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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:25:00 -
[1]
sup eve, hear me roar..
There has been alot of talk lately as to what change CCP should make to carriers and motherships. Especially in the case of motherships, what could be done to set them apart from their smaller brethren?
For about three weeks now i've had the honor of piloting a 'Wyvern' Caldari mothership, and long before that time i've been doing research to find the best way to fit and use it within present-day Eve. Prior to this mothership, i've been piloting a 'Chimera' Caldari carrier for over 8 months, and i've got combat experience alongside and against nearly all of the other races carriers and motherships. There are a few things that i've come across that i would like to share with you.
First, some facts:
- Motherships cost roughly 20x as much as a carrier to build
- They have 2 more slots than their carrier counterpart, in all cases one extra high, and then one extra mid- or lowslot
- They cannot dock, thus require a POS maintenance array or other carrier-class vessel to refit
Now, on to experiences and practical uses of the attributes listed above. Each mothership is capable of fitting a tank that will withstand 4-5k DPS using Tech 2 equipment only. Using faction or officer grade modules it is quite easy to fit them for a far better, yet also more expensive tank, something which is deemed worthwhile by most pilots to protect their asset. Fitting such a tank usually takes up most mid- and lowslots, sometimes leaving one or two free to accomodate other modules such as warp disrupters, sensorboosters and webifiers. This means the amount of variability between a motherships low- and midslots is relatively small.
Now, onto my main point of concern. Highslots.
Each mothership has 6 highslots. This is one more than a standard carrier has. They posess no launcher or turret hardpoints, so the list of modules they can fit is as follows:
- Smartbombs
- Capital-size logistics modules in cap/armour/shield flavours
- Cloaking devices
- Drone control units
- Energy vampires and neutralizers
- Clone-Vat Bays
- Triage Modules
- Warfare Links
- Remote ECM burst
Having personally spoken with close to a dozen mothership pilots in my eve career, the general opinion on a minimum highslot fitting is as follows:
1x Cloak
2x Smartbombs
1x Heavy energy neutralizer
As noted before, a mothership is an asset that many pilots feels requires special love and care..therefor most of these modules serve to protect the vessel in one way or another. A cloak enables you to hide from sight and enjoy the occasional interruption of 'Real-Life' into one's Eve-Life. Smartbombs are the only 'point-defence' weapons a mothership can mount, and will effectively clear or scare away drones, fighters or other, smaller, podpiloted vessels. The Neutralizer is a last resort to be used against the classic interdictor and the recently introduced and extremely effective 'Heavy Interdictor'
To stress the importance of this, i will assure you that piloting a mothership without at least these four modules fitted, will be deemed 'suicidal' by any mothership pilot out there.
This leaves us with 2 free highslots and 6 (!!) different classes of modules to fit. I will not go over the uses of each of them, as every pilot may want to customize the ship in his/her own way.
Instead i want you to consider this: CCP has recently stressed the use of carriers and motherships for logistical purposes. This would mean fitting at least 1 and preferably 2 logistical modules, along with a triage module - a combination that would take three slots, while i have just explained why there will be only two left!
Motherships should not be the end-of-end-all, but they are difficult to refit, especially when on the frontlines, but meanwhile CCP wants to 'force' us into a certain role (logistics / support), while we as players try and take measures to protect our investments.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:25:00 -
[2]
With the recent introduction of Remote ECM-Burst and Triage modules, clearly meant to give motherships more of a support role, CCP has given us two powerful tools. With the introduction of Heavy Interdictors, they have given us an even more powerful adversary.
I repeat: Motherships should not be-all-end-all, but at their current pricing and survivability, i cannot conclude other than the following: If CCP wants us to use these tools the way they are meant, they should accommodate us as such.
Giving motherships one, or even two extra highslots will make them more useful, without causing them to be game-breaking. The choices are just too much to all fit in 6 slots, of which 4 will already be filled by any sensible pilot.
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Artem Plovix
Dynamic Industrial Group
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:35:00 -
[3]
God forbid one mothership isn't capable of filling every role.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:38:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Artem Plovix
God forbid one mothership isn't capable of filling every role.
Given that 'every role' would require close to 15 highslots, i really doubt it. Plus they are difficult to refit, so saying 'just fit for the situation' doesn't really apply here. The consequence of not being able to dock is quite a harsh one - i do not wish it removed, but i doubt everyone will properly understand it.
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Mr Funkadelic
Tenacious Danes
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:42:00 -
[5]
You could start by taking that cloak off - i have never used a cloak on my ms and never will. Thats one more free slot for you.
anyways i would like to have more slots  so i agree with you 
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Arvald
Caldari
Devilish Intentinos
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Artem Plovix
God forbid one mothership isn't capable of filling every role.
how is having limited point defense and the ability to maby hide if needed while preforming its main role of logistics preforming every role? (and befer you ask yes hauling stuff is part of logistics)
Originally by: Richard Phallus
go and get someone to take a golf club and take a good swing at your nuts by surprise when you walk into a dark room some time. This will prepare you for eve's pvp
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PhantomVyper
Darkness Inc.
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:56:00 -
[7]
Shouldn't the rest of your fleet fill in for the roles that you are unwilling to fulfill at the time? Like say, take care of enemy support that is pinning you down?
So you can now remove that Neut and the cloak. There are your 2 extra high-slots.
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Troye
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:07:00 -
[8]
Yes because motherships arnt powerful enough already, BOOST motherships CCP!
_______________________________________
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...Even if you win, you're still ********. " |
Ryuben
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Troye
Yes because motherships arnt powerful enough already, BOOST motherships CCP!
You *flame*
now thats over with
imagine if u purchased a cruiser 7mill cost and it did x and y
u now purchased a Battle ship tier 2 100mill cost thats a x14 price increase and it does almost exatly the same as a cruiser except u can't dock - and u can't be jammed
would u not see the flaws in such a design ?
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Troye
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ryuben
imagine if u purchased a cruiser 7mill cost and it did x and y
u now purchased a Battle ship tier 2 100mill cost thats a x14 price increase and it does almost exatly the same as a cruiser except u can't dock - and u can't be jammed
would u not see the flaws in such a design ?
Motherships have 25 fighters, way more tank and can use remote ECM bursts plus all the other functions of regular carriers only better. A fair tade off for not being able to dock.
Are you implying MSs arnt worth the isk? If they were any cheaper everyone would ahev one and then PvP realy would be screwed.
_______________________________________
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...Even if you win, you're still ********. " |
Major Stallion
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Shouldn't the rest of your fleet fill in for the roles that you are unwilling to fulfill at the time? Like say, take care of enemy support that is pinning you down?
So you can now remove that Neut and the cloak. There are your 2 extra high-slots.
QFT, sorry sok, but you cant have more high slots b/c you wanna fit a cloak and a neut.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Troye
Motherships have 25 fighters, way more tank and can use remote ECM bursts plus all the other functions of regular carriers only better. A fair tade off for not being able to dock.
Are you implying MSs arnt worth the isk? If they were any cheaper everyone would ahev one and then PvP realy would be screwed.
First off they only have 20 fighters, second, if i had a slot to use for ecm burst, i would. Third, they don't do 'everything better', they are much, much slower and have a significantly shorter jump range.
Keep trolling.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Shouldn't the rest of your fleet fill in for the roles that you are unwilling to fulfill at the time? Like say, take care of enemy support that is pinning you down?
So you can now remove that Neut and the cloak. There are your 2 extra high-slots.
QFT, sorry sok, but you cant have more high slots b/c you wanna fit a cloak and a neut.
You want me to fly without them always? Doubt you even do that when travelling. And theres the flaw: if it were easy to refit upon destination i would have much less to say on the matter.
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Snipe Ranger
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:31:00 -
[14]
Honestly you shouldnt use a ms without proper support.
that frees up at least the cloak slot.
The heavy Nuet I can understand but again, with proper support you shouldn't absolutely need it.
Having said all that the ship does cost 20bill ffs, So can't flame ya for the request.
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Ryuben
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Troye
Motherships have 25 fighters, way more tank and can use remote ECM bursts plus all the other functions of regular carriers only better. A fair tade off for not being able to dock.
Are you implying MSs arnt worth the isk? If they were any cheaper everyone would ahev one and then PvP realy would be screwed.
MS has 20 fighters
"Way more tank " no not the scale of Cruiser -> battle ship
MS are slower then a carrier - Shorter jump range too
for a MS to be used in FLEET combat as its intended role it does need a buff as atm its not enough to distinguish it
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Major Stallion
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Shouldn't the rest of your fleet fill in for the roles that you are unwilling to fulfill at the time? Like say, take care of enemy support that is pinning you down?
So you can now remove that Neut and the cloak. There are your 2 extra high-slots.
QFT, sorry sok, but you cant have more high slots b/c you wanna fit a cloak and a neut.
You want me to fly without them always? Doubt you even do that when travelling. And theres the flaw: if it were easy to refit upon destination i would have much less to say on the matter.
yeh i understand fitting them for travel, but if you plan on dropping it into a fleet fight, your fleet should be able to fill the roles your asking for extra slots for, no?
If you're flying your mom in a fleet that doesnt have the neut role filled, you are flying with the wrong fleet. Being in Tri, i doubt thats ever the case tbh
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Troye
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.01.23 18:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sokratesz
First off they only have 20 fighters, second, if i had a slot to use for ecm burst, i would. Third, they don't do 'everything better', they are much, much slower and have a significantly shorter jump range.
Keep trolling.
I'm talking about their maximum capacity for fighters, with drone modules in its highs thats 25. I seriously doubt your going to get any kind of boost, CCP have already expressed their desire to nerf the carrier class so your cause is a lost one.
How am I trolling? Am I not allowed to disagree with you.
_______________________________________
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...Even if you win, you're still ********. " |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 18:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Troye
Originally by: Sokratesz
First off they only have 20 fighters, second, if i had a slot to use for ecm burst, i would. Third, they don't do 'everything better', they are much, much slower and have a significantly shorter jump range.
Keep trolling.
I'm talking about their maximum capacity for fighters, with drone modules in its highs thats 25. I seriously doubt your going to get any kind of boost, CCP have already expressed their desire to nerf the carrier class so your cause is a lost one.
How am I trolling? Am I not allowed to disagree with you.
You're not exactly being constructive. No-one will give up 5 highslots to get 25 fighter on his mothership. CCP isn't going to nerf them, they want to change them, away from dps, into a support role. And thats exactly what more highslots would allow them to do better.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 06:50:00 -
[19]
I still think they could use a highslot or two.
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Elisa Day
Koshaku
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Posted - 2008.01.24 07:51:00 -
[20]
I'd much rather take another mid on my Aeon.
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Pans Exual
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Posted - 2008.01.24 07:57:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pans Exual on 24/01/2008 07:57:27
Honestly, this is one of the more reasonable requests I've heard made. I wouldn't mind seeing motherships with one extra high slot.
Edit - I think an extra high slot would be far less of a buff than an extra mid or low slot.
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Barthezz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 10:14:00 -
[22]
Actually the Aeon and Wyvern may be able to tank 4-5k dps with T2 mods, but I'm not so sure about a Nyx and Hel, but thats besides the point.
I've always said that motherships miss 'something', CCP gave it the ECM Burst which might be interesting with HIC's these days [even though I feel the whole focused-script for a HIC is way past balance].
But if you look at the bonuses of a mothership, one of its roles is:
Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level
Another is:
99% reduction in CPU need for Clone Vat Bay
Another is:
99% reduction in CPU need for Projected Electronic Counter Measures modules
So you have 2 ms-specific modules(ECM + Clone Vat Bay) and you can fit 6 warfare links. Thats 8 slots already, then you arent even fitting remote repair modules or a triage module.
I actually think that CCP should rethink the bonuses of all the motherships. Give the ship more focus instead of giving bonuses which make it jack-of-all-trades.
If anything I'd like to see carriers move more towards logistics and motherships more towards combat (even more yes, its really not that hard to kill a solo mothership). This means re-doing some of the bonuses of both the carriers and motherships, but it would also mean a clear and defined difference between the two.
And for everyone saying "you need moar support", fine but whats "enough support"?
The problem with that question is that the answer is always the same, enough support is simply put, more people then the enemy has (anything less means your support gets killed, you get killed and you didnt have enough support).
At that time the other question becomes, how valuable is a mothership once it becomes a blob fest?
Just some questions for ya.
For me personally a mothership has always been a ship which can turn the tide in smaller battles (<20 people) as thats where its current bonuses shine, this however then results in the possibility of getting blobbed. Thats what happened to my Nyx last year, such is life but I used it the way i felt it had to be used, not part of an omg blob but also not as a solo pwn mobile.
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Dont be a victim of what I do to survive! |
nameless oats
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Posted - 2008.01.24 10:20:00 -
[23]
I'm sure the 3 ships you've killed with it qualify you for this thread.
If you get 2 extra highs will you start fielding it more? Hard to collect the 5b bounty on it dying (those darn tris don't want to do it that cheap) if you don't.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 10:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: nameless oats
I'm sure the 3 ships you've killed with it qualify you for this thread.
If you get 2 extra highs will you start fielding it more? Hard to collect the 5b bounty on it dying (those darn tris don't want to do it that cheap) if you don't.
Buhu? I've had it for three weeks, and its not like TRI has been in much action since i got it. Besides, i've got other things to do than jump it all across the universe to get a few cheap ganks.
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Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
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Posted - 2008.01.24 11:27:00 -
[25]
I just had a thought.
This game needs more supercaps.
______
Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
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Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.01.24 11:30:00 -
[26]
no
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 11:59:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Steve Hawkings
no
How about you post something constructive?
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo
I just had a thought.
This game needs more supercaps.
As far as i'm aware the amount of supercaps in-game has been steadily decreasing since the introduction of HICs. 3 moms down just in a week and counting. The suggested changes will do nothing to promote more moms being built, just to make them more effective at whats CCP wants them to do.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:01:00 -
[28]
Motherships and titans should both have the maximum 8/8/8 configuration, added to that bonus' and special abilities to set them apart.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Alyth
Gallente
Dichotomy
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:04:00 -
[29]
I agree with most of your points here Sok, even if you are a smelly Tri monkey 
I'm about a month from hopping into my Thanatos and I'm hard pressed to think of any reason, except more fighters, to even contemplate going for a Nyx. They are basically the same ship with a couple of extra slots for 15-20x the cost. They don't do anything better than their smaller brethren except when e-war is prevalent and even then that can be countered by going into triage mode.
Actually while typing this I did think of one advantage in that they can provide logistics and fighter cover at the same time. That's not much for the (rather hefty) price tag, especially considering that gives you the choice of keeping yourself or one of your gangmates alive given the high-slot sacrifices you'd have to make to do so. I'd gladly drop a remote rep for a remote ECM burst/smartie/cloak given the choice of letting a gangmate lose a 200m bs or me losing a 20 odd billion isk mothership.
So basically yeah, more highslots for motherships if you want them to effectively fulfill their intended roles.
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La KeepS
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:06:00 -
[30]
Nyx 8/8/8
deploy 25 fighters per level
5% all resist per level.
5% to smartbombing range per level.
works for me :)
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Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:09:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Troye
Motherships have 25 fighters
which would take 5 high slots, goddamn n00b!
Originally by: Troye
way more tank
which inr eality means 1 more tanking slot. That is a HUGHE difference and you can fit your 4th stacking nerved resist mod or a 3rd repair you dont have cap for...
ew imunity, damage (up to 20 fighters realsitically which is two carriers) and possibility of up to 6 gang links is what makes them worth the tag or not.
2 more highs on the other hand wouldnt hurt. not like 2 more fighters, smartbombs or neuts could make a 18bil ship overpowered. if there were capital siced neuts or smartbombs (not doomsday, just capital siced smartbomb with 15-20km ish range and 2000-3000damage) highslots would be a balancing issue but not with bs mods.
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Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:16:00 -
[32]
The op is very well written and I cannot find fault in the proposal.
Sounds reasonable, so I agree.
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
Alyth
Gallente
Dichotomy
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:33:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
Originally by: Troye
Motherships have 25 fighters
which would take 5 high slots, goddamn n00b!
Originally by: Troye
way more tank
which inr eality means 1 more tanking slot. That is a HUGHE difference and you can fit your 4th stacking nerved resist mod or a 3rd repair you dont have cap for...
ew imunity, damage (up to 20 fighters realsitically which is two carriers) and possibility of up to 6 gang links is what makes them worth the tag or not.
2 more highs on the other hand wouldnt hurt. not like 2 more fighters, smartbombs or neuts could make a 18bil ship overpowered. if there were capital siced neuts or smartbombs (not doomsday, just capital siced smartbomb with 15-20km ish range and 2000-3000damage) highslots would be a balancing issue but not with bs mods.
You make a good point there with the gang mods thing, something I forgot about entirely. Yet another thing to add to the already large list of 'very useful things to carry but can't without gimping myself'. I'd love to be able to fit a couple of gangmods if I have a mothership, but again the choice between what to fit is pretty much predetermined with the current slot layouts.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Alyth
You make a good point there with the gang mods thing, something I forgot about entirely. Yet another thing to add to the already large list of 'very useful things to carry but can't without gimping myself'. I'd love to be able to fit a couple of gangmods if I have a mothership, but again the choice between what to fit is pretty much predetermined with the current slot layouts.
I intended to dedicate an entire paragraph to the wasted bonus that is the gangmod thing on moms, but thought the logistics example alone would be enough. But yes, you worded it exactly right: "I'd love to be able to fit a couple of gangmods if I have a mothership, but again the choice between what to fit is pretty much predetermined with the current slot layouts."
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2008.01.24 13:18:00 -
[35]
The cloak is not only mandatory for strategical reasons, it is vital for being able to log out of the game safely in systems without friendly POS.
The two ship classes that can hold a mothership down are interdictors and heavy interdictors. The defenses available against them are smartbombs and neutralizers in conjunction with fighters. One smartbomb will destroy bubbles, but not interdictors themselves. For practical reasons a minimum of two, often preferrably three are required.
Moms can't use triage because it's practically the kill me while I sit here and do nothing button, so no worries trying to fit one of those. ECM Burst is pretty much useless aswell because it only breaks lock, it does not jam for any amount of time. A ridiculous pre-nerfed supposedly unique and marginally useful piece of *******s, really. And the same pretty much applies to clone vat bay aswell; incredibly impractical.
So, that leaves us remote assistance and gang mods. Circlejerk tanking is one of the main reasons carriers or motherships would be worth flying in the first place, so not using at least one remote repper/xfer is pretty daft. Especially when most of the time those ships will be sitting at stations or POS' repairing them. And since mom tanking is only marginally better than carrier tanking which isn't that great without triage, the need for remote assistance is comparable to a paralyzed granny.
So then we're left with one little piggy who couldn't decide whether it wanted to be a gang mod, a second xfer or neut or a third smartie. It wanted to be a gang mod because it thought motherships were supposed to be like super flagships with nber bonuses to the fleet. But why bother when command ships actually get bonuses for the modules, and its much more useful to assign booster to one of them with several gang mods than your puny unbonused one.
So, in conclusion, some bloody incentives for those modules would be appreciated. Another highslot wouldn't hurt, but it's far from sufficient a solution.
---
CEO
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Charlie Seriya
Gallente
Eve Defence Force
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.24 13:53:00 -
[36]
I agree that Motherships need changes that include some kind of buff, and an extra high slot or two would be one step towards this. However, I disagree with the notion that you have some kind of right to a free cloak. Additionally, Energy Neutralisers should be handled by your gangmates. By fitting a Neut you're trying to make the ship interdictor-proof solo, which should come at a price.
Still, the mothership needs something else. 3% bonus to effectiveness of all warfare links per level? Maybe even 5%, giving you a reason to field it as a gang booster over a command ship. Or giving the Remote ECM Burst a jam duration (5 secs? More? The reactivation delay keeps in in check.) Honeslty, how much use is that module right now?
I'm not saying they should have more roles, and I'm not saying that nothing should be taken away from them in turn, but they really ought to be focused to be the absolute best at -something- to justify the immense investment and risk in fielding one.
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xttz
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.24 14:16:00 -
[37]
1. Remove the bonus to remote reps and triage modules, having these on an ECM-proof ship is bad when facing massed MS. Motherships should rely on specialised logistics ships for support, not other motherships.
2. Buff to eight hi-slots, no change to other slots. This encourages more gang mods or point defense weapons like smartbombs and neuts.
3. Buff Remote ECM burst with various scripts to give it a more useful effect. Right now this module does not justify deploying a mothership in a fleet fight, largely due to its high cooldown time and very brief effect.
4. Fix clone vats to allow two-way clone jumps and the ability to set of medical clones to any corp office.
5. Increase ship maintainence bay capacity to better support the clone bay.
6. Buff tanking ability slightly, either in the form of increased overall HP or rep bonus per level.
7. Introduce new logistics fighters only usable by motherships. These can be assigned to support sub-capital fleet ships in order to assist their cap, tank or ewar capabilities. Logistics fighters double in effectiveness when their mothership is on the same grid.
You now have a vessel that justifies its position in direct battle, can support a corp in a 'flagship' role away from battle, and can defend itself from smaller threats while needing a varied support fleet against larger targets.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 14:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: xttz
1. Remove the bonus to remote reps and triage modules, having these on an ECM-proof ship is bad when facing massed MS. Motherships should rely on specialised logistics ships for support, not other motherships.
2. Buff to eight hi-slots, no change to other slots. This encourages more gang mods or point defense weapons like smartbombs and neuts.
3. Buff Remote ECM burst with various scripts to give it a more useful effect. Right now this module does not justify deploying a mothership in a fleet fight, largely due to its high cooldown time and very brief effect.
4. Fix clone vats to allow two-way clone jumps and the ability to set of medical clones to any corp office.
5. Increase ship maintainence bay capacity to better support the clone bay.
6. Buff tanking ability slightly, either in the form of increased overall HP or rep bonus per level.
7. Introduce new logistics fighters only usable by motherships. These can be assigned to support sub-capital fleet ships in order to assist their cap, tank or ewar capabilities. Logistics fighters double in effectiveness when their mothership is on the same grid.
You now have a vessel that justifies its position in direct battle, can support a corp in a 'flagship' role away from battle, and can defend itself from smaller threats while needing a varied support fleet against larger targets.
/me sets goonswarm +5 for this post only
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.24 21:18:00 -
[39]
no they are fine like they are now they dont need a boost
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 23:28:00 -
[40]
Originally by: SiJira
no they are fine like they are now they dont need a boost
I might care more for your opinion if you
1) told me who you were
2) told me what your experience with them is
3) told me in more than one line
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Bertn Erney
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Posted - 2008.01.24 23:40:00 -
[41]
triage is worthless in battle, the only reason to fit the module is for the targets controlled bonus it gives, think its something like 4 extra targets or what not.
cloak.... well unless you plan to smartbomb lowsec I would say drop the damn cloak and fly with support fleets..... Cloak is very useless unless you are planning on operating for very extended periods in enemy space and even then its still easy to get in trouble relying on one.
in large scale fights I know the remote repping of the motherships is incredibly valuable to other carriers on the field, because it is guaranteed repping not dependant on the amount of ewar the enemy has brought. In addition I would say atleast 1 smartbomb is mandatory, go officer or go home....
please dont do drone control units either unless you only sit outside a pos and asign fighters.
again however it all comes down to the situation and dont wine that you cant dock or refit easily as more then likely the list of different situations you put your mom in combat for is pretty small. So take a good hard look at that list and see if from it you can cover all angles with the 6 highs you have. The only two I would put as mandatory is capiatal remote repper of the flavor you get a range bonus to(two of em if you get both) and atleast one officer smartbomb
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Requiescat
True Foundation
Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.24 23:48:00 -
[42]
I think a lot of people who are opposed to your ideas, Sok, didn't read the part of your post where you laid out how difficult it is to refit a mom since you can't dock in it
Victory - Honor = Loss |
Splagada
Minmatar
Tides of Silence
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.24 23:57:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Splagada on 24/01/2008 23:57:03
pretty nice request. totally agree with the idea, but if you fought MC in the north when they broke up razor space, you see how those pwnmobiles they were were overpowered... 4 mothership vs 120, fleet dies... i sure dont want to see this ever again :/
just a side note, as much as the "stealth cyno" of some new ships are not used to their full extent, the clone vat/ship bay is really not used to its full extent on any mothership i ever met
tested a bit on those for fun with some friends, one of them piloting a hel, and well its pretty great. horrible to organize on a group level imo, but quite fun. jump to ms, get your ship, pew!
of course now its empty ships so the logistics are even worse but still :p the "mother" part of the mothership is still underused. that's maybe the point behind the nerf, i dont know
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Tides of Silence |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.25 00:54:00 -
[44]
00:53:37 Notify Training of the skill Caldari Carrier lvl 5 has been completed.
*puppy eyes*
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Theladder
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Posted - 2008.01.25 02:39:00 -
[45]
Right now, MSs are just like ferraris in RL, they are just a bit better than Volvos but 10~20 times more expensive 
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2008.01.25 03:09:00 -
[46]
Motherships should get some guns because it would look cool.
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If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
SexehGallente
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.01.25 03:52:00 -
[47]
I've also spoken with numerous nighthawk pilots, we all agree it should have 8 launchers, 7 midslots and 4 lowslots.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.01.25 05:43:00 -
[48]
Originally by: SexehGallente
I've also spoken with numerous nighthawk pilots, we all agree it should have 8 launchers, 7 midslots and 4 lowslots.
Golem's got your 8 effective launchers, 7 mids and 4 lows. It's also ungodly expensive and does not typically justify its price over say, a NH or standard Raven. It has some cool bonuses (that won't all really get used) and tanks harder than the standard Raven or NH.
Oddly, this point parallels Sok's thread rather well. . .
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ICE Blueprint Sales
FIRST!! -Yipsilanti
Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.25 07:00:00 -
[49]
Supercaps are in need of a boost, and ccp have said they're aware of this.
The days of the pwnmobile mothership ended with dictor bubbles preventing cynos, dictor bubbles canceling warp(after you already initiated), and the heavy dictor.
It really wasnt the killing or tanking ability of the mothership that made it so powerful in the past, but rather that it could choose to disengage and simply leave should a fight turn unfavorable, because neuts is the only way to stop it from cynoing out. This is not the case anymore.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.25 08:11:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Requiescat
I think a lot of people who are opposed to your ideas, Sok, didn't read the part of your post where you laid out how difficult it is to refit a mom since you can't dock in it
I think i should have stressed it a bit more. Capital mods are ridiculously large (4k m3) so impossible to haul around all the time 
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Alyth
Gallente
Dichotomy
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Posted - 2008.01.25 12:04:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jurgen Cartis
Originally by: SexehGallente
I've also spoken with numerous nighthawk pilots, we all agree it should have 8 launchers, 7 midslots and 4 lowslots.
Golem's got your 8 effective launchers, 7 mids and 4 lows. It's also ungodly expensive and does not typically justify its price over say, a NH or standard Raven. It has some cool bonuses (that won't all really get used) and tanks harder than the standard Raven or NH.
Oddly, this point parallels Sok's thread rather well. . .
Sorry but how do motherships tank harder than carriers? Never got that bit considering they don't get any additional bonus' to tanking over carriers so doesn't that make their tank the same just with more hitpoints? A couple of sieged dreads are going to screw over a mothership just as much as they will a carrier only it will take a little longer.
With regards to the Golem, which bonus won't be used? The painter bonus is ungodly for torps, the tanking bonus is just wow and two damage bonus' (explosion radius and and 100% damage bonus) are used every time you fire? Apples and oranges.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.01.25 23:53:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Alyth
Originally by: Jurgen Cartis
Originally by: SexehGallente
I've also spoken with numerous nighthawk pilots, we all agree it should have 8 launchers, 7 midslots and 4 lowslots.
Golem's got your 8 effective launchers, 7 mids and 4 lows. It's also ungodly expensive and does not typically justify its price over say, a NH or standard Raven. It has some cool bonuses (that won't all really get used) and tanks harder than the standard Raven or NH.
Oddly, this point parallels Sok's thread rather well. . .
Sorry but how do motherships tank harder than carriers? Never got that bit considering they don't get any additional bonus' to tanking over carriers so doesn't that make their tank the same just with more hitpoints? A couple of sieged dreads are going to screw over a mothership just as much as they will a carrier only it will take a little longer.
With regards to the Golem, which bonus won't be used? The painter bonus is ungodly for torps, the tanking bonus is just wow and two damage bonus' (explosion radius and and 100% damage bonus) are used every time you fire? Apples and oranges.
Shhh! Don't try to derail responses to trolls with your logic!
MS get 1 more mid/low slot, it's not much to be sure, but their tank is (slightly) improved by the ability to fit one more hardener or cap mod. Nowhere close to the Marauder's +30/37.5% to active tanks though. And yes, a few siege dreads will kill either Carrier or MS, the only difference is how long it takes, what it takes to hold them down and what drops afterward.
Painter bonus is, as you said, ungodly for torps. However, as most Golems will get used for mission farming at Motsu or something, they'll be fitted with cruise, which get very little from painters or an explosion velocity bonus. It's great on a PVP Siege Golem though, but for most people, it's not worth spending 500m extra ISK to get a (pretty much uninsurable) Golem over an insurable T1 Raven.
And that was my point, the MS and Golem are for most purposes not worth the order of magnitude increase in cost for a marginal increase in effectiveness.
--------------------
ICE Blueprint Sales
FIRST!! -Yipsilanti
Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:08:00 -
[53]
they should not
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:30:00 -
[54]
"doesn't that make their tank the same just with more hitpoints? A couple of sieged dreads are going to screw over a mothership just as much as they will a carrier only it will take a little longer."
Excuse my ignorance, but isn't "more hitpoints" and "takes longer to 'screw over'" the very definition of a better tank?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Alexandra
The Littlest Hobos
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.26 20:25:00 -
[55]
One of the things I like about Motherships is the versatility in what roles they can do. And they can do a lot of things, just not all at once. So you have to make those high 6 slots count. The fit that Sokratesz is flying is geared for ship protection rather than overall support and there is a price to be paid with the number of high slots that are available reduced.
Another fit is the "mobile starbase" fit with clone bays and Gang-warfare links. In this configuration you'll be parked outside of a POS (with covering batteries to help protect you) and assign fighters to other ships. In this profile, you can revive pilots in your clone bay and bring an impressive number of spare ships with you to help get people back into the field.
Then you have the "Front-line" ship with capital logistics modules, direct fighter control and perhaps a Triage module when your BS's are getting nailed. (Triage module is designed to save your fleet, not your ship. Your fleet saves your ship. If you're being pounded directly, Triage or not you are probably cooked.)
So the ship itself I believe is okay. The only thing that needs a boost I think is the Remote ECM burst (and the bomb equivalent). Breaking the lock is not that useful and it still has that 15min refire delay to keep it in check.
Anyways, my 2 ISK.
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Nom Gand
Three 6 MaFiA
Shadows Of Supremacy
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Posted - 2008.01.26 21:06:00 -
[56]
I agree with most of your points. Ive never flown a MS or a Carrier before, but Ive seen a few in action. But I gotta Ask, For HIC's Why not just carry some ECM drones or something? Chances are if you dont have a Cloak on your basicly giving up your ability fight in enemy territory. Like you said the Moms need their cloaks SBs and neuts to stay alive, regardless of Support or not.
All in All a big fat /Signed.
Rawr, ebil piwates away...BC's of DOOM..
My Views dont mean that they are the same of my corp and my Alliance.
Skill is when Luck Becomes a Habit. |
Sokratesz
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Posted - 2008.04.02 15:49:00 -
[57]
Bumping, for great justice.
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Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it
I refuse to read SHC |
Alski
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Posted - 2008.04.02 15:51:00 -
[58]
I've always thought mere Carriers should have more highslots, so i'm just gonna give you a /signed without reading the rest of the thread
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(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.02 16:45:00 -
[59]
A boost to smartbombs would free up a high slot or too, particularly on capacitor-heavy motherships.
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