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a51 duke1406 Order Of The Sentinel	Posted - 2008.01.29 07:43:00 - [1] So ECM is being used a lot now in pvp. This in my opinion is due to two factors, the sendor damp nerf and the ecm boost. I think in just about every enagement I have had in the last month there has been at least one dedicated ecm ship. It has personally led to alot of near kills for me ie guy gets to structure, his corpie warps in and perma jams me. I generally fly a hyperion, with an eccm in it. This gives me a sensor strenght of about 44. But yet I still find my self jammed on average 50 out of 60 seconds. I don't really think that we need another discussion on probability of jamming etc. And there has already been a tread on eccm. My personal thoughts on ecm, It is very very effective. It will take one ship out of a fight easily, and I think it should be able to, as long as it is on a dedicated ew ship, its what they are meant to do after all. My problem is when a dedicated ecm ship jams 2-3 ships for a huge amount of time in any engagement. I think this does not do anything for balance in a the game. Every gang, including my own I might add, now has at least 1 ecm ship with it. Its become an absolute at this stage. What I would like to see in this tread is if people think this should be changed in anyway and possible ways to change it. My own possible solution to this, is add stacking penalties to ecm mods. This will I think allow a dedicated ecm ship to take one, or if there is smaller ships in an engagement out of the fight, but prevent it from effectivly shutting down 2-3 battleships. What do people think?
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2008.01.29 08:11:00 - [2] Personally I think ECM should only break locks and not also prevent relock. It is far too effective compared to the other forms of Ewar. And I agree that every squad really needs a jammership to stand a chance if the other team has one.
Luna Nilaya Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.29 09:58:00 - [3] Originally by: a51 duke1406 Every gang, including my own I might add, now has at least 1 ecm ship with it. Its become an absolute at this stage. Just like you need huginn/rapier to counter speed tanked ships. Some of you people seem to think that PVP should be just about tank and DPS. ECM ships can't really tank at all so if one ECM ship could jamm only one hostile ship, I wouldn't bother using my ECM ships anymore. - Installing premium content... Deleting file: \boot.ini
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.29 10:48:00 - [4] ECM and ECCM is fine. ECM only really works on ECM ships and fitting just one ECCM greatly improves your chances to withstand an ECM attack. People usually don't, so they think ECM is to strong. Well, if you don't fit a tank, guns will rip you apart in seconds, but that doesn't make them to powerful.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.29 10:49:00 - [5] ECM is a part of the paper scissors rock nature of pvp in eve. It means that people have to adapt to their opponents. ECM is used more because RSDs were nerfed. No. RSDs were overnerfed tipping the balance entirely towards ECM. The same thing happend to ECM when it was originally nerfed. The RSD nerf should have been tempered and not such a significant hit then minor tweaking could have followed later. Instead it got slapped hard and put specialist ships like the lach/arazu at a disadvantage because their is no scan res reduction if you're running the range script. Given that you need to be a lot closer to use an RSD at optimal this is a problem (I'm talking relative to rook/falcon/scorp). The RSD nerf took me from flying an arazu to training up my scorp skills. tl;dr version is they nerfed too hard. You need to look at other counters for ECM before you consider ECM changes. Especially as ECM is basically where it should be. Originally by: Darkrydar Oh and killboard loss arguments are so 2005.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.29 11:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Devian 666 Especially as ECM is basically where it should be. Because having one ship shut down 4-5 BS from 240km away is where it 'should be'? RSDs, even before the nerf, were never able to do this. ECCM isn't an effective defense against ECM. The only effective defense vs. ECM is your own ECM specifically designed to counterjam the enemy EW ships. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.29 12:08:00 - [7] Originally by: Devian 666 .. it got slapped hard and put specialist ships like the lach/arazu at a disadvantage .. And NOS nerf helped Amarr recons? Get real, whiny boy'a! It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.29 12:54:00 - [8] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Devian 666 .. it got slapped hard and put specialist ships like the lach/arazu at a disadvantage .. And NOS nerf helped Amarr recons? Get real, whiny boy'a! I don't think he said 'only damps were hit'... If we look at all recon ships now, what remains? Lets make a list, because you'll see, close to everything has been hit. * Amarr recons : Double hit in offensive and defensive ! - TD are nerfed, they are not half as good as it was promised in the scripting devblog, they are 30% of what they were before. - NOS nerf makes very hard to have an amarr recon capstable as before, you'll need tons of cap boosters, it makes it inneficient in any long fight... As the goal is to suppress the targeted ship's capacitor, you just can't NOS it. * Gallente : main weapon nerf - Damps were nerfed, they are just as TD, efficient at 30% of what they were before. Now, it only works on very long range fights, at distances where the damps will randomly work properly being in falloff. * Minmatar : same stats as before, but increased need in those ships - More and more nanogangs pushes people to fly those recons, the torpedo change may make the TP useful. I think now thay are at the level they should have been since the beginning. * Caldari : Boosting something that was already working? - ECM is all or nothing, if you win the random strength vs sensors, the target can do nothing... - When in the optimal, it works at 100% and if properly fitted, you can jam anything. - All the ship bonuses go on ECM, wich differs from the philosophy of other recons. To sum up, amarr recons are a joke, gallente recons are partially useful, minmatar recons are exactly what they should be and caldari recons are just the thing to have as the gallente recons are not as useful (range dependant, they are useless in close range fights). So, what needs to be done? 1/ TD and damps : they need to have one scripted stat as good as the stats were before the nerf, it means choosing between one of the two abilities you had before. 2/ Some special bonus for the amarr recons to nosf something on lower cam than theirs, they are flying energy syphons, they are never full, so, they should have their cap considered by nosf as being at 25% or something around this, allowing to nosf ennemy ships and fill themselves until the target gets lower. Then, they have to burn their own cap to destroy the remaining cap. 3/ Reworking ECM maybe. Several ideas come to me : - When jammed, it is all or nothing : wrong behaviour! - Make the target loose maximum targets until he drops at 0 (actually, it drops him at 0 or does nothing), this will make the ECM less random and less 'all or nothing', you reduce more or less the maximum locked targets of a ship depending on the proportion of sensor strenght you nullified. - Make it an instant lock breaker. This a disadvantage against smaller fast locking ships, but good enough against larger ships. Make the cycle shorter, then it's more efficient. In this configuration, it has a weakness against smaller ships, just as damps and TD have weakness against closer ships. - Take the locked targets off and then give them back at the end of the cycle : as soon as you can lock, you get back your targets and can fight! - Lower slightly the actual ECM strenght, it is too high, it is too easy to totally disable several ships with a single recon which is totally impossible with others to achieve so much combat disrupting. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Conrad Rock Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.01.29 13:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes ECM and ECCM is fine. ECM only really works on ECM ships and fitting just one ECCM greatly improves your chances to withstand an ECM attack. People usually don't, so they think ECM is to strong. Well, if you don't fit a tank, guns will rip you apart in seconds, but that doesn't make them to powerful. Basically this, I used one med slot eccm and one low slot eccm and solo killed a falcon in my hurricane.
Luna Nilaya Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.29 13:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Eleana Tomelac 3/ Reworking ECM maybe. Several ideas come to me... No. GTFO. - Installing premium content... Deleting file: \boot.ini
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.29 13:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Luna Nilaya Originally by: Eleana Tomelac 3/ Reworking ECM maybe. Several ideas come to me... No. GTFO. So pleasingly answered with so many constructive ideas, go fly your ECM ship and be happy, anyway, nothing happens before SOON(tm) so don't worry... -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.29 16:12:00 - [12] CCP decided the next flavour of the month should be caldari for once and not minnie or gallente. People have stopped flying arazus and lachesis and hop into a falcon now. How this makes anything better or more balanced remains a mystery but i have trust in the cough balancing cough team. (no i really don't have actually i already have my falcon alt) 1 month and people start to complain. I already see falcons and bbs used much more then before. And while before an arazu would shut down 1-2 of us a falcon does it to 3-4 people especially if they are in bs. Give it 6 months and the forum will be so full of whines that ccp can't stand it any longer. (they can only digest amarr tears which is why they can whine as long as they want) Then the ecm boats get another nerf bat and anyone who has played this game for a while knows it won't be sensitive. Torp raven will then get a nerf bat too most likely and caldari lose everything the just gained. And on a more technical note: eccm is bull**. I have seen falcons jam 3-4 bs (2 of them with eccm) and render them completely unable to fight. And don't tell me they got lucky. I can fly a falcon myself and either i am the most lucky person in the history of the ***** universe or falcons(rooks/bbs/scorps...) are just imba. And given that i didn't win the lottery 6 times in a row i tend to think its the latter. Now i will get flamed to hell etc. Don't get me wrong though. I am not exactly complaining. I will (ab-)use ecm platforms and especially the falcon as long and as much as possible. Just as i did with the lachesis/razu and the outcome will be exactly the same. That doesn't change the fact the latest changes to ewar were nuts though. But i have to adapt...
Westen Caldari Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:15:00 - [13] Edited by: Westen on 29/01/2008 17:16:16 I have been flying a falcon since they came out. I have no problem w/ a dedicated ship shutting down 3-4 ships, since I have trained nearly all the skills to 5 and invested a heavy ammount of time. That said, here is my suggestion to balance the ships a little further. Maybe they should add a skill that will allow a pilot to raise his or her sensor strength by 10-20%. It may not seem like much at first but when added with the ECCM, the increase would make it a more viable alternative to ECM. Practically every other stat on a ship can be increased through training, why not sensor strength? Gunnery skills reduce effect of TD Long Range Targeting and "name?" (the scan rez skill) Reduce effect of RSD Not much lessen Target Painters, but who cares No skills reduce ECM effectiveness directly
deltauk1 UNITED KINGDOM MAYHEM Capital Storm	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:25:00 - [14] Some interesting stuff on this thread. As far as i can see damps getting nerfed seems to be more of a problem than caldari EW ships. i fly a rook/ falcon and used to dread it when a hostile arazu was sighted. they were very good ships, especially for countering ecm boats. I agree totally that ccp messed up big time nerfing damps and have ruined a very effective ship/s. On the rook/falcon front i don't see any rpoblem tbh. To permajam 3 bs you need to be near maxed out which in turns means you've put a hell of a lot of skilltime in. Also they are by no means invincible, a properly fitted EW ship will have no tank and if it does have a tank it's ew threat is greatly reduced. the dps on them is hideous, they pretty much pop in seconds when hit by anything bigger than a cruiser and then you have cruise missles, hideous things for ew ships, they hurt lots, and then there are nano ships to deal with and of course other EW ships. As stated before they are part of the game and most people i fight say they are good force multipliers allowing smaller gangs to take on larger ones which is great fun. to sum up, yes it is terrible what has happened to gallente recons and all the people who have trained for them but please don't take it out on caldari recons and EW it's no easy ride flying one and i've lost some toexcellent tactics by the oppostion as well as geeting charged by nano ships. anyway that is my two-pence worth ont he matter
The ArchWarder Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.29 17:59:00 - [15] Edited by: The ArchWarder on 29/01/2008 18:03:14 Edited by: The ArchWarder on 29/01/2008 18:02:21 ECM mods need to have a Jamming time of 10 seconds and a cycle time of 20 seconds. Like Every other Ewar. ( the 10 second part ) 20 seconds of uselessness is just far too much for one mod. Eccm needs to make you immune to ECM period due to the the sacrifice of an all important mid slot for a mod that ONLY serves to keep you 'able to lock'. Low slot ECCM needs to be buffed to the strength a mid slot ECCM is currently. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:40:00 - [16] Originally by: deltauk1 Some interesting stuff on this thread. As far as i can see damps getting nerfed seems to be more of a problem than caldari EW ships. Well amarr recons got hit twice with the nerfbat too so yes thats a problem. I for example fly 3/4 races recons and most of the recon pilots i know kinda specialize and fly at least 2. The ones that only learn 1 recon are all falcon pilots but thats probably coincidental. However if i feel my current recon doesn't give a whole lot to my gang but the falcon does why would i not fly it? A lot of people think that way and that we like to call fotm. And guess what comes after the fotm? Originally by: deltauk1 On the rook/falcon front i don't see any rpoblem tbh. To permajam 3 bs you need to be near maxed out which in turns means you've put a hell of a lot of skilltime in. Well those 3 bs pilots may have maxed skills either. And maxing a bs is far more skill intensive than maxing a recon tbh. Of course to some extent this is needed for recons to work as "force multipliers". How good the multiplication works is a balance question though and very well not only depends on the ecm ships themselves but also on the state of the rest of pvp. The game shouldn't degenerate into a simple point blank dmg/tank game. But you can't make balancing arguments based on how many sp people have invested imo because in that case its captial > bs > .... > recons. And thats just stupid. Another thing to note is that the other recons can be quite happy if they shut only a single bs down half as effectively as a falcon would. They have supplemental abilities which the falcon lacks (they all are good tacklers, can sometimes kill or fend off cruiser sized ships, have another ewar bonus, etc.) though. The way i see it you can play nice tricks with all the other recons but when it comes to winning otherwise doomed fights or saving lifes and keeping losses down its always the falcon, the falcon and then some more falcon. The rapier/huginn has its own specific uses with the nano ships so its the only other recon thats really appealing atm. Originally by: deltauk1 As stated before they are part of the game and most people i fight say they are good force multipliers allowing smaller gangs to take on larger ones which is great fun. Agreed. How high the multipliers are for the different recons can and should be discussed though. And also how effective (or not) the counter measures are. I fly recons all the time and its fun but flying other ships should be fun too. In small gang combat cruise missiles are the only weapon system that has enough range to shoot them directly. (assuming people fit close range mostly) One raven though will be jammed easily and its already making sacrifices in dps by fitting cruise missiles. Should one bring 3 or 4 cruise missile ravens to counter a falcon? So in order to shoot a falcon most ships need to get near it first. Realistically only some cruiser sized ships can do this fast enough and then they have pretty much no chance of actually killing the falcon if the pilot has any awareness whatsoever. They will only force it to warp out and come back in an instant. Its much better to have a falcon of your own and jam the other falcon. In lowsec falcon has the further advantage that it is the only recon that can realistically use its ewar out of sentry range which pretty much means the small chance of countering it with recons other then the falcon itself further diminishes. The only time where anyone i know lost a falcon was when they actively sacrificed it in order to keep jamming as long as possible and not warp out or switch jams although there is a huginn/curse sitting on top of them. Falcons rarely die and i can't take anyone serious who flies one but claims otherwise.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Devian 666 .. it got slapped hard and put specialist ships like the lach/arazu at a disadvantage .. And NOS nerf helped Amarr recons? Get real, whiny boy'a! The discussion isn't about the most nerfed recons in the game it's about ecm and game balance. Quit whining. Originally by: Darkrydar Oh and killboard loss arguments are so 2005.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Devian 666 Especially as ECM is basically where it should be. Because having one ship shut down 4-5 BS from 240km away is where it 'should be'? RSDs, even before the nerf, were never able to do this. ECCM isn't an effective defense against ECM. The only effective defense vs. ECM is your own ECM specifically designed to counterjam the enemy EW ships. If you're finding ecm so difficult you could try playing another game. Originally by: Darkrydar Oh and killboard loss arguments are so 2005.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Devian 666 Especially as ECM is basically where it should be. Because having one ship shut down 4-5 BS from 240km away is where it 'should be'? Look at dat fuggin hyperbole. A Falcon with perfect skills, rigs, faction ECM (do they even drop?) and a full rack of Signal Disruption Amplifier IIs gets a total jamming strength of just over 15. A Battleship has a sensor strength of between 17 and 22, so if this "Mr Perfect" Falcon pilot has the exact racial modules for the battleships he's facing, he will jam a single battleship 60-85% of the time depending on the shiptype. So on paper, yes, a perfect Falcon pilot with his midslots stuffed entirely with ECM modules of the exact type required and his lows entirely stuffed with the SDAs can be jamming about 5 of his 7 targetted BSs at any given instant (which isn't at all the same thing as locking down 4-5 ships permanently). Quote: The only effective defense vs. ECM is your own ECM specifically designed to counterjam the enemy EW ships. Countering ECM by trying to jam the opposing ECM ship yourself is a fool's game because recon ships have such crazy sensor strength. However each time the ECM misses a cycle, the battleship is going to target and hammer his tinfoil armoured Recon severely. If the ECM pilot has the wrong racial ECMs fitted for the enemy shiptypes and can't get his jams off he's going to be worthless in a fight. If the enemy fleet rushes the Falcon with a handful of interceptors they force it to either take its ECM away from the enemy heavy hitters to jam the tacklers (which means the BSs can target the Falcon freely), or keep on the BSs while hoping desperately the tacklers dont have the DPS to drop him themselves, or that they're not providing a warpin for a shortrange gank boat which will melt the Falcon in seconds. If the enemy put a handful of targeting range dampeners on his ship from a celestis (or even better, lachesis/arazu) he wont be locking jack from 240km away, and will be forced to either get close in and put himself in far greater danger, or be nullified entirely and forced to warp out of the fight. And, unlike Recons, you can insure a BS. ----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Scatim Helicon Countering ECM by trying to jam the opposing ECM ship yourself is a fool's game because recon ships have such crazy sensor strength. A recon has about the sensor strength of a t1 bs. So how is this any crazy? Also if you manage to jam the falcon it can't make use of its own jams which obviously helps a big deal. Originally by: Scatim Helicon However each time the ECM misses a cycle, the battleship is going to target and hammer his tinfoil armoured Recon severely. Because the falcon pilot managed to position himself in front of said battleship? Then he really deserves to die tbh.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.29 20:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: Scatim Helicon Countering ECM by trying to jam the opposing ECM ship yourself is a fool's game because recon ships have such crazy sensor strength. A recon has about the sensor strength of a t1 bs. So how is this any crazy? Also if you manage to jam the falcon it can't make use of its own jams which obviously helps a big deal. Caldari Recons: Rook: 32 Sensor Strength Falcon: 28 Sensor Strength Caldari Battleships: Scorpion: 24 Sensor Strength Raven: 22 Sensor Strength Rokh: 24 Sensor Strength. The Caldari battleships, which have the highest Sensor Strengths of all races, are still significantly lower than that of the Falcon and especially the Rook. Originally by: Scatim Helicon However each time the ECM misses a cycle, the battleship is going to target and hammer his tinfoil armoured Recon severely. Because the falcon pilot managed to position himself in front of said battleship? Then he really deserves to die tbh. If a Recon's is jamming its target from within its ECM optimal, its within reach of pretty much any T2 sniper returning fire (certainly Caldari and Gallente, I'm not so familiar with Laser and artillery snipers) so I don't know how you propose to avoid this, exactly. ----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Scatim Helicon If the enemy put a handful of targeting range dampeners on his ship from a celestis (or even better, lachesis/arazu) he wont be locking jack from 240km away, and will be forced to either get close in and put himself in far greater danger, or be nullified entirely and forced to warp out of the fight. And what feat of magic give the lachesis/arazu something near a 240 km damper range?
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Venkul Mul And what feat of magic give the lachesis/arazu something near a 240 km damper range? 240km from the BSs the Falcon is trying to jam, not 240km from the damper ship. Do I need to draw a diagram or something here? ----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true.
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.29 23:46:00 - [24] Not going to debate it as the good points have already been mentioned here and have been acknowledged by some, and totally ignored by others. ECM is fine. Boost the pilgrim and gal recons. Simple.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:16:00 - [25] Originally by: Scatim Helicon Originally by: Venkul Mul And what feat of magic give the lachesis/arazu something near a 240 km damper range? 240km from the BSs the Falcon is trying to jam, not 240km from the damper ship. Do I need to draw a diagram or something here? So you want the target group to split, the arazu to fly 200 km and it is all right and kosher. Oh, and naturally the falcon will stay immobile, it is such a good guy. Or maybe the falcon will stay at 149 km so the arazu can't jump to him (even if some cov ops has pinpointed him) and move around to keep the distance? Damps will still do nothing, and the ECM ship will work fine.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:53:00 - [26] Originally by: Venkul Mul So you want the target group to split, the arazu to fly 200 km and it is all right and kosher. Oh, and naturally the falcon will stay immobile, it is such a good guy. Or maybe the falcon will stay at 149 km so the arazu can't jump to him (even if some cov ops has pinpointed him) and move around to keep the distance? Damps will still do nothing, and the ECM ship will work fine. A ceptor (even if jammed) closing at 6km/s+ and then orbiting at 10km provides a handy warp in point, and its hard to keep the arazu at 149km when he's able to warp out to another celestial object and back in. You're relying on the Falcon pilot to maintain 240km distance from the target battleships whilst simultaneously keeping 100km away from the dampening ships, and constantly swapping his jammers between different battleships and between the battleships and tacklers as jams succeed or fail. Forcing information overload on the Falcon pilot and pushing him into errors of judgement as he juggles various shifting threat priorities is a perfectly viable way of taking down expensive threats such as this. Or I guess you could just post in a whine thread instead. ----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true.
DuPuy Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.01.30 01:05:00 - [27] Edited by: DuPuy on 30/01/2008 01:11:45 I'm seeing a lot of ECM boats on killmails now. Three months ago, there were hardly any. I'm seeing a lot of ECM boats on lossmails now. Three months ago, there were hardly any. Why? Because, three months ago, hardly anyone flew them. Now they are helping kills. Now they are helping frustrate kills. Now they are getting popped. Why? They are being used. Yes: the Damp nerf was over-the top. Yes: the Nos nerf was over-the top. Yes: the Tracking Disruptors are under-used (I don't know why given 75pc of all pvp ships use guns) Yes: Target Designators have only limited application. I fly boats that use all of the above. The nerfs and boosts affect me equally. And I was someone who flew Falcons and Rooks when they weren't popular. ECCM exists for a reason: to tank ECM. Just as armor and shields exist for a reason: to tank guns and missiles. Use them. You won't hear ECM pilots whining about over-powered guns and missiles when their zero-tank ships get popped... So what is causing this new rant against ECM? In local, I am seeing a lot of fucussed-"i win" warp scrambling type pilots whining about ECM being used to prevent them getting their easy low-sec kills... Well, that is because low-sec pilots have "adapted": they realise the only counter to this infinite scram device are ECM mods and ECM drones... Fit some ECCM and you'll probably still get your "i-win" kills.... Adapt. Or die.
Xavia Cameron Caldari Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.30 01:24:00 - [28] I'd have to say, ECM is perfectly fine in its current (seemingly overpowered) state. These ships are flying coffins if your FC doesn't know EXACTLY what he's doing. They NEED to be able to jamm 3-4 ships, or what is the point of flying one in a serious battle? TD, RSD, TP are all examples of skirmish EWar, ECMs however are fleet EWar. An ECM ship will get owned in a 10 v 10 because if one ship misses a cycle you die, no tank, no speed. ECMs need to be more powerful then other races Ewar because ECM boats sacrifice all of their tank for it. Also, they need range being the Ewar of the long-range race. TBH I'd prefer the Raven nerfed then ECM. Then the Caldari have an obvious place in combat... SUPPORT! -- Fix Clone Vat Bays Fix Local
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.30 03:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Scatim Helicon The Caldari battleships, which have the highest Sensor Strengths of all races, are still significantly lower than that of the Falcon and especially the Rook. I said about. English is not my first language but i meant approximately. And falcon has +4 sensor strength against rokh which is only 20% more. If you think this makes trying to jam it crazy while jamming a bs with -20% sensor strength is ok then you probably try to skew the facts. I have jammed recons and i have been jammed while sitting in recons. In my curse i've even been permajammed for over 2 minutes by a lone falcon with multispecs. And my bs with eccm have higher sensor strength then your rook or falcon and guess what? They still get jammed. Just not as often. Originally by: Scatim Helicon If a Recon's is jamming its target from within its ECM optimal, its within reach of pretty much any T2 sniper My falcon has nearly 230km optimal on racials. And imo they just introduced new implants to further enhance that range. Did you ever fly an ecm boat? Originally by: Scatim Helicon returning fire (certainly Caldari and Gallente, I'm not so familiar with Laser and artillery snipers) so I don't know how you propose to avoid this, exactly. See there is fleet bs and there is small gang combat. I do the latter and people don't bring sniping bs there. So even if your point was true (which it isn't see above) it would be a moot point kinda.
LordMordred Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.30 05:19:00 - [30] Edited by: LordMordred on 30/01/2008 05:19:19 To be 100% honest ECM needs to return to what it was in the beginning of the game. Ships have a set sensor strenght. Jammers each jam for a set amount of points. If you put more point on a ship than it has sensor strengh, it is jammed. What was really unbalance about this was the ECM modules had no range at that time, this has been corrected. This would solve two major problems as I see it: 1.) The ease of use involed with ECM 2.) The Random Chance Factor Both of these reasons fall under the explation (for me anyways.) Pilot skill. Back before they changed ECM to a random chance (When 100 people in a system was an OMG moment almost) it was heavily based on your skill at using the modules. Example one: A noob with old ECM He throws all of his jammers on a BS and overwhelms his sensor strength, perma jamming him till he stops using the ECM for whatever reason. Example Two: Experienced player with ECM Does jamming Cycles. Multispec had a 5 second cycle time. Each time the cycle was up the ECM pilot would put all of his jammers on the another target. So on and so forth. This was called "Cycle Jamming." You would just break the locks of every one on your target list as often as possible. Most importantly, it was all based on fixed values and not Random chance. This method of target jaming also means it can't be done by any ship that doesn't have a lot of mids to put towards jamming. Back in the day, those ships where the BB and the Scorp. Some Ravens could use it to effect but where better off with a Duel MWD or Shield Tank setup. The only problem I see with this system in modern day EVE is the effects of LAG in the now Mega sized fleet battles that take place in EVE now fairly often. Module lag was always a killer for a Cycle Jamming ECM pilot. Counters to Cycle Jamming: If you threw one or two ECCM modules in your meds or lows you most often wouldn't be jammed. A lot of ECM ships back then carried enough to jam one normal sensor strength Scorp (the highest Sensor Strength ship in the game back then.) This could really throw an ECM pilot for a loop, and provided a route for all other ships a module-based way of effectively countering ECM, at the plenty of module space (which is the way it should be.) To sum it all up. No more random chance. It is based high on the pilotÆs skill to manage his modules in combat. -----
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.30 07:51:00 - [31] Originally by: Scatim Helicon Originally by: Venkul Mul So you want the target group to split, the arazu to fly 200 km and it is all right and kosher. Oh, and naturally the falcon will stay immobile, it is such a good guy. Or maybe the falcon will stay at 149 km so the arazu can't jump to him (even if some cov ops has pinpointed him) and move around to keep the distance? Damps will still do nothing, and the ECM ship will work fine. A ceptor (even if jammed) closing at 6km/s+ and then orbiting at 10km provides a handy warp in point, and its hard to keep the arazu at 149km when he's able to warp out to another celestial object and back in. You're relying on the Falcon pilot to maintain 240km distance from the target battleships whilst simultaneously keeping 100km away from the dampening ships, and constantly swapping his jammers between different battleships and between the battleships and tacklers as jams succeed or fail. Forcing information overload on the Falcon pilot and pushing him into errors of judgement as he juggles various shifting threat priorities is a perfectly viable way of taking down expensive threats such as this. Or I guess you could just post in a whine thread instead. So the poor Falcon pilot is penalized because he can influence too much targets? Yay, the suffering. Maybe you haven't noticed it (information overload again?) but I was pointing more to the absurd range advantage of ECM against damps. Your falcon can work easily at 230 Km, a damp ship has a range well under half of that even in falloff. So damps are not a "easy counter" as you try to pass them.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.30 08:27:00 - [32] Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: Scatim Helicon The Caldari battleships, which have the highest Sensor Strengths of all races, are still significantly lower than that of the Falcon and especially the Rook. I said about. English is not my first language but i meant approximately. And falcon has +4 sensor strength against rokh which is only 20% more. If you think this makes trying to jam it crazy while jamming a bs with -20% sensor strength is ok then you probably try to skew the facts. Yes, you compare the highest sensor strength Battleship in the game with the lowest sensor strength ECM Recon, and its me that's trying to skew the facts. At the other end of the scale, the Rook has nearly double the sensor strength of an Armageddon (32 compared to 17), but if I'd used that as my basis of comparison then you could accuse me of fiddling the numbers. Originally by: Scatim Helicon If a Recon's is jamming its target from within its ECM optimal, its within reach of pretty much any T2 sniper Quote: My falcon has nearly 230km optimal on racials. And imo they just introduced new implants to further enhance that range. Did you ever fly an ecm boat? http://killboard.goonfleet.com/player/Scatim%20Helicon Quote: Originally by: Scatim Helicon returning fire (certainly Caldari and Gallente, I'm not so familiar with Laser and artillery snipers) so I don't know how you propose to avoid this, exactly. See there is fleet bs and there is small gang combat. I do the latter and people don't bring sniping bs there. So even if your point was true (which it isn't see above) it would be a moot point kinda. If you're talking about small gang, closer range combat, then use your fast ships to get a warp in and drop those autocannon and blaster boats directly on top of the ECM hostile. ----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true.
Kael D'mende Homo Victor	Posted - 2008.01.30 08:28:00 - [33] Originally by: Westen Edited by: Westen on 29/01/2008 17:16:16 I have been flying a falcon since they came out. I have no problem w/ a dedicated ship shutting down 3-4 ships, since I have trained nearly all the skills to 5 and invested a heavy ammount of time. ........... lol, so because u have trained a lot for this ship it should be allowed to be imba ?, hell i have almost max skills for cs's, so boost them plz, i want to be able to pwn 3-4 bs in it.. and its even a size larger than your cruiser.. NO ship in eve should have the power to pwn or disable 3-4 ships regardless of training period. flame on.... Regards. /Kael
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.30 08:33:00 - [34] Originally by: Venkul Mul Maybe you haven't noticed it (information overload again?) but I was pointing more to the absurd range advantage of ECM against damps. Your falcon can work easily at 230 Km, a damp ship has a range well under half of that even in falloff. So damps are not a "easy counter" as you try to pass them. So what you're saying is that its wrong how the long range sniping race (Caldari) have a range advantage over the shorter range drones+blasters race (Gallente)? ----------- We command your forum now. As long as you post on CAOD, we make you post our way and nothing you can say will ever really convince yourselves that this isn't true.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:10:00 - [35] Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Devian 666 Especially as ECM is basically where it should be. Because having one ship shut down 4-5 BS from 240km away is where it 'should be'? RSDs, even before the nerf, were never able to do this. ECCM isn't an effective defense against ECM. The only effective defense vs. ECM is your own ECM specifically designed to counterjam the enemy EW ships. If you're finding ecm so difficult you could try playing another game. I don't find ECM difficult. I use it all the time. I never go anywhere these days without my max skilled Falcon pilot. Or two, or three. Every single fight becomes a jam fest. Jamming, counter jamming. We just sit around until one of us can get a lock, and hope that no one de-agresses and warps off while no one is scrammed. All EW fights suuuuuck. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
a51 duke1406 Order Of The Sentinel	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:37:00 - [36] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Devian 666 Especially as ECM is basically where it should be. Because having one ship shut down 4-5 BS from 240km away is where it 'should be'? RSDs, even before the nerf, were never able to do this. ECCM isn't an effective defense against ECM. The only effective defense vs. ECM is your own ECM specifically designed to counterjam the enemy EW ships. If you're finding ecm so difficult you could try playing another game. I don't find ECM difficult. I use it all the time. I never go anywhere these days without my max skilled Falcon pilot. Or two, or three. Every single fight becomes a jam fest. Jamming, counter jamming. We just sit around until one of us can get a lock, and hope that no one de-agresses and warps off while no one is scrammed. All EW fights suuuuuck. This is what I am trying to get across with this tread. It is proberly just my bad luck or something, but every single fight I have gotten into for the past month or so, there is a dedicated ecm ship or two in the fight. It is why I suggested something like a stacking penalty for ecm mods. As it stands at the moment, an ecm ship jumps in, locks 2-3-4 guys, turns on specific racial, or multi-spectral jammers. This when you are on the reciving end, is incredibly annoying. You basically sit there and wait to dock up, warp off, jump through the gate etc, because the vast majority of your gang has been made completly useless in terms of combat. As I said I have absolutly no problem with a dedicated ecm ship taking one or two ships out of a fight. It is an ew ship after all. But as it stands at the moment when you have 4 corp m8s online, but your ecm guy aint online. You simply decide to stay docked. Ecm in its current form is not doing anything positive for the game. In my opinion something needs to change. It is not that I have lost ships to this an ecm ship, it is not that I can not adapt in some way, I am using eccm all the time, I have dedicated ecm ships with me, but when one type of offensive weapon in this game, starts to become the overiding factor when deciding what to bring in your gang and fit on your ship. It means something in the game needs to be changed. This game is about rock paper scissors. Its something that has kept me hooked. But when rock stops paper and scissors from ever working something needs to be adjusted. Thank you for everyone's imput so far. Im looking forward to more debate ideas etc.
128th ABC123 Eve Liberation Force Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.30 11:45:00 - [37] ECM is fine as it is, leave it alone. It takes a fair ammount of skills to get it to work remotely reliable and on top of that getting primaried generally means your ****ed in bigger fights. Its a nice tool and it's one of the few interesting things the caldari have. I think CCP did a good job to balance it out.
Gordon Red SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:31:00 - [38] Edited by: Gordon Red on 30/01/2008 15:32:51 For god's sake use the modules that CCP deployed! There are ECCM Modules that are working GREAT!!! But no I don't want that, I want to keep my fitting, I don't want to adept => NERF THIS OR NERV THAT... You guys make me sick! (and I am AMARR!)
Kekzanid	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:40:00 - [39] Edited by: Kekzanid on 30/01/2008 15:41:20 The point is the reason you're primaried is because it's a wtf owned situation. 3-4 ships with one ship? No, let's rephrase that, 3-4 people sitting looking at their screens unable to play the game. The fact that BBs, scorps, etc. are primary targets is because they are so powerful. If they wern't so powerful and were an annoyance instead of an ownage, they'd last longer. Here's a suggestion: As someone uses ECM on you, your resist to their ECM increases rapidly, so cycle after cycle, the % chance rapidly drops. Also drop the cycles to 10 secs. That would have 4 affects: 1. It means in a fleet battle an ECM ship has to constantly cycle targets 2. The wtf ownage factor in small gang battles diminishes rapidly as the fight progresses 3. The effect on multiples v a solo pilot rapidly disappears and gives the guy a chance 4. It still gives people a valid way of escaping camps, etc. So they're still an effective tactic in all battles, but they can't essentially stop any one person from playing the game, which is my big problem with ECM. That and ECCM modules should make you invulnerable to ECM. If the ECM is simply a turn the enemy ship on/off, the defense should be turn it on/off too.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:26:00 - [40] Some say the subject must be kept on ECM, but I think we should look more to what counters exist to all EW and then see what makes the ECM wrong. 1/ Things countered by tactical manoeuvers that while not safe can allow you to do something : -Against damps : Getting closer, simple manoeuver, just unsafe as you will fly closer to the ennemy. If it's the resolution, be patient, your lock will come at some point, it's no more as before when people were needing 100s to lock a damn cruiser and shoot the dampener, drones if in range ad if they are in aggressive mode and no other ennemy attacks you (makes much). -Against TD : Getting closer again if it's the range, getting closer and wbifying the target if ti's the tracking, changing your flight course (stop your fast orbit and keep at range, eventually get shot), drones if in range. Switching to longer range ammo if available or higher tracking ammo (if using spike like). -Against webs : half the ships don't care about speed, for the others, switching to longer range ammo (if webbed from a far recon), shooting at the webifier (as your weapons or locking ability are not the thing affected), drones if in range. -Against scramblers : shoot the scrambling ship, as they usually have damps if recons, it's closing (as against damps) or if it's inties, web may help but is too short, drones may not be fast enough. 2/ Not much in tactics can help you to counter ECM, TP (but who cares) and nos/neut (or the recon itself will fail its cap if trying to tank). There, you need fitting to defend. -Against ECM : fit many ECCM, there is no other counter than leaving the fight, which is a fleeing tactic, not a fighting one! You can't fight back, drones are usually our of range. -Against nos/neut : shoot back on the recon, heavy cap boosting. But you can shoot back. -Against damps : as they have been reduced to like 65% efficiency in only one stats, the sensor boosters comes back at a counter, having a margin in the possible locking range works. -Against tracking disruptors : first it only affects turrets, so not all ships, and turret ships can try to use more tracking computers, but really, a tracking computer is not a big bonus as the sensor booster. Still, you may switch ammo as TD are not so long range, with best range ammo, you might hit, it's worth trying. So, what I am trying to tell is : -If a recon can disable 5 ships (as were dampeners in medium range before, reducing lock range under the fight range with a -60% or more dampening, but useless at short range - and there are not only BS in the game) in some conditions it is fine, but it should have the range where it works and the range where it does not work, ECM as stated in other posts can work at 100% over 200km and will work the same at 10km. -Counters : fitting should not be the only option, but it's the only one against ECM, there is no manoeuver to escape the ECM, there are some for the other EW. I hope some people understand my point as the 'ECM are much better (as in flexible, efficient) than any other EW in the game and something needs to be done'. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
RInama Sent Shadow Of The Light Scorched Earth Directive	Posted - 2008.01.30 16:49:00 - [41] you say their are no tactics agenst ECM but in fact their are sevral. Use FOF use drones use smart bombs, you say fiting should not be the only option but you say to counter webs swich ammo well as webs on a recon can have ranges 60km + (theoretically out to 240km)but manny ships can't shoot that far with any ammo. moral of the story boost amar gal recons. 249.99 KM Locking?
Kekzanid	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:17:00 - [42] FOF is missile only, the drones don't have the range to reach although i suppose they could attack closer targets, the SBs have a v short range and won't have the DPS of anything on a normal fit ship. Say something that make's sense. How does boosting a couple other recons suddenly take away the advantage that ECM ships give to fleets that outnumber your own? ECM ships encourage blobbage.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:25:00 - [43] Originally by: RInama Sent you say their are no tactics agenst ECM but in fact their are sevral. Use FOF use drones use smart bombs, you say fiting should not be the only option but you say to counter webs swich ammo well as webs on a recon can have ranges 60km + (theoretically out to 240km)but manny ships can't shoot that far with any ammo. moral of the story boost amar gal recons. Ammo can be changed in space, this is a very immportant difference! If you are too short range, too bad, but you had the chance to try. With ECM, you will not have the chance to try it. And for drones, it needs this : -Be in drone range (jammers who stay under 60km happens often?) -Have drones in aggressive mode -Have no one else engage you before the ECM ship (or drones just engage him). In fact it's again a total wait game, you don't control your drones in this manoeuver. I just agree that smartbombs, if you ever get in range and they don't flee (you still can't scramble it while you could on other EW ships), works. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.30 17:35:00 - [44] There are many ways to deal with ECM boats. One of these, although not a particuarly good or clever method, is counterjamming. One thing that certainly isn't a good method is for your predictable, one-dimensional blob of short-range blaster/AC-boats, previously used to ganking whatever it came across, to just sit 200 km away then whine that they can't shoot at that range. Nanodroneboats. NanoFOFboats. Snipers. Sentry drones. ECCM. Nanoboats acting as a warp-in point. RSD. Gang variety, intelligent FCing and individual initiative. Having said all that, I felt that 20%/level on the Falcon was a bit much. 15% would have been more reasonable. Although it is worth noting that the ECM abilities of the Falcon are only slightly greater (extra lowslot) than those of the prepatch Rook, when ECM was hardly regarded as overpowered. (Yes I appreciate the value of the covops cloak).
deltauk1 UNITED KINGDOM MAYHEM Capital Storm	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:23:00 - [45] I'm seeing a lot of ECM boats on killmails now. Three months ago, there were hardly any. I'm seeing a lot of ECM boats on lossmails now. Three months ago, there were hardly any. Why? Because, three months ago, hardly anyone flew them. Now they are helping kills. Now they are helping frustrate kills. Now they are getting popped. That is a spot on assessment in my eyes, well said Did you ever fly an ecm boat? I beggining to wander if you did
deltauk1 UNITED KINGDOM MAYHEM Capital Storm	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:26:00 - [46] above quotes in reference to dupuy and wu jinn respectively
M3GATRON Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.01.30 18:53:00 - [47] is this really about ecm being overpowered or about some corps having specialized chars who are ecm powerhouses giving them an edge while others do not if you want to compete in the battlefield you must work as a team that means you need dedicated ecm pilots BTW i have been using ecm since forever and it has always ruled ecm boats got a little boost in trinity but it has always worked people gotta realize trinity wasn't a like flipping a light switch and oooo ecm is uber now . ecm changes in trinity amounted to a drop in the bucket the true power of ecm has always been there you just had to train like a mofo to get it c'mon signal dispersion 5 ... cmon!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.30 20:11:00 - [48] Quote: Every gang, including my own I might add, now has at least 1 ecm ship with it. Its become an absolute at this stage. Excellent. Sure beats a system where all that people care about is the dps and tank a gang has.
Rezerwowy Pies	Posted - 2008.01.30 21:03:00 - [49] Edited by: Rezerwowy Pies on 30/01/2008 21:03:10 damps have stacking penalty, ecm modules should also have it. Arazu also doesnt have tank, same as ecm recons.
DuPuy Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.01.31 00:56:00 - [50] Yes deltauk... clearly people are surprised by this "new" ECM element to the game. Others are disappointed how the other electronic warfare techniques have been nerfed or neglected... The problem, now, is a matter of mindset. ECM boats weren't about much three months ago, so why bother to fit ECCM? Now they are back, there is this (not surprising) resistance to having to adapt... Particularly by the Heavy Interdictor Pilots who suddenly discover their version of the "i-win" infinite scram button suddenly seems to sometimes fail (it's not supposed to do that, right?)... Three months ago, Arazu and Pilgrim were all over the place - swarming around nossing everyone into forum whines... An alt of mine flies one (yes, present tense). Now they have been nerfed and you hardly see any out there. But pilots can still fit them well and use them effectively if they are prepared to focus their training in the right areas and think out of the box. Just as Falcon, Rook and Scorpion pilots who stuck with their ships while they were not "flavor of the month" did. I am sure the Nos boats will be boosted and returned to the front-line - hopefully as race-role-specific ships (like ECM is only useful on Caldari boats). When they do... everyone will have to shake them selves out of their cosy habits (which now is tending to ignore capacitor warfare) to adapt to capacitor combat once again... Capacitor combat. Sensor combat. Sig radius combat. Tracking effectiveness combat. Ewar adds flavor to a game that would otherwise be nothing more than "my tank's bigger than your gank"... - Boost Nos recons back to their old strengths. Just make it so you can't have nos domi's anymore... - Boost target painting by giving it an extra effect over and above simple sig radius. But keep it minmatar specific. - Boost damps on the boats designed to use them. Just don't improve them for their non racial specific ships. This game will get very boring if the whiners get it stripped down to simple armor tank v blasters...
Eclip SUBLIME L.L.C.	Posted - 2008.01.31 02:22:00 - [51] well i rember when ecm wasnt use oh so like 3 month ago and was getting flamed coz it was utter garbage after they reduce the jam strengths. Well im sorrry to say but he jam strengths havent changed since that change. They only changed the cap usage which never was really a problem using best named racial jammers which are cheap anyway. Its FOTM syndrome the specific recons took a 10% hit to effectivness if that. IF you know it or not you were only using one of the bonus's on damps anyways and that was lock range. If you relied ont eh lock time you were mroe then likley dead. They got nerfed as they were that much better then any other ew. all it takes it a little more thort now that if someone running at you in a azaru that you either cloak before they get in target range or you warp away. each ewar ship didnt lose its effectivness they just use a little more thought now which for such powerful ships they should be hader to fly then a tank ad gank BS. Quit ur whining and fly the thing you can do all you could do before you just ahve to load a script. OH noes i have to load something im doomed. get over it. im sick of all the OMG im never flying x recon again they are uselss. no no just useless pilots that think that. hell i think my curse is more dangerous now then it ever was thanks to setup changes. moral fo the story quit whinning how xand y are over powered. get an azaru to damp a falcon with range scripts even form 130km you should break his locka dn compleatly take hi outta the fight. sensor damps are still the long range king of battle sicne they take you out of the fight for the duration not just a jam cycle or 2. ECM doesnt need changing, sensor damps needed changing, tracking disruptors needed a little fix as a curse could take 3 gun ships out of the fight previosuly and now only 1 maybe 2 if you come across amarr or rail setup ships. Use ur brains is combat you would be surprised how much it cna help. *nothing is directed at the OP just the genneral concensous of thoughts towrds the recons now. It is used so much more now as someone saw a fully skilled rook pilot get a lucky jam cycle and jam 2-3 ships out of a fight. -------------------------------------------------- It is not what u are underneath, but what you do that defines you
Tarron Sarek Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.01.31 02:28:00 - [52] Originally by: Westen Maybe they should add a skill that will allow a pilot to raise his or her sensor strength by 10-20%. It may not seem like much at first but when added with the ECCM, the increase would make it a more viable alternative to ECM. Practically every other stat on a ship can be increased through training, why not sensor strength? While it is a reasonable idea at first glance, this would become a mandatory skill and it would widen the performance gap between low SP and high SP chars even more. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
DuPuy Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.01.31 03:37:00 - [53] Edited by: DuPuy on 31/01/2008 03:39:23 Like all specialised roles in Eve, ECM needs a lot of specialist skills trained. As all ECM pilots know, there is no point flying these expensive t2 ships unless you have high-points in ALL of the appropriate skills. Otherwise you die. Quickly. The variety and amount of skills needed are nothing to sneeze at (see below). And, yes, there are some very nice faction mods and implants to help boost your abilities. Just as they are available to boost your opponents... So, to be an effective ECM pilot you need the following (plus all the other skills needed to help fit these ECM ships properly) RECON (x6) (in order to fly the ECM specialist ships - ECM is badly nerfed on any other type): - Covert Ops 4 - Spaceship Command 5 - Electronics Upgrades 5 - Electronics 2 - Engineering 2 - Signature Analysis 5 - Electronics 1 Electronic Warfare: (x2)- Operation of ECM jamming systems. 5% less capacitor need for ECM and ECM Burst systems per skill level. Frequency Modulation: (x3)- Advanced understanding of signal waves. 10% bonus to falloff for ECM, Remote Sensor Dampeners, Tracking Disruptors and Target Painters per skill level. Signal Dispersion: (x5) - Skill at the operation of target jamming equipment. 5% bonus to strength of all ECM jammers per skill level. Long Distance Jamming: (x4) - Skill at the long-range operation of electronic warfare systems. 10% bonus to optimal range of ECM, Remote Sensor Dampers, Tracking Disruptors and Target Painters per skill level. Long Range Targeting: (x2)- Skill at long range targeting. 5% Bonus to targeting range per skill level.
NightmareX Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.31 05:07:00 - [54] Edited by: NightmareX on 31/01/2008 05:07:41 I hope for the love of god that the current ECM drones that are on sisi will NEVER hit TQ. I got permajammed by 4x ECM drones, and i couldn't do anything except for warping out. I just sat there for like 10 mins and was permajammed by ECM drones. Someone even told me that they was permajammed by ECM drones for 20 mins straight. Well i was in a Kronos, but that doesn't mean ECM drones have to permajam me to hell and back. If it's supposed to be like that, then EVERYONE will use ECM drones from the day those drones hits TQ. I really hope that's a bug. CCP, fix my forum portrait FFS
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.31 06:16:00 - [55] Originally by: Conrad Rock Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes ECM and ECCM is fine. ECM only really works on ECM ships and fitting just one ECCM greatly improves your chances to withstand an ECM attack. People usually don't, so they think ECM is to strong. Well, if you don't fit a tank, guns will rip you apart in seconds, but that doesn't make them to powerful. Basically this, I used one med slot eccm and one low slot eccm and solo killed a falcon in my hurricane. Random events do not stand for proof. If you managed to kill a Falcon that was 100-200km away from you in a Hurricane without it warping out, jamming you, whatever, then you killed an idiot. Sensor Dampeners are countered and stopped with a single sensor booster. Tracking disruptors are also countered (not to such an extent as RSDs) by a tracking computer. Putting a single ECCM on a ship (using a valuable midslot that serves no other purpose unlike SBs/TCs) does not do near enough when targeted by any decent ECM pilot. Possible stand-alone solutions: ECM should be stacking nerfed (reasonable, as with all other ewar) ECCM should provide far more sensor strength (to provide a reliable counter) ECCM should provide an additional bonus along sensor strength to make it useful in all situations (like reduced signature radius) and be scripted A fully dedicated Lachesis/Curse using their ewar cannot shut down a single ship that has fitted the counter module. A fully dedicated Falcon can shut down 2-5 ships easily and also operates at a range 4x farther away than any of it's counterparts. A damped ship can lock once it closes the range, a tracking disrupted ship can web it's aggressor. A jammed ship cannot do anything. ECM is too powerful in relation to other ewar because the counter to it does a very poor job of doing so. No stacking nerf + chance based + huge optimal distance. If you say ECCM is fine; actually try fitting it (if you can spare the midslot) against a Falcon/Rook using 2 racials and 1-2 multispecs. You'll be sitting jammed more often than not. Oh, an another problem is that any ship that actually can close the huge distance that Falcons can operate at with speed have terrible sensor strength, do not have the mids to fit ECCM, and will be perma-jammed. It's nigh impossible to tackle a Falcon pilot who is even half awake.
DuPuy Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.01.31 06:42:00 - [56] Edited by: DuPuy on 31/01/2008 06:44:27 Originally by: Ariel Dawndistance. If you say ECCM is fine; actually try fitting it (if you can spare the midslot).[/quote Rock. Paper. Scissors. You're not supposed to be able to fit everything on one ship... You're supposed to tailor your ship to suit your fleet to suit the opponents you will be up against... ECM boats cannot fit armor or shield tank mods. Nerf guns and missiles, please? - Not everyone can fit to counter nos boats - Not everyone can fit to counter sniper boats - Not everyone can fit to counter nano boats - Not everyone can fit to counter damp boats Quote: ECM drones are overpowered (if you can spare the midslot). Yes. They at least need their ECM strength (or perhaps number/type) tied to ECM skills. They are the only useful Ewar drone. This also makes them overpowered.
128th ABC123 Eve Liberation Force Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.31 09:26:00 - [57] ECCM + Tactics Now close the thread and move along. You fit a tank vs DPS? So fit ECCM mods against ECM. Make sure you have a dedicated Damage dealer (or counter ECM ship) with ECCM fitted and a sensor boost. That way you counteract you oponents ecm. An Arazu would work fine too. ECM boats don't have a tank and go pop very easily. It all makes the game and the fights alot more interesting. And to be frank, if you and your whole gang sat there getting jammed, you seriously need to work on your tactics.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.31 10:48:00 - [58] Originally by: DuPuy So, to be an effective ECM pilot you need the following (plus all the other skills needed to help fit these ECM ships properly) RECON (x6) (in order to fly the ECM specialist ships - ECM is badly nerfed on any other type): - Covert Ops 4 - Spaceship Command 5 - Electronics Upgrades 5 - Electronics 2 - Engineering 2 - Signature Analysis 5 - Electronics 1 Electronic Warfare: (x2)- Operation of ECM jamming systems. 5% less capacitor need for ECM and ECM Burst systems per skill level. Frequency Modulation: (x3)- Advanced understanding of signal waves. 10% bonus to falloff for ECM, Remote Sensor Dampeners, Tracking Disruptors and Target Painters per skill level. Signal Dispersion: (x5) - Skill at the operation of target jamming equipment. 5% bonus to strength of all ECM jammers per skill level. Long Distance Jamming: (x4) - Skill at the long-range operation of electronic warfare systems. 10% bonus to optimal range of ECM, Remote Sensor Dampers, Tracking Disruptors and Target Painters per skill level. Long Range Targeting: (x2)- Skill at long range targeting. 5% Bonus to targeting range per skill level. I trained those skills (not the ECM ones) and their equivalent for dampeners and lachesis. It is as skill intensive for EW all recons (but you'll train the minmatar one as a nanoship maybe which is the same skill amount), so I don't see exactly what is your point there. I used a celestis before and yes it was just too powerful, the fact that you damp the range AND the locking time was bad, it was exactly as jamming someone : you can't lock anything, but the range was more limited than the ECM while the succes chance was equal for all ships. So, being 'nearly as jamming' was overpowered... Now, what the dampener does is nothing great, signature resolution dampening is not really useful and range dampening is even with the focus of all your dampeners on a target (see the paralllel, using all multispecs on most ships will be a success), you won't totally disrupt its fighting ability. Also, ECM is the only EW where you can dedicate most of the slots to it. In meds, you will have the jammers and in lows the distorsion amps, there is nothing like distorsion amplifiers for the other EW. Maybe the only thing that is wrong is the distorsion amplifier's actual value? Because you can boost the ECM much more than anything else can be (because having several bonuses from ship - cap use, range, high strenght bonus - and the option to fill lows with modules to boost is causing the imbalance to other EW). -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:26:00 - [59] Edited by: Ulstan on 31/01/2008 19:33:17 Quote: damps have stacking penalty, ecm modules should also have it. ECM modules don't stack in the first place, so of course they don't have a stacking penalty. Quote: Putting a single ECCM on a ship (using a valuable midslot that serves no other purpose unlike SBs/TCs) does not do near enough when targeted by any decent ECM pilot. Enough whining that ECCM doesn't do anything but counter ECM. ECM does nothing unless it works. Not a thing. Sensor dampeners, tracking disruptors, etc, always work. It doesn't matter if your target has a counter equipped or not: the ship you target with those mods is always worse off than if you had not used those mods. This is not true of ECM If your mods fail to jam the target, he suffers not a single ill effect. Not one. This is why ECCM modules don't do anything except prevent ECM jamming. An ECM ship gets no benefit from an ECM modules if he doesn't jam you. Therefore, you get no benefit from your ECCM modules if he doesn't try to jam you. Simple enough. Basically people want their ECM resistances to be free. They want to add it in without having to really sacrifice anything for it. Tough cookies. An ECM boat fills its mediums with ECM modules and its lows with SDA's. It has no tank or DPS whatsoever. ASking to counter that entire dedicated setup with a single module is just silly. ECM modules have received no boost in strength. People are just whining because they don't want to adapt to something they're not used to.
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Ulstan ECM modules have received no boost in strength. People are just whining because they don't want to adapt to something they're not used to. Not to nitpick, but weren't some of the ECM-specific ships given boosts to their ECM ability? Kind of like what damp-ships need to compete?
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.31 21:58:00 - [61] Originally by: Ulstan An ECM boat fills its mediums with ECM modules and its lows with SDA's. It has no tank or DPS whatsoever. ASking to counter that entire dedicated setup with a single module is just silly. ECM modules have received no boost in strength. People are just whining because they don't want to adapt to something they're not used to. Please tell me how to kill/neutralize a ship that you cannot lock which is 200km away and can always bug out and relocate with a cloak. Rooks/Falcons have similar DPS to their other racial recon equivalents, and the same tanking capabilities (and doesn't not having to fit a tank speak something of the ship? there is plenty of room for 1600 plates on the ships, but theyre never fitted). All other ewar ships cannot even effectively neutralize a single ship that has a counter fitted; an ECM ship can take out 2-5 without much difficulty. The COUNTER should COUNTER or at least provide a secondary benefit. tl;dr It is impossible to kill/neutralize ECM ships in small scale engagements flown by someone with half a brain asides from bringing your own ECM. Tacklers are permajammed (even with ECCM) due to their poor base sensor strength, and it sits far far outside drone control/FoF range.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.31 23:50:00 - [62] Try not being 200 km away.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.02.01 02:08:00 - [63] Edited by: Ruciza on 01/02/2008 02:08:33 Originally by: Ariel Dawn Please tell me how to kill/neutralize a ship that you cannot lock which is 200km away and can always bug out and relocate with a cloak. Lachesis comes to mind.
DuPuy Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.02.01 02:52:00 - [64] Edited by: DuPuy on 01/02/2008 02:55:45 Edited by: DuPuy on 01/02/2008 02:54:47 Originally by: Eleana Tomelac I trained those skills (not the ECM ones) and their equivalent for dampeners and lachesis. It is as skill intensive for EW all recons (but you'll train the minmatar one as a nanoship maybe which is the same skill amount), so I don't see exactly what is your point there. [/quote The point, as stated in the opening sentences of my post, was that ECM is ONLY effectively useful on recons. The dampners you trained for can be used effectively on ANY boat able to fit them. Yes, there is significant overlap in EW skills. This does not negate my point that you need higher points in these same skills to make ECM effective on the limited range of boats they work well on... As for Falcon and Rook having comparable DPS to other recons... No. Check their high slots. Subtract one for a cloak on a Falcon. And the Rook lost a high slot (therefore dps reduction) to gain a low slot (to give it ECM strength parity to Falcon). Rook has split role highslots. Note neither has a drone bay.
Bohoba Caldari The Dragons Den	Posted - 2008.02.01 03:02:00 - [65] Gee all this crying again, I am going to have to climb into my riged out falcon and go test this out Have not flown it but once sence it was placed in a chance based system and strength nerf. :) see what my maxed out skills can do :) but sounds like it's up to par with the rest of the recons although I think the RSD nerf was a bit much and not needed really. Windows VistaÖ Ultimate x64-based PC Gigabyte X38-DQ6 Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Extreme CPU Q6850 Memory 4,093.69 MB 2X Crossfire ASUS EAH3870/G/HTDI/512M Radeon HD 3870 512MB
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.01 05:48:00 - [66] After considering counter-arguments, I find myself taking the wrong viewpoint towards the balance of ECCM (mainly in situations where mid-slots are crucial and other people don't web/disrupt for you) and is not a good place to argue balance from. I'd rather not be like the Amarrian-mob mentality sweeping these forums, so sorry. That said, ECCM having a secondary property to provide use outside of anti-ECM seems like a reasonable proposal to increase their utility.
DuPuy Scrap Iron Flotilla Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2008.02.01 07:09:00 - [67] Yes, ECCM could benefit from a secondary ability: Perhaps, like signal druptors, it could act to make you more difficult to be probed - or give you a smaller sig radius. Gristle for the mill.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.01 11:28:00 - [68] Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Originally by: Ulstan ECM modules have received no boost in strength. People are just whining because they don't want to adapt to something they're not used to. Not to nitpick, but weren't some of the ECM-specific ships given boosts to their ECM ability? Kind of like what damp-ships need to compete? Ulstan doesn't want his I-win button nerfed. All sorts of buffs have happened to ECM: Falcon was given a huge boost to ECM strength bonus. Rigs boost ECM a TON. Cap use of ECM was cut in HALF. Etc., etc., etc.. One Falcon can absolutely ruin an opposing small gang. From 240km away. I know this because I do it all the time. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.01 11:31:00 - [69] I'd like a boost to ECCM. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.01 11:33:00 - [70] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Originally by: Ulstan ECM modules have received no boost in strength. People are just whining because they don't want to adapt to something they're not used to. Not to nitpick, but weren't some of the ECM-specific ships given boosts to their ECM ability? Kind of like what damp-ships need to compete? Ulstan doesn't want his I-win button nerfed. All sorts of buffs have happened to ECM: Falcon was given a huge boost to ECM strength bonus. Rigs boost ECM a TON. Cap use of ECM was cut in HALF. Etc., etc., etc.. One Falcon can absolutely ruin an opposing small gang. From 240km away. I know this because I do it all the time. And some people have done it to you in the past? ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Dinakheron	Posted - 2008.02.01 11:34:00 - [71] As other had said, if anything needs to be done, it only has to be done just in ECCM module. Either make it more powerfull (so it is even harder to jam ECCM fitted ship, but it still should be possible)or give it second ability (to make people use them more). Then if you dont fit ECCM, its your own fault if you get jammed...
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.01 11:37:00 - [72] Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin Originally by: Ulstan ECM modules have received no boost in strength. People are just whining because they don't want to adapt to something they're not used to. Not to nitpick, but weren't some of the ECM-specific ships given boosts to their ECM ability? Kind of like what damp-ships need to compete? Ulstan doesn't want his I-win button nerfed. All sorts of buffs have happened to ECM: Falcon was given a huge boost to ECM strength bonus. Rigs boost ECM a TON. Cap use of ECM was cut in HALF. Etc., etc., etc.. One Falcon can absolutely ruin an opposing small gang. From 240km away. I know this because I do it all the time. And some people have done it to you in the past? Yeah, I remember engaging Lord Chaos knowing full well his Falcon alt was sitting off the gate cloaked, but I had forgot that the Falcon was buffed to the same strength as the Rook after Trinity. I thought ECCM would matter. It didn't. We all died. I didn't make the same mistake twice. Next time LC came back with his Geddon, his Falcon, and three buddies with a Kronos, Rook and Rapier. My Falcon kept them all jammed for pretty much the whole duration of the fight. It wasn't even a contest. I'm sure LC will come back with more EW ships next time. And we'll have N+1 EW ships to counter him and his friends. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
whoyoulookingat Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.02.01 12:31:00 - [73] Edited by: whoyoulookingat on 01/02/2008 12:35:40 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Yeah, I remember engaging Lord Chaos knowing full well his Falcon alt was sitting off the gate cloaked, but I had forgot that the Falcon was buffed to the same strength as the Rook after Trinity. I thought ECCM would matter. It didn't. We all died. I didn't make the same mistake twice. Next time LC came back with his Geddon, his Falcon, and three buddies with a Kronos, Rook and Rapier. My Falcon kept them all jammed for pretty much the whole duration of the fight. It wasn't even a contest. I'm sure LC will come back with more EW ships next time. And we'll have N+1 EW ships to counter him and his friends. And this is where the problem is.. He jammed you with one, you jam him with one, he comes back with 2, then you do, etc, etc! ECM as a whole is okay (barr a few mods) but that's not really the issue here. It's the Falcon (aka FOTM). The problem is it just does it's job too damn effective.. Every PvP scrap I've been in has been fun until one or two of these puppies join in! You know that the minute they uncloak you're permajammed and there's sod all you can do about it. Possible solutions: Hard cap the range of Falcons from 200km+ down to 80km (no more carebear hiding ) Adjust the way ECM works (100% effect @ start of cycle dropping by 5% each second) Only one ECM lock per target ship (100% chance of scram on 1st lock, 50% chance after) Change the ECM burst to work only on the ship('s) that has you targeted and increase the range of the mod to 50km optimal (skills to buff the range further) Remove the chance base from it (that's idea 2 and 3 out the window) and return it back to skill based which in turn should also fix the ECCM mods Discuss... _____________________________________ Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.01 15:51:00 - [74] Quote: Not to nitpick, but weren't some of the ECM-specific ships given boosts to their ECM ability? Kind of like what damp-ships need to compete? None of them were raised above 20%, which was the previous highest bonus. That said, the gallente recons do indeed need some boosting. That doesn't mean that ECM is overpowered, however. Quote: Please tell me how to kill/neutralize a ship that you cannot lock which is 200km away and can always bug out and relocate with a cloak. If it's 1v1, warp away. He's not going to hurt you. If it's a fleet fight, send someone fast at him, send drones at him, or have a sniper blow him out of the sky. Quote: Rooks/Falcons have similar DPS to their other racial recon equivalents Wrong. Don't be absurd. People soloed (pre nerf) in the lachesis/arazu because they have drones and damage bonuses. No one solos in a falcon because it has no dps. Rook gets 0 drones and one damage bonus (to kinetic missiles) Lachesis gets drones, and damage bonuses to all medium hybrid turrets and all medium launchers. Quote: and the same tanking capabilities Again, wrong. Amarr/Gallente recons armor tank, their ewar goes in the midslot. Rook/falcon shield tank, their e war goes in both the mid and the low slots. The other recons still have pretty crappy tanks, but saying it's 'the same' is just false.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.01 16:02:00 - [75] Edited by: Ulstan on 01/02/2008 16:03:26 Edited by: Ulstan on 01/02/2008 16:02:39 Quote: All sorts of buffs have happened to ECM: Falcon was given a huge boost to ECM strength bonus. Making it on par with the rook. Was the rook's ECM strength overpowered before the patch? No. Therefore neither is the falcon now. You're just seeing more of it now that everyone and their mother isn't fitting RSD's. The ability of the falcon to jam and then cloak could well be problematic, but if that was removed, you'd still have the rook jamming you with the exact same strength a falcon does now. Do you think that would be overpowered? Quote: Rigs boost ECM a TON As they did pre-trinity. We're discussing trinity only changes to ECM which suddenly catapulted it to this new massively overpowered state. Quote: Cap use of ECM was cut in HALF. Irrelevent to jamming strength. You've come up with a single boost to a single ECM ship in terms of jamming power - which was intended only to make the falcon as good a jammer as the rook. And this somehow made ECM and unstoppable perma jam marathon?The recons never ran out of cap when using ECM anyway. Quote: One Falcon can absolutely ruin an opposing small gang. From 240km away. I know this because I do it all the time. Excellent. That's kind of the point of e-war ships. If they don't disable multiple enemy ships when not appropriately countered there is no point in having them. I'd like to see the lachesis/arazu boosted so they can do this as well. It sure beats everyone bringing all tank 'n gank. Quote: I thought ECCM would matter. It didn't. It does. You just didn't bring enough of it. A single ECCM module makes you twice as hard to jam. That's pretty significant. It's not wtfomgimmunity to ECM, which is what most people seem to want. Obviously you countering six med slots, three low slots, and two rigs with a single med slot would be somewhat overpowered, no?
PAcifisti Paisti Paisti Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.01 20:44:00 - [76] Note: this post is highly concentrated around recons, as caldari recons seems to be the main cause for this new ECM whine. Perhaps you should remember that ECM ships only do ECM and nothing else. Sure you can fit guns and get 140 dps out of rook and like 60 out of falcon but... That way you'll be way within 100 km to be in range of your weaponry. And you can forget about being that "unbalanced permajammer" since that requires 6-7 jammers with all lows sacrificed for ECM power and rigslots for ECM range. Remember that All other recons can do something else besides their Ewar except the caldari one. Amarr have their Nos bonuses, Gallente have Disruptor/scrambler range bonus and matar have that godly web range bonus (not the forget their speed)... Now what Caldari recons have? ECM ECM ECM and a bit more ECM. I'm not sure if the boost on jammer strenght on T1 ships (10% -> 15% per level) was needed but the falcon's bonus boost from 10% -> 20% does seem a bit racidal move. I can't find any reason to fly a rook anymore since Falcon has the same strenght now and can use the cov-ops cloak (ideal tool for ECM-ship). In any case, do you really feel that ECM should be "equal" to other ewars in the field? All ecm ships are totally dedicated to jamming and specially the caldari recons when compared to other races. Don't you think they deserve something "better" since thats the only and only thing they can do? What bonuses would you give them instead if ECM was to be nerfed "in par" with other Ewars? Or would you simply throw the last few good things caldari has to the huge pile of "useless caldari PVP-ships"? You can never understand the Pain
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.01 21:35:00 - [77] Originally by: Ulstan -deranged crap- IMO yes, the Rook was overpowered. Example: if pre-Trinity, Lord Chaos would have shown up with a Rook, I simply wouldn't have engaged him at all, because of it's peak jam strength. I made a mistake because I didn't remember that the Falcon was buffed to the same level as the Rook, and I got jammed to hell, ECCM or no. ECCM doesn't work well enough. If you have a 90% chance of being jammed and you increase your sensor strength by 100%, you reduce your chance of being jammed to 80%? Filling every single mid and low slot that I have with ECCM to keep from getting jammed is unacceptable. One best named ECCM in a mid should reduce my overall chance of being jammed to an absolute limit of 5% per ship applied to jamming my ship. My own falcons can keep ECCM fit ships jammed enough of the time (50%+) to basically keep them out of the fight. By the time the jam targets are able to reacquire a lock, their gang mates are already dead and my gang mates are now locking them up and killing them off, just doing clean up. No ship should be able to disable 5+ ships solo from over 200+km away with impunity. The bottom line: ECM ships are able to disable too many ships, too effectively, at too great a range, too consistently, and ECCM is too ineffective. Players need to be confident that ECCM will protect them, not only for actual use, but as the possibility of a deterrent against the use of ECM, so that other players don't even bring ECM to the fight. Trinity didn't overpower ECM, it was overpowered long before Trinity. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:50:00 - [78] Edited by: Ulstan on 01/02/2008 22:52:05 Originally by: Bellum Eternus -whines about ECM, demands for invulnerability to ECM with one module, request to remove ECM from game- Cry more. Apprently it makes you very sad to realize you can't just fit for tank and gank and F1-F8 your way through everything. Fortunately, CCP realizes that adding effective Ewar to the game makes it a much richer experience. I'd be happier of Gallente EWAR was as effective as caldari EWAR, but overall, I'd have to say they definitely have the right idea.
Xenomorphea Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:15:00 - [79] Originally by: Raxxius Maelstrom Personally I think ECM should only break locks and not also prevent relock. It is far too effective compared to the other forms of Ewar. And I agree that every squad really needs a jammership to stand a chance if the other team has one. This. Cheers, Xeno
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.02 02:18:00 - [80] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 01/02/2008 22:52:05 Originally by: Bellum Eternus -whines about ECM, demands for invulnerability to ECM with one module, request to remove ECM from game- Cry more. Apprently it makes you very sad to realize you can't just fit for tank and gank and F1-F8 your way through everything. Fortunately, CCP realizes that adding effective Ewar to the game makes it a much richer experience. I'd be happier of Gallente EWAR was as effective as caldari EWAR, but overall, I'd have to say they definitely have the right idea. Hardly. I'm just sick of having 2-3 Falcons handy before I undock to go PVP. EW needs to be a niche support role that allows for extremely specialized tactics in specialized situations. It shouldn't be the dominant tactic and the first thing everyone uses, every single fight. The only people who don't use Falcons in fights at the moment are the ones who are currently training for them but can't fly them yet. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.02.02 02:27:00 - [81] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: One Falcon can absolutely ruin an opposing small gang. From 240km away. I know this because I do it all the time. Excellent. That's kind of the point of e-war ships. If they don't disable multiple enemy ships when not appropriately countered there is no point in having them. I'd like to see the lachesis/arazu boosted so they can do this as well. It sure beats everyone bringing all tank 'n gank. Yeah, and the only recon ship that can actually do this is the falcon. If you don't know this then you've probably never flown anything other than a falcon.

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