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Ecliptical
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:25:00 -
[1]
U know, I noticed one thing they other day, say u're flying a maller, or any other cruiser, a blackbird comes along jamms u and scrambles, u're dead nothing u can do abou it. However in any ship that has missile launchers, u can just load up some F.O.F and maybe make the atacker run, or even worse kill them.
Now there are a lot of missile boats in this game, like ravens, blackbird, kestrel, caracal, notice a pattern? All caldari.
Now Would it be nice of if u had some sort of F.O.F ammo, or even like a crystal for beams.
IF it did very reduced dmg (like fof missiles), but at least allowed u to do sommthing?
It would be nice for it to be a solution.
What does everyone think? I'm just offering some thoughts I had, please no flamming and I'm not whining, I use F.O.F missiles miself, dont want them changed, I'm just sayin that outside of that and drones aint nothing u can do.
SO let me know what u guys think,
Ecliptical
moved to ships and modules -Eris Discordia
"They call me WitchDoctor Lifter of CURSE's"
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:37:00 -
[2]
 Quote:
It would be nice for it to be a solution.
What does everyone think? I'm just offering some thoughts I had, please no flamming and I'm not whining, I use F.O.F missiles miself, dont want them changed, I'm just sayin that outside of that and drones aint nothing u can do.
"Word" on the streets is changes to ECM (in Shiva I think) will nerf ECM so jamming isn't so complete. Of course with missiles being a less than stellar weapon (other threads on that) and the Raven, Scorp, Blackbird, Caracal and Kestrel largely reliant on one or both of those two things Caldari ships look to get creamed in the near future with the nerf bat. Too soon to tell I guess...just hope the Devs are thinking abou that.
And of course a response to a jamming ship is to not get jammed. Fit mods that protect you from EW or get you a lock faster and jam or damp the other guy first. Seems like many people don't want to be bothered with that and fit other stuff instead and then wonder why they get owned. 
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Foomanshoe
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:40:00 -
[3]
How does that make sense?
Not to mention you'd get the best of both worlds on battleships. Pretty much immune to EW, no collisions, wrecking hits, instant hits, no defense against your attacks.
I dont think so...
Last thing we need is to make caldari ships more useless, not to mention making electronic warfare completely useless.
Use back-ups and ECCM if you keep getting jammed. Thats what they are their for.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:42:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Xelios on 25/03/2004 00:47:03
I seem to remember in late beta there were 'tracing bullets' or something along those lines. They were esentially a different type of ammo and while I never did find out what they do maybe they were a sort of FOF thing? But yeah Eclip, I've never liked how ECM works, it's too black and white. If you can jam the guy, he's screwed, if you can't most of the time you're screwed (in a Caldari ship). I hope the changes coming in with Shiva will put in more of a grey area, partial jamming and things like that.
Quote:
Last thing we need is to make caldari ships more useless, not to mention making electronic warfare completely useless.
Useless? Scorpions are INVALUABLE in battle. The things are EW monsters that can easily lock down 2 or 3 enemy battleships. Not to mention they can be shield tanked like nothing else. They may not have as much firepower as other battleships, but that doesn't matter when your opponent can't target, move or warp.
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Tar om
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:46:00 -
[5]
Surely the flipside of being able to equip all those turrets is the inability to equip missiles? Just equip eccm mods.
Tar om
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tank CEO
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:51:00 -
[6]
I disagree on the matter, Almost every ship has a missile launcher ship, fit a launcher and keep FOF missiles. But in EVE reality I guess, dont htink a FOF Turret is possible, if your jammed, ur jammed. I disagree on this idea, and im not a jammer either. Fit on Anti-jamming equipement, you have well then enough low slots to do so. The way it is now imho is balanced.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:52:00 -
[7]
Quote:
And of course a response to a jamming ship is to not get jammed. Fit mods that protect you from EW or get you a lock faster and jam or damp the other guy first. Seems like many people don't want to be bothered with that and fit other stuff instead and then wonder why they get owned.
Count the midslots on Amarr vessels. They can NOT NOT get jammed really 
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a history |
Monica Scuro
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:54:00 -
[8]
ECM has countermeasures already. Drones will still attack, and fof missiles still hit. So do smart bombs. Also the ship with the jammers on is weaker then a normally set ship as it has those mid slots full of the jammers.
Why can i ask does jamming need making less effective? If it doesnt stop the enemy from targetting you then it is wholly pointless no? Its fine as it is, people just need to learn to counter it. (Though i know this is nearly impossible for most if a scorp is jamming, but isnt this how it should be if an ew battleship has you locked down)?
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Trevedian
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:56:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Trevedian on 25/03/2004 00:59:17
Eclip makes a good point... Despite the countless posts by people whining about how Caldari ships are so underpowered (which is utter nonsense!) they are still used with great frequency in PVP. This is a great example of something that should really receive some attention from the Devs. If Caldari ships were really that bad at PVP then no one would use them.
I'd like to see lasers that do damage of another type other that EM/Heat damage... Everyone uses EM/Heat hardners now so lasers serve a very narrow purpose. Hybrids and projectiles can do different types of damage so why not lasers?
Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
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Imperishable
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:59:00 -
[10]
what if blackbird carries jammers and passive targeter?
FOF won't save your ass then
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.03.25 01:07:00 -
[11]
Quote:
ECM has countermeasures already. Drones will still attack, and fof missiles still hit. So do smart bombs.
Maller: 100 drone bay, no missiles. Can not fit a smartbomb that really hurts. Dead duck maller 
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a history |
shakaZ XIV
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Posted - 2004.03.25 01:43:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Quote:
ECM has countermeasures already. Drones will still attack, and fof missiles still hit. So do smart bombs.
Maller: 100 drone bay, no missiles. Can not fit a smartbomb that really hurts. Dead duck maller
..and low cpu so fitting backup arrays kind of hurts the effectiveness quite badly. Then again, everyone fits to jam battleships so to "unjam" a cruiser you would have to fill almost all slots with ECCM 
Btw, where are the tech2 radar and ladar arrays?
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Czar Marcus
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Posted - 2004.03.25 02:52:00 -
[13]
Each cruise missle costs 5000 isk. Each large bullet costs 50 isk. Can you see the reason one doesn't need a lock?
Guns are supposed to have locks, it wouldn't make sense to release an FOF bullet. If you're going into combat, fit your ship with warp stabilizers so you can leave a combat situation in the case that your lock is scrambled.
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Ris Dnalor
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Posted - 2004.03.25 02:58:00 -
[14]
a little off topic but notta bunch off topic...
Do remote sensor boosters exist? & if so are the blueprints on the market?
Just curious, as I have used remote sensor DAMPENERS... & NON-remote sensor boosters... I've seen reference to the remote ones, but never seen one in-game.
tralala
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Jump Drive Operation / Rank 5 / SP: 1280000 of 1280000
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Skillz
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Posted - 2004.03.25 03:51:00 -
[15]
Yes, just end all RP. Make Amarr = Caldari.
Keep on flaming, lamers.
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Silv
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Posted - 2004.03.25 04:50:00 -
[16]
Just no. Missiles have serious drawbacks, and one of the advantages is FOF.
Your problem seems to hinge on the fact you are trying to use a cruiser to fight. Cruisers really have no place in fleet combat right now. (BB is an oddball exception) It's sad, but the truth, and thats the core problem. Not F.O.F. missiles.
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2004.03.25 05:25:00 -
[17]
I personally think you should still be able to shoot someone while being jammed, but your optimal and falloff ranges should be reduced to zero. So essentially you'd manually point your guns in the enemy's general direction and hope for a lucky hit... 
Perhaps setting optimal to zero and falloff to 10% normal or something (or a fixed range based on turret size) would be even better. After all, if I'm 100 meters away from a huge battleship do I really NEED a targeting lock to hit it?
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.03.25 07:49:00 -
[18]
Quote:
what if blackbird carries jammers and passive targeter?
FOF won't save your ass then
Yes they will. Passive only allows you target without the other guy knowing about it. As soon as you make an offensive move against the guy the target loack becomes known. FoF missiles track on those who have made aggressive (e.g. shot at you) moves. Want to stay safe from FoFs just don't shoot at the guy. Target lock alone with or without passive won't see an FoF go for you.
I think many people are unclear on how hard it is to jam enemy ships. A Scorpion can jam no more than two battleships. A Blackbird can jam two battleships as well but in most setups will get just one. This assumes the enemy is using NO ECCM to counter the jammers and the jamming ships are ideally setup to specifically jam a given race. Admittedly cruisers and definitely frigates have little to no chance at stopping a dedicated jammer via ECCM.
The downside to jamming ships is they are generally weak in other regards. Jamming sees them be slower and do less damage output than other ships. Not to mention they are generally wimpier targets and go down faster. From experience I know Blackbirds pop all too easily. Given their potential to jam they are often a primary target in any fleet engagement (at least Blackbirds are as they can be dangerous to battleships but can be gotten rid of comparatively quickly).
As for shield tanking a Scorp it is an either/or sort of thing. They cannot shield tank and jam at the same time. It is all one way or the other for them. What's more, CCP is looking at ways as we speak to seriously nerf shiled tanking ability. You can still do it to an extent but its power looks to be greatly reduced in the near future.
If you cannot stop from being jammed via ECCM you still have options. FoF missiles, drones in some cases and sbombs are a possibility. Your options don't stop there though. If you are a cruiser or frigate you have faster lock times than a battleship. Use a sensor damper or two. Add sensor booster to further lower your lock time. In short, get to make your move before the other guy and do things that hamper/stop their ability to hurt you.
Bottom line ther are many possibilities. Those caught by jammers are simply unprepared. Eve is about tradeoffs. Prepare to counter jammers and you are weaker offensively and/or defensively. Prepare to be uber tank or uber damage dealer and leave yourself open to jammers that may stop you cold. No right or wrong...you take your best guess and go for it. Sometimes you guess right and other times you guess wrong. Such is the way of things and overall it is good.
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.03.25 07:55:00 -
[19]
*cough* tech 2 backup arrays
against non existant tech 2 jammers = teh w1n
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.25 08:10:00 -
[20]
ECCM are mostly lo-slot.
You get a lot of turrets + lo-slots as a balance for Caldari lack of lo-slots and lack of firepower.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
SlightlyMad
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Posted - 2004.03.25 08:21:00 -
[21]
The reason some people whine about that caldari/raven are "underpowered" is that they want to use them as 1on1 powerdreadnaughts. And, they are not..
Caldari rely on jammin and incapacitation of the enemy. They are not "weaker" than other battleships. They just have a different playingstyle. Although, the Raven is a bit underpowered maybe (maybe). You don't get that much extra power compared to the less ECM capability to the scorp.
We have yet to see what Shiva will introduce. I just hope that it is thoroughly tested. Because any flaws, mistakes, or any alternate fitting not considered; will be found and exploited by the cunning EVE-crowd
*
-"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo |
SlightlyMad
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Posted - 2004.03.25 08:23:00 -
[22]
ohh yeah..
About the "FoF crystal" idea.
Thats just wierd and would provide an unatural way of compensating for ecm...
*
-"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo |
Ecliptical
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Posted - 2004.03.25 09:21:00 -
[23]
I guess u guys completly misunderstood my point, I'm NOT ASKING FOR CHANGES, I asked u guys what u thought of it...
As far as know how to counter ECM, iut's not a majot problem really, just fit 4 low slot race specific backup arrays (+2) and u're done... That wasn't what I was talking about...
U guys are hilarious sometimes... I was trying to just create a discussion, instead I get the "LEARN HOW TO COUNTER ECCM" and such, please C'mon guys...
And no I'm not trying to use a cruiser to fight either as it was mentioned...
I did however just use it as an example...
So here is what I was trying to say... Maybe make an FOF type AMMO that would be usefull, not something like screaming fast to fire and with no cost to ya....
Maybe LIKE "FOF" Crystal, increases energy cost of a tachy by like 50energy per shot, decreases ROF by 80%, does like 50% of the dmg of a radio crystal, and such...
Thats what I mean, btw same would go for ammo and like that, also make it expesive enough to make the ammo, so that it's harder to get.
Is that better to understand?
Ecliptical
"They call me WitchDoctor Lifter of CURSE's"
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.25 09:43:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 25/03/2004 09:48:23
Quote:
Caldari rely on jammin and incapacitation of the enemy
Wrong - only 3 Caldari ships are capable of ECM.
Griffin, Blackbird, Scorpion.
Please don't generalise about Caldari based on those 3 ships.
Caldari are meant to be the most pvp-orientated race, have the best technology (from Jovians) and therefore should have the premiere battleships - the Raven.
Unfortunately, the Raven is nothing more than a lame duck, critically weakened by it's primary weapons being pretty much unsuable.
Sorry for going off-topic, MASS-guy 
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Punto
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Posted - 2004.03.25 12:02:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Punto on 25/03/2004 12:05:41
Raven unusable? Have you even USED it?
Caldari ships are just fine. Go watch all them eve videos out there where people are hunting down their victims...in guess what? SCORPS! Yeah...that Piece of $hlt is the most common used ship for PVP yet it is the worst for it...hmmm...Are you sure you got your story straight?
And I went 1vs1 against a corpmate in my Apoc (he was in a Raven) and that ship has massive damage potential at mid range. by the time I got his shields down, he was half way into my armor!
Seems pretty unusable to me!
Primary weapon takes 0 ... yes ZERO cap...so all of its Cap goes to defence.
Yeah, pertty unusable to me!
When jammed, it can still fire all of its primary weapons at the enemy.
Yeah, pretty unusable to me!
Enough with this Caldari Wahh Wahh!
All i hear is "I want to be able to render other ships useless (jamming)in my Scorp and deal the same amount of damage as all other tier 2 battleships!"
Yeah, whatever...
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Brent Steel
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Posted - 2004.03.25 15:06:00 -
[26]
The whole idea of a F.O.F missle is that the targetting electronics are in the missle. It's the ship that is jammed not the missle, so you just throw it out and switch it on and let the missle do the rest. How would you get targeting electronics in a laser beam or an unpropelled projectile how would it change it's trajectory in space? We need to keep some connection to the physics of the universe. Backup systems and anti jamming technology are the only way to realistically reduce the impact of jamming.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.25 15:11:00 -
[27]
Quote:
And I went 1vs1 against a corpmate in my Apoc (he was in a Raven) and that ship has massive damage potential at mid range. by the time I got his shields down, he was half way into my armor!
Try using a Raven in a real fight and see how useless missiles are.
Oh, and I do know a tiny bit about fighting in a Scorpion.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.03.25 15:19:00 -
[28]
The raven is not useless! it deals a lot of dmg and the only problem i see is in stupid long range fleet battles where u r about 100km from ur enemy, which is not the ravens fault though!!
"We brake for nobody"
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.03.25 15:22:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Edited by: Punto on 25/03/2004 12:05:41
Raven unusable? Have you even USED it?
Caldari ships are just fine. Go watch all them eve videos out there where people are hunting down their victims...in guess what? SCORPS! Yeah...that Piece of $hlt is the most common used ship for PVP yet it is the worst for it...hmmm...Are you sure you got your story straight?
And I went 1vs1 against a corpmate in my Apoc (he was in a Raven) and that ship has massive damage potential at mid range. by the time I got his shields down, he was half way into my armor!
Seems pretty unusable to me!
Primary weapon takes 0 ... yes ZERO cap...so all of its Cap goes to defence.
Yeah, pertty unusable to me!
When jammed, it can still fire all of its primary weapons at the enemy.
Yeah, pretty unusable to me!
Enough with this Caldari Wahh Wahh!
All i hear is "I want to be able to render other ships useless (jamming)in my Scorp and deal the same amount of damage as all other tier 2 battleships!"
Yeah, whatever...
Scorps are heavily used in PvP because they can shield tank better than any other ship. The ability to shield tank is headed for a fairly serious nerf. Linkage posted by TomB
Missiles are supposedly due for a serious overhaul as well. CCP has already increased the training requirments (small step admittedly). Presumably missiles will be more specific in what they can and cannot hit. So, say, a cruise missile will nto be able (generally) to hit a frigate. While this change may be sensible and missile overhauls needed the overall effect will be to nerf what effectivness missile boats currently enjoy. (NOTE: It is still unclear what all the changes will be so take that with a lump of salt)
Electronic Warfare is likewise getting an overhaul. Again this may overall be a needed change (maybe) but again the bottom line is a nerf to EW ships...most notably the Scorpion and Blackbird. Linkage to post on this by TomB
Down the road T-II cruisers will be introduced one of which may well be an anti-missile destroyer. Cool in principle but again makes life that much harder for missile ships.
Try and make sense of the silly ship bonuses (such as the Raven) Caldari get.
Try and make sense of the Scorpion being the smallest battleship out there but with the largest signature radius.
Try and make sense of the Blackbird being described in CCP's own description as a small cruiser being the heaviest cruiser in EVE.
Finally, yes, if you sit around waiting for a cruise missile to hit you every three seconds from a nearby Raven it is going to hurt. Your own fault for sitting there and sucking that up. Use Defenders, sbombs or just scoot and then come back. You should have plenty of time to do that. Pop the Raven a few times with your big guns (that are instahit) then leave again and come back. The end result may be a draw but choosing between that and death the correct choice shuold be obvious.
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Punto
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Posted - 2004.03.25 15:43:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Punto on 25/03/2004 15:45:38
I agree that missiles do need an overhaul. They need to increase their speed and they should only be able to hit frigs if it is sitting still or going really slow basically. They need to address the fact that a single salvo of missiles from 1 ship can easily blow up a cruiser. Then renders cruisers even more useless than they already are against BS's.
However, they also need to un nerf lasers. Either up the damage potential to make the cap loss/grid requirements worth it or decrease the cap requirments.
4250 powergrid for a single laser that uses 90+ cap a shot while only doing em/therm damage is not a good weapon in PVP!
1400's are the in thing right now...not because they are fasionable but because CCP seems to want people to use them. Low fitting requirements, no cap use, heavy hitting with massive range make up for the low ROF. I'll take that over lasers anyday...unless I'm rat hunting.
Rails are also a nice alternative to lasers. I can fit more 425's on my apoc than I can Tachs. For tachs I have to use RCU's while with Rails I only need a couple CPU's. I won't do as much damage as a Mega but I'll do more sustained damage with rails than I will with Tachs/Mega Beams! Its a load of crap that people keep comparing the damage on lasers to the other weapons when you can't fit as many lasers as you can other weapons and they use more than double the cap! 
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