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CCP - Please deliver some high-end industrial goals

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Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.01.28 00:14:00 - [1] Hi This is a post for CCP, in which I hope people in a similar situation to mine - or indeed expect to be sometime soon - will voice their thoughts. I've recently come back to EVE after an 18-month break, and I'm concerned by the lack of high-end goals for us industrialists/businessmen/entrepreneurs. I've been playing since June 2003, but have taken many breaks as I get bored easily; I guess in total I've actually been active for about 2-2.5 years. In that time I've built up a pretty significant net worth, and I can fairly passively make about 1b a day again now. But what do I do with it? No "give it to me" comments please, I'm making a point here. The problem is CCP seem to have forgotten us old-timers who play the game for the love of the market and commercial aspect - the very core of the game as it was originally conceived. In years past we aspired to battleship BPO's, then POS's, then T2 BPO's, then capitals, then outposts. But then what? What happens when you've done those things, what do you aspire to? In years past there was always some high-end industrial content that people worked for, but there really is virtually nothing now. When I say that, what I mean is something commercial, something that you can invest in for a reasonable return. We just seem to have climbed the ladder of aspiration that has existed, and the ladder has kind of come to an end. I'm by no means unusual in my financial status - and I know for a fact there are many people much richer than I am - people who don't get bored every six months and go play something else I know many of them feel as I do, and that is evidenced by them logging on for an hour every few days to do whatever they do, and otherwise being pretty much completely inactive. The poor state of ISK control in EVE is typically evidenced by cap ship production now. This should be a high-end fairly exclusive activity with a very high cost of entry; instead every man and his dog is doing it and profits are razor-thin. It's because there is too much ISK in the game and not enough to do with it. We need something new to aspire to in our chosen field. CCP you need to find something for us to sink our ISK into. Please give us entrepreneurs, who joined EVE for the awesome market mechanics you gave us 4.5 years ago, something to do now that we've spent years building up our fortunes. Whether it be bringing back T2 BPO's in some way, player-run high-sec stations (not POS's, proper stations with full facilities), some uber high-end blueprints, whatever it is I don't care. But please think of something before EVE becomes even more watered-down. EVE has always been a step up from other MMO's as it was a thinking mans game, where possibilities were endless. It is losing that fast, and you really need to get it back. Please post your thoughts here. I know I've spoken to many MD regulars on this already, but maybe just maybe if enough people voice their opinions CCP will listen up and have a think about it. Leo
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.28 00:21:00 - [2] High sec player run stations would rock. Especially if we could put labs in them and set prices on those labs for others to use... thus eliminating the bottleneck from NPC stations. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:55:00 - [3] Maybe it will change with Ambulation with the opportunity to operate a business within a space station. Player run stations would indeed, be awesome. Ze logs show NOTHING! ~ Eve Corp and Fansite Web design, development and hosting services
Azraelion Nerevar Gallente Starbound Enterprises Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 02:19:00 - [4] Player run stations would be really interesting. They'd be extremely expensive with huge chartering fees from the alliance, but you could set tax rates and broker fees (stations could compete to become market hubs through low taxes, then make money back on lab or manufacturing fees?). It would open up a whole new dynamic.
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.28 02:47:00 - [5] Hear hear.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.01.28 03:25:00 - [6] I suppose the challenge for CCP is that putting up a station requires sovereignity. How would that affect an empire station? I'd take high chartering fees on top of not being able to anchor all the sovereignity-associated for putting up a High sec station. You could sell Jump-clone services too then. Perhaps that's a problem CCP wouldn't want to introduce though. Improve Market Competition!
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.01.28 03:43:00 - [7] Buy up some Titan BPO's. Fund a good trustworthy pvp corp for defence. Produce. Hold the CEO position of the corp and lock down the bpo's. That's probably about the extent of what you can do. Alternatively work with Proton Power/Deathgrip and help him create a new trade hub. That's really the ultimate challenge.
Chiralos Merchant Princes	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:10:00 - [8] Originally by: Leowen When I say that, what I mean is something commercial, something that you can invest in for a reasonable return. ... It's because there is too much ISK in the game and not enough to do with it. We need something commercial, something that you can invest in for a reasonable loss and still be fun. Amarr Victor.
Mephistocles Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.28 04:33:00 - [9] I'm sure this post summarizes feelings that almost everyone who visits these forums share. I've experienced grumblings from many veterans that we just haven't seen much thought put into the market/industrial side of the game in a while. Of course, everything is connected. They introduce new ships and that gives people new things to build/supply/fly. But, it's really not anything _new_ for us. I've seen lots of great suggestions and ideas in this forum and the suggestion & ideas forum. It just seems like recently (or longer) that this aspect of the game has been ignored. Granted, EVE's economy is by far and away better than any other out there, it doesn't mean that it can't be improved. Just like many vets leaving over the carrier/mom changes/nerfs, unless something exciting starts happening I think a lot of the market vets might start leaving as well.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.28 09:22:00 - [10] @OP /signed

Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 09:41:00 - [11] I was also thinking about this. Is this a real "end of game" event when you have too much ISK to spend? I am nowhere near 1 bil a day, been playing 1.6 years or so and just started isk building since Juli last year. But getting there and will be there in a few months. But what then? I could buy a titan for lets say 84 bil, that's 3 months. I could buy an outpost, which is one month. I could fly cap ships solo every day and loose it. I could buy up BPO's which will only speed up my ISK making. I could give it away to corp members, I could organise sponsored ops in elite factions BS's. Maybe that's why rich people get bored so easily IRL, you need some goal to achieve. Without it, the game is over... ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.01.28 10:51:00 - [12] I'm inclined to agree with the OP. At the moment I'm still excited about earning ISK. In fact I was ecstatics when I compiled my last quarterly (aka. weekly) report and realized I had earned more than 3B. Right now I have goals: in the short term paying off the costs of my Jump Freighter, for the next few months I'll be expanding things and once I've gotten a 100B or so in assets I'm definitely upgrading that Chimera in my sig to a Wyvern. But after that I don't really have goals and if I can manage half of my current growth rate for the next 5 months and 1/3 of it after that I'll be at 1B a day by the end of the year.... That sounds awesome and all but you're quite right when you say that there's nothing on that scale to interest an industrialists. Sure you can buy a Titan or an Outpost but neither of them really apply to an industrialists as both require a massive alliance to do anything with and even at 90B per Titan I could afford 4 a year. The only thing I can think of doing once you reach that kind of income is to get together with a few other equally wealthy individuals and pay a mercenary alliance like MC to move to, take over and guard a region for us so that we would have sufficient sovereignty to safely enter production of Titans and any other capitals worth our time. Presumably mining all of the moons with the substantially reduced fuel costs granted by sovereignty would cover the costs of keeping the mercenary alliance there and we could auction off the rights to mine the region to a mining corp and then post empire equivalent buy prices in region so that we would not just get a sizable fee for mining rights but we wouldn't need to import a ton of our minerals. Amusing as this would be it would probably only work once, if that, and after having done it we would still have the same problems. Which leads me to join you in your conclusion that CCP needs to throw some "high-end" content our way. I'm not really sure what to suggest though I would love to see the ability to create proper stations, not just outposts, and to do so in empire such that we could compete with NPC stations by dropping rates on various services as a few of the above have suggested. I would also like to see the ability to found various types of colonies on planets and moons, massive initial investment and always a logistical nightmare but they produce moon minerals and various other goods that will tie in with the stuff coming in ambulation. There should be lots of levels and types ranging from a simple mining operation with a few hundred workers to terraforming a planet and getting all sorts of industrial goods that can be manufactured into stuff we sell in our shops with ambulation. What's inspiring this is the first settlements in America.... Personally I would like to see more awesome combat stuff, especially stuff to nerf blobing and improve POS warfare and just let us produce it on a grand scale the way capital ships should have been but if CCP thinks ambulation is the way to go then I might as well make some suggestions that work with it. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Clurk Brodon Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.01.28 12:22:00 - [13] Let's build new stargates.
Trading Bunnz Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.28 12:58:00 - [14] Get imaginative. Nothing has really been added for the Missioner's, or the Miner's, that is "new". Not in the context you are talking about. What plagues you, as an industrialist, plagues any specialised character who hits the wall. When its been chatted about in channel, you've had a number of suggestions. Now, none of them directly related to continuing down a path that you feel you have reached the end on, but taking another path. You can't expect CCP to really worry if .05% of active players let their accounts lapse because gasp they don't have a 500b goal to achieve. This is still the same sandbox that appealed to you before, you just need to find new ways to play in it. Sitting back and saying "CCP, give me something to do" is just asking to be disappointed. Having said all that, player owned ACTUAL stations, limit them to lowsec, would be way cool.
Kaaii Caldari PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:04:00 - [15] Wouldn't planetary flight, construction of bases, mining them and running these assets make for a good cash sink/game play? Thought this was coming....save isks? According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Trading Bunnz Get imaginative. Nothing has really been added for the Missioner's, or the Miner's, that is "new". Not in the context you are talking about. What plagues you, as an industrialist, plagues any specialised character who hits the wall. Not strictly true. Miners still mine the same ore yes, but there are new tools for them to do so. Barges, exhumers, and Rorqual. Heck there's even a mini-Rorqual coming. Missioners, well a whole batch of new missions in Trinity, regular patch attention, and again a constantly developing set of tools to do the job. Not so for us. And no I'm not just whining on behalf of 0.5% of the population. I'm also talking of a larger problem CCP has which is that ISK-in-circulation is getting out of control. Depreciation is rife, and without some new high-end content to soak up some ISK from people like me it's going to get much worse. I don't have all the answers, nor even a whole bunch of ideas, but I know a problem when I see one. And with their hugely capable team I'm absolutely confident CCP can find some ways to fix this, as soon as they open their eyes to the issue. Leo
Adrimar Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:23:00 - [17] A few things to consider when you want a new high price tag toy: 1) You probably don't want it to be easily destroyed. 2) You probably don't want it to leave highsec. 3) You want it to help you make more isk. 4) You will probably only need 1. If you consider all this I ask you exactly how such a toy will help relieve the problem? You'll get one and then be bored again. Should CCP put it the "ultra large ship mark I" for 100 billion followed by the mark 2 for 250 billion and the mark 3 for 500? I do the market and industry side of eve myself, but I also do other things in eve. When I notice that I have more than enough isk to fund everything I take a break and go lose some of my isk. If you cannot or are not willing to do this then I don't see how anybody can help you. You have, to use a WoW term, gotten all the "epix" that you can at level 70. Other than in WoW, you can actually do something else in this game. Go join an alliance and manage their production side including all the POS. If that isn't enough of a challenge, then I don't know what is.
Adrimar Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Kwint Sommer snip I'm not really sure what to suggest though I would love to see the ability to create proper stations, not just outposts, and to do so in empire such that we could compete with NPC stations by dropping rates on various services as a few of the above have suggested. snip So you want an isk making machine that nobody can touch in highsec? This will stop you getting bored how? If, on the other hand, it can be taken away from you, would you still want it? You can rest assured that your alliance would be under siege from the first day you put it up.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:39:00 - [19] Personally I doubt I would stop with one station. I would build more of them. Besides stations should be upgradeable. There should be a lot more upgrades than those for current Outpost, so making perfect station would take a lot of time and resources. Then incoming Ambulation would add this another dimension - interiors, shops, ability to move around your property. I would love to sit in coffee shop inside my station and watch customers docking and leaving MY station. Anyways, its a goal. It should be very hard to reach it (expensive to build & maintain) and it should be possible to massively expand it (lot of upgrades from basic version). Since these stations would be in highsec, it would not be possible to take them over by force. However you would have to pay for them to hosting faction and if you fail to pay, your station would be auctioned by hosting NPC faction. That is the way to lose it - bad economical performance or general lack of funds. IMO this would serve as good long term goal for a long time. To sum it up: - ability to build station in empire space - price for anchoring depends on sec status, number of other stations, standings of the owner - monthly price for renting of space depends on same attributes - both above prices should be high, but economically realistic (= it is possible to make profit) - station owner have to let dock everyone, since station is in highsec - station owner can set prices for all station services - station owner can build many upgrades to add/expand station service, however each type of station should offer only certain upgrade capacity and should be specialized for one kind of services - ambulation should provide same features for these stations as for NPC stations (shops, interiors...) - if player fails to pay for space rent, NPC faction puts station on auction using contracts, starting bid at sum owed by previous owner This would let players fit gaps in station services coverage and increase supply of high demand services. It would give players massive long term goal. Oh well, I can keep dreaming.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:53:00 - [20] Hhmmm indeed. Maybe someone can use his/her ISK to name a new solarsystem? 500bil to name it or so. Or name a planet? Moon? Star? An upgradable and expandable empire station would be nice too. But then I want a disco in it, with Techno Viking. Or a jumpable superstation? You will become a godlike entity in Eve terms if you own one. Or [here can come multiple briliant idea's ccp, hire me to find out more!] ;) ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.

Trading Bunnz Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:59:00 - [21] Quote: Not strictly true. Miners still mine the same ore yes, but there are new tools for them to do so. Barges, exhumers, and Rorqual. Heck there's even a mini-Rorqual coming. Missioners, well a whole batch of new missions in Trinity, regular patch attention, and again a constantly developing set of tools to do the job. Not so for us. I disagree with this simple analogy you put here. In the same way that these have "changed" mining and missioning, the building of these, the deployment of POS chains, the moon mining boon and invention have all changed the way we, as industralists, deliver our product and even change the product we deliver. But its not really a change for anyone. Yep, new missions, even new ships. Same boring old jump in, kill some rats, pick up something, go back to agent. And the same for miners, except now instead of just jetcan mining, they can whoa compress it in a capital industrial ship. But the Rorqual's change hasn't yet been fully felt I dont think. And I honestly believe its a great stepping stone for mining. I dont totally disagree with you Leowen, the end game of industry for eve is easier reached today than it used to be. And there is oodles of isk sloshing around. Being a billionaire is par for the course these days, being a multi billionaire not much rarer. But you must have risk versus reward. While I'd enthusiastically get behind the concept of lowsec player owned stations, I'd completely be against those being put up in highsec without a critical evaluation of the risk v reward equation. On other issues, what about introducing another Cap Ind ship, that does manufacturing? Lowsec only. Can't dock. Gives bonuses to manufacturing. I mean, its obvious that "factory slots" can be fitted to ships (see Rorqual!) so why not give us industrialists something like that to work towards. And maybe a ship that allows you to "carry" your buy/sell orders around region to region, thereby making you basically a travelling salesman? (Have to consider how that worked to avoid exploiting it for cargo carrying!) Or what about perhaps activating some of the skills that look so cool in the datadump but that don't actually exist or aren't seeded yet. Reverse Engineering anyone? BPC's from dropped loot? How cool. Melt your Estamels Invul Field for the chance of getting a 2-5 run BPC or perhaps even an Estamel's decryptor to use for invention? Or, my personal favourite, have invention actually target specific ship factors. "Bunnz Industries Rook", with extra shield res at the expense of cap. A database nightmare, for sure, but thats not my worry. Or the "Bunnz Industries Rhea" with 4x the jump range but only 1/4 the cargo capacity? Have these kinds of modifications available to inventors, with the right tools, equipment and skills, and the game becomes far more alive. Further, it allows us industrialists to get some brand recognition, similar to pirates, alliances, corps etc. Everyone will want to own a "Bunnz Industries Anti-Angels Raven" for running missions, because it gets a 25% resistance bonus to kin/therm at the cost of 50% of existing EM res! There are many ways CCP could extend the marketplace, but relying on them to do any of it to meet your needs in the game is short sighted and as I said above, going to lead to disappointment. You need to find your OWN way to play in this sandbox.
Level4 Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:01:00 - [22] Edited by: Level4 on 28/01/2008 15:02:19 Perhaps the real problem has been the dissapearence of unique expensive content, owning a T2 bpo used to mean something , it was a goal ppl with lots of isk had, Thanx to invention its yet another mainstream item.. Every item in Eve seems to become mainstream ( easely accessable and cheap ) , this makes it easy for the ever increasing population at the expense of boring the industrial veterans to death :) There is no easy solution for this, perhaps indeed ambulation will open new doors.. It depends on how far CCP is willing to go with the concept without it turning into another Second Life debacle.. join channel "Profit".
Oleksiy1	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:03:00 - [23] I'd like to have a personal station next to Jita 4-4, but with lower taxes. It's gonna be a lot of fun Another way to spend isk is yo become a sponsor of any pvp corp or even an alliance. That's a lot of action and waste of isk in one flavour
Jolaqa Voruska Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:13:00 - [24] Quote: I can fairly passively make about 1b a day Quote: The poor state of ISK control in EVE Quote: I know for a fact there are many people much richer than I am Those 3 statements sum up the problem in a nutshell. If you couldn't make 1B isk in a day, then you wouldn't have the problem. CCP needs to make it much harder to make that much isk; you should certainly not be able to make it by passively checking the market a few times a week. But since you already have that much isk, do as a few others have suggested, get together with some other people and see how you can spend it. It is a MMO afterall. Quote: love of the market and commercial aspect - the very core of the game as it was originally conceived The game has evolved to something new....have you?
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:26:00 - [25] As Ricdic said, end game is building titans. Until Titans are produced like motherships are produced right now, you don't really have a whole lot you can complain about. There's nothing lacking--that is end game. Just because you'd prefer a separate end game doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just out of curiosity, of the people here that are signing the OP and agreeing there are lacking aspects to market and industrial areas, can you afford to run a titan production business yet? Can you pay for the space and the defense and the materials? Do you have the time and patience and mentality to handle that? Chances are, everyone except Shadarle answered no to that. The point is, the hardcore, expensive, time consuming, monotonous, rich, exclusive area of industry does exist. PS: Player stations in high sec could be very cool. Off the top of my head, though, I would say a requirement is that it isn't "player" owned, but "Alliance" owned, just to encourage more group oriented efforts there.
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:33:00 - [26] Once you finalize your personal business processes, you need to figure out how to secure your personal business market. If you want to have more fun interact with more people. Of course you're going to get bored if all you do is rack up a bigger high score in your wallet. Figure out how to keep people who do the same thing you do from making the same money you do, and fun will follow.
Adrimar Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Riethe snip PS: Player stations in high sec could be very cool. Off the top of my head, though, I would say a requirement is that it isn't "player" owned, but "Alliance" owned, just to encourage more group oriented efforts there. Nobody who has proposed this has made a clear statement whether or not they would be open to capture or destruction. It they are safe from either then they will probably only make the situation the OP wants to get avoid worse.
Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:40:00 - [28] I am weary of empire based player run stations as they would circumvent the whole risk reward process. I also would not want new territory for boring POS wars. I support the idea in principle, with the following procedure or rules: 1. Corporations with a corporate standing of 8.0 or greater would purchase a "Station Charter", and would be able to use it, in conjunction with an outpost egg, to anchor a station in an empire system. 2. Only systems with no stations can be used. 3. Instead of POS's and POS fuel, you use new npc items that go towards station maintenance on a weekly basis. 4. The empire, realizing you investing billions to construct the station, gives you exclusive rights to the station for 12 months. 5. After 12 months, the rights to the station is auctioned off by the empire to the next corp that wants to control it for the next 3 month period. 6. Corporations running the station would get income from docking fees, brokerage fees, refine taxes...etc. 7. If the station gets no bidders (e.g. bad location) that meet a minimum bid, then the station falls into a state of disrepair. People can dock and remove items, but not add any new ones to the hangar. None of the services work. 8.If someone buys the rights, they have to provide fuel for the period the station was inactive in (to make up for the state of disrepair), in addition current fuel for continued operation. 9. If the station is dormant for year, it falls into a state of disrepair and its orbit decays, destroying it.
YouGotRipped Gallente Ewigkeit Galactic Research	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:44:00 - [29] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 28/01/2008 15:50:54 Ambulation is nothing. Personally I'm tired of everything in this game being strictly determined by skills. I'm looking forward to the day when CCP will choose to add to that some space fighter simulator combat redesign while maintaining the economics aspects unchanged. As for you Leo I understand that you're bored, you need a new perspective, this thread is certainly paying off for you, no? Hope so... otherwise we'll miss you. ---- typo
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Riethe As Ricdic said, end game is building titans. Until Titans are produced like motherships are produced right now, you don't really have a whole lot you can complain about. There's nothing lacking--that is end game. Just because you'd prefer a separate end game doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just out of curiosity, of the people here that are signing the OP and agreeing there are lacking aspects to market and industrial areas, can you afford to run a titan production business yet? Can you pay for the space and the defense and the materials? Do you have the time and patience and mentality to handle that? Chances are, everyone except Shadarle answered no to that. The point is, the hardcore, expensive, time consuming, monotonous, rich, exclusive area of industry does exist. I dont think that Titan production can be end-game for industry oriented player. It is more about combat/politics than about industry. Besides market for these things is very limited and I am not even sure if if can be economically viable. I honestly don't see production of single-purpose ship as an end game or some kind of goal.

Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Robacz I dont think that Titan production can be end-game for industry oriented player. It is more about combat/politics than about industry. Besides market for these things is very limited and I am not even sure if if can be economically viable. I honestly don't see production of single-purpose ship as an end game or some kind of goal. End game in EVE is whatever you decide you want to apply yourself to. Since everyone in this thread fails to realize that, the next best option is producing Titans. Titans are not single-purpose, either. You could also say that Motherships are more about combat/politics yet people completely unrelated to combat they will see produce them. However if you step back and think about when Motherships were first introduced, you can see the differences in availability are vast--I believe the same is capable with titans. (it may not be happen at the same rate or to the same degree, but even if you look around these forums you can find people starting up discussion about titan based IPOs, and just recently we saw a titan sale.)
YouGotRipped Gallente Ewigkeit Galactic Research	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:06:00 - [32] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 28/01/2008 16:07:43 Originally by: Robacz Originally by: Riethe As Ricdic said, end game is building titans. Until Titans are produced like motherships are produced right now, you don't really have a whole lot you can complain about. There's nothing lacking--that is end game. Just because you'd prefer a separate end game doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just out of curiosity, of the people here that are signing the OP and agreeing there are lacking aspects to market and industrial areas, can you afford to run a titan production business yet? Can you pay for the space and the defense and the materials? Do you have the time and patience and mentality to handle that? Chances are, everyone except Shadarle answered no to that. The point is, the hardcore, expensive, time consuming, monotonous, rich, exclusive area of industry does exist. I dont think that Titan production can be end-game for industry oriented player. It is more about combat/politics than about industry. Besides market for these things is very limited and I am not even sure if if can be economically viable. I honestly don't see production of single-purpose ship as an end game or some kind of goal. Of course it's not an end game objective. The experience/exact steps are always the same whether you build a carrier or a damn shuttle. As long as there will be unexplored sections of the game people will always find something that is worth turning into an "end game objective" but this is very relative. I say we continue to derail the thread into researching motivational overdose and the total lack of interest that entails it.
Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Kwint Sommer The only thing I can think of doing once you reach that kind of income is to get together with a few other equally wealthy individuals and pay a mercenary alliance like MC to move to, take over and guard a region for us so that we would have sufficient sovereignty to safely enter production of Titans and any other capitals worth our time. Presumably mining all of the moons with the substantially reduced fuel costs granted by sovereignty would cover the costs of keeping the mercenary alliance there and we could auction off the rights to mine the region to a mining corp and then post empire equivalent buy prices in region so that we would not just get a sizable fee for mining rights but we wouldn't need to import a ton of our minerals. Amusing as this would be it would probably only work once, if that, and after having done it we would still have the same problems. Which leads me to join you in your conclusion that CCP needs to throw some "high-end" content our way. That would be epic. You would go from being a player of the game to being a feature. If I had a vast, personal fortune, I would sink it all on such a project in a heartbeat. Perhaps that is why I do not yet have a vast, personal fortune. Cheers, Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company -- Someday I'll fly too...
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:14:00 - [34] Originally by: Adrimar Originally by: Riethe snip PS: Player stations in high sec could be very cool. Off the top of my head, though, I would say a requirement is that it isn't "player" owned, but "Alliance" owned, just to encourage more group oriented efforts there. Nobody who has proposed this has made a clear statement whether or not they would be open to capture or destruction. It they are safe from either then they will probably only make the situation the OP wants to get avoid worse. My vision would have a continuous bidding process on a limited amount of station "real estate". Anyone can bid, though bids are binding. At the end of the bidding process for each week, a bill is issued for each station's owner in that system. The station owner must pay that bill, or his charter lapses. A station with a lapsed charter still exists, but it's removed from the right-click menu and the overview, and none of the (union) tugboats will tow a ship into your station (i.e., you can't dock. Damn organized labor!). At that point, the top bidder from the auction has bought the slot and can now build his own station, or if he had a pre-existing station with a lapsed charter, he can re-activate it (or he can even activate some else's station, though he of course gets no benefit from doing so other than the ability to dock there if he had assets stranded, and possibly some negotiating capital). Think the Las Vegas Strip, only with the effect of property taxes magnified. If you aren't making enough money off your (casino\|\|station), the value of the land underneath you will dwarf your net revenue, and between taxes and sheer best-interest-of-your-shareholders, you'll sell the land rather than continue operations. And, yeah, a basic station offers nothing but fitting services. It's the Motel 8. Eventually, you can upgrade and upgrade until you get Project CityCenter. As the marginal cost of upgrades is a one-time payment, accompanied by, at most, nominal maintenance costs, the incentives are to build megauberstations with every upgrade in the universe tacked on. MP -- Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral ~~compression~~expansion! WTF?
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:53:00 - [35] Originally by: Adrimar A few things to consider when you want a new high price tag toy: 1) You probably don't want it to be easily destroyed. 2) You probably don't want it to leave highsec. 3) You want it to help you make more isk. 4) You will probably only need 1. If you consider all this I ask you exactly how such a toy will help relieve the problem? You'll get one and then be bored again. Should CCP put it the "ultra large ship mark I" for 100 billion followed by the mark 2 for 250 billion and the mark 3 for 500? I do the market and industry side of eve myself, but I also do other things in eve. When I notice that I have more than enough isk to fund everything I take a break and go lose some of my isk. If you cannot or are not willing to do this then I don't see how anybody can help you. You have, to use a WoW term, gotten all the "epix" that you can at level 70. Other than in WoW, you can actually do something else in this game. Go join an alliance and manage their production side including all the POS. If that isn't enough of a challenge, then I don't know what is. I understand your point but disagree. You can say that of everything in EVE, and if you want to go right back to basics, why have cruisers when everyone could have just stuck to T1 frigs? Putting cruisers in just levelled the game so everyone was back where they started right? EVE is a game, and people like to be entertained and challenged in games. THere are lots of industrialists these days struggling to find either. To my first post - I've only been active about 2-2.5 years and I'm already out of challenges. Most of the old-timers who are trillionaires by now have either completely or virtually given up on EVE. That's a shame. We need another challenge that's all, something new at the top of the tree. Whatever it is, yes it will get old at some point, but that's no reason not to have it. Leo
Adrimar Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Leowen Originally by: Adrimar snip I understand your point but disagree. You can say that of everything in EVE, and if you want to go right back to basics, why have cruisers when everyone could have just stuck to T1 frigs? Putting cruisers in just levelled the game so everyone was back where they started right? EVE is a game, and people like to be entertained and challenged in games. THere are lots of industrialists these days struggling to find either. To my first post - I've only been active about 2-2.5 years and I'm already out of challenges. Most of the old-timers who are trillionaires by now have either completely or virtually given up on EVE. That's a shame. We need another challenge that's all, something new at the top of the tree. Whatever it is, yes it will get old at some point, but that's no reason not to have it. Leo You missed the main point of my post. All smaller things can be destroyed, even in highsec. Those ships that are too tough to be suicide ganked are limited to lowsec. Even those ships that were almost invulnerable in lowsec (motehrships) were given a new counter (Heavy Interdictors). Why should highsec industrialists be give something that can make them a lot of money (5% return doesn't sound like much, but 5% return on 500 billion is a hell of a lot) which cannot be taken from them? Even Tech 2 BPOs can (and have) been lost in transport. Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that I can suicide gank with 20 to 30 battleships? Most probably not. Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that can only be used in lowsec? Most probably not. What you want is a safe way to spend your isk on a safe end-game toy and knowing CCP that isn't going to happen any time soon.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Adrimar You missed the main point of my post. All smaller things can be destroyed, even in highsec. Those ships that are too tough to be suicide ganked are limited to lowsec. Even those ships that were almost invulnerable in lowsec (motehrships) were given a new counter (Heavy Interdictors). Why should highsec industrialists be give something that can make them a lot of money (5% return doesn't sound like much, but 5% return on 500 billion is a hell of a lot) which cannot be taken from them? Even Tech 2 BPOs can (and have) been lost in transport. Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that I can suicide gank with 20 to 30 battleships? Most probably not. Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that can only be used in lowsec? Most probably not. What you want is a safe way to spend your isk on a safe end-game toy and knowing CCP that isn't going to happen any time soon. you might not understand how boring it is doing the same thing people with 10 billion do but with dozens of alts to make it work for 1 trillion Trashed sig, Shark was here
Adrimar Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:22:00 - [38] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Adrimar You missed the main point of my post. All smaller things can be destroyed, even in highsec. Those ships that are too tough to be suicide ganked are limited to lowsec. Even those ships that were almost invulnerable in lowsec (motehrships) were given a new counter (Heavy Interdictors). Why should highsec industrialists be give something that can make them a lot of money (5% return doesn't sound like much, but 5% return on 500 billion is a hell of a lot) which cannot be taken from them? Even Tech 2 BPOs can (and have) been lost in transport. Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that I can suicide gank with 20 to 30 battleships? Most probably not. Would you buy a 500 billion isk toy that can only be used in lowsec? Most probably not. What you want is a safe way to spend your isk on a safe end-game toy and knowing CCP that isn't going to happen any time soon. you might not understand how boring it is doing the same thing people with 10 billion do but with dozens of alts to make it work for 1 trillion Oh, I do, why I don't do it. On the other hand: You avoided the part about the risk free isk making machine.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:27:00 - [39] Originally by: Adrimar Oh, I do, why I don't do it. On the other hand: You avoided the part about the risk free isk making machine. maybe because most people here arent asking for that? Trashed sig, Shark was here
Danari Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.28 21:11:00 - [40] That old game of watching an imaginary number get larger getting you down eh. Buy a mom, undock it in lowsec and go wild. Think of it as carebear goes postal. If you lose it well the game is a lot more interesting as a starving industrialist. Or hire some mercs to grief your competition. Why be an H Ross Perot ("Ya see, the economy is like a Ford pickup. You don't replace the engine if it just needs a set of plugs") when you could be Vito Corleone? Bottom line is there is no higher order game in this game than the projection of power.

Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.01.28 21:17:00 - [41] Originally by: Adrimar What you want is a safe way to spend your isk on a safe end-game toy and knowing CCP that isn't going to happen any time soon. Hmmm nope that's not what I want at all, though thanks for trying to tell me my mind. I'm not asking for a risk-less isk-printing machine. All I'm saying is that some thought needs to be given to high-end challenges for industrialists. The only valid one mentioned so far is Titan production, but as someone said that's as much about combat and territory as it is about industry. There are some good ideas bouncing around in here, and I've seen a lot more in the Ideas board, but what I'm really hoping for here is some consensus opinion that it needs to be looked at in some way. TBH I don't really carte what CCP put in, but I truly believe they need to put something in to a) challenge the uber-rich and b) soak up some ISK. Not for me, really I do mean that, but for the greater good of EVE's future. Leo
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.01.28 21:33:00 - [42] I have no doubt that their are plans for greater isk sinks. However the higher level of gameplay in eve should.... nay... MUST combine industry, territory, and combat. While you may choose to hyper-specialize in industry or trading and avoid involving yourself in the other sides of the game is a testament to the flexibility of Eve, not a lack. What you lack you choose not to go looking for at all. And that is totally upon your own head.
Oleksiy1	Posted - 2008.01.28 22:00:00 - [43] In real life people cannot buy time. In eve world time equals skill points. I think that buying skill points would be a great thing. It MUST be very expensive, but still it must be possible. Buying time is a thrilling experience.
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.01.28 23:02:00 - [44] Buying skill points is easy. Character and Timecode Bazaar...
Callisto Ares Companion Cube Industries	Posted - 2008.01.28 23:59:00 - [45] I'd like to be able to buy and run my own space station at some point if CCP could ever make that interesting and somewhat profitable. Once you get past trying to win with the biggest wallet, there should be something further to grasp for to make your mark with. A lot of us that enjoy the whole market and industry game want ownership just as much as the 0.0 players. I just have never seen the advantage or point of joining a 0.0 corp as an industrialist rather than staying solo and building up my own economic empire.
Katherine Sharpe Caldari Lifeware	Posted - 2008.01.29 00:53:00 - [46] A different spin on this high end goals: Might I suggest that this is not just an eve problem but a RL problem too. However in RL the obscenely rich use their money to fund charities and public buildings. Their solution is to do things to make their name immortal. The equivalent to a charity would be donating ISK to the many many contributors who build a lot of tools (evemon, eft etc)or do free work for the system (eve-radio). In game charities could be giving money to the eve-university (or hiring protection for them). As for public buildings - build a POS in high-sec and donate it to the general public. Maybe CCP could offer to name a station after one of the super-rich. Who wouldn't want to paste their name on Jita-4-4? Now that would be immortality - cheap at 1 trillion ISK. The challenge then is to come up with a better way to give away the most to do the most good.
Adrimar Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.01.29 00:55:00 - [47] Okay, I must admit that I simply do not understand what the OP wants. He wants something that is pure industry. No combat, hence no territorial control. That means no lowsec, no 0.0. No risk that another player can remove, by force, his toy from the game or from his grasp. Most of the people here are suggesting stations that cannot be destroyed and do not need to be fought over. They riskiest suggestion is that you can be barred from your station if somebody constantly outbids you for a piece of real estate. All other end-game content in this game (Outposts, Titans, Motherships) requires the PvPers to collaborate with the Industrialists. Why should the Industrialists not have to collaborate with the PvPers for their end-game content? And as for making a profit: exactly what kind of profit do you want to see? Give me a % ROI to work with here.
Miss CJB Gallente In White Suits	Posted - 2008.01.29 10:59:00 - [48] so its true then, money doesnt by you happeyness?
Kur'Dekaija Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.29 11:13:00 - [49] Dunno if ppl in this thread know about it but their is a thing called ship PVP. It makes you loose ISK so you actually have a reason to grind more ISK. Making ISK just get get ISK if boring in a long run. I for example only gather enough ISK to replace the ship I could possibly loose, such as HACs, BS, CS, Capitals etc. So I suggest you start a corp, recruit/hire ppl, then go invade a NPC region or invade a normal region and start the station/profit thing ppl are talking about over their instead of wishing for something CCP made in high sec. Its more fun than watching market all day and making ISK :) believe me, I do bit of all. Last thoughts: Im just ranting cuz I need ISK for a MS :P
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.01.29 12:06:00 - [50] Originally by: Kur'Dekaija Dunno if ppl in this thread know about it but their is a thing called ship PVP. It makes you loose ISK so you actually have a reason to grind more ISK. Making ISK just get get ISK if boring in a long run. I for example only gather enough ISK to replace the ship I could possibly loose, such as HACs, BS, CS, Capitals etc. So I suggest you start a corp, recruit/hire ppl, then go invade a NPC region or invade a normal region and start the station/profit thing ppl are talking about over their instead of wishing for something CCP made in high sec. Its more fun than watching market all day and making ISK :) believe me, I do bit of all. Last thoughts: Im just ranting cuz I need ISK for a MS :P I do PVP. But i dont buy myself poor in ships, because i want isk for trading and that kind of stuff. Also, pvp isnt a silverbullet when it comes to spending isk. I wanna spend isk, to make more isk. I agree with this whole thread. Give us more goals.


CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:28:00 - [51] The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come.


CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:35:00 - [52] hrrmmm evil thought - income taxes! the IRS in New Eden! I'm not that evil though.....yet

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:36:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. Im happy to hear that you guys have us in mind. But as far as im aware, both plants and ambulation are both plans which eventually will release, if they DO release. And if they do release, i somehow doubt they will be released inside the next 365 days. Unless you can correct me on that, ill be frankly honest and say for now, we want something else.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:04:00 - [54] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. Interesting times ahead it seems. I am also glad to see that Devs are reading this forum.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:29:00 - [55] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. I believe you may be referring to "stores and/or shops" that will be accessable through the ambulation mechanic and of course the subsequent lisence/fees/taxes that come with it. I am looking forward to this. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:44:00 - [56] Originally by: Adrimar Okay, I must admit that I simply do not understand what the OP wants. He wants something that is pure industry. No combat, hence no territorial control. That means no lowsec, no 0.0. No risk that another player can remove, by force, his toy from the game or from his grasp. Most of the people here are suggesting stations that cannot be destroyed and do not need to be fought over. They riskiest suggestion is that you can be barred from your station if somebody constantly outbids you for a piece of real estate. All other end-game content in this game (Outposts, Titans, Motherships) requires the PvPers to collaborate with the Industrialists. Why should the Industrialists not have to collaborate with the PvPers for their end-game content? And as for making a profit: exactly what kind of profit do you want to see? Give me a % ROI to work with here. You're doing it again. I didn't say that territoriality or combat were out of the question, nor low-sec nor even necessarily 0.0. And I'm not looking for a personal "toy". I'm not sure what I'm asking for specifically either I freely admit, I just know that from my first day of playing EVE back in 2003 I loved the industrial and commercial aspect, and I have spent all of my game-time since chasing goals. Then I ran out, and I now lots of people that ran out long before I did. I don't know what the answer is, I'm not asking for a magic button, I'm not asking for an isk machine. I'm just asking for some thought to be given to how high-end industrialists can have something to strive for again, whatever it is. I don't see titan production as being an industrial goal tbh, they are alliance war-machines that alliances themselves will build. I don't see demand for them booming any time soon. Meanwhile we have many trillions (hundreds of trillions? I'd love to know the number...) of ISK in independent industrialists' wallets sitting around doing nothing, dragging the economy into the gutter. We need something to soak up ISK as much as anything else.
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:50:00 - [57] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. Thanks for joining Chronotis. My fear is that ambulation will eventually present itself as eye-candy, looking great and giving a healthy boost to subs numbers, but not necessarily adding anything with real substance. Am I wrong in this? Can you shed any light? Also as mentioned above do you have any thoughts you can share on timelines? There must be something you guys can share with us on what you plan to do to extend and revitalise the economy in 2008. The whole thing is feeling pretty isk-saturated right now to be honest. Perhaps it's time for a Dev Blog on the subject?
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Leowen Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. Thanks for joining Chronotis. My fear is that ambulation will eventually present itself as eye-candy, looking great and giving a healthy boost to subs numbers, but not necessarily adding anything with real substance. Am I wrong in this? Can you shed any light? I have to agree with leowen here, there has been nothing mentioned about anything that ambulation will bring to the game, that is not basically eye candy. To date not a single dev post concerning ambulation has led me to believe that I need to particapate in it, honestly for this I am glad, because to me amubulation just seems as a time sink and nothing else. Just an expansion of the time wasting that most people do as they spin their ships around while docked. I of course understand from a marketing standpoint why CCP needs to add ambulation, I just seriously hope that we arent forced to deal with it. Since in its current state of devolpement it is nothing more than fluff and window dressing. --
Erah	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:08:00 - [59] what about tech 3 stuff? would be nice to see it coming as tech 2 is pretty common now maybe that's what planets will be for (pure speculation) tech 1: asteroid mining tech 2: moon mining tech 3: "planet mining"? that would open a whole new industry, and some new way to spend the isk
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:22:00 - [60] Originally by: Treelox I of course understand from a marketing standpoint why CCP needs to add ambulation, I just seriously hope that we arent forced to deal with it. Since in its current state of devolpement it is nothing more than fluff and window dressing. My only interest in ambulation is shops and storefronts. Finally being able to do sales to select clientFle with the benefit of some automation. Corporate and Alliance contracts are just way too limited. Woohoo if it pans out.

Jenny Spitfire Caldari SIVAKASI	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:32:00 - [61] Originally by: CCP Chronotis hrrmmm evil thought - income taxes! the IRS in New Eden! I'm not that evil though.....yet Please no more taexs!!! --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment -KB-
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:36:00 - [62] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Treelox I of course understand from a marketing standpoint why CCP needs to add ambulation, I just seriously hope that we arent forced to deal with it. Since in its current state of devolpement it is nothing more than fluff and window dressing. My only interest in ambulation is shops and storefronts. Finally being able to do sales to select clientFle with the benefit of some automation. Corporate and Alliance contracts are just way too limited. Yes it will be intresting to see if/how that is implemented, but at the same time how is going to be balanced out against the potential of isk laundring. At least I assume thats the main reason why you cant select who you buy from on the open market. Not adverse to the concept, just looking at it from a isk seller/isk buyer abuse potential. --
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:37:00 - [63] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: CCP Chronotis hrrmmm evil thought - income taxes! the IRS in New Eden! I'm not that evil though.....yet Please no more taexs!!! ACK who let jenny MK3 in here? --
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:40:00 - [64] stations that can be rented by bidding for the deed seem like a good idea Trashed sig, Shark was here
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:16:00 - [65] Originally by: Treelox Yes it will be intresting to see if/how that is implemented, but at the same time how is going to be balanced out against the potential of isk laundring. At least I assume thats the main reason why you cant select who you buy from on the open market. Not adverse to the concept, just looking at it from a isk seller/isk buyer abuse potential. In the first days of Eve market transactions were not anonymous. This was before there was any possibility of isk laundering. Exactly: When you went to purchase a product it asked you "Pay X isk to Y Pilot, Y/N?" before transaction completion. If you didn't like the person you wouldn't buy or pay thus causing price wars based on popularity. Thus the market was changed. I've long railed against the current "anonymous" model. If we know anything we all know that isk is power. The anonymous system dilutes the power of each individual. I also feel that the Eve is large enough now to allow for market power blocs to develop without causing too much damage to the over all game. As I see it the most ideal, and possibly easy to implement solution, would be a personal filter. Set via standings. I.e. I would set mine to +5 and thus I would see market orders from only those people, corps, or alliances that I have +5 standing with. Talk about making the standings system really work for the entirety of Eve. (Default would be +/- 0.0 of course.) In fact it would, in one fell swoop, change the face of the game as people would then be able to stop providing isk to their enemies or people they dislike. The further step of having my orders only display to people I have set to positive would be far too drastic imho. Newbies would be isolated to a market controlled only by those who don't care who they sell to at all. Just this small addition imho would put purchasing power back into the hands of the purchaser. Always a good thing imho.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:18:00 - [66] intresting shar, ill have to digest that a bit, ill get back to you later on it. --
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:25:00 - [67] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Treelox Yes it will be intresting to see if/how that is implemented, but at the same time how is going to be balanced out against the potential of isk laundring. At least I assume thats the main reason why you cant select who you buy from on the open market. Not adverse to the concept, just looking at it from a isk seller/isk buyer abuse potential. In the first days of Eve market transactions were not anonymous. This was before there was any possibility of isk laundering. Exactly: When you went to purchase a product it asked you "Pay X isk to Y Pilot, Y/N?" before transaction completion. If you didn't like the person you wouldn't buy or pay thus causing price wars based on popularity. Thus the market was changed. I've long railed against the current "anonymous" model. If we know anything we all know that isk is power. The anonymous system dilutes the power of each individual. I also feel that the Eve is large enough now to allow for market power blocs to develop without causing too much damage to the over all game. As I see it the most ideal, and possibly easy to implement solution, would be a personal filter. Set via standings. I.e. I would set mine to +5 and thus I would see market orders from only those people, corps, or alliances that I have +5 standing with. Talk about making the standings system really work for the entirety of Eve. (Default would be +/- 0.0 of course.) In fact it would, in one fell swoop, change the face of the game as people would then be able to stop providing isk to their enemies or people they dislike. The further step of having my orders only display to people I have set to positive would be far too drastic imho. Newbies would be isolated to a market controlled only by those who don't care who they sell to at all. Just this small addition imho would put purchasing power back into the hands of the purchaser. Always a good thing imho. Nice idea. It would create some interesting problems 1. If a group of people/corps/alliances tried to set up some sort of market manipulation, there is always someone willing to feed the market with goods. The cost of items would fluctuate at first then stabilize back to normal. 2. You could certainly annoy scammers. You could set up a thread in MD asking everyone to set a rating of a known scammer (e.g. Reithe) to -10, so he can't buy stuff easily. Or what if we all said Ebank directors suck, lets all set them to -10, some serious market wars could be started. 3. Doubt CCP would do this, because new players might be priced out of the game
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2008.01.29 21:03:00 - [68] Originally by: CCP Chronotis There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. EVE Online renamed to Third Life? Confirm/Deny? _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.29 23:29:00 - [69] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Originally by: CCP Chronotis There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. EVE Online renamed to Third Life? Confirm/Deny? Confirmed. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:38:00 - [70] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 30/01/2008 00:45:21 Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. I too am concerned by the concept of risk-free ISK making. I'm certainly not calling for yet another risk-less faucet without a longterm sink. What I and most of the people in this thread want is simply to have goals again. That means some type of high-end industrial content. I'm fine with it having significant risk associated with it. I would love to see it tie in with territorial conquest but I don't see how that can be done without it becoming the domain of the big alliances to the exclusion of us industrialists. I'm not really sure what to suggest other than low sec planet settling/mining to tie in with T3 or the equivalent. Whatever it is thought, it must include a certain measure of risk and I'm not hypocrite when I say that. At the moment the vast majority of my ISK comes from high risk loans and low sec reactors. Originally by: CCP Chronotis There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. Planets sound interesting, I mentioned them in a much earlier post in this thread and a few other places. I would love to hear more about them as I believe this is the first post by a dev to state that they're being worked on. As far as ambulation goes, I see it as eye-candy intended for those who don't seriously play the game and those stuck spinning their ships in dock. At the worst it will be a Second Life rip-off that adds nothing meaningful for the current playerbase and even at its best it will just put a face on sellers which is cool and adds a whole new dynamic to the economy but I don't see it providing goals for the billion a day people. By the way, thanks for the response, Chronotis. It's damn good to know we've got a dev that's been thinking about us. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants

Chiralos Merchant Princes	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:43:00 - [71] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. Thank god, there's someone at the helm ! Not meaning to be (too) rude, but listening to the audio dev blog before last, it seemed that EVE's ongoing game design consisted of tweaking some module stats. I think, as Shar said, whatever we get should tie industry, territory and combat together. ... make sovereignty depend on setting up a planetary colony with a "shuttle port array" starbase structure. Colonies have NPC trade good supply and demand - some common, some specific to certain colonies; some fixed, some randomly fluctuating. Sovereignty is maintained by keeping demanded commodity prices down near supply prices, in return for sentry guns, cyno jammers etc. Amarr Victor.
Prospor	Posted - 2008.01.30 06:13:00 - [72] Edited by: Prospor on 30/01/2008 06:23:29 Originally by: cosmoray Nice idea. It would create some interesting problems 1. If a group of people/corps/alliances tried to set up some sort of market manipulation, there is always someone willing to feed the market with goods. The cost of items would fluctuate at first then stabilize back to normal. 2. You could certainly annoy scammers. You could set up a thread in MD asking everyone to set a rating of a known scammer (e.g. Reithe) to -10, so he can't buy stuff easily. Or what if we all said Ebank directors suck, lets all set them to -10, some serious market wars could be started. 3. Doubt CCP would do this, because new players might be priced out of the game Looking at number 3 here... As a budding manufacturer/trader, I wonder how being able to set standings for your market orders would affect newer players, both in null/low sec and hi sec. I already know I'm not allowed in 0.0 by most corps (I started this game trying to learn my way around 0.0, and was repeatedly hunted down with a 3 or 4-week old character on nbsi policies if I tried, oh, and podded). It would likely thin out the possibilities of (npc corp) players being able to get obtain mid or high-end, named and tech 2, modules. There'd be price-gouging (or is it just supply-and-demand?) of new players. If somebody sets their buy selection to those only with standings, I lose part of my customer base. Now, I will, irl, choose where I buy based upon customer service levels. This outlook of mine can be manipulated by having friends start a job at a place I've never been before (an interaction that occurs either with location of goods in a sovereignty, or eve-mail and contracts in Eve); or developing friendships with people I regularly see at the store (an interaction that I doubt happens in Eve, but the guy knowing my name at the grocery store when I stop by is a big plus). In Eve, I don't have the option of delivering any type of real service aside from pricing and location. Well, the more I think about it, the more my argument will sound like the cries of mom and pop stores when a national chain moves in. I think the standings issue would be something mimicked by players if/when ambulation comes along, depending on what options tradesmen are given over their storefronts; if a standings requirement is one of those options given, I can live with that. As of right now, I'm mindless and faceless to my buyers, and without any true ability to change my standings with somebody (on their end, no real interaction is provided in most MMOs I've played), I'm likely to lose more business than I might gain. But the idea does sound good initially, and I'm sure some who price far lower than competitors would like to prevent said competitors from buying them out and repricing the stock. Edit: and this is in support of point 3, not refuting it... in case there's some strange kind of confusion with my post.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.01.30 06:55:00 - [73] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 30/01/2008 06:57:00 The standings thing is only really for those selling out in 0.0/low sec where the alliances want to haul whatever their members need but don't want their enemies to be able to buy it. Which, if you ask me, is a perfectly reasonable position and something that should have been implemented years ago. No serious seller would bother setting "positive only" in empire because A) they wouldn't stop their enemies from getting the stuff, there's a million other sellers for every market-seeded item in Jita B) it would hurt their bottom-line Thanks to invention any idiot, even a goon, can make T2 items so even if 1 corp bought every T2 BPO in EVE there would still be random guys just out to make a buck that would sell to the general public including the poor little noobs. Thus it would have essentially no affect on noobs unless the noobs are flying in hostile 0.0/low sec at which point they're "invading" hostiles and it's quite reasonable not to sell to them. I would love to see this feature implemented but it doesn't address the point of this thread, namely giving high end goals to industrialists. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.01.30 07:25:00 - [74] Originally by: Kwint Sommer No serious seller would bother setting "positive only" in empire because Which is why I suggested it only effect "buyer". In the area of "empowerment" a solution that is egocentric is best. I.e. Buyer gets to choose what he sees, Seller would be imposing on who sees him. This thread has been as answered as it is going to be. At least for the near and not so near future. Far better to discuss many of the finer points raised here so that something mildly productive will result.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2008.01.30 07:32:00 - [75] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Kwint Sommer No serious seller would bother setting "positive only" in empire because Which is why I suggested it only effect "buyer". In the area of "empowerment" a solution that is egocentric is best. I.e. Buyer gets to choose what he sees, Seller would be imposing on who sees him. This thread has been as answered as it is going to be. At least for the near and not so near future. Far better to discuss many of the finer points raised here so that something mildly productive will result. So why not allow sellers to prevent people with non-positive sec status from buying their stuff in 0.0/low sec? Right now if you live in a 0.0/low sec with NPC stations and want to sell stuff to your corp your options are to either price gouge so you at least make a decent profit off of your enemies and donate this ISK back to the corp (which still screws individual members of the corp) or put everything on contract to the corp which is a royal pain both for you to do and your corpmates to sort through, plus you would have to define an exact number of units in the sale so 1 mod/ship at a time and fixed units of minerals with a cap of 500 contracts which is an all around crappy solution compared to simply letting people choose the status of those buying their products. 5% Mining & Manufacturing Implants
Prospor	Posted - 2008.01.30 10:44:00 - [76] Originally by: Kwint Sommer No serious seller would bother setting "positive only" in empire because I do suppose that makes sense. I'd still hate to see my current repeat customers, whether they realize who they are or not, head elsewhere (like the 13-14 jumps to an empire trade hub) because vendors in the area stop supplying those outside of their alliances.
Siri Blue Gallente Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.30 13:04:00 - [77] I still would love to build my Super Pleasure Dome Holiday Wellness Resort in Gallente Space with the largest Exotic Dancer's compartment in the known universe...and yes, that definitely means an 18+ section! I have the 10.00 Gallente Faction standing... Getting a few hundred thousand Exotic Dancers and other staff is a challange I'm willing to take ;) And building a whole huge station in empire space was always a dream of mine... With the proper insane costs to build and run it... I'm sure that would be one high-end industrial goal ;) And with an 18+ section it should guarantee it generates enough ISK from players as well ;p Re-Introduce Non-ISK-Mission rewards, please.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.01.30 13:22:00 - [78] Originally by: CCP Chronotis hrrmmm evil thought - income taxes! the IRS in New Eden! I'm not that evil though.....yet I sure hope you mean PROPERTY and OWNERSHIP taxes, or else I revoke the right to ever call yourself evil, or even mildly disturbed, for that matter. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
adriaans Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs Hephaestus Rising	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:20:00 - [79] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. with more isk sinks...how will most people be able to afford to pvp without having to grind for a week to afford 1 loss...? or did i misunderstand? -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! (Or make Amarr the only race able to deal EM damage from turrets).
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:16:00 - [80] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: CCP Chronotis The problem comes down to that if you are risk averse, the ability to make isk is very easy such as the case of the high sec mission runner, trader or miner and no amount of isk sinks will realistically stem your profit margins when its so easy for example to make 100's of % in markup selling faction ammo and cashing in on people's laziness. There are plans afoot which should introduce not just isk sinks for the sake of being isk sinks but being something worth putting isk into such as what ambulation will bring and also what planets will bring. I am sure both of these will be fun and interesting enough for you all to plough your isk into when they come. I believe you may be referring to "stores and/or shops" that will be accessable through the ambulation mechanic and of course the subsequent lisence/fees/taxes that come with it. I am looking forward to this. I absolutely, 100%, think this is a horrible terrible horrendous bad idea. Shops/Storefronts do nothing but add a MASSIVE time sink. I can tell you that in every game I've played in the past with storefronts they have SUCKED. I've never once enjoyed having to visit store after store after store hoping to find something. Every single game eventually adds a search function to these stores so you don't have to manually go to each. Then you're just left with the time consuming act of finding the store you want, going to it, buying an item, going back to where you were, etc. This is exactly what contracts are now. Expand/Improve contracts, do not add yet another system in before working on improving existing ones. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained

Marie deMedici	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:38:00 - [81] I have suggested this before .. might bring some joy into capitalist/industrialist hearts: -improve shares and contracts: 1.make shares contractable items 2.make a contract type that acts on the holder of the physical contract 3.make contracts contractable items. 4.enable us to use everything as collateral , including items 5.enable us to add "interest" to the contract as isk per day atleast This would open a lot of new options for traders and capitalists. When it comes to new toys to use as isk-sinks for too rich people they need to be something which doesnt generate that much money percentagewise, cost a hell of a lot, are difficult to build (so they bring more stuff to do for everybody) and bring name and prestige. Like titan but for fluffy carebears. Casinoship? Floating bar? Casino module for pos? other fun modules for poses? "statues" to erect which are permanent and bear texts "This statue was erected by TooEffingRich to make sure everybody knows he is now 100 billion poorer" Maybe let too rich people join in on the roleplaying aspect of the world to fund new projects to invent ships or technologies or open gates and if they succeed bear their name , or if they fail let the wreck bear their name. For example a blackhole named after TooEffingRich after a project funded by him tried to create a new wormhole jump drive. But if CCP had too much resources available my favorites would be planetary warfare with battlemechs , orbital drops of mechs and pilotable spacecraft. Planetary warfare would be a nice way for industrialists to fund mercenaries to capture ore and factory resources on the empire planets.
Marie deMedici	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:54:00 - [82] More silly ideas. In real life when people have too much money they go into politics. Atleast in the united states they seem to.. So how about having player politics. Babes, cars, elections. campaigns. money down the drain, politics. Like the guy who can buy most votes gets to be the president/whatever for a month or until he is podded.
Ghreymar LaNayeur	Posted - 2008.01.30 20:28:00 - [83] what i thought would be cool is an industrial-titan, an ultimate endgame carebear ship. My idea was a giant pilotable station. it would have rig slots that could fit station services, and the pilot would be able to set the rates/taxes, which he would need to collect to pay for the fuel costs. maybe it could fit highslots moon/planet mining arrays it would only be able to jump something small, like 1 or 2 ly, every 24 hours. for an endgame industrialist this would be an awsome toy though, they would be able to run their own station with its own services etc, run buy/sell orders tax-free to themselves while profiting off the taxes of their competators. Alliances would be able to jump one of these to the forefront of conflicts, without the risk of losing an outpost costing all their pilots their possessions. it would also help solve the problem of 0.0 logistics if it could jump into a low-sec system, have a fleet of freighters fill it to the brim with pos fuel, ammunition, ships, minerals etc, then jump it all back out to 0.0 slowly. with ambulation maybe one could add a casino, strip club, etc to it to attract 'tourist' pod pilots out to see it (in low sec or otherwise). there was a thread about the idea here
vammathar Gallente Vamms Trading Corp	Posted - 2008.01.30 22:21:00 - [84] Edited by: vammathar on 30/01/2008 22:23:07 Owning a station in highsec would truly be fantastic. My 2 cents on this would be the ability to build consumables that currently are built and sold by NPC (Hydrogen batteries, Enriched Uranium, Building blocks, etc. etc.) How about allowing players to open up insurances companies, imagine the ability to insure not only ships but mods as well (think faction). We would be able to set premiums and collect on a monthly basis just like in real life. Im sure the detalis could be worked out. Now that would require a sizable wallet to implement. I would not mind forming such company togheter with other multibillionaires. Yes, CCP give us more freedom of choice!! vammathar **Refining your loot since 2004**
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2008.01.31 00:19:00 - [85] I laughed when I saw the income tax comment. CCP has a perfectly acceptable endgame for trades: updating spreadsheets / programs whenever they change formulas Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words.
Ghreymar LaNayeur	Posted - 2008.01.31 10:40:00 - [86] Originally by: vammathar Edited by: vammathar on 30/01/2008 22:23:07 Owning a station in highsec would truly be fantastic. My 2 cents on this would be the ability to build consumables that currently are built and sold by NPC (Hydrogen batteries, Enriched Uranium, Building blocks, etc. etc.) How about allowing players to open up insurances companies, imagine the ability to insure not only ships but mods as well (think faction). We would be able to set premiums and collect on a monthly basis just like in real life. Im sure the detalis could be worked out. Now that would require a sizable wallet to implement. I would not mind forming such company togheter with other multibillionaires. Yes, CCP give us more freedom of choice!! vammathar player run insurance would never work, for two reasons: adverse selection, and moral hazard first, you'd run into the adverse selection problem because, since you don't have adequate data on the people you're insuring, you'd never be able to tell between the people who want to insure their officer fit CNR against disconnecting in room v of lvl4 mission X vs the guy who suicides his navy megas against titans out in 0.0. And since your premiums will need to cover the costs of those 0.0 guys who lose their ships all the time, you'll be charging so much that the missioner carebears will be turned off your product. its not like you can demand killmails and expect them to not be doctored. you also run into a moral hazard problem where those CNR pilots, now fully insured, are alot more inclined to take THEIR officer fit ships and suicide them against titans out in 0.0, since it doesnt cost them anything (or at least substantially less) to lose them theres a reason that insurance is considered and isk faucet in eve [;)]
David H'Levi Invicta.	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:24:00 - [87] I like the standings idea. In fact, I like it so much that I think it should be for both buyers and sellers. Nothing screams economic power like the ability to organize a trade consortium and embargo corporations you don't like. Given enough money and market share, you could inflict some serious ISK damages. More economic total war in EVE!
Prokonsul Piotrus Minmatar Astral Light of Nature	Posted - 2008.02.01 00:06:00 - [88] Feel encouraged to add the good ideas from this thread to the relevant Ideas and Features thread :) -- One day, we will return to the planets... please, CCP? :) EVE-Wiki - share your knowledge in one place.
Fenderson Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.02.01 11:57:00 - [89] Originally by: Shadarle I absolutely, 100%, think this is a horrible terrible horrendous bad idea. Shops/Storefronts do nothing but add a MASSIVE time sink. I can tell you that in every game I've played in the past with storefronts they have SUCKED. I've never once enjoyed having to visit store after store after store hoping to find something. Every single game eventually adds a search function to these stores so you don't have to manually go to each. Then you're just left with the time consuming act of finding the store you want, going to it, buying an item, going back to where you were, etc. This is exactly what contracts are now. Expand/Improve contracts, do not add yet another system in before working on improving existing ones. devs have stated repeatedly that all the ambulation time-sinkery is going to be 100% optional and you will be able to access all the functionality without leaving your docking bay. DO YOU PLAY POKER???? Join ingame channels "DOA Poker" and "Eve Online Hold'em"


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