take a little longer. With regards to the Golem, which bonus won't be used? The painter bonus is ungodly for torps, the tanking bonus is just wow and two damage bonus' (explosion radius and and 100% damage bonus) are used every time you fire? Apples and oranges. Shhh! Don't try to derail responses to trolls with your logic! MS get 1 more mid/low slot, it's not much to be sure, but their tank is (slightly) improved by the ability to fit one more hardener or cap mod. Nowhere close to the Marauder's +30/37.5% to active tanks though. And yes, a few siege dreads will kill either Carrier or MS, the only difference is how long it takes, what it takes to hold them down and what drops afterward. Painter bonus is, as you said, ungodly for torps. However, as most Golems will get used for mission farming at Motsu or something, they'll be fitted with cruise, which get very little from painters or an explosion velocity bonus. It's great on a PVP Siege Golem though, but for most people, it's not worth spending 500m extra ISK to get a (pretty much uninsurable) Golem over an insurable T1 Raven. And that was my point, the MS and Golem are for most purposes not worth the order of magnitude increase in cost for a marginal increase in effectiveness. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.26 19:08:00 - [53] they should not Trashed sig, Shark was here
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.01.26 19:30:00 - [54] "doesn't that make their tank the same just with more hitpoints? A couple of sieged dreads are going to screw over a mothership just as much as they will a carrier only it will take a little longer." Excuse my ignorance, but isn't "more hitpoints" and "takes longer to 'screw over'" the very definition of a better tank? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Alexandra The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.26 20:25:00 - [55] One of the things I like about Motherships is the versatility in what roles they can do. And they can do a lot of things, just not all at once. So you have to make those high 6 slots count. The fit that Sokratesz is flying is geared for ship protection rather than overall support and there is a price to be paid with the number of high slots that are available reduced. Another fit is the "mobile starbase" fit with clone bays and Gang-warfare links. In this configuration you'll be parked outside of a POS (with covering batteries to help protect you) and assign fighters to other ships. In this profile, you can revive pilots in your clone bay and bring an impressive number of spare ships with you to help get people back into the field. Then you have the "Front-line" ship with capital logistics modules, direct fighter control and perhaps a Triage module when your BS's are getting nailed. (Triage module is designed to save your fleet, not your ship. Your fleet saves your ship. If you're being pounded directly, Triage or not you are probably cooked.) So the ship itself I believe is okay. The only thing that needs a boost I think is the Remote ECM burst (and the bomb equivalent). Breaking the lock is not that useful and it still has that 15min refire delay to keep it in check. Anyways, my 2 ISK.
Nom Gand Three 6 MaFiA Shadows Of Supremacy	Posted - 2008.01.26 21:06:00 - [56] I agree with most of your points. Ive never flown a MS or a Carrier before, but Ive seen a few in action. But I gotta Ask, For HIC's Why not just carry some ECM drones or something? Chances are if you dont have a Cloak on your basicly giving up your ability fight in enemy territory. Like you said the Moms need their cloaks SBs and neuts to stay alive, regardless of Support or not. All in All a big fat /Signed. Rawr, ebil piwates away...BC's of DOOM.. My Views dont mean that they are the same of my corp and my Alliance. Skill is when Luck Becomes a Habit.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:49:00 - [57] Bumping, for great justice. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it I refuse to read SHC
Alski	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:51:00 - [58] I've always thought mere Carriers should have more highslots, so i'm just gonna give you a /signed without reading the rest of the thread - Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.04.02 16:45:00 - [59] A boost to smartbombs would free up a high slot or too, particularly on capacitor-heavy motherships. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'


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