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Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:46:00 - [1] so... a "perfect" rorq pilot is basically little more than a battlecruiser pilot when it comes to passing on his bonus undeployed, no? so what "really" happens with his siege mode? the link modules get boosted by up to 25% - sounds a lot... however... considering the mindlink and perfected skills, a battlecruiser can reduce his comrades' cycle time (i like the other modules a lot aswell, but for the sake of tidyness i'll just go for the money! ^^) by 22.5%. or iow, miners get 29.03% more per minute/hour/whatever. with the rorq in deployed mode, the gang module delivers -28.125% cycle time. iow again, that's 39.13% more over just a plain hulk pilot with a mindlink. comparing both gang module effects (sieged rorq vs unsieged/battlecruiser), that's 1.3913 / 1.2903 = roughly 1,0783 congratulations... you bought a 1.6-2.0bil ship instead of a battlecruiser, skilled it to V and have it eat (granted; cheap) heavy water all day for 7.83% more mining amount (6.16% for cap indy IV) don't get me wrong; the bugger has it's uses (jumping 120k+ cargo around: more than carriers could back when) and compression can be a neat thing in a (very) few cases - i like having it around. but it somehow isn't _the_ mining supporter. we don't have that many juicy belts around (anymore), so when we go to a neighbouring system, one guy just grabs a BC/CS instead of cyno'ing the tractor-beam-machine in. so, humm, how about bumping it up to "10% per level when deployed" or always 5%/lvl (or both)? - putting the gist back into logistics
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:55:00 - [2] Yeah, the bonus could use some tweaking. Even in a very large gang it's not very useful. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Alishia Bowen	Posted - 2008.01.24 06:18:00 - [3] Edited by: Alishia Bowen on 24/01/2008 06:19:22 Make the current gang bonuses work regardless of siege mode would fix some of the problem. When deployed it should give massive bonuses to the gang modules, we're talking 100% ish, as this isn't just some noob ship, it's supposed to be 'the' gang miner's capital beast. As it stands right now tho, the ship is close to total ass for anything but jump hauling.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Clearspace Operations Carpe Diem.	Posted - 2008.01.25 06:59:00 - [4] Clone bay? U have one?
Siltan	Posted - 2008.01.25 09:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Megan Maynard Clone bay? U have one? Ive heard they suck, you come out missing arms and stuff. Altough it is failrly usefull if you couple it with a carrier, any idea if theres a limit to the number of clones a clone bay can carry?
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:58:00 - [6] Originally by: Siltan Originally by: Megan Maynard Clone bay? U have one? Ive heard they suck, you come out missing arms and stuff. Altough it is failrly usefull if you couple it with a carrier, any idea if theres a limit to the number of clones a clone bay can carry? I've never tried it, but I've been told it's somewhere around a dozen clones. Keep in mind all of the general PITA problems with using the clone bay though, and the fact that the Rorq is 2x-3x more expensive than a carrier. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Clansworth Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.25 20:52:00 - [7] Posted this in the skills section, but i'll repost it here as it seems to apply. Mining Foreman Skill (ore yield bonus) Mining Foreman I: 2% Mining Foreman II: 4% Mining Foreman III:6% Mining Foreman IV: 8% Mining Foreman V: 10% Mining Forman Mindlink 15% Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optomization (cycle time bonus) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Warfare Link Specialist skill level . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . I . . . . .II . . . . . III . . . . . IV . . . . . V Mining Director I: . . 2%. . .2.2%. . 2.4% . . .2.6% . . .2.8%. . .3.0% Mining Director II: .. 4%. . .4.4%. . 4.8% . . .5.2% . . .5.6%. . .6.0% Mining Director III: . 6%. . .6.6%. . 7.2% . . .7.8% . . .8.4%. . .9.0% Mining Director IV:. . 8%. . .8.8%. . 9.6%. . 10.4%. . 11.2%. . 12.0% Mining Director V:. . 10% . 11.0% .12.0%. . 13.0%. . 14.0% . 15.0% Direct V w/implant: 15% . 16.5% .18.0%. . 19.5% . . 21.0% . 22.5% Therefore, with all three skills at V, your gang can effectively pull in 40.875% more ore, vice 32.25% without the implant. Now, the maxed pilot gets in a deployed Rorqual: Capital Industrial Ships I: 23.625% Capital Industrial Ships II: 24.75% Capital Industrial Ships III: 25.875% Capital Industrial Ships IV: 27.0% Capital Industrial Ships V: 28.125% So overall, the new maxed mining director, could actually cause teh gang to produce 47.34% more ore. Prospector Class
Clansworth Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Verite Rendition I've never tried it, but I've been told it's somewhere around a dozen clones. Keep in mind all of the general PITA problems with using the clone bay though, and the fact that the Rorq is 2x-3x more expensive than a carrier. The Rorqual's clone bay can hold 6-10 clones (based on Clone Facility Operation skill). However, since the Rorqual's SMA can only hold 5 hulks, this is sufficient. If you are really wanting a mobile fleet, the 40-61 clone Mothership is what you really want. :-) Prospector Class
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises Space Exploration and Logistic Services	Posted - 2008.01.26 11:22:00 - [9] Clone Vat Bays need some serious love - they just don't work at the moment for what they need to do to make this viable.
Frisky Minx Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.26 11:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Siltan Originally by: Megan Maynard Clone bay? U have one? Ive heard they suck, you come out missing arms and stuff. Altough it is failrly usefull if you couple it with a carrier, any idea if theres a limit to the number of clones a clone bay can carry? I've never tried it, but I've been told it's somewhere around a dozen clones. Keep in mind all of the general PITA problems with using the clone bay though, and the fact that the Rorq is 2x-3x more expensive than a carrier. Just what are the problems with using a clone bay on these?
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.26 13:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Frisky Minx Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Siltan Originally by: Megan Maynard Clone bay? U have one? Ive heard they suck, you come out missing arms and stuff. Altough it is failrly usefull if you couple it with a carrier, any idea if theres a limit to the number of clones a clone bay can carry? I've never tried it, but I've been told it's somewhere around a dozen clones. Keep in mind all of the general PITA problems with using the clone bay though, and the fact that the Rorq is 2x-3x more expensive than a carrier. Just what are the problems with using a clone bay on these? I'd say the biggest problem is that people have to install their clones on the thing ahead of time, so if you don't already have a clone there tough luck (and it means you've left your body and now have a jump clone somewhere else that you need to get rid of). Then there's the fact you're stuck in place while the clone vat is operational. People don't use these things for a reason, it's not worth the trouble. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises Space Exploration and Logistic Services	Posted - 2008.01.27 10:55:00 - [12] The real problem with the Clone Vat bay is that it's a one-way trip. You cannot use it like a 'proper' Jump clone facility. You need a spare Clone slot - you go to the Rorqaul/Mom with the active bay - you install a clone. When the ship has arrived you can jump to it. You then have a clone on site to use - but it has no implants unless you take them - and you CANNOT put it back in the Clone Bay. You have to fly it away, or jump later and destroy it, before starting again. Clone Vat Bays need to have extra coding so you can keep a proper clone there and use it to jump to and fro. THEN we'll see Rorq's and Moms used well. If we can have that 'one' clone with a less than 24hr timer so you can jump, do op, and return - then we're really cooking

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:57:00 - [13] It can and should get an update and review in the future. There is nothing specific planned yet until we review capital ships as a whole alongside 0.0 logistics such as the recent asteroid belt overhaul blog of mine will affect how 0.0 logistics might be conducted in the future along with a look at the prevalence of cyno jammers as another factor to look slightly at the bigger picture a little. But yes, the rorqual should get a review which will hopefully look at focusing its role a little more when we have had chance to look at all the other factors around the use of the rorqual.

Montaire Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.29 01:54:00 - [14] If you want to solicit ideas I can think of worse people than myself or Verite Rendition. I think I may be the only character in EVE with Capital Industrial to 5. If you want some ideas on where to take this, I can think of a few people that can give you PLENTY of good ones. Originally by: CCP Chronotis It can and should get an update and review in the future. There is nothing specific planned yet until we review capital ships as a whole alongside 0.0 logistics such as the recent asteroid belt overhaul blog of mine will affect how 0.0 logistics might be conducted in the future along with a look at the prevalence of cyno jammers as another factor to look slightly at the bigger picture a little. But yes, the rorqual should get a review which will hopefully look at focusing its role a little more when we have had chance to look at all the other factors around the use of the rorqual.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.01.30 01:28:00 - [15] Given the Rorqs skill requirements, cost, and fuel comsumption, the siege bonus should be upped to 10% per level, and the 5% should always be present. You NEED to be able to jump FROM clone bays, as well as TO clone bays. Then the rorq becomes a nifty mobile mining platform. This helps out motherships as well. Should always have a reason to use the rorq tho...as it is, if you have less then like 10 hulks in the gang, the command ship becomes a more cost effective option, no fuel use, no cyno requirements, less skilling, ect. Originally by: Meridius Dex I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.30 22:40:00 - [16] Edited by: Gaogan on 30/01/2008 22:41:40 Originally by: Clansworth Therefore, with all three skills at V, your gang can effectively pull in 40.875% more ore, vice 32.25% without the implant. No, your math is wrong, the other guy got it right. A 22.5% decrease in cycle time equates to a ~29% increase in ore over time, not 40%. Originally by: Clansworth Now, the maxed pilot gets in a deployed Rorqual: Capital Industrial Ships I: 23.625% Capital Industrial Ships II: 24.75% Capital Industrial Ships III: 25.875% Capital Industrial Ships IV: 27.0% Capital Industrial Ships V: 28.125% So overall, the new maxed mining director, could actually cause teh gang to produce 47.34% more ore. Again, wrong math. 28.125% lower cycle time = ~39% more ore per unit time, not 47. The bonus does seem a bit week, especially when you consider that it only works in deployed mode, where the other bc/command ships have no such requirement. How about giving it 5% all the time, with an additional 5% in industrial mode?
Clansworth Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.31 02:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Gaogan No, your math is wrong, the other guy got it right. A 22.5% decrease in cycle time equates to a ~29% increase in ore over time, not 40%. Damn inverted math... anyways, I was wrong, but i was also calculating the combined effect of both the yield AND cycle bonus, to illustrate the effects of the implant... new numbers for combined effect: _______________Yield_________________Cycle Time________________ Mining Foreman 1:... 2% Mining Foreman 2:... 4% Mining Foreman 3:... 6% Mining Foreman 4:... 8%.....................Warfare Link Specialist................. Mining Foreman 5:. 10%................1..........2...........3..........4..........5...... Mining Director 1:... 10%.... 2%... 2.2%... 2.4%.... 2.6%... 2.8%.... 3.0% Mining Director 2:... 10%.... 4%... 4.4%... 4.8%.... 5.2%... 5.6%.... 6.0% Mining Director 3:... 10%.... 6%... 6.6%... 7.2%.... 7.8%... 8.4%.... 9.0% Mining Director 4:... 10%.... 8%... 8.8%... 9.6%.. 10.4%...11.2%...12.0% Mining Director 5:... 10%.. 10%.. 11.0%..12.0%.. 13.0%...14.0%...15.0% Foreman Mindlink:.. 15%.. 15%.. 16.5%..18.0%. 19.5%.. 21.0%... 22.5% So maxxed non-rorqual bonus would be: ( 1 + 0.15 ) / ( 1 - 0.225 ) = 1.484 -> _48.4%_ With the Rorqual:..... Cycle Time Capital Industrial 1:..... 23.625% Capital Industrial 2:..... 24.750% Capital Industrial 3:..... 25.875% Capital Industrial 4:..... 27.000% Capital Industrial 5:..... 28.125% So the maxxed mining director, in a maxed rorqual: ( 1 + 0.15 ) / ( 1 - 0.28125 ) = 1.60 -> _60%_ So the Maxxed Rorqual would provide a _7.8%_ improvement ( 1.60 / 1.484 = 1.078 ) over the same pilot in a battlecruiser. Harldy worth the massive cost and risk, if all you are wanting is this bonus. New Prospector Class
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.01.31 05:07:00 - [18] I think the Rorqual is fine. My (small) corp's entire 0.0 operation depends on a single Rorqual to work. - Grants good mining bonuses. Sure, not much better than a BC but its other uses more than make up for it. - Clone bay lets us get to and from our out-of-the-way NPC-sov system without having to through the intervening hostile sov space. (self-destruct pod to get back to Empire) - Compression lets us move our primary product (dark glitter) back into Empire to sell, and it has the space to bring supplies out.
Clansworth Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.31 06:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Mankirks Wife I think the Rorqual is fine. My (small) corp's entire 0.0 operation depends on a single Rorqual to work. - Grants good mining bonuses. Sure, not much better than a BC but its other uses more than make up for it. - Clone bay lets us get to and from our out-of-the-way NPC-sov system without having to through the intervening hostile sov space. (self-destruct pod to get back to Empire) - Compression lets us move our primary product (dark glitter) back into Empire to sell, and it has the space to bring supplies out. I think everyone agrees that the Rorqual does some amazing things to mining logistics, and noone (here) is saying that it is a bad ship, just that the bonus provided to the mining links is pretty insignificant, especially considering the requirements. Command Ships provide bonuses to their specific links for a LOTless cost and MUCH less skillage. Not to mention they don't have to go into deployed mode and get put at a tactical disadvantage. Simply put, The 5-25% bonus should be effective at all times, regardless of being in Industrial mode or not. Some suggest that if you ARE in industrial mode, that you get a higher bonus (10-50%?). I feel the Industrial Core should affect the industrial systems on the ship, and don't see how it should be tied to the gang links. New Prospector Class

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