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Polux	Posted - 2004.03.25 11:07:00 - [1] I have been hearing people talking about missiles not doing enough damage. I think they are right in a way. LetÆs take the torpedoes for example. 450 damage in EMP, Heat, Kinetic and Explosive. LetÆs see how the damage output is when the missiles hit opponents shield and armor. EMP does 450 HP damage. Almost everyone in PVP uses at least one EMP hardeners and that cuts the damage down to 225 HP to shield and then later it will be doing 180 to the armor. Heat does 375 HP damage. With one shield hardener it will be only 135, and armors have about the basic 35% resistance to the heat and the damage will be about 333. Every ship that is set up for PVP has there way if defense. Most of us either tank the armor or shield, others put there trust into ECM. When we look at this from the damage site no missile will be doing more then 50% of there basic damage when it hits the target. I could go on with all day but clearly you must see that the damage isnÆt enough even if we have 4-6 launchers launching at a time. I look at this from the Caldari view. Minmatar right now have reticules power. They have high damage output turrets and enough launcher hard points to fill the battlefield with missiles. Makes you think how the **** the Amarr could enslave them. Because of all there launchers itÆs hard to give more power to missiles without giving Minmatar more power wish isnÆt needed at the time. In the resent CAP nerv we Caldari might find it more difficult to hold our advance shield tanking possibilities because of CAP recharge rate boosters now hurts our shield. The best way to give the Caldari there advantage in missile deployment would be through either ship or racial bonus. More damage? More Speed? Both of them are needed. Missiles donÆt do instant damage, they have to fly sometimes 60 km to hit the target. Therefore makes them bad choice for gate camping where you need to be quick to take out the ship. Personally I think all missiles should get a little damage boost. That boost should be like 20-30% of the now standing damage and it should be on all missile types doing explosive damage. Every missile has to explode right??? Sorry for any spelling errors or if the calculations are wrong. I did the best I could
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.03.25 11:26:00 - [2] Scorpion should get a dmg bonus and Raven should get a ROF bonus. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Coreantes	Posted - 2004.03.25 11:35:00 - [3] I always say: "One of the ships will win eventually..." Its the same as: "with BS is the best" and say there is no "best" BS.... every situation is differant... space, time, ship, loadout, skills, your personal feelings... AND ofcourse luck... As you said, if everyone with PvP combat should use shieldhardners, ALL (missle) damage will be cut in half on both sides, but shields still go down at the end, it will just take longer... I dont think we need changes... ---------------------------------------------- ...Good is only skin deep, but evil is dead down to the bone...
Darkwolf	Posted - 2004.03.25 11:41:00 - [4] Nobody complains about the DAMAGE of missiles. People complain about their uselessness in long-range combat, because in spite of their speed, they STILL take way too long to be useful at the crazy ranges fights happen at now. They need some kind of MWD to let them close range FAST, and then drop to normal cruising speed.
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2004.03.25 11:44:00 - [5] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 25/03/2004 11:45:48 Quote: I have been hearing people talking about missiles not doing enough damage. I think they are right in a way. LetÆs take the torpedoes for example. 450 damage in EMP, Heat, Kinetic and Explosive. LetÆs see how the damage output is when the missiles hit opponents shield and armor. EMP does 450 HP damage. Almost everyone in PVP uses at least one EMP hardeners and that cuts the damage down to 225 HP to shield and then later it will be doing 180 to the armor. Heat does 375 HP damage. With one shield hardener it will be only 135, and armors have about the basic 35% resistance to the heat and the damage will be about 333. Every ship that is set up for PVP has there way if defense. Most of us either tank the armor or shield, others put there trust into ECM. When we look at this from the damage site no missile will be doing more then 50% of there basic damage when it hits the target. I could go on with all day but clearly you must see that the damage isnÆt enough even if we have 4-6 launchers launching at a time. Remember that the damage resistances affect other weapons too. You might just as well say that the damage isn't enough even if we have 6 laser turrets firing at a time. At least with missiles you have a choice of which type you load, and so which type of damage you inflict. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.03.25 11:58:00 - [6] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 25/03/2004 12:07:11 The Possible Upcoming SolutionÖ (ripped from EVE-DB) New Bonuses Raven - 5% Cruise Missile Damage and 5% Launcher ROF per level. Scorpion - 5% Cruise Missile Damage and 5% Shields per level. Missile Changes Cruise Missile - 3,000m/s Heavy Missile - 2,500m/s Light Missile - 2,000m/s (Hopefully missiles will become a LOT cheaper..) Altered Skills Standard Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) Heavy Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) Cruise Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) New Skills Missile Bombardment - 5% Flight time per level. Missile Guidance - 5% Agility per level. Missile Navigation - 5% Velocity per level. Conclusion Missiles get a lot faster, they get their agility changed so they don't function very well at short range (slow and sluggish at short range), but function very well at longer range (very agile at at full velocity). They have the ability to hit targets far away, you actually have to train a lot of skills to make missiles effective now. Caldari become the best with missiles, as they do the most damage with them but everyone gets functional missiles now, as far as range is concerned. Minmatar do not become imbalanced offensively because they will now do less damage with missiles than a Caldari ship, yet they are still a lot better with turrets than Caldari. Anyways I think this is the best solution, hopefully these changes will go live. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
fras	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:00:00 - [7] It's a very tight line to walk and imo any fixes should be dealt with in Caldari Battleship bonuses. I know this isn't what's happening, but you speed up missiles you are speeding up dot which is virtually the same as damage. Do frigate and cruiser missile boats need more damage? Does the Typhoon or Tempest need more damage? I don't think so personally.
Siddy	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:03:00 - [8] Quote: Edited by: Jim Raynor on 25/03/2004 11:59:57 The Possible Upcoming SolutionÖ (ripped from EVE-DB) New Bonuses Raven - 5% Cruise Missile Damage and 5% Launcher ROF per level. Scorpion - 5% Cruise Missile Damage and 5% Shields per level. Missile Changes Cruise Missile - 3,000m/s Heavy Missile - 2,500m/s Light Missile - 2,000m/s (Hopefully missiles will become a LOT cheaper..) Altered Skills Standard Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) Heavy Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) Cruise Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) New Skills Missile Bombardment - 5% Flight time per level. Missile Guidance - 5% Agility per level. Missile Navigation - 5% Velocity per level. [Conclusion] Missiles get a lot faster, they get their agility changed so they don't function very well at short range (slow and sluggish at short range), but function very well at longer range (very agile at at full velocity). They have the ability to hit targets far away, you actually have to train a lot of skills to make missiles effective now. Caldari become the best with missiles, as they do the most damage with them but everyone gets functional missiles now, as far as range is concerned. Minmatar do not become imbalanced offensively because they will now do less damage with missiles than a Caldari ship, yet they are still a lot better with turrets than Caldari. Anyways I think this is the best solution, hopefully these changes will go live. i love it -------------------------------------------
Shevar	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:26:00 - [9] Edited by: Shevar on 25/03/2004 12:41:17 I think it sucks, unless they make it so that cruise/heavy missles arent agile enough to hit mwd frigates... Because well, 4 cruisemissles at 6.2 km/s and you got a very dead frigate -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:41:00 - [10] Quote: I think it sucks, unless they make it so that cruise/heavy missles arent agile enough to hit mwd frigates... Because well, 4 cruisemissles at 5km/s and you got a very dead frigate I guess you missed the agility part. A webifier makes for a very dead frigate too, should we remove them as well? How about heavy drones? How about large energy neutralizer? Or a shot from a turret at long distance, where tracking hardly factors? There's many ways to kill frigates. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Nafri	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:42:00 - [11] well i think/fear Scorps need EW Bonus with the upcoming EW-Changes Wanna fly with me?
Shevar	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:48:00 - [12] Yeah but this is a bit extreem, nearly all mostly used bs's usually have 2 missle launchers anyways. And with 2 vollies you got a dead frigate (as for drones, besides the bug that they keep on firing once they started they are fine). Basicly these missle changes will make frigates die instantly after getting locked no matter at what distance you are, instead of dying instantly after being webber (which requires you to be so dumb to get within 10 to 15 km of the bs). Im sorry but this will just make all sort of frigates totally worthless again, heck even frigate vs frigate fights cant be won anymore by frigates that dont got 3 missle launchers. With these changes I would even go 1:1 with my breacher against any interceptor without missle slots... -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:49:00 - [13] Quote: Yeah but this is a bit extreem, nearly all mostly used bs's usually have 2 missle launchers anyways. And with 2 vollies you got a dead frigate (as for drones, besides the bug that they keep on firing once they started they are fine). Basicly these missle changes will make frigates die instantly after getting locked no matter at what distance you are, instead of dying instantly after being webber (which requires you to be so dumb to get within 10 to 15 km of the bs). Im sorry but this will just make all sort of frigates totally worthless again, heck even frigate vs frigate fights cant be won anymore by frigates that dont got 3 missle launchers. With these changes I would even go 1:1 with my breacher against any interceptor without missle slots... I guess you missed the part where I said you missed the agility changes part, perhaps you should read the post instead of making assumptions. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:51:00 - [14] Quote: Edited by: Jim Raynor on 25/03/2004 12:07:11 The Possible Upcoming SolutionÖ (ripped from EVE-DB) New Bonuses Raven - 5% Cruise Missile Damage and 5% Launcher ROF per level. Scorpion - 5% Cruise Missile Damage and 5% Shields per level. Missile Changes Cruise Missile - 3,000m/s Heavy Missile - 2,500m/s Light Missile - 2,000m/s (Hopefully missiles will become a LOT cheaper..) Altered Skills Standard Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) Heavy Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) Cruise Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) New Skills Missile Bombardment - 5% Flight time per level. Missile Guidance - 5% Agility per level. Missile Navigation - 5% Velocity per level. Conclusion Missiles get a lot faster, they get their agility changed so they don't function very well at short range (slow and sluggish at short range), but function very well at longer range (very agile at at full velocity). They have the ability to hit targets far away, you actually have to train a lot of skills to make missiles effective now. Caldari become the best with missiles, as they do the most damage with them but everyone gets functional missiles now, as far as range is concerned. Minmatar do not become imbalanced offensively because they will now do less damage with missiles than a Caldari ship, yet they are still a lot better with turrets than Caldari. Anyways I think this is the best solution, hopefully these changes will go live. I need new pants. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Shevar	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:54:00 - [15] Edited by: Shevar on 25/03/2004 12:56:53 Edited by: Shevar on 25/03/2004 12:55:55 Quote: Missiles get a lot faster, they get their agility changed so they don't function very well at short range (slow and sluggish at short range), but function very well at longer range (very agile at at full velocity). They have the ability to hit targets far away, you actually have to train a lot of skills to make missiles effective now. Okok let me rephrase what i said then... Frigates die instantly after the missle spent 10 seconds getting up to speed, then turn around and kill you. Also you didnt mention anywhere how agility would change, the only thing that I could make out of your post: Cruise missles will be 2.07 times the speed and will be 20% more agile and will have 20% more flight time then current cruise missles. Sure the accelerating will be a tad bit longer but really, with 20% more agility it wont matter much... -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.03.25 12:59:00 - [16] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 25/03/2004 13:04:34 Quote: Edited by: Shevar on 25/03/2004 12:56:53 Edited by: Shevar on 25/03/2004 12:55:55 Quote: Missiles get a lot faster, they get their agility changed so they don't function very well at short range (slow and sluggish at short range), but function very well at longer range (very agile at at full velocity). They have the ability to hit targets far away, you actually have to train a lot of skills to make missiles effective now. Okok let me rephrase what i said then... Frigates die instantly after the missle spent 10 seconds getting up to speed, then turn around and kill you. Also you didnt mention anywhere how agility would change, the only thing that I could make out of your post: Cruise missles will be 2.07 times the speed and will be 20% more agile and will have 20% more flight time then current cruise missles. Sure the accelerating will be a tad bit longer but really, with 20% more agility it wont matter much... If they have low agility they will not be able to reach top speed very quickly (if at all) while turning trying to keep up with a frigate. Same way your battleship will never reach full velocity if you continue to attempt changing directions. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Andrew Jade	Posted - 2004.03.25 13:05:00 - [17] Aye at first i was like ah crap my rifter is gonna suck again, but agility is the key, a rifter constantly turning will still be fine, dodging in and out of missiles. Shevar stop whining and use some skill -AJ- WTB: Large faction smartbomb with good range. Top isk paid.
Shevar	Posted - 2004.03.25 13:05:00 - [18] We'll see what they change about em. Anyways if thats the case then you might want to rephrase this part: Quote: slow and sluggish at short range), but function very well at longer range (very agile at at full velocity But also note something with a top speed of 6.2 km/s will accelerate fast (just assuming the missle skills at lvl4, which most people will get fast if these changes will come into effect), no matter how "low" its agility is (which can even be upgraded by 20% by getting a new skill to lvl4...). But anyways ill stop whining in this thread about a change that hasnt been implemented yet, nor is even officially announced yet. Ill just start again if it becomes appearant that cruisemissles/heavy missles can catch frigates. -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Sun Ra	Posted - 2004.03.25 13:24:00 - [19] Why not have large missles be fast have have low agility all the time
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.03.25 13:51:00 - [20] Quote: Edited by: Jim Raynor on 25/03/2004 12:07:11 The Possible Upcoming SolutionÖ (ripped from EVE-DB) New Bonuses Raven - 5% Cruise Missile Damage and 5% Launcher ROF per level. Scorpion - 5% Cruise Missile Damage and 5% Shields per level. Missile Changes Cruise Missile - 3,000m/s Heavy Missile - 2,500m/s Light Missile - 2,000m/s (Hopefully missiles will become a LOT cheaper..) Altered Skills Standard Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) Heavy Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) Cruise Missiles - 5% Standard Missile Velocity (light/heavy/cruise) New Skills Missile Bombardment - 5% Flight time per level. Missile Guidance - 5% Agility per level. Missile Navigation - 5% Velocity per level. Conclusion Missiles get a lot faster, they get their agility changed so they don't function very well at short range (slow and sluggish at short range), but function very well at longer range (very agile at at full velocity). They have the ability to hit targets far away, you actually have to train a lot of skills to make missiles effective now. Caldari become the best with missiles, as they do the most damage with them but everyone gets functional missiles now, as far as range is concerned. Minmatar do not become imbalanced offensively because they will now do less damage with missiles than a Caldari ship, yet they are still a lot better with turrets than Caldari. Anyways I think this is the best solution, hopefully these changes will go live. It would solve the trouble for BSs, but would make caldari cruisers and frigates way too powerful. 5x heavy launchers on a cruiser with cruise missiles traveling 6km/s is the end of all non caldari cruisers. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.03.25 13:56:00 - [21] Quote: It would solve the trouble for BSs, but would make caldari cruisers and frigates way too powerful. 5x heavy launchers on a cruiser with cruise missiles traveling 6km/s is the end of all non caldari cruisers. It would take a lot of training to get cruise missiles up to 6km/sec.. a LOT. Even if that is the case (though I don't see why no one complains about a Thorax throwing 8+ heavy drones at another cruiser, which it can, plus it's damage bonus on hybrids). Keep in mind only Caldari battleships would get a cruise missile damage bonus, as the cruise missile skill, is now just velocity, so in a way, it's a nerf to smaller ships using cruise missiles. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Shevar	Posted - 2004.03.25 14:04:00 - [22] Not that long... Most people have standard and cruise at 4 that leaves you with the equivalent of getting a rank10 skill to 4 (500k sp), thats a bit more then a week training... -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Sun Ra	Posted - 2004.03.25 14:04:00 - [23] Actually why not just change the current torps as they arent all that useful in fleet battles. High speed, long range, low agility at all speeds and maybe a smaller splash area.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.03.25 14:08:00 - [24] Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 25/03/2004 14:09:42 a cruise missile should never ever be able to hit a frigate with mwd! there is a reason why u have heavy/light missiles and drones dont u think? "We brake for nobody"
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.03.25 14:09:00 - [25] Quote: a cruise missile should never ever be able to hit a frigate with mwd! Why not? I've it's not like a large turret can not hit and instantly kill a frigate at 40km. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Shevar	Posted - 2004.03.25 14:13:00 - [26] Yeah but unless its speciffically set up for ganking frigs he will have alot of troubles getting one (relying on wrecking hits basicly). The part that worries me would be that missles would be basicly sure fire ways to dispatch frigates. Another point to note is that both cruisers and frigates can use cruisemissles with relative ease but cant use heavy guns... (and no im not asking that to be changed since that would totally screw up frigs with missle slots, since the small missles, well, stink) -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.03.25 14:15:00 - [27] Quote: Quote: It would solve the trouble for BSs, but would make caldari cruisers and frigates way too powerful. 5x heavy launchers on a cruiser with cruise missiles traveling 6km/s is the end of all non caldari cruisers. It would take a lot of training to get cruise missiles up to 6km/sec.. a LOT. Even if that is the case (though I don't see why no one complains about a Thorax throwing 8+ heavy drones at another cruiser, which it can, plus it's damage bonus on hybrids). Keep in mind only Caldari battleships would get a cruise missile damage bonus, as the cruise missile skill, is now just velocity, so in a way, it's a nerf to smaller ships using cruise missiles. That's probably cause drones would take well over 2 minutes to cover 60km and engage ( if they keep their current engagement range ) and their damage is not that great, I fly a blaster rax 8 heavy drones would give me a <20% damage increase, not really all that impressive. The ability to engage at 60km and do almost BS lvl damage using a cruiser however... and yes a Thorax can do BS lvl damage as well, but it has to be within 5km to be able to do it, not 60km. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.03.25 14:16:00 - [28] Quote: Yeah but unless its speciffically set up for ganking frigs he will have alot of troubles getting one (relying on wrecking hits basicly). The part that worries me would be that missles would be basicly sure fire ways to dispatch frigates. Another point to note is that both cruisers and frigates can use cruisemissles with relative ease but cant use heavy guns... Frigates should = light missiles Cruiser should = heavy missile Battleship should = cruise missile IMO. Quote: (and no im not asking that to be changed since that would totally screw up frigs with missle slots, since the small missles, well, stink) So why not make light missiles better? In all honesty, MWD so imbalances combat bleh.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Polux	Posted - 2004.03.25 14:49:00 - [29] Quote: Remember that the damage resistances affect other weapons too. You might just as well say that the damage isn't enough even if we have 6 laser turrets firing at a time. At least with missiles you have a choice of which type you load, and so which type of damage you inflict. And every turret is doing two types of damange. And projectiles are somtime doing 3 (not sure if they do that allways).
Shevar	Posted - 2004.03.25 15:23:00 - [30] Quote: And every turret is doing two types of damange. And projectiles are somtime doing 3 (not sure if they do that allways). But then again you got 6 missle launchers on a raven? So just put 1 dmg type each in the launchers, and you can do all dmg types equally. Sounds better to me then using ammo (and most usuable ammo's got only 2 types of dmg, also note you cant really use diffrent ammo types at the same time since optimals and dmg ammounts will differ something you dont have using missles). (note though i would personally go for a mix of kinetic/em/thermal and switch the em to expl when you got his shields down and your launcher needs reloading) -------- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs

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