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Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
571
   |
Posted - 2012.02.13 02:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone. Can't find what you are referring to. But I think I KNOW what you are referring to. The Drones should already be out and repairing the Mack anyway all the time while mining. No need to have them 'waiting' in the hold for an emergency.
Last I checked you cannot self repair with drones. |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
207
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 02:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone. Can't find what you are referring to. But I think I KNOW what you are referring to. The Drones should already be out and repairing the Mack anyway all the time while mining. No need to have them 'waiting' in the hold for an emergency. Last I checked you cannot self repair with drones.
aye, you're correct, unless this has changed recently.
Save the Miners! |
Supercon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 02:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
Note: I am an experienced miner hiding behind an alt for my own protection.
Anyways, I am already more than capable of flying a well-tanked, go-sod*****-yourself Hulk. But with the recent buff in destroyers and the introduction of the tier 3 battlecruisers, I realized that flying a Hulk that can muster an incredible 27-28k tank has become pointless as all the gankers have to do is bring an couple of extra dessies. Of course, I don't fit any faction/name mods on my ship so that the Hulk wouldn't be as enticing.
Of course, given my adaptation, I have not lost a single Hulk in my entire career accept for that one instance when I was moving my Hulk and I failed to check my faction standings with the Gallente Federation (that was years ago).
Since Crucible, I have noticed that my own truly-tanked mining-related vessel I have is the Orca. Mustering an awesome-sauce EHP of 265k-268k along with overheated tank mods and fleet boosts, the Orca is (bar non) the most toughest ship of it's class for high-sec miners. And this is not including faction/named mods. Of course, the Rorqual will top that (hands down). But we are talking about mining in systems where the Rorqual is not allowed to enter.
And with the fact that anything in the ore hold and corporate hangar bay are completely lost in the ensuing destruction of the ship and with the fact that typical T2 (non-faction, non-named mods) are providing this level of protection and are not worth much in the market compared to their expensive equivalents, a well-tanked Orca's sole purpose is to make any gank attempts as expensive as possible so that very little to no profit is made from the gank.
Even if the gankers are in it for the lols (which means they will no doubt gank at a loss anyways), the Orca will make sure that it flips the angry bird at the gankers knowing that it served its purpose well while going down in flames. |
Valentyn3
17
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 03:13:00 -
[34] - Quote
Supercon wrote:Note: I am an experienced miner hiding behind an alt for my own protection.
Anyways, I am already more than capable of flying a well-tanked, go-sod*****-yourself Hulk. But with the recent buff in destroyers and the introduction of the tier 3 battlecruisers, I realized that flying a Hulk that can muster an incredible 27-28k tank has become pointless as all the gankers have to do is bring an couple of extra dessies. Of course, I don't fit any faction/name mods on my ship so that the Hulk wouldn't be as enticing.
Of course, given my adaptation, I have not lost a single Hulk in my entire career accept for that one instance when I was moving my Hulk and I failed to check my faction standings with the Gallente Federation (that was years ago).
Since Crucible, I have noticed that my own truly-tanked mining-related vessel I have is the Orca. Mustering an awesome-sauce EHP of 265k-268k along with overheated tank mods and fleet boosts, the Orca is (bar non) the most toughest ship of it's class for high-sec miners. And this is not including faction/named mods. Of course, the Rorqual will top that (hands down). But we are talking about mining in systems where the Rorqual is not allowed to enter.
And with the fact that anything in the ore hold and corporate hangar bay are completely lost in the ensuing destruction of the ship and with the fact that typical T2 (non-faction, non-named mods) are providing this level of protection and are not worth much in the market compared to their expensive equivalents, a well-tanked Orca's sole purpose is to make any gank attempts as expensive as possible so that very little to no profit is made from the gank.
Even if the gankers are in it for the lols (which means they will no doubt gank at a loss anyways), the Orca will make sure that it flips the angry bird at the gankers knowing that it served its purpose well while going down in flames.
I'm pretty sure that as long as your net loss is still higher than theirs they will keep coming no matter how hard or unprofitable you make it.
You can't put a price on Epeen.
Frequent squinting even in low light? You may be showing early signs of Brock Eye Syndrome. Talk to your doctor today. |
Sandra Vellocet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 04:29:00 -
[35] - Quote
Mike712 wrote:If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk.
[Rokh, Mining Rokh]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Co-Processor II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Survey Scanner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Large Drone Mining Augmentor II
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Mining Drone II x5
That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously?
Huh ?!
|
Donald MacRury
LankTech
Multitaskers.
7
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 07:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
Do ECM drones actually work? and what would they do for a miner against a ganker? |
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
459
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 07:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mike712 wrote:If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk.
[Rokh, Mining Rokh]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Co-Processor II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Survey Scanner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Large Drone Mining Augmentor II
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Mining Drone II x5
That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously?
Really? You can pull 6000+ m3 in 2min 5sec with this setup? Cuz I can with my hulk. All V's in related skills, the two +5% to mining yield implants and Orca support (with all V's in related skills). What do you get again? Can you strip a belt in two hours with two mining battleships? Didn't think so. So before you go around shooting your mouth off, nothing out bulk mines a hulk, its what it was designed to do. You wanna be safe while mining in hisec, good luck. EVE is all about pvp, combat, industry, market warfare. Industrial ships are just that, designed with industry in mind, not combat. The tank on exhumers and mining barges are to allow you time to get out of trouble. If you can't figure out how to use d-scan when someone enters local, you deserve to get popped. Mining in a battleship. And a Rokh at that. You've reduced that magnificent ship to mule status. You're friends should just shoot you themselves.
Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.
-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á And some days, you're just a man with a gun. |
Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 08:49:00 -
[38] - Quote
Here is the thing,
- Ice mining is maybe the worst profession in EVE ISK/h wise.
- It's kinda boring and more of a "passive" thing you do in between
- Ice miners have no other option as Mack, Hulk and for some few Orca. Many seems to be aware what risk they are taking.
EVE is evolution in fast forward, especially in PvP you have to adapt. If you have bad fits you are killed more often, if you have a bad tactic you are killed more often, either you adapt/learn or you will be killed more often simple as that.
The same rule applies to ice miners, in bad fits you are ganked more often.
This is what i don't get, although many ice miners seems to be aware of the risk there is no action. If i'm aware i'm doing a risk profession in EVE with less rewards i would try to avoid any unnecessary losses. There are 2 standard fits for Macks, one with mining upgrades in low slots and only 7k EHP, the other with cargo expander and about 13k tank (boosted up to 18k). The first one will give you more yield per min but it has a bigger risk, the second one is more safe, less yield with a little less risk. A human has two options, mine "active" with more yield and react to any threat or be more "passive" with the second one.
The Hulk or Orca is an upgrade to more safety but why not more ice miners socialize and build/join a mining corp setup mining ops with an Orca as mining booster and a dedicated Tengu shield booster (As ice belts are stationary, buy/build a POS in that system and the boosters are 100% safe, even wardecs won't bother you because of the recent policy changes CCP made)
You never will be 100% safe from ganking but with the described setup you can rule out the dumb gankers and force them to get more numbers, but getting more numbers is effort. You see? My conlcusion from my personal experience is that highsec and the false assumption it's safe let you stop thinking or is infested by bots otherwise i can't explain so many bad fits i saw on Macks.
Many described the new Tier 3 BC as the new ganking ship, that is only partly true. The Tier 3 BC in particular the Tornado are used as Alpha ships, you need them in higher security systems like 0.7 and up. In lower sec system 0.5 and 0.6 the DPS variant of Destroyer and Tier 2 BC are used and better. With Tier 3 BC you are barly cost effective against Macks as 1 Tornado has about 9k Alpha Damage any semi good Mack fit has that EHP. The Destroyers are the ships which you can do profitable ganking with.
Donald MacRury wrote:Do ECM drones actually work? and what would they do for a miner against a ganker?
ECM Drones won't work vs any Alpha ship like Tornado as you will be dead before you can react. They can be used vs Cane/Brutix and Destroyers but you have to be active and you have to know that ECM is chance based so you may or may not jam the ship you are targeting. As a rule of thumb, 5 ECM Vespa Drones easily jam a Destroyer, 5 ECM Hornets should do the trick on Destroyers most times too. The Problem is if any smart ganker sees your ECM Drones he will react accordingly. |
Parthonax
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 09:09:00 -
[39] - Quote
Mining itself isn't the problem , the problem is in my opinion is that the general perception of most people that mining is being done by bots
This is certainly true if you are talking about ice mining , the whole icemining proces is slow and relative boring , it is just screaming for a macro
Different is ore mining there are plenty of people out there trying to make a living with several accounts or small groups of people mining away , i can imagine that after a stressful day att work watching your stripminers chew rock can be relaxing , for others relaxing means blowing things up
For ice mining macros ,one of the better solutions is to move all ice in a new kind of grav site , that is big enough and that can last a few hours or a day but that needs to be scanned out daily , it will initially make ice much more expensive but atleast people using macros will find their current bot useless , also make the rats in those grav sites harder and more of them , macks can't tank well
For ore mining , a small mentallity change is needed and some minor game mechanics changes, rmoving or replacing roguedrone droppings will go a long way to help the mining carreer but is only one step , maybe also a bit more grid and pcu to fit a better tank just ideas that have been floating around for years on these forums , but a new mining barge, no i don't see the point of that unless you want to restrict it to low or nullsec
The main challenge for CCP is to make mining again into a important , respected and much needed profession
so this is permanence |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 09:28:00 -
[40] - Quote
Mike712 wrote:If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk.
[Rokh, Mining Rokh]
[...] snip [...]
That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously?
EFT says the ore yield on that Rokh is 891, versus 1209 for a hulk with t1 crystals.
The thing is with mining, the odds of getting ganked are low enough that tanking doesn't make sense from a purely rational (expected net ISK per hour) standpoint.
By odds I mean the normal odds. Sometimes the odds can change. Perhaps during hulkageddon a mining battleship has a better net ISK per hour. On the other hand some people would just see a mining Rokh as a challenge.
|
Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 09:32:00 -
[41] - Quote
Just some numbers so maybe some miners will adapt.
Alpha Tornado
Damage output is about 9k
0.5 system
Concord needs about 16s to react.
Thrasher All V (no imps)
You can get out 8 volleys from 200mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1k volleys.
Damage output is 8k.
Catalyst All V (no imps)
You can get out 8 volleys from Light Neutron Blaster. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.16k volleys.
Damage output is 9.3k.
Cane All V (no imps)
You can get out 8 volleys from 420mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.7k volleys.
Damage output is 13.7k
Brutix All V (no imps)
You can get out 6 volleys from Neutron Blaster. Wiith a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 2.5k volleys.
Damage output is 15.3k
0.6 system
Concord needs about 9s to react.
Thrasher All V (no imps)
You can get out 5 volleys from 200mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1k volleys.
Damage output is 5k.
Catalyst All V (no imps)
You can get out 5 volleys from Light Neutron Blaster. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.16k volleys.
Damage output is 5.8k.
Cane All V (no imps)
You can get out 5 volleys from 420mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.7k volleys.
Damage output is 8.5k
Brutix All V (no imps)
You can get out 4 volleys from Neutron Blaster. Wiith a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 2.5k volleys.
Damage output is 10k
So with a decent Mack fit you are safe against any solo ganker in a 0.6 system. Draw your own conclusions. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
137
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 10:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:Draw your own conclusions.
It only takes 2 - 3 destroyers to take out a Mack at an assest loss ratio of around 10:1
Plex in an afternoon by attacking soft targets.
Ganking was favoured in Crucible due to dessie improvements and new alpha BC's cheaper than BS.
OP might be trying to bait Orca's?
Ganking of soft targets needs an effective bounty hunter system in order to afford an effective responce to criminal acts and give some credance to consideration of "adaption" for the ganker. |
Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions
Bloodbound.
321
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 15:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:. Lasting effect i would say.
What you don't know is that they probably moved somewhere else. Net effect - you sitting there wasting your time thinking you had a major victory.
It's like the AFK cloakers we get out here in drone space. They keep bragging about all the economic damage they are doing yet somehow the industry index levels don't seem to be dropping at all... and when one does, they fail to notice all those new industry 1 and 2 systems that pop up.
But to each their own. If thinking you have forced several people offline is fun for you - then by all means go ahead. |
Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
13
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 15:45:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Jori McKie wrote:. Lasting effect i would say. What you don't know is that they probably moved somewhere else. Net effect - you sitting there wasting your time thinking you had a major victory. It's like the AFK cloakers we get out here in drone space. They keep bragging about all the economic damage they are doing yet somehow the industry index levels don't seem to be dropping at all... and when one does, they fail to notice all those new industry 1 and 2 systems that pop up. But to each their own. If thinking you have forced several people offline is fun for you - then by all means go ahead.
Oh dear.......
I don't care at all who and how many miners are in that system or not or elsewhere when i'm offline and i definitly not let my alt idle there. If i forced some bots to move or log out when i log in, fine and if not, fine either.
I'm not on a hunting, it just happens i ganked some Macks and wrote about the effects. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
571
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 15:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
Op... I love you corp name. Made me chuckle.
Also interesting test.
One I would like to do is see what the smallest ship that could gank a Hulk solo would be in both a .5 and a 1.0 (both ends of the Concord spectrum). |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa
Stark Enterprises
1171
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 17:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
Interesting.
Alas, the boost you get from 1 orca with a ganglink for shields or armor or w/e, isn't enough to save you against the 5 or more destroyers that pounce on you.
If barges were boosted to have the same ehp as a BS without a tank, then I would honesty just shake my head in shame at anybody who moaned about being jihad ganked in their hulks.... |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
110
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 22:09:00 -
[47] - Quote
I have taken to checking ice belts when im around them, mack wrecks give nice intact armor plates sometimes |
Borun Tal
Cubicle Warriors from 'merica
43
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 22:27:00 -
[48] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Tanking a mack is an exercise of futility.
Just put the loss of some ships per year in the balance sheet as "operating costs" and be done with it.
This. +1. Cost of doing business, and keep on truckin'.
|
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
154
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 22:48:00 -
[49] - Quote
Mike712 wrote:If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk.
[Rokh, Mining Rokh]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Co-Processor II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Survey Scanner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Miner II
Large Drone Mining Augmentor II
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Mining Drone II x5
That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously?
Because a hulk gets 900m3 more yeild per minute and anyone using Dcan and an orca wont get ganked. Its not like you can't just wait for the first shot and then dock your ship and warp off in your pod..... .
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
271
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 01:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:Here is the thing,
- Ice mining is maybe the worst profession in EVE ISK/h wise.
- It's kinda boring and more of a "passive" thing you do in between
- Ice miners have no other option as Mack, Hulk and for some few Orca. Many seems to be aware what risk they are taking.
EVE is evolution in fast forward, especially in PvP you have to adapt. If you have bad fits you are killed more often, if you have a bad tactic you are killed more often, either you adapt/learn or you will be killed more often simple as that.
The same rule applies to ice miners, in bad fits you are ganked more often.
Not exactly true. When the tank is toilet paper anyway, giving out a crappy T1 invuln field entices less ganking than a some stupidly expensive setups I have seen around (that were originally copied from Halada's mining guide, without noticing he gave fittings suited for 0.0 rats not for hi sec gimpy rats  )
Jori McKie wrote:
Many seems to be aware what risk they are taking.
Oh they are. If you lose a crappy fit mack and salvage it you have lost about 70-80M. This is about 14-16 hours worth of mining in the worst conditions to pay it back.
Jori McKie wrote:
This is what i don't get, although many ice miners seems to be aware of the risk there is no action. If i'm aware i'm doing a risk profession in EVE with less rewards i would try to avoid any unnecessary losses. There are 2 standard fits for Macks, one with mining upgrades in low slots and only 7k EHP, the other with cargo expander and about 13k tank (boosted up to 18k). The first one will give you more yield per min but it has a bigger risk, the second one is more safe, less yield with a little less risk. A human has two options, mine "active" with more yield and react to any threat or be more "passive" with the second one.
The Hulk or Orca is an upgrade to more safety but why not more ice miners socialize and build/join a mining corp setup mining ops with an Orca as mining booster and a dedicated Tengu shield booster (As ice belts are stationary, buy/build a POS in that system and the boosters are 100% safe, even wardecs won't bother you because of the recent policy changes CCP made)
You never will be 100% safe from ganking but with the described setup you can rule out the dumb gankers and force them to get more numbers, but getting more numbers is effort. You see? My conlcusion from my personal experience is that highsec and the false assumption it's safe let you stop thinking or is infested by bots otherwise i can't explain so many bad fits i saw on Macks.
1) Given the mining ship losses are low enough, sacrificing efficiency costs more than having a ship popped every now and then. There are some basic "rules" (i.e. don't mine during Hulkageddon / Goon people in system), don't mine with orange pilots in belts with gank ships etc. that save the day 95% of the time.
2) Ice miners don't socialize because they are not there to do that. They are socializing in RL / watching TV / cutting grass / playing another game. Otherwise they would not do an AFK, low income profession.
3) You don't get the ganker philosophy. They are enterprising individuals who get a feeling of achievement at popping a thougher "adversary", like a game of cat and mice. There are very few who are really "in" for the ISK.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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