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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.26 14:33:00 -
[1]
Before you all scream "he wants WoW-like PVP": no, I don't. However, the cost of losing ships still seems to be too high in EVE, so the typical PVP goes like this:
- 5-6 man roaming gang looking for 5-6 v 1 situations (ganking ratters/miners/haulers), then logging off or running away when they get 5-6 or more opponents
- larger fleets not getting any fights even if similar numbers are present on the other side. Logoffski / Dockupski again.
- most of EVE's actual PVP is gate camping and there it's mostly 10 people shooting shuttles and noob ships
- the only way to force a fight is to shoot POSes etc.
I can imagine that if ships cost 20-25% of what they currently do, more fights would happen. I do realize that other costs are involved with losses (time to get a new ship, clones, time to move to where you were/want to be). Perhaps I'm wrong and prices are fine though - discuss.
Possible solutions:
- higher insurance for T2 ships
- fewer modules getting destroyed when ships pop
- lower building/invention cost for T2 (yeah, scream little T2 ripoffskis)
- ???
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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baltec1
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Posted - 2008.01.26 14:46:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Pan Crastus
Before you all scream "he wants WoW-like PVP": no, I don't. However, the cost of losing ships still seems to be too high in EVE, so the typical PVP goes like this:
- 5-6 man roaming gang looking for 5-6 v 1 situations (ganking ratters/miners/haulers), then logging off or running away when they get 5-6 or more opponents
- larger fleets not getting any fights even if similar numbers are present on the other side. Logoffski / Dockupski again.
- most of EVE's actual PVP is gate camping and there it's mostly 10 people shooting shuttles and noob ships
- the only way to force a fight is to shoot POSes etc.
I can imagine that if ships cost 20-25% of what they currently do, more fights would happen. I do realize that other costs are involved with losses (time to get a new ship, clones, time to move to where you were/want to be). Perhaps I'm wrong and prices are fine though - discuss.
Possible solutions:
- higher insurance for T2 ships
- fewer modules getting destroyed when ships pop
- lower building/invention cost for T2 (yeah, scream little T2 ripoffskis)
- ???
Im a nub in low sec and have no issue with losing a ship and not getting all my money back. If I could then it would just take out all of the risk and I wouldnt try as hard.
The most important rule of pvp afterall is to not fly anything you cant afford to lose
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.26 14:49:00 -
[3]
As a professed solo belt-ratter in 0.0, I am aware of the threats that exist, and as an experienced player, I have learned how to cope with them.
1. PAY ATTENTION!
2. Safe spot, safe spot, safe spot.
3. The cloaking device is your friend. Become aquainted ASAP. In fact, never leave empire without one.
4. The rats(and rocks) will still be there when the reds move on. WARP THE FRACK OUT!
5. Always maintain alignment to a safe spot when ratting. The less turning you've got to do to line up for warp, the faster you get your butt out of the line of fire.
6. Warp to 100km. Do not worry about the rats. If you shoot them, they will come. If you're mining, pick a rock as far from the default warp in location as possible. Bookmark that rock, warp to there, not the location marker.
In 0.0, if you are not the hunter, you're prey. Be smart prey, and your ship will pay for itself before it gets shot out from under you.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Alski
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.26 14:50:00 -
[4]
Imo the bigger issue is what you said about the “other costs”; mainly the time it takes to get a new ship and move it wherever it needs to be, running mineral to end-item T2 construction in 0.0 is impossible, and the empire market is if anything just becoming more centralised – your 20% cheaper ships are actually here now IF you normally live in a region with a bad market and have the time and will to go to Jita, of course all that traveling is time when you can't be shooting stuff, i'd guess that if it dident take so traveling time to replace a ship we would get equally as much more pvp.
Another factor is the risk/reward balance of highsec/lowsec/0.0 but that’s probably veering offtopic.
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(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
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Haurian Commando
Gallente
Cursed Souls
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.26 14:56:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
- higher insurance for T2 ships
/signed
Originally by: Pan Crastus
- fewer modules getting destroyed when ships pop
This only gives your killers more rewards for popping you --> more ship deaths --> more expensive ships
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My Mod autograph collection. Mods, please sign here!
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Vincent S
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Posted - 2008.01.26 14:56:00 -
[6]
Losses aren't nearly costly enough. The game was a million times more exciting and much more fun to play when not everyone could afford T2, and if you managed to pop a T2 sniper you actually made quite a lot of money. Looting a wreck was actually exciting back then. The cheaper stuff is, the more homogeneous and meaningless PVP becomes.
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Solasta Kovacs
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.01.26 14:57:00 -
[7]
Cant agree with any of the OP.
The risk and danger of losing your ship is what gives pvp a buzz. If ships were cheap and meaningless, where would be the thrill? Youcan fly fully insurable ships if you want- theyre called T1 cruisers, BCs and BS. If you want to play with the big boys, you have to grow some balls and fly T2 with the associated risk.
The relaity is that there are plenty of fights to be had that are not cheap ganks. But you do need to put some effort into finding them, and have some balls when you are outgunned. Plenty of folk still do this.
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Solasta Kovacs
Cant agree with any of the OP.
The risk and danger of losing your ship is what gives pvp a buzz. If ships were cheap and meaningless, where would be the thrill? [...] But you do need to put some effort into finding them, and have some balls when you are outgunned. Plenty of folk still do this.
So how do you explain my claims in the OP which are very realistic in my (rather extensive) experience? i.e. that people log off quickly or run away when faced with equal numbers and everyone preferring cheap risk-free ganks these days.
I'm not saying it *should* be like this, I'm saying that this is how it is right now. You need to actually lure/bait your random gank-squad into a fight in order to get a fight on similar/equal terms nowdays. If it takes "effort to find them", it's the same thing I am claiming: the majority of PVPers are pussies and don't want to lose ships.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vincent S
Losses aren't nearly costly enough. The game was a million times more exciting and much more fun to play when not everyone could afford T2, and if you managed to pop a T2 sniper you actually made quite a lot of money. Looting a wreck was actually exciting back then. The cheaper stuff is, the more homogeneous and meaningless PVP becomes.
Back then, there weren't any wrecks.
The homogenous PVP is already a reality with most people flying Nanoishtars etc. ... But what's the point when people are running / logging out always unless they have a clear number advantage?
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
- most of EVE's actual PVP is gate camping and there it's mostly 10 people shooting shuttles and noob ships
solution must be to make shuttles cheaper then right?
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Malken
Originally by: Pan Crastus
- most of EVE's actual PVP is gate camping and there it's mostly 10 people shooting shuttles and noob ships
solution must be to make shuttles cheaper then right?
You fail at basic logic. Obviously shuttles are already used frequently and people don't mind losing them, so they are cheap enough.
Try harder.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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SereneSally
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:07:00 -
[12]
I agree the loss in this game is far too costly. Again it annoys me that people who have made a lot of ISK come out with absolute BS.
OK say your a fairly new player you mine and mine or rat for months before you can afford your first BS, then someone come along and pops you! bye by all that time and money, this is where people leave the game, or not. I dont think the ships are too costly its the module fitting that makes it costly, which can and most of the time more than the ship itself, so your actually losing not only the ship but the mods and you cant uninsure them.
People who say its not costly are people with lots of ISK.
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente
Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
So how do you explain my claims in the OP which are very realistic in my (rather extensive) experience? i.e. that people log off quickly or run away when faced with equal numbers and everyone preferring cheap risk-free ganks these days.
I would sugest that people dont like to loose, and their tactics reflect that.
I would also sugest that you are playing in the wrong places, and 1v1, 1v2 and 2v1 is available if you realy want it, and are prepared to take a few risks.
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Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Malken
Originally by: Pan Crastus
- most of EVE's actual PVP is gate camping and there it's mostly 10 people shooting shuttles and noob ships
solution must be to make shuttles cheaper then right?
You fail at basic logic. Obviously shuttles are already used frequently and people don't mind losing them, so they are cheap enough.
Try harder.
WTS: Sarcasm Detector II cheap with logic brain chip and humour mood.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:14:00 -
[15]
Edited by: baltec1 on 26/01/2008 15:14:33
Originally by: SereneSally
I agree the loss in this game is far too costly. Again it annoys me that people who have made a lot of ISK come out with absolute BS.
OK say your a fairly new player you mine and mine or rat for months before you can afford your first BS, then someone come along and pops you! bye by all that time and money, this is where people leave the game, or not. I dont think the ships are too costly its the module fitting that makes it costly, which can and most of the time more than the ship itself, so your actually losing not only the ship but the mods and you cant uninsure them.
People who say its not costly are people with lots of ISK.
I dont have alot of isk to play with yet I dont think losing ships is too costly. I fly t1 cruiser with t1 fitting in pvp because thats all I can afford. I could go into a fight with a battleship with an expencive fitting but if I lose that im broke. So I dont take the risk.
Again do not fly a ship into a situation where it can be destroyed if you cannot afford to lose it. This applies to everyone from a day 1 nub in a bantam to a 4 year old supercapital pilot.
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TheEndofTheWorld
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:15:00 -
[16]
The issue is... well, uhm... rigs. Rigs cost anywhere from 30M to 100M. They make the setups expensive, but they cannot be obtained by killing ships. Solution: make rigs droppable. (increase PVP reward)
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vincent S
Losses aren't nearly costly enough. The game was a million times more exciting and much more fun to play when not everyone could afford T2, and if you managed to pop a T2 sniper you actually made quite a lot of money. Looting a wreck was actually exciting back then. The cheaper stuff is, the more homogeneous and meaningless PVP becomes.
Faction is the new T2.
You always fly with faction-fit, right? To keep things exciting, yes?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
El Mauru
Amarr
Nexus Analytics
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:28:00 -
[18]
Most people would blob/dock up/log off anyway, simply because they don`t like to loose.
Making things cheaper will not bring them out of their holes, just make your victories more meaningless 
Also, some people *dock up* or *log off* because they deem you too much of a risk to engage- make it easier on them (and cheaper for you) by flying less scary stuff- don`t want to do that? Oh maybe you don`t like loosing either? 
Plenty of good pvp out there- you just have to grow some (bigger) ******* and look around a bit
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: El Mauru
Most people would blob/dock up/log off anyway, simply because they don`t like to loose.
Making things cheaper will not bring them out of their holes, just make your victories more meaningless
Why do they even PVP then if they want to avoid losing at the cost of getting far fewer fights?
Quote:
Also, some people *dock up* or *log off* because they deem you too much of a risk to engage- make it easier on them (and cheaper for you) by flying less scary stuff- don`t want to do that? Oh maybe you don`t like loosing either?
Acting stupid isn't a solution. Should I fly around in haulers in order to get fights? Pathetic.
Quote:
Plenty of good pvp out there- you just have to grow some (bigger) ******* and look around a bit
By "looking around a bit" means travelling 30 jumps, no thanks. I would rather give the 5-6 man gank squads that are roaming an incentive to pick equal fights. As it is now, one side always runs/cloaks/logs off/docks unless taken by surprise. There is something wrong with that.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Valan
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:52:00 -
[20]
Ships are cheaper now than they were. The nature of PvP hasn't changed. Your point has been proven wrong by history. People actually fit more expensive set ups now when they don't have to just get an edge.
PvPers have full snake sets and 5% hardwirings, a couple of mill on a ship won't make a difference.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.26 16:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Valan
Ships are cheaper now than they were. The nature of PvP hasn't changed. Your point has been proven wrong by history. People actually fit more expensive set ups now when they don't have to just get an edge.
PvPers have full snake sets and 5% hardwirings, a couple of mill on a ship won't make a difference.
That's completely wrong. A while back, a single ship could still take on several enemies and they actually did. The nature of PVP has changed dramatically in this regard, far fewer fights happen now due to the nerfs and because consequently, people look at numbers and run unless they have a massive advantage.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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ArmyOfMe
Exotic Dancers Club
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Posted - 2008.01.26 16:16:00 -
[22]
if anything i would say its way to cheap to loose ships in pvp these days.
i miss the old prices when losses actually felt like a loss
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Solasta Kovacs
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.01.26 16:20:00 -
[23]
If people genuinely want fights- they can readily be found.
1- Half the skill of pvp in eve is catching and trapping the opposition
2- Pop over to Tri space, Bob space etc- see if they run when outnumbered.
If you make ships nice and cheap- then yes you might get a few more battles (though people are as scared of damage to their epeen as to their wallets). However, the battles would be largely meaningless.
Ha ha I killed your 250m fitted Command Ship becomes I kileld your comm ship- towhich the reply is "thats okay im going to mine veld for ten minutes and buy three more". Its worthless. no risk- no thrill
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Beowulf Scheafer
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Posted - 2008.01.26 16:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
if anything i would say its way to cheap to loose ships in pvp these days.
i miss the old prices when losses actually felt like a loss
exactly my oppinion
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Tzar'rim
Minmatar
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.01.26 16:27:00 -
[25]
Funny how you completely focus on the cost of T2 ships. If you can't or don't want to afford it, then don't. Personally I don't believe in expensive ships&setups unless there's a tactical need for them (recons). Ofcourse 1 on 1 a T2 ships would probably win, but when are fights ever 1 on 1?
You have to understand that people running from even fights isn't exactly because of the expensive ship they're flying it's because the fight "wouldn't be interesting" ie, there's a chance they actually might lose (I'm looking at you nanogangs).
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Pan Crastus
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.26 16:29:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Solasta Kovacs
If people genuinely want fights- they can readily be found.
Perhaps, but people do not genuinely want fights. Most of them at least. Which is one of the points in the OP.
Quote:
Ha ha I killed your 250m fitted Command Ship becomes I kileld your comm ship- towhich the reply is "thats okay im going to mine veld for ten minutes and buy three more". Its worthless. no risk- no thrill
The thrill is in the fight, not in the enemy's loss.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.26 16:30:00 -
[27]
I never had problems with losing ships and ship costs. Simply I hate to see my pod killed without reason.
While territorial control in 0.0 generally is a sufficient reason for me, people that don't even try to ransom the pod but "do it because they love the squishy sound" in low sec or in the occasional encounter in 0.0 are a sufficient reason to avoid most PvP.
The other reasons are that it is generally boring and that doing PvP for PvP sake, treating the other players like glorified NPC don't interest me.
Ship prices is not a reason.
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Archa
Caldari
Chickens with an Attitude
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Posted - 2008.01.26 16:34:00 -
[28]
I'm sorry. but your arguments are so completely based on nothing.
1. I like the fact that when I lose a ship. It actually hurt my wallet. It keep me sharp and it keeps pvp a thrill.
2. Good fights still happen. Just look at all the pvp videos in the forum. There are some serious good fights there. Getting a good fight is tough. But getting good ganks is tough to. That is the whole point. If it was easy then nobody would go into 0 sec or low sec because they would get their asses shot any time of the day.
3. Ofcourse pirates run when they are faced with an equal sized gang. They have turrets on them. They can't use drones. And can't use fast nanoships because gate turrets will blow those up with ease.
Face it. Pirates with gate turrets are crippled. You want good equal fights? go to 0 sec.
4. If you think your ships are to expensive use cheaper ones.
As simple as that.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.26 17:00:00 -
[29]
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
The issue is... well, uhm... rigs. Rigs cost anywhere from 30M to 100M. They make the setups expensive, but they cannot be obtained by killing ships. Solution: make rigs droppable. (increase PVP reward)
Can't be obtained if you don't take the time to salvage the wreck for rig parts.
On the other side of the coin if you salvage a T2 wreck you have a good chance of getting several millions in rig parts.
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Valan
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.26 17:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Valan
Ships are cheaper now than they were. The nature of PvP hasn't changed. Your point has been proven wrong by history. People actually fit more expensive set ups now when they don't have to just get an edge.
PvPers have full snake sets and 5% hardwirings, a couple of mill on a ship won't make a difference.
That's completely wrong. A while back, a single ship could still take on several enemies and they actually did. The nature of PVP has changed dramatically in this regard, far fewer fights happen now due to the nerfs and because consequently, people look at numbers and run unless they have a massive advantage.
Its always been numbers for the majority. We attack greater numbers and win, T2 and specialisation make it easier than ever to attack larger numbers. You seriously need to post with your main.
/start sig
I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on.
/end sig |
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