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Can Miners adapt? - A personal observation

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Jori McKie Friends Of Harassment 1	Posted - 2012.02.12 12:08:00 - [1] - Quote I had found a sweet spot for occasiaionally LvL 4 mission running with my alt but i was a little disturbed about the local. 35 peeps in a system everbody would say in the boondocks is understatement. That made me curious and i checked the system and to my surprise there is an Ice Belt filled with Mackinaws. Sure i'm a lowsec pirate but i didn't know anything about highsec ganking so it was time for that experience. To have a slight challenge my goal was to find the smallest ship able to kill a Mackinaw in a 0.5 and 0.6 system and with the latest buff in Destroyer surely they would be a good candidate. So i started my own test runs, to determinate the EHP of different fitted Mackinaws and how many volleys of a specific weapon system could get fired until Concord will show up. For my first gank i started with a 1400mm Arti fitting on a Typhoon and yep the Mackinaw popped and surprisingly the local dropped more or less instantly from 35 to ~15. You can draw your own conclusion for me it was a nice side effect. After some more runs i finally thought i determinated the fitting of a Mackinaw my Trasher, Cane and Tornado can and cannot handle in a 0.5 and 0.6 system. While doing the test runs i was thinking what would i do and how i would fit a Mackinaw to avoid being ganked randomly under the assumption that any ship is gankable even with a bloated tank. My first thought was proper tank fitted mackinaw, my second a fleet booster and miners obviously know about that option because of the Orca but are they using the Orca just to boost mining or more? I was going to find out that soon. I was pretty confident about my knowledge in ganking Mackinaws and the other day i found my next target. A nice tanked Mackinaw to heavy tanked for my Trasher with Condord already in the belt and myself to lazy to get them i out, i jumped into a Tornado. Everything was in position and i fired the guns but something wasn't right that Mackinaw didn't die to my Alpha Tornado. I scanned the surviving Mackinaw again which was in half Armor to check if i missed something but no that fitting used to be gankable with my Tornado. Now i was really curious and i scanned the nearby Orca and hell yes that ship had fitted a "Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II" mod. I smiled and left with the thought, why the hell not more miner just use their Orca for some extra tank boost. That boost gives you at least 2k extra EHP, enough to survive a solo ganker. A Tengu booster with a Mindlink and a good Mackinaw fit can get you up to 18k EHP (no imps) to gank that you need at least 2 Tornados. A booster isn't a small Investition skillwise but you need only one to boost at max 250 miner. Why not more highsec miners get social and combine their resources to be more safe? Is highsec in this regard antisocial because there is no force to adapt and the result is solo running the PvE content (except Incursions) or are highsec peeps just refusing to adapt and insisting the rules have to change so they haven't to adapt the slightest? It is possible to adapt example is the guy which used his Orca to boost his tank.
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 312	Posted - 2012.02.12 12:12:00 - [2] - Quote Jori McKie wrote: I had found a sweet spot for occasiaionally LvL 4 mission running with my alt but i was a little disturbed about the local. 35 peeps in a system everbody would say in the boondocks is understatement. That made me curious and i checked the system and to my surprise there is an Ice Belt filled with Mackinaws. Sure i'm a lowsec pirate but i didn't know anything about highsec ganking so it was time for that experience. To have a slight challenge my goal was to find the smallest ship able to kill a Mackinaw in a 0.5 and 0.6 system and with the latest buff in Destroyer surely they would be a good candidate. So i started my own test runs, to determinate the EHP of different fitted Mackinaws and how many volleys of a specific weapon system could get fired until Concord will show up. For my first gank i started with a 1400mm Arti fitting on a Typhoon and yep the Mackinaw popped and surprisingly the local dropped more or less instantly from 35 to ~15. You can draw your own conclusion for me it was a nice side effect. After some more runs i finally thought i determinated the fitting of a Mackinaw my Trasher, Cane and Tornado can and cannot handle in a 0.5 and 0.6 system. While doing the test runs i was thinking what would i do and how i would fit a Mackinaw to avoid being ganked randomly under the assumption that any ship is gankable even with a bloated tank. My first thought was proper tank fitted mackinaw, my second a fleet booster and miners obviously know about that option because of the Orca but are they using the Orca just to boost mining or more? I was going to find out that soon. I was pretty confident about my knowledge in ganking Mackinaws and the other day i found my next target. A nice tanked Mackinaw to heavy tanked for my Trasher with Condord already in the belt and myself to lazy to get them i out, i jumped into a Tornado. Everything was in position and i fired the guns but something wasn't right that Mackinaw didn't die to my Alpha Tornado. I scanned the surviving Mackinaw again which was in half Armor to check if i missed something but no that fitting used to be gankable with my Tornado. Now i was really curious and i scanned the nearby Orca and hell yes that ship had fitted a "Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II" mod. I smiled and left with the thought, why the hell not more miner just use their Orca for some extra tank boost. That boost gives you at least 2k extra EHP, enough to survive a solo ganker. A Tengu booster with a Mindlink and a good Mackinaw fit can get you up to 18k EHP (no imps) to gank that you need at least 2 Tornados. A booster isn't a small Investition skillwise but you need only one to boost at max 250 miner. Why not more highsec miners get social and combine their resources to be more safe? Is highsec in this regard antisocial because there is no force to adapt and the result is solo running the PvE content (except Incursions) or are highsec peeps just refusing to adapt and insisting the rules have to change so they haven't to adapt the slightest? It is possible to adapt example is the guy which used his Orca to boost his tank. YAWN This is so far off the mark on so many points it's an obvious troll. Wow. See my post about getting rid of these useless Forums...... OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 2812	Posted - 2012.02.12 12:29:00 - [3] - Quote Quite an insightful and thoughtful post on the dynamics of suicide ganking. Ignore the minebeartards - they have nothing useful to contribute as the very thought of people playing dynamically in a sandbox game leaves them frothing at the mouth. +1 GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki

ISD Eshtir Community Communications Liaisons 59	Posted - 2012.02.12 12:35:00 - [4] - Quote Off topic remarks removed, if you do not want to contribute to a thread, just dont post at all. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

rodyas Tie Fighters Inc 339	Posted - 2012.02.12 12:35:00 - [5] - Quote For the orca it can use 3 links. Which 2 are useful for mining and it leaves 1 left. It would be smart to use that for extra tank. But alot of miners dont like to use tanks and would have to for that to work. After that it is more SP to level the siege warfare link, and everyone usually needs more SP, so that could be tricky. Otherwise nice to know and now fear the tornados or talos. Signature removed, CCP Phantom
Tore Vest 207	Posted - 2012.02.12 12:51:00 - [6] - Quote Jori McKie wrote: the local dropped more or less instantly from 35 to ~15. . Do bots have a setting for that ? Highsec carebear... and proud of it
Ptraci StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound. 319	Posted - 2012.02.12 13:12:00 - [7] - Quote Tore Vest wrote: Jori McKie wrote: the local dropped more or less instantly from 35 to ~15. . Do bots have a setting for that ? Yeah humans wouldn't quit at all they would just stay there to be ganked, so definitely must be bots. I love your logic.
Tanya Powers Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 802	Posted - 2012.02.12 13:17:00 - [8] - Quote Ptraci wrote: Tore Vest wrote: Jori McKie wrote: the local dropped more or less instantly from 35 to ~15. . Do bots have a setting for that ? Yeah humans wouldn't quit at all they would just stay there to be ganked, so definitely must be bots. I love your logic. This And also: Tritanium becomes the golden eggs at this very right moment gents so yes keep ganking, the less tritanium will be on market the less titans they will build, at higher prices you'll sell your ships and mods. Excellent. As soon as the ganker start paying his T1 destroyer about 15/20 M Tornados 150/200M with no fittings they will start mining them selves witch would be hilarious
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School 61	Posted - 2012.02.12 13:25:00 - [9] - Quote If they could adapt, they would either stop mining all together or if they really want minerals, they would gunmine against drones.
Jori McKie Friends Of Harassment 3	Posted - 2012.02.12 13:33:00 - [10] - Quote I have no clue, if those guys were actual humans or bots. Any human who paid attention would have seen the message and would have known it' not safe anymore at the latest when they saw the Mackinaw wreck but how many human miners pay attention when they mine? The same can be said about bots not every bot user has set his bot to dock/log out if....... After my ganking run i check the system from time to time with another alt and i never saw local above 35 anymore even not on Sundays and when i log in my ganking alt the local drops at least 3 or more peeps instantly. Lasting effect i would say.
Aqriue Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 469	Posted - 2012.02.12 15:56:00 - [11] - Quote tl;dr OP statement After having seen easy and actually having difficult in destroying one useless ship which should not exist in game other then to bloat killboards and pad egos, I shall now use extra firepower to overcome that slight buffer. I will win, again, again, and again...because exhumers have tight fightings constraints, lack of low/mid slots for tank / +mining mods in the lows....I will never lose That pretty much sums it up. One adapts, the other will adapt and the mining vessels will always be on the bottom losing end of the pool...because they are very easy to kill, cost to high, and destroyed by ships a fraction of the value while having the shittiest payout in isk/hour in game (always lose/lose to be a miner). Hulks/Macks ect need an overhaul so they can fit an adequate tank in the mids + scan module, maybe get rid of those +mining amount modules in the lows which should instead be another skill that gives straight bonus to mining amount, and give it an internal ore only bay (12km3) along with a 500m3 standard bay for crystals (in a sense, its like freighter with high slots and mini-orca bay- sucks up rocks, no expandable cargobay bay).
Prince Kobol 189	Posted - 2012.02.12 16:44:00 - [12] - Quote Not sure what you are saying. Even with a Orca boost it is still very easy to gank a mack. Were talking about a ship that only has what 11 - 13k EHP. With a Hulk you might get up to 27k EHP. If somebody wants to gank you they will and there is very little you can do. When I mine I always watch local and d-scan and fit my ships with a balance of Tank and mining yield. So far touch wood I have not been ganked in a very long time but if I was I would just shrug my shoulders and carry on, no point crying about it as **** happens. As Aqriue said, mining vessels will always be on the losing end simply because there is only so much you can do, were as all the gankers have to do is field 1 more cheap dessie. But this is Eve and if you can not accept that then go play another game.
Paragon Renegade Wyvern Operations 242	Posted - 2012.02.12 17:00:00 - [13] - Quote You make me want to self-harm The pie is a tautology
Mike712 Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 27	Posted - 2012.02.12 17:09:00 - [14] - Quote If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk. [Rokh, Mining Rokh] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Co-Processor II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Survey Scanner II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Large Drone Mining Augmentor II Large Cargohold Optimization I Large Cargohold Optimization I Mining Drone II x5 That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously?
gfldex 317	Posted - 2012.02.12 17:47:00 - [15] - Quote Mike712 wrote: If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk. Are we still talking about ice mining? The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
Ioci Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 74	Posted - 2012.02.12 18:43:00 - [16] - Quote Macki is the exception. As everyone has pointed out, all ships can be suicided and for a barge the colst is much lower than the loss so you build your ISK loss/ killed stats on the killmail farming sites no matter how you do it. With mining I can fit a Veld Domi and mine pretty decent amounts of Trit. Ice, it's barge or bust and the cycle times mean even if you bail on trouble, they have no trouble preventing you from mining. If the root goal is to bankrupt you, keeping you docked up is as effective as blowing up your Macki. It's Lose/ Lose/ Lose for the ice miner.
Skorpynekomimi E.A.D Alliance Omega Vector 113	Posted - 2012.02.12 19:17:00 - [17] - Quote There's always an arms race. Expecting it to always be the same for you is unrealistic. For BOTH sides. Hell. In alliance mining ops, I always noticed my shield going up when the orca's boosts go on. And if you have a dedicated booster separate from the hauler, why not just use a command ship or T3 as booster? This goes for you gankers as well. Gang links!
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 312	Posted - 2012.02.12 19:17:00 - [18] - Quote Mike712 wrote: If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk. [Rokh, Mining Rokh] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Co-Processor II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Survey Scanner II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Large Drone Mining Augmentor II Large Cargohold Optimization I Large Cargohold Optimization I Mining Drone II x5 That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously? Way way way WAY less than a hulk. Another Forum Lie. AND....that idiotic ship cannot mine Ice !! OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 312	Posted - 2012.02.12 19:22:00 - [19] - Quote NO ship in EVE is safe....not even a Titan. I'm just sayin'. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 312	Posted - 2012.02.12 19:26:00 - [20] - Quote Also, if you know your neighborhood, check Local often.....D-scan is USELESS in High Sec......equip Mack with Combat or ECM Drones and shoot out Large Shield Repair Drones from the Orca....and take off when a Brutix appears in system: one can safely survive if not untouched, with at least structure left. No excuse not to be doing these things anyway. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 399	Posted - 2012.02.12 19:42:00 - [21] - Quote Mike712 wrote: If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk. [Rokh, Mining Rokh] That's an excellent fit if you want 10x less cargo and much less productivity for ore mining. So not only do you kill your cycle/extraction rates but now you've introduced 10x more travel time if you're not part of a fleet who can offload the ore for you. But then jetcan mining introduces a whole set of other issues specific to flipping. So your suggestion, while applicable isn't very practical. Miners are left with either low productivity and massive theft or high productivity + travel times for offloads + suicide ganks. But try putting ice harvesters on that.....ooops.....can't. Miners are still fixed to barges which can't be adequately tanked without massively ganking their productivity. Since mining is the LEAST paying occupation in New Eden it's disingenuous to tell them to take a decreased paycheck for what essentially is a net zero gain when tanking. The gankers will just up their DPS which with the new BC's is easily accomplished and for far cheaper than either the Mack or the Hulk. Miners fail to adapt because they cannot adapt in the way that gankers can. There literally aren't the options available to them for which the gankers have a plethora. The only way in which the miners could adapt is for CCP to either manipulate mineral prices to make it more profitable so that non-barge mining vessels become more attractive even with their multiple disadvantages or CCP produces mining barges capable of more tank. The current barges are wet paper bags. Even tanked it's still a moist paper bag. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX!
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 266	Posted - 2012.02.12 19:58:00 - [22] - Quote Tanking a mack is an exercise of futility. All you get is less efficiency all the time, while the suicide ganker will just need to bring in 1 more thrasher / catalyst for those 10 seconds he needs. Just put the loss of some ships per year in the balance sheet as "operating costs" and be done with it. Jori McKie wrote: I have no clue, if those guys were actual humans or bots. Any human who paid attention would have seen the message and would have known it' not safe anymore at the latest when they saw the Mackinaw wreck but how many human miners pay attention when they mine? The same can be said about bots not every bot user has set his bot to dock/log out if....... After my ganking run i check the system from time to time with another alt and i never saw local above 35 anymore even not on Sundays and when i log in my ganking alt the local drops at least 3 or more peeps instantly. Lasting effect i would say. I'll give you several clues. Why does anyone mine? Certainly not for the fat income. In fact it's because it's as close to a passive activity as it gets, only rivalled by BPO research and PI. Therefore people who can spare a PC at the office or wherever, can just recycle their research / PI / invention / datacore alts into something using the same stats: mining (the alternative is to leave them rot inside a station). Now, "passive" means that the miner - expecially the ice miner - really do that. Therefore they warp a mack to a belt, turn on the lasers and then go away / alt tab + play another MMO or just watch TV / paint try (both more interesting than mining). When the mining noise ends - after 13-18 minutes later, the guy alt tabs back and goes to empty the ship and restart. Therefore here it is the explanation why they are not that reactive when you talk to them: they are just not there. And no, they don't care if they get 1 ship popped a month, watching TV / paint dry is still much better. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 312	Posted - 2012.02.12 20:09:00 - [23] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Tanking a mack is an exercise of futility. All you get is less efficiency all the time, while the suicide ganker will just need to bring in 1 more thrasher / catalyst for those 10 seconds he needs. Just put the loss of some ships per year in the balance sheet as "operating costs" and be done with it. Yup....this.....and Shield Repair Drones and FLEEING are about it. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 266	Posted - 2012.02.12 20:10:00 - [24] - Quote Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Krixtal Icefluxor Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd 312	Posted - 2012.02.12 20:12:00 - [25] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone. Can't find what you are referring to. But I think I KNOW what you are referring to. The Drones should already be out and repairing the Mack anyway all the time while mining. No need to have them 'waiting' in the hold for an emergency. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity"
baltec1 589	Posted - 2012.02.12 20:42:00 - [26] - Quote Tore Vest wrote: Jori McKie wrote: the local dropped more or less instantly from 35 to ~15. . Do bots have a setting for that ? Theres an app for that
David Grogan The Motley Crew Reborn 301	Posted - 2012.02.12 23:57:00 - [27] - Quote Jori McKie wrote: I had found a sweet spot for occasiaionally LvL 4 mission running with my alt but i was a little disturbed about the local. 35 peeps in a system everbody would say in the boondocks is understatement. That made me curious and i checked the system and to my surprise there is an Ice Belt filled with Mackinaws. Sure i'm a lowsec pirate but i didn't know anything about highsec ganking so it was time for that experience. To have a slight challenge my goal was to find the smallest ship able to kill a Mackinaw in a 0.5 and 0.6 system and with the latest buff in Destroyer surely they would be a good candidate. So i started my own test runs, to determinate the EHP of different fitted Mackinaws and how many volleys of a specific weapon system could get fired until Concord will show up. For my first gank i started with a 1400mm Arti fitting on a Typhoon and yep the Mackinaw popped and surprisingly the local dropped more or less instantly from 35 to ~15. You can draw your own conclusion for me it was a nice side effect. After some more runs i finally thought i determinated the fitting of a Mackinaw my Trasher, Cane and Tornado can and cannot handle in a 0.5 and 0.6 system. While doing the test runs i was thinking what would i do and how i would fit a Mackinaw to avoid being ganked randomly under the assumption that any ship is gankable even with a bloated tank. My first thought was proper tank fitted mackinaw, my second a fleet booster and miners obviously know about that option because of the Orca but are they using the Orca just to boost mining or more? I was going to find out that soon. I was pretty confident about my knowledge in ganking Mackinaws and the other day i found my next target. A nice tanked Mackinaw to heavy tanked for my Trasher with Condord already in the belt and myself to lazy to get them i out, i jumped into a Tornado. Everything was in position and i fired the guns but something wasn't right that Mackinaw didn't die to my Alpha Tornado. I scanned the surviving Mackinaw again which was in half Armor to check if i missed something but no that fitting used to be gankable with my Tornado. Now i was really curious and i scanned the nearby Orca and hell yes that ship had fitted a "Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II" mod. I smiled and left with the thought, why the hell not more miner just use their Orca for some extra tank boost. That boost gives you at least 2k extra EHP, enough to survive a solo ganker. A Tengu booster with a Mindlink and a good Mackinaw fit can get you up to 18k EHP (no imps) to gank that you need at least 2 Tornados. A booster isn't a small Investition skillwise but you need only one to boost at max 250 miner. Why not more highsec miners get social and combine their resources to be more safe? Is highsec in this regard antisocial because there is no force to adapt and the result is solo running the PvE content (except Incursions) or are highsec peeps just refusing to adapt and insisting the rules have to change so they haven't to adapt the slightest? It is possible to adapt example is the guy which used his Orca to boost his tank. tl'dr version: i need to pad my killboard by ganking mackinaws.... nothing new to see here Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Duvida The Scope Gallente Federation 37	Posted - 2012.02.13 00:26:00 - [28] - Quote This was actually constructive. I was expecting a 'how dare people like something that I don't like' thread, but not something as well put together as this. (Even though I'd be on the receiving end of the gank) One thing, I didn't think that someone could use their own armor and shield drones on their own ship? At least I haven't seen it done. On someone else's ship, I could see that in a mining operation.
Jori McKie Friends Of Harassment 7	Posted - 2012.02.13 00:57:00 - [29] - Quote David Grogan wrote: tl'dr version: i need to pad my killboard by ganking mackinaws.... nothing new to see here Mabye i didn't made it clear, i ganked with my mission running alt not with my main (this char) that was about 3weeks ago. I don't take part in the ganks my corp mates currently doing, they are on their own mission. I will leave the rest for you to figure out yourself.
leich Sad Panda'z Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns 15	Posted - 2012.02.13 00:58:00 - [30] - Quote as a ganker i would say please adapt. The harder your make it for me to kill you the more challange you provide the more enjoyable the ganking is. Ive mentioned this before in other posts currently i think it is a little to easy. You can jump in from low sec warp to a belt and catch not only the miner but his pod. Care bear tears fill me with glee but i want to work for those tears.
Corina Jarr Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built 571	Posted - 2012.02.13 02:10:00 - [31] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone. Can't find what you are referring to. But I think I KNOW what you are referring to. The Drones should already be out and repairing the Mack anyway all the time while mining. No need to have them 'waiting' in the hold for an emergency. Last I checked you cannot self repair with drones.
Ris Dnalor Black Rebel Rifter Club 207	Posted - 2012.02.13 02:30:00 - [32] - Quote Corina Jarr wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Read above so you can read why a miner won't timely launch any kind of drone. Can't find what you are referring to. But I think I KNOW what you are referring to. The Drones should already be out and repairing the Mack anyway all the time while mining. No need to have them 'waiting' in the hold for an emergency. Last I checked you cannot self repair with drones. aye, you're correct, unless this has changed recently. Save the Miners!
Supercon Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 3	Posted - 2012.02.13 02:40:00 - [33] - Quote Note: I am an experienced miner hiding behind an alt for my own protection. Anyways, I am already more than capable of flying a well-tanked, go-sod*****-yourself Hulk. But with the recent buff in destroyers and the introduction of the tier 3 battlecruisers, I realized that flying a Hulk that can muster an incredible 27-28k tank has become pointless as all the gankers have to do is bring an couple of extra dessies. Of course, I don't fit any faction/name mods on my ship so that the Hulk wouldn't be as enticing. Of course, given my adaptation, I have not lost a single Hulk in my entire career accept for that one instance when I was moving my Hulk and I failed to check my faction standings with the Gallente Federation (that was years ago). Since Crucible, I have noticed that my own truly-tanked mining-related vessel I have is the Orca. Mustering an awesome-sauce EHP of 265k-268k along with overheated tank mods and fleet boosts, the Orca is (bar non) the most toughest ship of it's class for high-sec miners. And this is not including faction/named mods. Of course, the Rorqual will top that (hands down). But we are talking about mining in systems where the Rorqual is not allowed to enter. And with the fact that anything in the ore hold and corporate hangar bay are completely lost in the ensuing destruction of the ship and with the fact that typical T2 (non-faction, non-named mods) are providing this level of protection and are not worth much in the market compared to their expensive equivalents, a well-tanked Orca's sole purpose is to make any gank attempts as expensive as possible so that very little to no profit is made from the gank. Even if the gankers are in it for the lols (which means they will no doubt gank at a loss anyways), the Orca will make sure that it flips the angry bird at the gankers knowing that it served its purpose well while going down in flames.
Valentyn3 17	Posted - 2012.02.13 03:13:00 - [34] - Quote Supercon wrote: Note: I am an experienced miner hiding behind an alt for my own protection. Anyways, I am already more than capable of flying a well-tanked, go-sod*****-yourself Hulk. But with the recent buff in destroyers and the introduction of the tier 3 battlecruisers, I realized that flying a Hulk that can muster an incredible 27-28k tank has become pointless as all the gankers have to do is bring an couple of extra dessies. Of course, I don't fit any faction/name mods on my ship so that the Hulk wouldn't be as enticing. Of course, given my adaptation, I have not lost a single Hulk in my entire career accept for that one instance when I was moving my Hulk and I failed to check my faction standings with the Gallente Federation (that was years ago). Since Crucible, I have noticed that my own truly-tanked mining-related vessel I have is the Orca. Mustering an awesome-sauce EHP of 265k-268k along with overheated tank mods and fleet boosts, the Orca is (bar non) the most toughest ship of it's class for high-sec miners. And this is not including faction/named mods. Of course, the Rorqual will top that (hands down). But we are talking about mining in systems where the Rorqual is not allowed to enter. And with the fact that anything in the ore hold and corporate hangar bay are completely lost in the ensuing destruction of the ship and with the fact that typical T2 (non-faction, non-named mods) are providing this level of protection and are not worth much in the market compared to their expensive equivalents, a well-tanked Orca's sole purpose is to make any gank attempts as expensive as possible so that very little to no profit is made from the gank. Even if the gankers are in it for the lols (which means they will no doubt gank at a loss anyways), the Orca will make sure that it flips the angry bird at the gankers knowing that it served its purpose well while going down in flames. I'm pretty sure that as long as your net loss is still higher than theirs they will keep coming no matter how hard or unprofitable you make it. You can't put a price on Epeen. Frequent squinting even in low light? You may be showing early signs of Brock Eye Syndrome. Talk to your doctor today.
Sandra Vellocet Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2012.02.13 04:29:00 - [35] - Quote Mike712 wrote: If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk. [Rokh, Mining Rokh] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Co-Processor II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Survey Scanner II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Large Drone Mining Augmentor II Large Cargohold Optimization I Large Cargohold Optimization I Mining Drone II x5 That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously? Huh ?!
Donald MacRury LankTech Multitaskers. 7	Posted - 2012.02.13 07:04:00 - [36] - Quote Do ECM drones actually work? and what would they do for a miner against a ganker?
Mortis vonShadow Balanaz Mining and Development Inc. 459	Posted - 2012.02.13 07:56:00 - [37] - Quote Mike712 wrote: If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk. [Rokh, Mining Rokh] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Co-Processor II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Survey Scanner II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Large Drone Mining Augmentor II Large Cargohold Optimization I Large Cargohold Optimization I Mining Drone II x5 That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously? Really? You can pull 6000+ m3 in 2min 5sec with this setup? Cuz I can with my hulk. All V's in related skills, the two +5% to mining yield implants and Orca support (with all V's in related skills). What do you get again? Can you strip a belt in two hours with two mining battleships? Didn't think so. So before you go around shooting your mouth off, nothing out bulk mines a hulk, its what it was designed to do. You wanna be safe while mining in hisec, good luck. EVE is all about pvp, combat, industry, market warfare. Industrial ships are just that, designed with industry in mind, not combat. The tank on exhumers and mining barges are to allow you time to get out of trouble. If you can't figure out how to use d-scan when someone enters local, you deserve to get popped. Mining in a battleship. And a Rokh at that. You've reduced that magnificent ship to mule status. You're friends should just shoot you themselves. Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á And some days, you're just a man with a gun.
Jori McKie Friends Of Harassment 11	Posted - 2012.02.13 08:49:00 - [38] - Quote Here is the thing, - Ice mining is maybe the worst profession in EVE ISK/h wise. - It's kinda boring and more of a "passive" thing you do in between - Ice miners have no other option as Mack, Hulk and for some few Orca. Many seems to be aware what risk they are taking. EVE is evolution in fast forward, especially in PvP you have to adapt. If you have bad fits you are killed more often, if you have a bad tactic you are killed more often, either you adapt/learn or you will be killed more often simple as that. The same rule applies to ice miners, in bad fits you are ganked more often. This is what i don't get, although many ice miners seems to be aware of the risk there is no action. If i'm aware i'm doing a risk profession in EVE with less rewards i would try to avoid any unnecessary losses. There are 2 standard fits for Macks, one with mining upgrades in low slots and only 7k EHP, the other with cargo expander and about 13k tank (boosted up to 18k). The first one will give you more yield per min but it has a bigger risk, the second one is more safe, less yield with a little less risk. A human has two options, mine "active" with more yield and react to any threat or be more "passive" with the second one. The Hulk or Orca is an upgrade to more safety but why not more ice miners socialize and build/join a mining corp setup mining ops with an Orca as mining booster and a dedicated Tengu shield booster (As ice belts are stationary, buy/build a POS in that system and the boosters are 100% safe, even wardecs won't bother you because of the recent policy changes CCP made) You never will be 100% safe from ganking but with the described setup you can rule out the dumb gankers and force them to get more numbers, but getting more numbers is effort. You see? My conlcusion from my personal experience is that highsec and the false assumption it's safe let you stop thinking or is infested by bots otherwise i can't explain so many bad fits i saw on Macks. Many described the new Tier 3 BC as the new ganking ship, that is only partly true. The Tier 3 BC in particular the Tornado are used as Alpha ships, you need them in higher security systems like 0.7 and up. In lower sec system 0.5 and 0.6 the DPS variant of Destroyer and Tier 2 BC are used and better. With Tier 3 BC you are barly cost effective against Macks as 1 Tornado has about 9k Alpha Damage any semi good Mack fit has that EHP. The Destroyers are the ships which you can do profitable ganking with. Donald MacRury wrote: Do ECM drones actually work? and what would they do for a miner against a ganker? ECM Drones won't work vs any Alpha ship like Tornado as you will be dead before you can react. They can be used vs Cane/Brutix and Destroyers but you have to be active and you have to know that ECM is chance based so you may or may not jam the ship you are targeting. As a rule of thumb, 5 ECM Vespa Drones easily jam a Destroyer, 5 ECM Hornets should do the trick on Destroyers most times too. The Problem is if any smart ganker sees your ECM Drones he will react accordingly.
Parthonax 3	Posted - 2012.02.13 09:09:00 - [39] - Quote Mining itself isn't the problem , the problem is in my opinion is that the general perception of most people that mining is being done by bots This is certainly true if you are talking about ice mining , the whole icemining proces is slow and relative boring , it is just screaming for a macro Different is ore mining there are plenty of people out there trying to make a living with several accounts or small groups of people mining away , i can imagine that after a stressful day att work watching your stripminers chew rock can be relaxing , for others relaxing means blowing things up For ice mining macros ,one of the better solutions is to move all ice in a new kind of grav site , that is big enough and that can last a few hours or a day but that needs to be scanned out daily , it will initially make ice much more expensive but atleast people using macros will find their current bot useless , also make the rats in those grav sites harder and more of them , macks can't tank well For ore mining , a small mentallity change is needed and some minor game mechanics changes, rmoving or replacing roguedrone droppings will go a long way to help the mining carreer but is only one step , maybe also a bit more grid and pcu to fit a better tank just ideas that have been floating around for years on these forums , but a new mining barge, no i don't see the point of that unless you want to restrict it to low or nullsec The main challenge for CCP is to make mining again into a important , respected and much needed profession so this is permanence
Anya Ohaya School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 91	Posted - 2012.02.13 09:28:00 - [40] - Quote Mike712 wrote: If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk. [Rokh, Mining Rokh] [...] snip [...] That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously? EFT says the ore yield on that Rokh is 891, versus 1209 for a hulk with t1 crystals. The thing is with mining, the odds of getting ganked are low enough that tanking doesn't make sense from a purely rational (expected net ISK per hour) standpoint. By odds I mean the normal odds. Sometimes the odds can change. Perhaps during hulkageddon a mining battleship has a better net ISK per hour. On the other hand some people would just see a mining Rokh as a challenge.
Jori McKie Friends Of Harassment 11	Posted - 2012.02.13 09:32:00 - [41] - Quote Just some numbers so maybe some miners will adapt. Alpha Tornado Damage output is about 9k 0.5 system Concord needs about 16s to react. Thrasher All V (no imps) You can get out 8 volleys from 200mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1k volleys. Damage output is 8k. Catalyst All V (no imps) You can get out 8 volleys from Light Neutron Blaster. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.16k volleys. Damage output is 9.3k. Cane All V (no imps) You can get out 8 volleys from 420mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.7k volleys. Damage output is 13.7k Brutix All V (no imps) You can get out 6 volleys from Neutron Blaster. Wiith a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 2.5k volleys. Damage output is 15.3k 0.6 system Concord needs about 9s to react. Thrasher All V (no imps) You can get out 5 volleys from 200mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1k volleys. Damage output is 5k. Catalyst All V (no imps) You can get out 5 volleys from Light Neutron Blaster. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.16k volleys. Damage output is 5.8k. Cane All V (no imps) You can get out 5 volleys from 420mm AC guns. With a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 1.7k volleys. Damage output is 8.5k Brutix All V (no imps) You can get out 4 volleys from Neutron Blaster. Wiith a full T2 gank fit and overheating the guns you get 2.5k volleys. Damage output is 10k So with a decent Mack fit you are safe against any solo ganker in a 0.6 system. Draw your own conclusions.
Shazzam Vokanavom Hedion University Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2012.02.13 10:45:00 - [42] - Quote Jori McKie wrote: Draw your own conclusions. It only takes 2 - 3 destroyers to take out a Mack at an assest loss ratio of around 10:1 Plex in an afternoon by attacking soft targets. Ganking was favoured in Crucible due to dessie improvements and new alpha BC's cheaper than BS. OP might be trying to bait Orca's? Ganking of soft targets needs an effective bounty hunter system in order to afford an effective responce to criminal acts and give some credance to consideration of "adaption" for the ganker.
Ptraci StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound. 321	Posted - 2012.02.13 15:32:00 - [43] - Quote Jori McKie wrote: . Lasting effect i would say. What you don't know is that they probably moved somewhere else. Net effect - you sitting there wasting your time thinking you had a major victory. It's like the AFK cloakers we get out here in drone space. They keep bragging about all the economic damage they are doing yet somehow the industry index levels don't seem to be dropping at all... and when one does, they fail to notice all those new industry 1 and 2 systems that pop up. But to each their own. If thinking you have forced several people offline is fun for you - then by all means go ahead.
Jori McKie Friends Of Harassment 13	Posted - 2012.02.13 15:45:00 - [44] - Quote Ptraci wrote: Jori McKie wrote: . Lasting effect i would say. What you don't know is that they probably moved somewhere else. Net effect - you sitting there wasting your time thinking you had a major victory. It's like the AFK cloakers we get out here in drone space. They keep bragging about all the economic damage they are doing yet somehow the industry index levels don't seem to be dropping at all... and when one does, they fail to notice all those new industry 1 and 2 systems that pop up. But to each their own. If thinking you have forced several people offline is fun for you - then by all means go ahead. Oh dear....... I don't care at all who and how many miners are in that system or not or elsewhere when i'm offline and i definitly not let my alt idle there. If i forced some bots to move or log out when i log in, fine and if not, fine either. I'm not on a hunting, it just happens i ganked some Macks and wrote about the effects.
Corina Jarr Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built 571	Posted - 2012.02.13 15:57:00 - [45] - Quote Op... I love you corp name. Made me chuckle. Also interesting test. One I would like to do is see what the smallest ship that could gank a Hulk solo would be in both a .5 and a 1.0 (both ends of the Concord spectrum).
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 1171	Posted - 2012.02.13 17:26:00 - [46] - Quote Interesting. Alas, the boost you get from 1 orca with a ganglink for shields or armor or w/e, isn't enough to save you against the 5 or more destroyers that pounce on you. If barges were boosted to have the same ehp as a BS without a tank, then I would honesty just shake my head in shame at anybody who moaned about being jihad ganked in their hulks....
J3ssica Alba Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 110	Posted - 2012.02.13 22:09:00 - [47] - Quote I have taken to checking ice belts when im around them, mack wrecks give nice intact armor plates sometimes
Borun Tal Cubicle Warriors from 'merica 43	Posted - 2012.02.13 22:27:00 - [48] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Tanking a mack is an exercise of futility. Just put the loss of some ships per year in the balance sheet as "operating costs" and be done with it. This. +1. Cost of doing business, and keep on truckin'.
sYnc Vir Wolfsbrigade 154	Posted - 2012.02.13 22:48:00 - [49] - Quote Mike712 wrote: If you have an orca/hauling alt, I really don't understand why anyone wold mine in a hulk. [Rokh, Mining Rokh] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Co-Processor II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Survey Scanner II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Large Drone Mining Augmentor II Large Cargohold Optimization I Large Cargohold Optimization I Mining Drone II x5 That does pretty much the same m^3 as a hulk, but would take 7 or more nadoes to gank, why do people use hulks...seriously? Because a hulk gets 900m3 more yeild per minute and anyone using Dcan and an orca wont get ganked. Its not like you can't just wait for the first shot and then dock your ship and warp off in your pod......
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 271	Posted - 2012.02.14 01:21:00 - [50] - Quote Jori McKie wrote: Here is the thing, - Ice mining is maybe the worst profession in EVE ISK/h wise. - It's kinda boring and more of a "passive" thing you do in between - Ice miners have no other option as Mack, Hulk and for some few Orca. Many seems to be aware what risk they are taking. EVE is evolution in fast forward, especially in PvP you have to adapt. If you have bad fits you are killed more often, if you have a bad tactic you are killed more often, either you adapt/learn or you will be killed more often simple as that. The same rule applies to ice miners, in bad fits you are ganked more often. Not exactly true. When the tank is toilet paper anyway, giving out a crappy T1 invuln field entices less ganking than a some stupidly expensive setups I have seen around (that were originally copied from Halada's mining guide, without noticing he gave fittings suited for 0.0 rats not for hi sec gimpy rats ) Jori McKie wrote: Many seems to be aware what risk they are taking. Oh they are. If you lose a crappy fit mack and salvage it you have lost about 70-80M. This is about 14-16 hours worth of mining in the worst conditions to pay it back. Jori McKie wrote: This is what i don't get, although many ice miners seems to be aware of the risk there is no action. If i'm aware i'm doing a risk profession in EVE with less rewards i would try to avoid any unnecessary losses. There are 2 standard fits for Macks, one with mining upgrades in low slots and only 7k EHP, the other with cargo expander and about 13k tank (boosted up to 18k). The first one will give you more yield per min but it has a bigger risk, the second one is more safe, less yield with a little less risk. A human has two options, mine "active" with more yield and react to any threat or be more "passive" with the second one. The Hulk or Orca is an upgrade to more safety but why not more ice miners socialize and build/join a mining corp setup mining ops with an Orca as mining booster and a dedicated Tengu shield booster (As ice belts are stationary, buy/build a POS in that system and the boosters are 100% safe, even wardecs won't bother you because of the recent policy changes CCP made) You never will be 100% safe from ganking but with the described setup you can rule out the dumb gankers and force them to get more numbers, but getting more numbers is effort. You see? My conlcusion from my personal experience is that highsec and the false assumption it's safe let you stop thinking or is infested by bots otherwise i can't explain so many bad fits i saw on Macks. 1) Given the mining ship losses are low enough, sacrificing efficiency costs more than having a ship popped every now and then. There are some basic "rules" (i.e. don't mine during Hulkageddon / Goon people in system), don't mine with orange pilots in belts with gank ships etc. that save the day 95% of the time. 2) Ice miners don't socialize because they are not there to do that. They are socializing in RL / watching TV / cutting grass / playing another game. Otherwise they would not do an AFK, low income profession. 3) You don't get the ganker philosophy. They are enterprising individuals who get a feeling of achievement at popping a thougher "adversary", like a game of cat and mice. There are very few who are really "in" for the ISK. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel

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