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Losses are still too costly (discuss)

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Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:19:00 - [91] No. If anything, we need more risk, especially to T1. I'd want to cap T1 insurance to 50%. T2 ship and mod prices are low enough as it is, adding to the problem. I can see the point about less fights occuring, but combat is pointless without risk. Quantity does not compensate for quality. --- CEO
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:21:00 - [92] Originally by: SiJira the problem is that newbs want to pvp in battleships and you can tell them but you cant make them understand why a frigate and a cruiser are just as useful as two battleships and sometimes better Then they are ******s and deserve to lose the isk they dont have. Noobs belong in frigs, half-noobs in support and advanced skills in bigger ships. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:33:00 - [93] Learn how to make ISK
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:35:00 - [94] Originally by: Steve Hawkings Learn how to make ISK Its easy, you buy time cards for real money and then sell them for isk. Easy stuff... Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Casino Alkasar Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:45:00 - [95] Oh yes please! lets make EvE more forgiving, i hate it when i sit on the edge of my chair in pvp cause i realy fear to loose my ship. make it more like a run to your corps. logofski is cheap though _________________ itze mine
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:49:00 - [96] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Steve Hawkings Learn how to make ISK Its easy, you buy time cards for real money and then sell them for isk. Easy stuff... Yes, thats a method for people with more money than sense, or people that value their time by the $, not my method though im afraid.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2008.01.28 03:31:00 - [97] The only thing I'd ever change if it was up to me would be the stupid alpha clone system. I think ship loss pain is necessary, but I really don't see how losing a month off BS V contributes in any positive way to the games 'fun' factor when you get drunk and undock in an alpha clone to solo a bob fleet in an iteron V. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Culdees	Posted - 2008.01.28 06:29:00 - [98] eve is not a pvp game at all. it never has been and probably never will be. to pvp there needs to be some equality in the options given to the players, in eve people start at different times and new players will never catch them. pick any true pvp game/sport etc and you will notice both sides/teams are given equal tools and rules/environment to play. in eve the rules/environment are the same, the tools will never be. i guess the only thing that would do that would be a skill cap. to a new player a cruiser would mean the same as a carrier to an old player, so what each is able to field on the playingfield is very different. the chance of a true battle of the players ability is next to nil. now the true test of the person v another person in eve is only one thing- how fast one got from point a to point b in development, but even this is skewed by the nerfs and general changes to the game. as has been said before in this thread, to new players the losses are too great to pvp in any form, anyone that disputes that is kidding themselves. the main isk earner for new players requires good standing, no entry into low/no sec space, good set of implants + missions. of course isk and skills can be earned other ways, but that is the quickest within the game. this all excludes the possibility of careless battles, even corp/war targets. of course there are the players who dont play themselves from the start and just ask for everything to be given to them without regard to where the initial isk come from, but i find they are a very exclusive crowd in most games. most will want to solo and involve themselves in the gameworld to some extent. to old players who for the mostpart already have a steady flow of isk (probably from the new players) the losses are to little. to get more people into pvping in eve would be impossible without some sort of tournament or fleet battles with faction supplied ships and equal fittings etc. alliance wars/pos and politics within eve are just rubbish hardly worth the effort investigating let alone participating unless you want to give up your rl. at any given time i would say that less than 20% of eves players were involved in something other than missions/mining/trading/general so called carebear stuff. a quick look at the map show that there are more people/activity in one good lvl4 agent mission system than there are in some entire 0.0 regions making pvp for the general eve population would bring more to that game for sure. of course, we need that like a hole in the head.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 07:03:00 - [99] OP is wrong. Take WoW for example, people still hate to die in WoW, yet the only death penalty is a piddly amount of repair fee and having to walk back to your corpse. Or even guild wars, arena style pvp with literally no death penalty. What happens? Every other game you get a guy that refuses to simply fight and die and just runs in circles in hopes of dragging the game out forever. A lot of people online get very angry at losing, even if there is no death penalty. And most of these people are what we would call carebears in eve.
Illyrinia Caldari Custodis Silenti	Posted - 2008.01.28 07:20:00 - [100] you have to look at it this way each ship has a sp level you should be at before you should fly it- examples of sp per ship reqs(just random numbers) 900k-2m frigs/dessy 2m-8m cruisers 8m-10m bcs 11m-15m bs (tier one) or hacs 15m-20m commands 20m-30m t2 bs 30m-40m carrier 40m-50m dread 50m+ titan your skipping 3 parts of the game, if you go right to bs. your losing the valuable experience you get by flying cruisers in combat. in wow do you skip all the levels to the end game in weeks? (i dont play wow so i dont know DEATH TO WOW!) You are trying to post to a locked thread CONCORD has been notified

ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2008.01.28 07:29:00 - [101] I would suggest it is usually the time between fights that can be a real killer for those that have to go and get a new ship and get all that stuff back in place. (The time to collect the modules and fit them, not the money to buy them) Partailly because everything in EVE is all over the place and you have to spend nearly an hour hunting down and buying the stuff if you do not make back-up copies. (Which seems only logical if you want to PvP a lot) However, considering Insurance covers only the basic mineral needs of T2 ships and Faction Ships I do think better Insurance for them would be nice. Right now you are much better off Never Insuring T2 or Faction. It is not even remotely worth it. That would be like Insuring a Lotus Elise Exige for the same price as a 10 year old Honda Civic with the same payout. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2008.01.28 08:08:00 - [102] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Loss should hurt more (getting rid of insurance would be just about right) but escape should be more likely/simpler, and not just for risk reasons. You hit one thing on the head wonderfuly and I just must comment to that effect. One of the big reasons a lot do not want to even bother going into a fight is because they know that if they find they cannot stand up to it (which I think many realize is likely to be the case) then they know all they can do is sit there and wait to die. Especailly with the HIC but even before it the chance of escaping once locked up tends to be around 1% unless the entrapers are fools. So once you are locked down you have 3 Choices, Self Destruct if you have time to spite your killers, Start spamming the warp command so maybe if you are super lucky and have 0 lag your pod can escape, or put in a futile effort to kill something which will not happen before you die. Now with that in mind, the general player not having a strong desire to lose and even less of a desire to essentailly walk right into a hopeless combat situation where they stand about 1% Chance of even being able to get away and 0% Chance to accomplish any sort of victory, the general population is going to have little to no interest in risking themselves in PvP combat. As has been suggested many times it is mostly Gate Ambushes that really promote that idea of how PvP in EvE works but they are very common so there is plenty of reason to rely on them for an example. If you had to hunt your prey down carefuly and they had a good ability to run then Combat would happen a fair bit more often because there would be a glimmer of hope. Just check out the Nano Gangs, they Nano because they know it is their only chance of being able to GET OUT if they get trapped, they might be able to speed off before big nasty stuff that would kill them has the chance. Who would not want that? In the meantime unlike flying Intercepters or Frigs for a similar effect the Nano Gangs stand a chance of actually killing another ship sometime within the next hour. Very attractive alternative to sitting around and waiting for your enemy to finish you off so you can try to save your Pod. However, the loud minority of PvP'ers who prefer to slaughter foes in assisted suicide rather than "fight" them or anything even CLOSE to a similar level of power and proficiency will tend to get their way in those matters and thus be left only to whine that they cannot find any victims because the victims are tired of that BS and have done the smartest thing they could: Avoid the Killers. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
Illyrinia Caldari Custodis Silenti	Posted - 2008.01.28 08:11:00 - [103] until you loose a chimera, or any capital ship, you can stfu. losses are fine, the risk is fine, you just need to be LESS lazy and mine! carebear... You are trying to post to a locked thread CONCORD has been notified
Jucknor Reyne	Posted - 2008.01.28 08:37:00 - [104] I agree in 1 respect especially as I lost $1.8 billion today in hardware to VETO who are a pirate gang. My issue is not with VETO as they are doing what pirates are meant to do in this game. My issue is that for someone who wants to be a solo player (I pay for 3 accounts) and only wants to be an industrialist you are forced to move out of empire / >0.5 space if you want to run a pos and do meaningful construction. I have no interest in PvP play nor doing mission grind to raise my standing so I can launch a POS in empire space. But alas I am forced to be involved in combat if i want to play eve or limit my activities to mining and trading in empire - sorry but that is not worth the fees for the 3 accounts I pay. People talk about a risk reward balance but where is the risk for a gang of multiple players attacking an industrial ship? The game is (was) fundementally good but the balance is not right. I have no problem with us all agreeing to don the armour and having a joust in large fleet battles - but reality is that is not what eve is about. From CCP's perspective if they are not catering to a segment of players then they will not keeps us and will lose long term paying customers. I hope the game chnages and I may check it out again in the future.
Cosmar Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.01.28 08:53:00 - [105] Edited by: Cosmar on 28/01/2008 08:53:38 I think the costs or dieing are calculated to take enough isk out of the economy to keep it balanced. You can't just lower costs and expect it to just make people risk more, instead it could very well cause inflation instead because less money is taken out and people still don't risk their ships, as certain people are just too risk-adverse to ever do so. You can balance different things between them (like increase t2 insurance payout but decrease t1 at the same time), but the bottom line needs to be the same.
baltec1	Posted - 2008.01.28 09:14:00 - [106] Originally by: Jucknor Reyne I agree in 1 respect especially as I lost $1.8 billion today in hardware to VETO who are a pirate gang. My issue is not with VETO as they are doing what pirates are meant to do in this game. My issue is that for someone who wants to be a solo player (I pay for 3 accounts) and only wants to be an industrialist you are forced to move out of empire / >0.5 space if you want to run a pos and do meaningful construction. I have no interest in PvP play nor doing mission grind to raise my standing so I can launch a POS in empire space. But alas I am forced to be involved in combat if i want to play eve or limit my activities to mining and trading in empire - sorry but that is not worth the fees for the 3 accounts I pay. People talk about a risk reward balance but where is the risk for a gang of multiple players attacking an industrial ship? The game is (was) fundementally good but the balance is not right. I have no problem with us all agreeing to don the armour and having a joust in large fleet battles - but reality is that is not what eve is about. From CCP's perspective if they are not catering to a segment of players then they will not keeps us and will lose long term paying customers. I hope the game chnages and I may check it out again in the future. 1. get a blockade runner and fit it properly and you will blow past all but the most powerful gate camps 2. you cannot complain about not being able to put a POS in empire space if you are unwilling to work for it. 3. Strike a deal to supply an allience so that you can get at least some protection 4. never ever take a hauler/transport into dangerous space with all cargo expanders fitted 5. use one of your alts to scout ahead of you so you know if there is a bubble/large camp. 6. never put all your eggs in one basket. 7. stealth is your friend, get a cloak. welcome to the world of low sec gun running.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ama-gi	Posted - 2008.01.28 10:05:00 - [107] Originally by: Pan Crastus Before you all scream "he wants WoW-like PVP": no, I don't. However, the cost of losing ships still seems to be too high in EVE, so the typical PVP goes like this: - 5-6 man roaming gang looking for 5-6 v 1 situations (ganking ratters/miners/haulers), then logging off or running away when they get 5-6 or more opponents - larger fleets not getting any fights even if similar numbers are present on the other side. Logoffski / Dockupski again. - most of EVE's actual PVP is gate camping and there it's mostly 10 people shooting shuttles and noob ships - the only way to force a fight is to shoot POSes etc. I can imagine that if ships cost 20-25% of what they currently do, more fights would happen. I do realize that other costs are involved with losses (time to get a new ship, clones, time to move to where you were/want to be). Perhaps I'm wrong and prices are fine though - discuss. Possible solutions: - higher insurance for T2 ships - fewer modules getting destroyed when ships pop - lower building/invention cost for T2 (yeah, scream little T2 ripoffskis) - ??? hmm let's see... use tech 1 ships? use t1 gear? If it's too expensive, then you're using gear you cannot afford. Period. My rule is never to undock in anything I cannot afford to easily replace. So your choices are too boost your isk earning potential or face the fact that you need to fly cheaper stuff. -- No love for the Matari
Barthezz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 10:43:00 - [108] The current loss-factor in eve causes blobbing. If you discount the blobbing caused by sovereignty warfare, then you will see that almost all blobbing is done for one thing. Maximize casualties to your enemy while minimizing your own. Or whats called, safety in numbers. Why would you do a fair 10 v 10 fight (and possibly getting a really good fight out of it), when you can crush your enemy in a 20 v 10 fight, or even a 50 v 10 fight. Hell, Smashkill did it to a gang of ours 3 days ago. We had a gang of around 10 people, we went after another gang (smashkill) of roughly the same size. The moment we engaged, local went to 55. You cant tell me a 40-45 vs 10ish is a 'good fight', its a gank. And why do ganks happen? Because losing a ship is expensive. I swear that if losing a ship wasnt as costly as it is now, then more people would go out to pvp and be less worried about losing a ship. End result (imho) would be (moar and) better fights. Anyways the problem is, this cant ever be implemented in eve as it would ruin the game as-is. Too much isk in the game, too much is focused on the loss factor. The most annoying thing about losing a ship is the time associated with it. First you need to get the money back (unless you own a T2 bpo, it'll take a bit of time), then you need to go to a market-hub where you have to fit a new ship, then fly it out to where ever you live. That will easily cost you several hours (not even including the 'getting money back' part), and while this isnt a huge issue for the hardcore players, the casual player will more likely prefer to blob the hell out of your gang then have a chance at losing a ship. --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Jucknor Reyne	Posted - 2008.01.28 10:57:00 - [109] Baltec1 thanks for your comments. My post was really around the practicality of being a soloist in this game. In respect to your point i note: 1. get a blockade runner and fit it properly and you will blow past all but the most powerful gate camps Time wise very difficult to support a POS without better cargo volumes then a blockade runner - i have one but just could not keep up fuel without running the freighter. 2. you cannot complain about not being able to put a POS in empire space if you are unwilling to work for it. 13 months / 3 hours a day / 3 accounts - saved 1.8 billion to buy a freighter and POS set up plus countless millions on intermediatary ships. Not looking for any shortcut just not interested in missioning - and not sure of any other way to run a POS in > 0.5 space. My comment was around getting your standing raised in another way ie say volume of ore mined or rates paid in processing to local stations.Its about appealing to a wider audience. 3. Strike a deal to supply an allience so that you can get at least some protection Could have but wanted to go solo. Ironically did approach VETO before hand but they were not interested. 4. never ever take a hauler/transport into dangerous space with all cargo expanders fitted 2 warp stabilisers fitted to my industrials. Unfortunately I was flying a freighter 5. use one of your alts to scout ahead of you so you know if there is a bubble/large camp. all 3 alts were online 2 were in cloaked covert ops on each side of gate - unfortunately the pirates were claoked on each side of gate too! 6. never put all your eggs in one basket. couldn't agree more - still large capitals / freighters will always be a large single investment. 7. stealth is your friend, get a cloak. Yep - use them where a can on the industrials. ** Upshot as per my original quote I dont think a solo industrialist is a practical line of work in eve other then being a rock monkey or trader. welcome to the world of low sec gun running.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.28 11:03:00 - [110] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Bah, youre missing the point of eve and the deathpenalty. PvP in eve is the most exciting pvp youll ever come across, not because of fanct pewpew grafics or cool manouvers, its because the death penalty is high. You take that away and youll destroy the game. More on topic, to answer this: T1 insurance is too high and is the broken thing not T2 insurance... Many games offer "PvP" far more exciting then anything in Eve, like IL2 and even competetive games like GTR2/GTL for example. You know, games that take skill. Those games don't have spaceships though :-/ But I agree, T1 insurance is too high, and I'd even go as far as to agree with Bellum (as much as I hate to do that) all insurance should go, or at least be reduced to basic insurance. Have an exception for newbs, though.

Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.28 11:10:00 - [111] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 28/01/2008 11:12:13 Originally by: ZerKar Originally by: Adunh Slavy Loss should hurt more (getting rid of insurance would be just about right) but escape should be more likely/simpler, and not just for risk reasons. If you had to hunt your prey down carefully and they had a good ability to run then Combat would happen a fair bit more often because there would be a glimmer of hope. ... However, the loud minority of PvP'ers who prefer to slaughter foes in assisted suicide rather than "fight" them or anything even CLOSE to a similar level of power and proficiency will tend to get their way in those matters and thus be left only to whine that they cannot find any victims because the victims are tired of that BS and have done the smartest thing they could: Avoid the Killers. Thanks ZerKar, that does justice to "reasons" in my above quote. Combat should be more fluid. Let's just suppose a few simple changes and imagine how it would change combat, and make it still hurt. First, players have a decent chance of escaping a fight that is in more in balance with the natural world - that is, those who flee succeed more often than they fail. All those nature shows we watch, with lions catching gazelles, those camera men have days and days of watching failed hunts to capture one successful hunt on film. If the lions always succeeded, there would be no gazelles, The Serengeti would look like, à wait for it à low sec. But, what if when a player had a PVP aggression timer, they could not dock or jump. Meaning, if I get shot at, I can run away from the grid, but I can't get out of space, except by being a twink bastard and logging off, but then I could be probled and blown up. And what if players had a much simpler time of scanning one another, allowing the directional scanner a much larger range that gets more accurate results the closer it is to something and the larger the signature of the target. What would happen? Jump through a gate and get shot, so you run and hope to rep before someone finds you and takes you out, or the PVP timer expires before the enemy can find you and you continue on your travels. What does this mean for hunters - You need to camp your gate and get a shot on someone to get the timer, then your gang spreads out and uses hit and run tactics against your enemy to wear them down - the chase begins. To counter all of this from a risk/reward factor - just do away with insurance for anyone over three months old. Once you're past 3 mos, you should know very well how to make enough ISK to cover the sort of things you should be flying. We can guess who would hate this sort of change, gank bears. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Red Harvest	Posted - 2008.01.28 11:34:00 - [112] Very simple rule: Dont fly what you cant afford to loose!
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.28 11:42:00 - [113] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Combat should be more fluid. Let's just suppose a few simple changes and imagine how it would change combat, and make it still hurt. First, players have a decent chance of escaping a fight that is in more in balance with the natural world - that is, those who flee succeed more often than they fail. Barring 0.0 bubble camps which make slower ships very risky, players have quite decent chances of escaping a fight provided they know what they're doing even in conventionally-fit ships. If they fit for it, they have quite good odds of escaping fights - it doesn't even require full-out nanoing (which is a way of maximising your chances to flee at cost of DPS/tank/etc). Many fights end up w/out any casualities taken or incurred; especially high-speed chases (and quite often solo situations). I would quite certainly have at least double the kills (most likely triple) if I got every target I was going for and nobody was able to run away. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Niobius Julius Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.28 12:05:00 - [114] Edited by: Niobius Julius on 28/01/2008 12:13:53 To the OP: Short answer: NO! Longer asnwer: if ppl stay safespotted or docked, thats because they logically think they cant win this fight. They wait and counterattack when they think they have an advantage. I dont see antyhing wrong with it. How to make them fight - thats the question you should ask for. Same with larger fleets. Gatecamping is valid tactic, again I dont see anything wrong with it. Some players favor it more, some less. And its not always done just for the sake of killing. It might have some strategic value. Sure there would be more fights if ship price go down, but clearly it would lose all the thrill and excitment. I can imagine bs groups fighting each other for hours, while pilots bring new ship everytime they lose one, in 0.0 you meet only carriers and titans, lowsec is flooded by faction fit nanomachs and vindicators.... OMG. No, thanks. All in all, ships and mods are much cheaper than before, so the trend is prices are going down. Your wishes might even come true after sometime vOv EDIT: just read some other posts - how much whining! WTF is wrong with people? Does every player now posts a topic how the game should be changed to his own wishes, needs and style arguing blindly his statements as an absolute truth and forgetting eve is played by thousands other players, different styles and motives?? And lastly, dont you ever think that there is slight possibility that the game feature or element exists in the game in this certain form, because CCP might know slightly more about it and generally about the game??
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2008.01.28 12:22:00 - [115] Originally by: ZerKar Originally by: Adunh Slavy Loss should hurt more (getting rid of insurance would be just about right) but escape should be more likely/simpler, and not just for risk reasons. You hit one thing on the head wonderfuly and I just must comment to that effect. One of the big reasons a lot do not want to even bother going into a fight is because they know that if they find they cannot stand up to it (which I think many realize is likely to be the case) then they know all they can do is sit there and wait to die. Especailly with the HIC but even before it the chance of escaping once locked up tends to be around 1% unless the entrapers are fools. So once you are locked down you have 3 Choices, Self Destruct if you have time to spite your killers, Start spamming the warp command so maybe if you are super lucky and have 0 lag your pod can escape, or put in a futile effort to kill something which will not happen before you die. Now with that in mind, the general player not having a strong desire to lose and even less of a desire to essentailly walk right into a hopeless combat situation where they stand about 1% Chance of even being able to get away and 0% Chance to accomplish any sort of victory, the general population is going to have little to no interest in risking themselves in PvP combat. As has been suggested many times it is mostly Gate Ambushes that really promote that idea of how PvP in EvE works but they are very common so there is plenty of reason to rely on them for an example. If you had to hunt your prey down carefuly and they had a good ability to run then Combat would happen a fair bit more often because there would be a glimmer of hope. Just check out the Nano Gangs, they Nano because they know it is their only chance of being able to GET OUT if they get trapped, they might be able to speed off before big nasty stuff that would kill them has the chance. Who would not want that? In the meantime unlike flying Intercepters or Frigs for a similar effect the Nano Gangs stand a chance of actually killing another ship sometime within the next hour. Very attractive alternative to sitting around and waiting for your enemy to finish you off so you can try to save your Pod. However, the loud minority of PvP'ers who prefer to slaughter foes in assisted suicide rather than "fight" them or anything even CLOSE to a similar level of power and proficiency will tend to get their way in those matters and thus be left only to whine that they cannot find any victims because the victims are tired of that BS and have done the smartest thing they could: Avoid the Killers. QFT. Why do I typically avoid ship PvP? Because I don't have an on-call fleet, so I know that the odds are skewed heavily against me. Feeding ships to blobs and gatecamps is not my idea of fun, nor will I profit from it. So why bother? Thusly, I stick to economic PvP, where I know the numbers, can reasonably engage and disengage, and have decent odds of scoring blood solo. Originally by: Frug Your reputation has been entirely redeemed in my eyes. I now want your babies.
Barthezz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 12:50:00 - [116] Originally by: Niobius Julius Edited by: Niobius Julius on 28/01/2008 12:13:53 Longer asnwer: if ppl stay safespotted or docked, thats because they logically think they cant win this fight. They wait and counterattack when they think they have an advantage. I dont see antyhing wrong with it. How to make them fight - thats the question you should ask for. You just explained why the loss factor is too high. If the loss factor was lower those same people could think : Lets try this and see how many we can take with us. The end result could be surprisingly FUN pvp. Strangely enough the game should be fun and while for several people the 'thrill' of the loss in pvp actually makes them pvp, I see that a for a lot of people this is not the case. There is a lot of casual players out there that play this game to do missions, mine, talk to others, etc. The prospect of losing their hard earned cash in pvp is not their idea of fun. e.g. the times where you go to a station system and instead of seeing people try to kill you, you see them all run to the station to dock. --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
TimMc Gallente Vidar Fierd Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 12:50:00 - [117] No, the point of PvP is the adrenaline of kill or be killed, lose several days/weeks of work or take his day/weeks of work away. The real feeling of loss in this game makes people behave more like real life, falling back and hiding when outnumbered and outgunned (although in RL we don't have clones... yet).
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:01:00 - [118] Originally by: Jucknor Reyne Time wise very difficult to support a POS without better cargo volumes then a blockade runner - i have one but just could not keep up fuel without running the freighter. Thats like complaining one person cant run a titan building constellation. There are things in the game that require more than one person. Do you raid MC in wow with 1 guy? Quote: 2. 13 months / 3 hours a day / 3 accounts - saved 1.8 billion to buy a freighter and POS set up plus countless millions on intermediatary ships. Not looking for any shortcut just not interested in missioning - and not sure of any other way to run a POS in > 0.5 space. My comment was around getting your standing raised in another way ie say volume of ore mined or rates paid in processing to local stations.Its about appealing to a wider audience. How is mining ore or paying them to process the said ore remotely beneficial to the faction from an RP stand point? The whole point of missions is your doing works for them, so in return they like you better. You want to anchor pos in empire? Then work up the standings like everybody else. Alternatively, there are corps out there that offer standing services so you can anchor pos etc. Quote: 3. all 3 alts were online 2 were in cloaked covert ops on each side of gate - unfortunately the pirates were claoked on each side of gate too! This is where you screwed up. You do NOT rely on just a scout to get a freighter through. Your scout on the lowsec side? It shouldve been in the same corp as your freighter, and in a hyena or rapier/huginn. The moment your freighter jumps through, inititate warp and have your alt web it, you will warp instantly. It doesnt matter than the veto guys were cloaked on the gate as well, since recons have a sensor recalibration time and stealthbombers/black ops have a huge scan resolution penalty from fitting the cloak, you WILL get a lock and web before they can lock and scram your freighter. Quote: couldn't agree more - still large capitals / freighters will always be a large single investment. I could withstand losing any of my freighter runs without too much loss. It would hurt, but it wouldnt be crippling. Just because its a large invenstment does not mean it should be all your assets.
baltec1	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:16:00 - [119] Originally by: Jucknor Reyne Baltec1 thanks for your comments. My post was really around the practicality of being a soloist in this game. quote] see theres always a workaround for us industrialists. 1. For missions try doing mining/hauling agents if blowing things up isn't your cuppa tea. Having a POS in 0.7 space is worth its weight in gold so you wouldnt be waisting your time plus you can always sell the LP items for quite a bit of money. 2. For POS fuel get an iterion V, tonnes of room and if it gets killed you dont lose a billion+ isk investment. Or invest in a jump freighter and have it jump right onto the POS, just be mindfull to... 3. scount and look at local, lots of people in local chat means pirates are waiting or an allience/corp, dont go in. Wait for it to empty and then continue. 4. solo industials can still make deals with corps/alliences for protection in exchange for providing much needed supplies. 5. There is a great guide on these forums for the MWD cloak trick for industrial pilots, go read it, it realy does come in handy and lets you give most pirates the V's and yourself a good chuckle as local chat fills with cursing. Dispite the fact I am in a corp I dont have any assistance with my industrial alt and I find low sec trading to be very profitable, and once I get a jump freighter I will be making a fortune supplying a 0.0 station. You just need to keep your wits about you and you will do fine
Niobius Julius Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:14:00 - [120] Originally by: Barthezz Originally by: Niobius Julius Edited by: Niobius Julius on 28/01/2008 12:13:53 Longer asnwer: if ppl stay safespotted or docked, thats because they logically think they cant win this fight. They wait and counterattack when they think they have an advantage. I dont see antyhing wrong with it. How to make them fight - thats the question you should ask for. You just explained why the loss factor is too high. If the loss factor was lower those same people could think : Lets try this and see how many we can take with us. The end result could be surprisingly FUN pvp. Strangely enough the game should be fun and while for several people the 'thrill' of the loss in pvp actually makes them pvp, I see that a for a lot of people this is not the case. There is a lot of casual players out there that play this game to do missions, mine, talk to others, etc. The prospect of losing their hard earned cash in pvp is not their idea of fun. e.g. the times where you go to a station system and instead of seeing people try to kill you, you see them all run to the station to dock. Well, so why this risk factor is too high? Not because CCP commands you to do it. It's because you choose it. Let me explain. This "Fun pvp" as you say exists even now (I wonder why dont you know about it), its when group of players see that odds are agaisnt them, they jump into t1 frigs and t2 cruisers or whatever they can afford to lose and then go for fight to see how many of them they can take out before going pop. So basically you are failing to realise what oportunities the game is giving to you and instead you trying to change the game to your style of gaming. I hate to say it, but there is lots of games in morpg market where loses are not so harsh. Nobody is keeping you here. Eve is different. End of story.



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