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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:25:00 -
[1]
sup eve, hear me roar..
There has been alot of talk lately as to what change CCP should make to carriers and motherships. Especially in the case of motherships, what could be done to set them apart from their smaller brethren?
For about three weeks now i've had the honor of piloting a 'Wyvern' Caldari mothership, and long before that time i've been doing research to find the best way to fit and use it within present-day Eve. Prior to this mothership, i've been piloting a 'Chimera' Caldari carrier for over 8 months, and i've got combat experience alongside and against nearly all of the other races carriers and motherships. There are a few things that i've come across that i would like to share with you.
First, some facts:
- Motherships cost roughly 20x as much as a carrier to build
- They have 2 more slots than their carrier counterpart, in all cases one extra high, and then one extra mid- or lowslot
- They cannot dock, thus require a POS maintenance array or other carrier-class vessel to refit
Now, on to experiences and practical uses of the attributes listed above. Each mothership is capable of fitting a tank that will withstand 4-5k DPS using Tech 2 equipment only. Using faction or officer grade modules it is quite easy to fit them for a far better, yet also more expensive tank, something which is deemed worthwhile by most pilots to protect their asset. Fitting such a tank usually takes up most mid- and lowslots, sometimes leaving one or two free to accomodate other modules such as warp disrupters, sensorboosters and webifiers. This means the amount of variability between a motherships low- and midslots is relatively small.
Now, onto my main point of concern. Highslots.
Each mothership has 6 highslots. This is one more than a standard carrier has. They posess no launcher or turret hardpoints, so the list of modules they can fit is as follows:
- Smartbombs
- Capital-size logistics modules in cap/armour/shield flavours
- Cloaking devices
- Drone control units
- Energy vampires and neutralizers
- Clone-Vat Bays
- Triage Modules
- Warfare Links
- Remote ECM burst
Having personally spoken with close to a dozen mothership pilots in my eve career, the general opinion on a minimum highslot fitting is as follows:
1x Cloak
2x Smartbombs
1x Heavy energy neutralizer
As noted before, a mothership is an asset that many pilots feels requires special love and care..therefor most of these modules serve to protect the vessel in one way or another. A cloak enables you to hide from sight and enjoy the occasional interruption of 'Real-Life' into one's Eve-Life. Smartbombs are the only 'point-defence' weapons a mothership can mount, and will effectively clear or scare away drones, fighters or other, smaller, podpiloted vessels. The Neutralizer is a last resort to be used against the classic interdictor and the recently introduced and extremely effective 'Heavy Interdictor'
To stress the importance of this, i will assure you that piloting a mothership without at least these four modules fitted, will be deemed 'suicidal' by any mothership pilot out there.
This leaves us with 2 free highslots and 6 (!!) different classes of modules to fit. I will not go over the uses of each of them, as every pilot may want to customize the ship in his/her own way.
Instead i want you to consider this: CCP has recently stressed the use of carriers and motherships for logistical purposes. This would mean fitting at least 1 and preferably 2 logistical modules, along with a triage module - a combination that would take three slots, while i have just explained why there will be only two left!
Motherships should not be the end-of-end-all, but they are difficult to refit, especially when on the frontlines, but meanwhile CCP wants to 'force' us into a certain role (logistics / support), while we as players try and take measures to protect our investments.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:25:00 -
[2]
With the recent introduction of Remote ECM-Burst and Triage modules, clearly meant to give motherships more of a support role, CCP has given us two powerful tools. With the introduction of Heavy Interdictors, they have given us an even more powerful adversary.
I repeat: Motherships should not be-all-end-all, but at their current pricing and survivability, i cannot conclude other than the following: If CCP wants us to use these tools the way they are meant, they should accommodate us as such.
Giving motherships one, or even two extra highslots will make them more useful, without causing them to be game-breaking. The choices are just too much to all fit in 6 slots, of which 4 will already be filled by any sensible pilot.
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Artem Plovix
Dynamic Industrial Group
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:35:00 -
[3]
God forbid one mothership isn't capable of filling every role.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:38:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Artem Plovix
God forbid one mothership isn't capable of filling every role.
Given that 'every role' would require close to 15 highslots, i really doubt it. Plus they are difficult to refit, so saying 'just fit for the situation' doesn't really apply here. The consequence of not being able to dock is quite a harsh one - i do not wish it removed, but i doubt everyone will properly understand it.
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Mr Funkadelic
Tenacious Danes
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:42:00 -
[5]
You could start by taking that cloak off - i have never used a cloak on my ms and never will. Thats one more free slot for you.
anyways i would like to have more slots  so i agree with you 
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Arvald
Caldari
Devilish Intentinos
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Artem Plovix
God forbid one mothership isn't capable of filling every role.
how is having limited point defense and the ability to maby hide if needed while preforming its main role of logistics preforming every role? (and befer you ask yes hauling stuff is part of logistics)
Originally by: Richard Phallus
go and get someone to take a golf club and take a good swing at your nuts by surprise when you walk into a dark room some time. This will prepare you for eve's pvp
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PhantomVyper
Darkness Inc.
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.01.23 16:56:00 -
[7]
Shouldn't the rest of your fleet fill in for the roles that you are unwilling to fulfill at the time? Like say, take care of enemy support that is pinning you down?
So you can now remove that Neut and the cloak. There are your 2 extra high-slots.
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Troye
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:07:00 -
[8]
Yes because motherships arnt powerful enough already, BOOST motherships CCP!
_______________________________________
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...Even if you win, you're still ********. " |
Ryuben
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Troye
Yes because motherships arnt powerful enough already, BOOST motherships CCP!
You *flame*
now thats over with
imagine if u purchased a cruiser 7mill cost and it did x and y
u now purchased a Battle ship tier 2 100mill cost thats a x14 price increase and it does almost exatly the same as a cruiser except u can't dock - and u can't be jammed
would u not see the flaws in such a design ?
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Troye
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ryuben
imagine if u purchased a cruiser 7mill cost and it did x and y
u now purchased a Battle ship tier 2 100mill cost thats a x14 price increase and it does almost exatly the same as a cruiser except u can't dock - and u can't be jammed
would u not see the flaws in such a design ?
Motherships have 25 fighters, way more tank and can use remote ECM bursts plus all the other functions of regular carriers only better. A fair tade off for not being able to dock.
Are you implying MSs arnt worth the isk? If they were any cheaper everyone would ahev one and then PvP realy would be screwed.
_______________________________________
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...Even if you win, you're still ********. " |
Major Stallion
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Shouldn't the rest of your fleet fill in for the roles that you are unwilling to fulfill at the time? Like say, take care of enemy support that is pinning you down?
So you can now remove that Neut and the cloak. There are your 2 extra high-slots.
QFT, sorry sok, but you cant have more high slots b/c you wanna fit a cloak and a neut.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Troye
Motherships have 25 fighters, way more tank and can use remote ECM bursts plus all the other functions of regular carriers only better. A fair tade off for not being able to dock.
Are you implying MSs arnt worth the isk? If they were any cheaper everyone would ahev one and then PvP realy would be screwed.
First off they only have 20 fighters, second, if i had a slot to use for ecm burst, i would. Third, they don't do 'everything better', they are much, much slower and have a significantly shorter jump range.
Keep trolling.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Shouldn't the rest of your fleet fill in for the roles that you are unwilling to fulfill at the time? Like say, take care of enemy support that is pinning you down?
So you can now remove that Neut and the cloak. There are your 2 extra high-slots.
QFT, sorry sok, but you cant have more high slots b/c you wanna fit a cloak and a neut.
You want me to fly without them always? Doubt you even do that when travelling. And theres the flaw: if it were easy to refit upon destination i would have much less to say on the matter.
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Snipe Ranger
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:31:00 -
[14]
Honestly you shouldnt use a ms without proper support.
that frees up at least the cloak slot.
The heavy Nuet I can understand but again, with proper support you shouldn't absolutely need it.
Having said all that the ship does cost 20bill ffs, So can't flame ya for the request.
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Ryuben
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Troye
Motherships have 25 fighters, way more tank and can use remote ECM bursts plus all the other functions of regular carriers only better. A fair tade off for not being able to dock.
Are you implying MSs arnt worth the isk? If they were any cheaper everyone would ahev one and then PvP realy would be screwed.
MS has 20 fighters
"Way more tank " no not the scale of Cruiser -> battle ship
MS are slower then a carrier - Shorter jump range too
for a MS to be used in FLEET combat as its intended role it does need a buff as atm its not enough to distinguish it
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Major Stallion
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 17:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Shouldn't the rest of your fleet fill in for the roles that you are unwilling to fulfill at the time? Like say, take care of enemy support that is pinning you down?
So you can now remove that Neut and the cloak. There are your 2 extra high-slots.
QFT, sorry sok, but you cant have more high slots b/c you wanna fit a cloak and a neut.
You want me to fly without them always? Doubt you even do that when travelling. And theres the flaw: if it were easy to refit upon destination i would have much less to say on the matter.
yeh i understand fitting them for travel, but if you plan on dropping it into a fleet fight, your fleet should be able to fill the roles your asking for extra slots for, no?
If you're flying your mom in a fleet that doesnt have the neut role filled, you are flying with the wrong fleet. Being in Tri, i doubt thats ever the case tbh
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Troye
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.01.23 18:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sokratesz
First off they only have 20 fighters, second, if i had a slot to use for ecm burst, i would. Third, they don't do 'everything better', they are much, much slower and have a significantly shorter jump range.
Keep trolling.
I'm talking about their maximum capacity for fighters, with drone modules in its highs thats 25. I seriously doubt your going to get any kind of boost, CCP have already expressed their desire to nerf the carrier class so your cause is a lost one.
How am I trolling? Am I not allowed to disagree with you.
_______________________________________
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...Even if you win, you're still ********. " |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.23 18:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Troye
Originally by: Sokratesz
First off they only have 20 fighters, second, if i had a slot to use for ecm burst, i would. Third, they don't do 'everything better', they are much, much slower and have a significantly shorter jump range.
Keep trolling.
I'm talking about their maximum capacity for fighters, with drone modules in its highs thats 25. I seriously doubt your going to get any kind of boost, CCP have already expressed their desire to nerf the carrier class so your cause is a lost one.
How am I trolling? Am I not allowed to disagree with you.
You're not exactly being constructive. No-one will give up 5 highslots to get 25 fighter on his mothership. CCP isn't going to nerf them, they want to change them, away from dps, into a support role. And thats exactly what more highslots would allow them to do better.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 06:50:00 -
[19]
I still think they could use a highslot or two.
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Elisa Day
Koshaku
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Posted - 2008.01.24 07:51:00 -
[20]
I'd much rather take another mid on my Aeon.
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Pans Exual
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Posted - 2008.01.24 07:57:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pans Exual on 24/01/2008 07:57:27
Honestly, this is one of the more reasonable requests I've heard made. I wouldn't mind seeing motherships with one extra high slot.
Edit - I think an extra high slot would be far less of a buff than an extra mid or low slot.
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Barthezz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 10:14:00 -
[22]
Actually the Aeon and Wyvern may be able to tank 4-5k dps with T2 mods, but I'm not so sure about a Nyx and Hel, but thats besides the point.
I've always said that motherships miss 'something', CCP gave it the ECM Burst which might be interesting with HIC's these days [even though I feel the whole focused-script for a HIC is way past balance].
But if you look at the bonuses of a mothership, one of its roles is:
Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level
Another is:
99% reduction in CPU need for Clone Vat Bay
Another is:
99% reduction in CPU need for Projected Electronic Counter Measures modules
So you have 2 ms-specific modules(ECM + Clone Vat Bay) and you can fit 6 warfare links. Thats 8 slots already, then you arent even fitting remote repair modules or a triage module.
I actually think that CCP should rethink the bonuses of all the motherships. Give the ship more focus instead of giving bonuses which make it jack-of-all-trades.
If anything I'd like to see carriers move more towards logistics and motherships more towards combat (even more yes, its really not that hard to kill a solo mothership). This means re-doing some of the bonuses of both the carriers and motherships, but it would also mean a clear and defined difference between the two.
And for everyone saying "you need moar support", fine but whats "enough support"?
The problem with that question is that the answer is always the same, enough support is simply put, more people then the enemy has (anything less means your support gets killed, you get killed and you didnt have enough support).
At that time the other question becomes, how valuable is a mothership once it becomes a blob fest?
Just some questions for ya.
For me personally a mothership has always been a ship which can turn the tide in smaller battles (<20 people) as thats where its current bonuses shine, this however then results in the possibility of getting blobbed. Thats what happened to my Nyx last year, such is life but I used it the way i felt it had to be used, not part of an omg blob but also not as a solo pwn mobile.
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Dont be a victim of what I do to survive! |
nameless oats
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Posted - 2008.01.24 10:20:00 -
[23]
I'm sure the 3 ships you've killed with it qualify you for this thread.
If you get 2 extra highs will you start fielding it more? Hard to collect the 5b bounty on it dying (those darn tris don't want to do it that cheap) if you don't.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 10:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: nameless oats
I'm sure the 3 ships you've killed with it qualify you for this thread.
If you get 2 extra highs will you start fielding it more? Hard to collect the 5b bounty on it dying (those darn tris don't want to do it that cheap) if you don't.
Buhu? I've had it for three weeks, and its not like TRI has been in much action since i got it. Besides, i've got other things to do than jump it all across the universe to get a few cheap ganks.
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Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
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Posted - 2008.01.24 11:27:00 -
[25]
I just had a thought.
This game needs more supercaps.
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Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
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Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.01.24 11:30:00 -
[26]
no
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.24 11:59:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Steve Hawkings
no
How about you post something constructive?
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo
I just had a thought.
This game needs more supercaps.
As far as i'm aware the amount of supercaps in-game has been steadily decreasing since the introduction of HICs. 3 moms down just in a week and counting. The suggested changes will do nothing to promote more moms being built, just to make them more effective at whats CCP wants them to do.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:01:00 -
[28]
Motherships and titans should both have the maximum 8/8/8 configuration, added to that bonus' and special abilities to set them apart.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Alyth
Gallente
Dichotomy
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:04:00 -
[29]
I agree with most of your points here Sok, even if you are a smelly Tri monkey 
I'm about a month from hopping into my Thanatos and I'm hard pressed to think of any reason, except more fighters, to even contemplate going for a Nyx. They are basically the same ship with a couple of extra slots for 15-20x the cost. They don't do anything better than their smaller brethren except when e-war is prevalent and even then that can be countered by going into triage mode.
Actually while typing this I did think of one advantage in that they can provide logistics and fighter cover at the same time. That's not much for the (rather hefty) price tag, especially considering that gives you the choice of keeping yourself or one of your gangmates alive given the high-slot sacrifices you'd have to make to do so. I'd gladly drop a remote rep for a remote ECM burst/smartie/cloak given the choice of letting a gangmate lose a 200m bs or me losing a 20 odd billion isk mothership.
So basically yeah, more highslots for motherships if you want them to effectively fulfill their intended roles.
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La KeepS
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Posted - 2008.01.24 12:06:00 -
[30]
Nyx 8/8/8
deploy 25 fighters per level
5% all resist per level.
5% to smartbombing range per level.
works for me :)
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