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Arsonin Flier
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Posted - 2008.01.26 17:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Pan Crastus Before you all scream "he wants WoW-like PVP": no, I don't. However, the cost of losing ships still seems to be too high in EVE, so the typical PVP goes like this:
- 5-6 man roaming gang looking for 5-6 v 1 situations (ganking ratters/miners/haulers), then logging off or running away when they get 5-6 or more opponents
Right, never roam alone. It is sound advice to have superior numbers for any engagement.
Quote:
- larger fleets not getting any fights even if similar numbers are present on the other side. Logoffski / Dockupski again.
Same thing here...
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- most of EVE's actual PVP is gate camping and there it's mostly 10 people shooting shuttles and noob ships
because people need to defend their territory and/or keep their enemies from spying on them with alts... again, not shocking.
Quote:
- the only way to force a fight is to shoot POSes etc.
That is true, but with planning and good intel, people can be baited into fighting.
Quote:
I can imagine that if ships cost 20-25% of what they currently do, more fights would happen. I do realize that other costs are involved with losses (time to get a new ship, clones, time to move to where you were/want to be). Perhaps I'm wrong and prices are fine though - discuss.
Possible solutions: - higher insurance for T2 ships - fewer modules getting destroyed when ships pop - lower building/invention cost for T2 (yeah, scream little T2 ripoffskis) - ???
No. If anything, the game is already too lax about taking care of the inflation problem. Although I would personally like to see T2 building be a bit easier (read: greater availability of BPs, for less cost). There is already a fact of more isk being created than could possibly ever be destroyed. At some point CCP will have to either remove insurance (deflationary effect when ships are destroyed), or make it a 'closed' economy with no bounties. Otherwise, the end game of this is everyone trading billions of isk for other billions of isk.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.26 17:51:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
I am another noob who expects that every pirate gang should suicide on his BS blob and forgets that getting the opponent to fight is half of PvP prowess anyway.
Translated it for you.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Shin Ra
Cosmic Fusion When Fat Kids Attack
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Posted - 2008.01.26 17:58:00 -
[33]
Losses have become more costly to good PVPers and less costly to bad PVPers. This is because the isk value of items has decreased significantly.
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Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
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Posted - 2008.01.26 18:00:00 -
[34]
it is the lag stopping the fights as much as anything.
Jumping into a fleet is a disadvantage.
This tends to mean the attacker brings more ships.
The defender wants to defend, so brings more ships.
So it continues.
A fight occurs when someone thinks they can win.
Isk is rarely an issue. -
- Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345 |
Bashia Petrov
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Posted - 2008.01.26 18:00:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Bashia Petrov on 26/01/2008 18:01:50 I find it well balanced and I'll explain my position on this matter.
1 T2 Frig = 5-15M (varies depending on type) 1 T1 Frig = 100K ish
1 T2 Cruiser = 80-150M (rough average) 1 T1 Cruiser = 3-10M
Fittings T1 = more or less free if you mission or pretty cheap otherwise T2 = average 100K - 5M (per)
Average cost of setup:
T1 Kest = about 1M maybe T2 Kest = about 30M for same setup using T2 gear
Insurance T1 - 80% when mods factored in T2 - 10% maybe
You pay for more damage/survivability
When you talk about HAC's and other ships, the damage they inflict and the number of battles many of them live through atest to the cost of having the ship.
1 L2 mission with decent QL = 500K isk, means 1 T1 Frig for every 2 missions (or less if you refine/sell loot) 1 L4 Mission = average 1.5M reward + 20M in bounties + loot/salvage, 1 T2 Frig every 2 missions
So the balance is there, the more powerful your character becomes the more options you have, the better chance you live. If they made insurance payout more there would be more use of T2 ships, not solving anything.
The cost should be higher, reducing the ammount of isk in the game, the rich would continue to use T2 and would lose more isk doing so, the poor would use them in limited fasion.
Battleships W/ full insurance you will only take a 30-50M loss which can easily be made up in 2 L4 missions or 2 hours of ratting in 0.0 so no real loss of isk on these ships for Reward vs risk in combat
I do agree with the OP that there are alot of gate camps, that is the nature of Eve now, to many alts, to many systems, to many poor people in exspensive ships they don't want to lose.
I personnaly don't fly a PvP ship thats worth more then 35M except on rare occasion as I'm poor :)
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.26 18:44:00 -
[36]
op
Hell no ! Attrition is an essential part of the warfare balance. If losses mean little to nothing, then everything comes down to numbers, numbers, and more numbers.
Currenctly, you can outperform your opponent military, economically and politically. If losses equate to nothing much, then you lose the economic and political fights, and are left with one thing only: team deathmatch with uneven teams.
[center] Old blog |
Kyoto Luyi
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.01.26 18:53:00 -
[37]
Originally by: El Mauru Most people would blob/dock up/log off anyway, simply because they don`t like to loose. ... Plenty of good pvp out there- you just have to grow some (bigger) ******* and look around a bit
I agree - people don't like to lose. What the hell can be done about it though?
The other problem is that some people ONLY like to win - ever, hence the blobwars.
I'll happily PvP in something that costs less than 2% of my total worth in EvE, if it costs more than that then I start factoring in 'how long it'll take to replace that isk' (without selling GTC I might add!)
The problem is that Battleships cost 80M and up, so unless I have 4Bn in the bank I'm not flying out in one of those. Games are supposed to be fun, my fun involves NOT having to farm iskies for days on end to afford one battle
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Yazmina
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:03:00 -
[38]
I agree that modules and ships cost too much and that the cost of losing them in pvp is too high. If you have people that are terrified of losing everything if they are destroyed that is a deterant to pvp. Anyone who disagrees with this is a pirate ganker that doesnt want to lose their source of easy income by no brain gate camping.
If the losses incurred by dying were lower than they are now, namely something less than 100% more people would pvp, i know I would. I am afraid of losing everything. I have implants that I cant afford to replace and dont have a standing of 8+ with my mission agent so i cant use jump clones which means if i die once i lose over 30m in implants. That is too steap for me now. I even bought a frigate and equipped it for pvp but i cant until I can get a jump clone which wont be for a while.
People with 2 years + experience need to remember that they are not the only ones in this game and that their selfishness is keeping others from fully enjoying all aspects of the game. Make pvp more accessable and affordable and more people would do it= more fun for everyone. End of story.
*puts on flame resistant suit to protect against all the pirates out there with bruised epeens* |
SirMoric
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:28:00 -
[39]
I don't fancy the idea of making rigs droppable.
Yes, with the prices on rigs at the moment it may seem like a good income for pirates, but honestly, how long will it take for the market to drown in rigs and prices will subsequently fall? As it is now, rigs are one way of depleting the economy of ISK.
Fewer modules destroyed when you nail a ship? Look above.
Another fact to point out, if you nail a ship and gain more items, so will your enemy when they nail you. So you gain absolutely nothing from this..... unless you gate-gank in numbers or log off when a larger gang is inbound.
rgds
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:46:00 -
[40]
too costly? go on the test server or just quit eve and go play fps if anything its too easy to make isk Trashed sig, Shark was here |
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Mizerik
Grettistak
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:47:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Mizerik on 26/01/2008 19:49:15
Originally by: Yazmina People with 2 years + experience need to remember that they are not the only ones in this game and that their selfishness is keeping others from fully enjoying all aspects of the game. Make pvp more accessable and affordable and more people would do it= more fun for everyone. End of story.
Not flaming here...but...
No one made you put implants in, you can buy a Jumpclone from several people out there using Roq's in lowsec.
Because those of us who have been playing for over 2 years should fly T1 fitted ships and go out 1 vs 1 ?
This game like life is not always fair, to give you an example I lost a Carrier to CCP killing a node, I was at a POS repping it, somehow after CCP killed the node my ship ends up next to the station. I was stuck at log in screen, I get blobbed and podded as well. Is that fair? to me no but its part of the game... You fly what you can afford to lose, if blobing is the the way of things, then get a Smartbomb ship or fly a Stealth Bomber with a bomb launcher.
Don't cry because you have no friends, make friends, join a gang go hunting.
Implants are really nice to have but if you intend on being a PVP'r you'll learn to live without them until you have isk to replace a set ~ or loot a set from a wreck (don't forget to send a mail with a thanks for the donation)
Truth be told, in pvp blobs = safety = more kills = more loot = cheaper to replace stuff you lose = more pvp = circle
** edit for spelling :P yes I know I can't spell
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Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:51:00 -
[42]
Carebear thread. Losses are far too cheap , I can replace T2 fitted BS with basically zero effort , the only time sink is moving them out of highsec and gathering the fittings. Lots of pirates fight with marauders , which aren't supposed to be remotely cost effective in pvp (and I don't think they are - nerfed sensor strength , meet boosted caldari ECM) because they have too much ISK to spend.
Look at the increase in comedy killmails. Faction BS , carriers , dreads , and now even motherships - titan soon ? No ship class is safe from the clumsy hands of unskilled pilots. Darwinism seems threatened as there is no way to reduce the unfit to frigates anymore.
Originally by: ivan draco we didnt want your post anyway
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:55:00 -
[43]
Originally by: SirMoric
Yes, with the prices on rigs at the moment it may seem like a good income for pirates, but honestly, how long will it take for the market to drown in rigs and prices will subsequently fall? As it is now, rigs are one way of depleting the economy of ISK.
Fewer modules destroyed when you nail a ship? Look above.
Depleting the economy of ISK? LOL.
It's depleting the economy of assets, not ISK. They are NOT the same.
Other then that, I'm fine with the drop system as it is, even if it occasionally screws you (stupid random number generator).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Selene Le'Cotiere
Amarr I-Omniscient-I
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:55:00 -
[44]
Originally by: SereneSally I agree the loss in this game is far too costly. Again it annoys me that people who have made a lot of ISK come out with absolute BS. OK say your a fairly new player you mine and mine or rat for months before you can afford your first BS, then someone come along and pops you! bye by all that time and money, this is where people leave the game, or not. I dont think the ships are too costly its the module fitting that makes it costly, which can and most of the time more than the ship itself, so your actually losing not only the ship but the mods and you cant uninsure them. People who say its not costly are people with lots of ISK.
This is also why it is said... "DO NOT FLY WHAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE".
The people who attempt to bust their own nuts trying to fly the biggest ship possible really do need to get this into their heads. Stick with the T1 cruisers, there are many that are very capable pvp ships.
Build your support skills. Build your wallet up. then, when you are more comfortable with the game got to bigger things. *** "Some would call me a Demon. Others, a Vampire. But if the truth be told, I'm a child of the moon and a Goddess among men." Free pint of blood for the Dev who agrees |
McAltyalty
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:56:00 -
[45]
Edited by: McAltyalty on 26/01/2008 19:56:53
Originally by: Stakhanov
Look at the increase in comedy killmails. Faction BS , carriers , dreads , and now even motherships - titan soon ? No ship class is safe from the clumsy hands of unskilled pilots. Darwinism seems threatened as there is no way to reduce the unfit to frigates anymore.
Is that really the best thing though? If stupid people can't have fun they're gonna leave, and since we already know a large percentage of people are stupid Eve will both lose players and lose possible recruits. You may want that but I guarantee CCP doesn't a fair amount of the playerbase doesn't either. Sure they may not be the best but that doesn't mean they're not fun to play with.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.01.26 19:58:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Malken
Originally by: Pan Crastus
- most of EVE's actual PVP is gate camping and there it's mostly 10 people shooting shuttles and noob ships
solution must be to make shuttles cheaper then right?
or do what any good network like the union forces does.
oh no I got ganksed this gate in this system. tell everyone in union forces about it (which is foundation, MNTZ, EvE uni, some other allainces
anyone in the area usally 12 people will gang together and within 10 mins that gate camp is now facing off with a real force.
bam the noob ship was just the start.
but the pirates have to have the balls to camp somewhere important where we'll get ****ed.
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
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Posted - 2008.01.26 20:07:00 -
[47]
Man, I wish they'd get rid of insurance, TBH. If you ask me, ships cost too little to replace these days. I'd be cool with fewer modules getting destroyed when ships pop, but only because it might help out piracy a bit, and in its current manifestation PvP is hard to support yourself on unless you play it really safe (and **** that).
That being said, I have no problems getting fights the way it is currently roaming around solo or with a couple other guys (even though the blob does rear its head occasionally).
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losses
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Posted - 2008.01.26 20:14:00 -
[48]
Losses at times can be High.
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Avery Fatwallet
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Posted - 2008.01.26 20:23:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Janu Hull As a professed solo belt-ratter in 0.0, I am aware of the threats that exist, and as an experienced player, I have learned how to cope with them.
1. PAY ATTENTION! 2. Safe spot, safe spot, safe spot. 3. The cloaking device is your friend. Become aquainted ASAP. In fact, never leave empire without one. 4. The rats(and rocks) will still be there when the reds move on. WARP THE FRACK OUT! 5. Always maintain alignment to a safe spot when ratting. The less turning you've got to do to line up for warp, the faster you get your butt out of the line of fire. 6. Warp to 100km. Do not worry about the rats. If you shoot them, they will come. If you're mining, pick a rock as far from the default warp in location as possible. Bookmark that rock, warp to there, not the location marker.
In 0.0, if you are not the hunter, you're prey. Be smart prey, and your ship will pay for itself before it gets shot out from under you.
lolwut
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Bashia Petrov
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Posted - 2008.01.26 20:31:00 -
[50]
Communication is key, to give you an example, we formed a gang wolfpack style to bust up a gate camp, we take the camp with no losses on our side open up the gate to blue traffic for 30 mins - 1hour
Move over to hostile space camp their pipe (they are hostile so we inflick as much isk damage as possible). Jump into home system 6 guys there, talking in local... they know we are here... move on jump into pipe system, hostile in a "Nightmare" on scan from gate we camping... one of his allinace mates jumps in with a Typhoon... now we have a 20ish man alpha strike gang... no intel being passed within their alliance, we pop 20 or so random people running the pipe, pick up around 600m worth the loot, got to love those Zyd/Mega haulers, faction/officer loot and all the BPC's they were kind enough to donate.
Point: 1. If anyone in their allinace had communicated there was a large gang in the area and to stay safe they would not have lost so much. 2. If they had used a built in feature called "MAP" and check for pilots in space and/or ships/pods destoryed they would know not to try to run a hostile system without a scout 3. Do I feel pity for people who don't pay attention? Nope 4. Since I fly a interdictor that can be killed by nearly every T1 cruiser I have to fly in gang to kill anything larger (note I said nearly ~) 5. Since so many people fly command ships now, you have to have a alpha strike force to break the tank in any reasonable ammount of time 6. As in life there is safety in numbers, it will remain so, it also pads our killboards :)
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.01.26 20:42:00 -
[51]
Ships are way too CHEAP! It's become so easy to make money in EVE these days that the cost of ships doesn't really mean anything anymore.
A tier-2 BS after insurance is only around 8m ISK, and then maybe 10m if you fit T1 second-named on them!!!
That's less than the profits from most L4 missions!
Unless you risk something that's valuable to you, you don't get the adrenaline pumping in fights! These days.... "I'll just jump into another BS..."..
Insurance should be removed COMPLETELY for 0.0, and halved for low-sec.
That way people flying BS might be able to start feeling proud of of that accomplishment it again....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Lorimer
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Posted - 2008.01.26 21:10:00 -
[52]
The thing I bait my wow playing friends with is the fact that
Death in Eve .....Hurts
Makes the game worth playing in my opinion :)
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Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.26 21:26:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Lorimer The thing I bait my wow playing friends with is the fact that
Death in Eve .....Hurts
Makes the game worth playing in my opinion :)
This. I would have quit a long time ago if PvP turned into a 'meh who cares'. It's the fact that usually 200ish mil (and an hour of going and refitting a new ship) is on the line, not even including pod, every time I go into a fight that usually leaves me with an adrenaline rush when it's over. It's also because people know they have a lot of isk on the line, so everyone plays to win. Which makes beating them all the more exciting. It's a lot more thrilling when you know your enemy is doing everything they can to win. _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it. |
Kastar
Paragon Horizons Intergalactic Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.01.26 21:49:00 -
[54]
I don't agree to any of what the op said.
Eve is already flooded with ISK. Losses should hurt a lot more... battleships should cost 300% of what they do now. -----------------------------------------------
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.01.26 22:00:00 -
[55]
Only way to get more PvP, is by changing peoples attitude. I'm a collector, so I'm not the one that attacks anything breathing.. But I do like PvP. Yeah, most of it is many vs few, but that because this is a non-consensual world. If we had instances, EvE could limit the fighting to 10 vs 10 or 40 vs 40 making the fighting more equal. But EvE would lose out on a very big thing.
What you can do, is find another corp that is approximate your own size. Arrange a Rule of Engangement with them and have your fun. Stick with the small gangs of 5-10 people on both sides.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.26 22:03:00 -
[56]
Or grab an assault frig and go roaming solo.... not a major loss and who cares, it's an assault frig. I attacked a thrasher and a crow in my wolf because they were there. Got the Thrasher, crow almost pwned my ass but he was trying to stay out of web range and ran out of scram range and I warped away \/
Originally by: Sharupak When you go to vote, you are voting on whether you want to bend over or get on your knees.
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Dahin
Maza Nostra oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2008.01.26 22:13:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Dahin on 26/01/2008 22:13:48 Expensive?
Look at all the 0.0 entities slugging at each other non-stop for over a year now. It seems that it's no longer possible for an entity to run out of ships. And furthermore, entity is out of money.
Why fly covops? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0WOIwlXE9g |
The Grudge
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Posted - 2008.01.26 23:03:00 -
[58]
Sounds to me that you would like to be able to sign on and get into pvp action right away with little or no loss associated with it. Kind of like sitting by battlemaster all day and queing up for meaningless zerg pvp. The beauty of Eve is exactly the pvp system that we have right now. Pvp in Eve needs no promotion or incenitives it serves as a system that preserves the feeling of online wealth associated with your character/account. And smart people that only pvp in ships they can afford to loose or people with balls to take on uneven odds have the most fun out it already. Maybe you're looking for pvp in the wrong places. I don't consider gate camps that kill noobs/industrials only or pirating gangs hunting missioners forms of pvp. It's something you deal with in this game, something that keeps you on your toes and make game more exciting.
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.26 23:06:00 -
[59]
i dont see a cerb at 39M base cost as costly. ------
Tides of Silence |
Khatred
ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs
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Posted - 2008.01.26 23:17:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Khatred on 26/01/2008 23:18:21 The picture of Eve's pvp you gave is not quite accurate but not too far from the true neither. But I'll give you a hint: I've seen a lot of people afraid of loosing/dieing in WoW. And the only incovinience when you die in WoW is that you have to walk back again. It's never about the costs associated with a death in a mmorpg. It's about the human nature. I bet that more than half the people playing mmorpgs are terrified by the idea of loosing to another player or they get very angry when they do and they don't want to happen again.
EDIT: However, they will never admit it.
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